Coronavirus Super Thread ( merged )

[The Real Maroonblood]

23 minutes ago, frankblack said:

I will go with this too as I post from the boozer.... 

 

👍

[Don Dan]

Scottish numbers: 5 June 2021

Summary

• 860 new cases of COVID-19 reported
• 27,436 new tests for COVID-19 that reported results
  • 3.4% of these were positive
• 1 new reported death(s) of people who have tested positive
• 3,345,842 people have received the first dose of the Covid vaccination and 2,202,547 have received their second dose

 

[redjambo]

Here are today's trend stats. No hospital or ICU patient figures at weekends. Many thanks to @Boy Daniel for posting today's summary.

 

			7-day per-100,000 cases
Council Area	Tier	WHO	Today	Yesterday			3 Jun	2 Jun	1 Jun	31 May	30 May	...	1 May
Scotland			89	84	+5		77	71	68	65	62	...	22
Clackmannanshire	2	4	169	126	+43		97	78	54	56	70	...	14
Dundee City	2	4	169	149	+20		127	111	108	103	100	...	13
South Ayrshire	2	4	169	166	+3		148	135	119	105	83	...	25
Glasgow City	2	4	153	148	+5		136	131	135	127	127	...	33
Edinburgh City	2	4	151	138	+13		127	114	95	88	79	...	27
East Renfrewshire	2	3	143	154	-11		162	171	171	174	154	...	24
Angus	1	3	132	107	+25		59	40	40	33	29	...	7
Renfrewshire	2	3	123	134	-11		146	142	152	161	154	...	20
East Ayrshire	2	3	122	112	+10		98	77	70	61	56	...	45
Midlothian	2	3	121	100	+21		88	85	88	89	90	...	10
East Dunbartonshire	2	3	99	101	-2		93	83	75	69	72	...	51
South Lanarkshire	2	3	85	79	+6		81	74	79	77	74	...	18
Stirling	2	3	85	81	+4		74	69	66	70	66	...	11
North Lanarkshire	2	3	81	83	-2		86	86	83	81	71	...	40
North Ayrshire	2	3	78	81	-3		83	66	59	65	63	...	17
Perth & Kinross	1	3	74	57	+17		47	39	41	39	39	...	22
West Lothian	1	3	63	55	+8		45	34	35	33	33	...	26
West Dunbartonshire	1	3	61	58	+3		44	33	31	30	24	...	28
East Lothian	1	3	60	55	+5		45	29	27	21	21	...	5
Falkirk	1	3	54	52	+2		53	50	44	44	43	...	23
Fife	1	3	51	49	+2		44	42	44	42	41	...	32
Highland	1 / 0	2	37	45	-8		42	36	33	29	27	...	9
Aberdeen City	1	2	28	24	+4		18	18	14	17	17	...	13
Inverclyde	1	2	24	31	-7		30	32	31	33	30	...	15
Scottish Borders	1	2	23	18	+5		9	9	8	5	5	...	6
Moray	1	1	17	14	+3		14	9	11	13	14	...	65
Shetland Islands	0	1	17	13	+4		4	0	0	0	0	...	0
Aberdeenshire	1	1	12	12	0		11	8	9	9	9	...	8
Argyll & Bute	1 / 0	1	12	15	-3		19	17	15	14	14	...	7
Dumfries & Galloway	1	1	12	9	+3		7	8	9	7	6	...	19
Orkney Islands	0	1	9	9	0		4	4	0	0	0	...	0
Na h-Eileanan Siar	0	1	7	7	0		4	4	4	0	0	...	0
7-day averages			Today	Yesterday			3 Jun	2 Jun	1 Jun	31 May	30 May	...	1 May
Tests			22720	22305	+415		22159	21710	22055	22090	22065	...	18484
Cases			694	654	+40		604	551	533	510	484	...	171
Positivity rate %			3.3	3.1	+0.2		2.9	2.7	2.6	2.5	2.4	...	1.1
Deaths			1.3	1.1	+0.2		1.1	0.6	0.4	0.7	0.6	...	1.3
All Vaccinations			47745	47074	+671		46620	46128	46135	45895	45612	...	45346
1st Dose			18582	18565	+17		18715	18647	18418	18456	17927	...	6677
2nd Dose			29163	28509	+654		27905	27481	27717	27439	27685	...	38669

Edited June 5, 2021 by redjambo

[ri Alban]

2 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

I don't disagree with any of that but I wonder how previous generations managed without nursery schools, toddler groups and "softplays" ( I have to admit I had to look up what the last named was). By playing pre-school (that is up to age 5) only with the children of neighbours and relatives was I deprived? Perhaps but on the other hand my later development of social skills was not marred by computer games and other barriers to interaction with real people.

Everyone knew their neighbours back then.

[Beni]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, fancy a brew said:

 

 

[frankblack]

58 minutes ago, jonesy said:

In your rush to get the pub, you're literally not understanding my point   

 

Keep the oldies/vulnerable under lockdown, vaccinate the workers and young 'uns first, and then the virus is less, er, virulent when the oldies head out again and receive their vaccinations and/or head back to the bingo. 

 

Nope.  Still nonsense.

[Francis Albert]

39 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Everyone knew their neighbours back then.

That's true.

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

I'm guessing that around 90% of folk who read your posts on here would take issue with that, FA.

 

 

This.

 

 

 Better than my usual rating then.

[Francis Albert]

3 hours ago, Salad Fingers said:

 

I went to nursery and toddler groups when I was wee so they're not exactly a new fad. 

Amost everything is a new fad at my age.

[The Real Maroonblood]

58 minutes ago, redjambo said:

Here are today's trend stats. No hospital or ICU patient figures at weekends. Many thanks to @Boy Daniel for posting today's summary.

 

			7-day per-100,000 cases
Council Area	Tier	WHO	Today	Yesterday			3 Jun	2 Jun	1 Jun	31 May	30 May	...	1 May
Scotland			89	84	+5		77	71	68	65	62	...	22
Clackmannanshire	2	4	169	126	+43		97	78	54	56	70	...	14
Dundee City	2	4	169	149	+20		127	111	108	103	100	...	13
South Ayrshire	2	4	169	166	+3		148	135	119	105	83	...	25
Glasgow City	2	4	153	148	+5		136	131	135	127	127	...	33
Edinburgh City	2	4	151	138	+13		127	114	95	88	79	...	27
East Renfrewshire	2	3	143	154	-11		162	171	171	174	154	...	24
Angus	1	3	132	107	+25		59	40	40	33	29	...	7
Renfrewshire	2	3	123	134	-11		146	142	152	161	154	...	20
East Ayrshire	2	3	122	112	+10		98	77	70	61	56	...	45
Midlothian	2	3	121	100	+21		88	85	88	89	90	...	10
East Dunbartonshire	2	3	99	101	-2		93	83	75	69	72	...	51
South Lanarkshire	2	3	85	79	+6		81	74	79	77	74	...	18
Stirling	2	3	85	81	+4		74	69	66	70	66	...	11
North Lanarkshire	2	3	81	83	-2		86	86	83	81	71	...	40
North Ayrshire	2	3	78	81	-3		83	66	59	65	63	...	17
Perth & Kinross	1	3	74	57	+17		47	39	41	39	39	...	22
West Lothian	1	3	63	55	+8		45	34	35	33	33	...	26
West Dunbartonshire	1	3	61	58	+3		44	33	31	30	24	...	28
East Lothian	1	3	60	55	+5		45	29	27	21	21	...	5
Falkirk	1	3	54	52	+2		53	50	44	44	43	...	23
Fife	1	3	51	49	+2		44	42	44	42	41	...	32
Highland	1 / 0	2	37	45	-8		42	36	33	29	27	...	9
Aberdeen City	1	2	28	24	+4		18	18	14	17	17	...	13
Inverclyde	1	2	24	31	-7		30	32	31	33	30	...	15
Scottish Borders	1	2	23	18	+5		9	9	8	5	5	...	6
Moray	1	1	17	14	+3		14	9	11	13	14	...	65
Shetland Islands	0	1	17	13	+4		4	0	0	0	0	...	0
Aberdeenshire	1	1	12	12	0		11	8	9	9	9	...	8
Argyll & Bute	1 / 0	1	12	15	-3		19	17	15	14	14	...	7
Dumfries & Galloway	1	1	12	9	+3		7	8	9	7	6	...	19
Orkney Islands	0	1	9	9	0		4	4	0	0	0	...	0
Na h-Eileanan Siar	0	1	7	7	0		4	4	4	0	0	...	0
7-day averages			Today	Yesterday			3 Jun	2 Jun	1 Jun	31 May	30 May	...	1 May
Tests			22720	22305	+415		22159	21710	22055	22090	22065	...	18484
Cases			694	654	+40		604	551	533	510	484	...	171
Positivity rate %			3.3	3.1	+0.2		2.9	2.7	2.6	2.5	2.4	...	1.1
Deaths			1.3	1.1	+0.2		1.1	0.6	0.4	0.7	0.6	...	1.3
All Vaccinations			47745	47074	+671		46620	46128	46135	45895	45612	...	45346
1st Dose			18582	18565	+17		18715	18647	18418	18456	17927	...	6677
2nd Dose			29163	28509	+654		27905	27481	27717	27439	27685	...	38669

👍

[Enzo Chiefo]

Bolton has come through their "3rd wave" of infections, caused by the apparently more transmissible Indian variant. Infections are falling but even at their peak, hospital admissions were at a quarter of the level in Nov or Jan. The link between cases and serious illness has been seen to be broken, thanks to the world leading UK vaccine programme. Hopefully, the link between politicians/scientists and "case" obsession is also fractured soon so that Freedom Day can take place in a couple of weeks. 

[frankblack]

43 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Well, since you put your point across so well, I guess that's me convinced. 😸😹🙀

 

Enjoy yer beers...

 

Your right-wing nonsense sounded like drivel from a fascist party.

[TheOak88]

Is there any realistic possibility that Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee could end up going back into Tier 3 if case numbers continue on current trend?

[frankblack]

3 minutes ago, TheOak88 said:

Is there any realistic possibility that Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee could end up going back into Tier 3 if case numbers continue on current trend?

 

The issue is where the cases are.  If its unvaccinated then time to introduce vaccine passports for hospitality etc.

 

Those that refuse the vaccine can stay at home. 👍

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Eh? Sorry, man, I'm not sure how prioritising the health and safety of the vulnerable while simultaneously ensuring the economic viability is fascist. It's actually the policy which has allowed the communist PRC to reopen internally much faster than the UK, if we're splitting hairs.

 

Your train of thought runs as straight and true as a drunk octopus on roller-skates that's fresh off a waltzer at Burntisland shows.

 

I've not had nearly enough alcohol to try and make sense of the drivel you posted.

 

You now quote communist examples as relevant to the UK.  Oh dear.

 

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 hour ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Bolton has come through their "3rd wave" of infections, caused by the apparently more transmissible Indian variant. Infections are falling but even at their peak, hospital admissions were at a quarter of the level in Nov or Jan. The link between cases and serious illness has been seen to be broken, thanks to the world leading UK vaccine programme. Hopefully, the link between politicians/scientists and "case" obsession is also fractured soon so that Freedom Day can take place in a couple of weeks. 

We overtaken Israel then?

[TheOak88]

15 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

The issue is where the cases are.  If its unvaccinated then time to introduce vaccine passports for hospitality etc.

 

Those that refuse the vaccine can stay at home. 👍

 

I suppose I was meaning a change in Tiers in the short term (in the next month or so). It’s not realistic to implement vaccine passports in the short terms as not everyone has been offered their vaccine as yet. 

[Brighton Jambo]

9 hours ago, hmfcbilly said:

I've followed his posts this past year and has made a lot of valid points and exploited some of the many inconsistencies with regards to the tiered system and also the opening up of certain indoor type entertainments whilst softplays have remained closed.  Perfect example...Ryze next door to him (indoor trampoline centre) was allowed to reopen last year but softplays have remained shut throughout 🤷‍♂️

 

Also, as a side note...as a father of a 2 year old (who was 10 months when original lockdown started) I desperately want to see softplays and toddler groups reopen. Some of them may well never do sadly, but having seen first hand how the lack of social interaction has affected toddlers (not just my son but friends kids too) they are desperately needed IMO.  Plenty is made of adults mental health (which I don't disagree with) but getting babies and toddlers in to good social situations fron a very young age helps build the foundations to developing their social skills as they grow.  My 6 year old went to a different toddler group each day with her child minder and I would say it definitely helped bring her on and make her the wee person she is now. 

Well said

[theshed]

21 minutes ago, TheOak88 said:

Is there any realistic possibility that Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee could end up going back into Tier 3 if case numbers continue on current trend?

They better no go up a tier. 
Get your vaccine to get your life back they said, had mines so waiting patiently on things returning to normal

 

If people don’t want to have the vaccine then fair enough but let the people who have had the vaccine get on with their life’s 

 

If England open up fully at the end of the month then surely no even sturgeon would have the balls to put us up a tier after the euros if England opened up 

 

[redjambo]

25 minutes ago, TheOak88 said:

Is there any realistic possibility that Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee could end up going back into Tier 3 if case numbers continue on current trend?

 

I doubt it. I reckon that the SG has given up on the idea of moving councils back up tiers. It appears to have gone in all or nothing.

[Gizmo]

21 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Your right-wing nonsense sounded like drivel from a fascist party.

15 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Eh? Sorry, man, I'm not sure how prioritising the health and safety of the vulnerable while simultaneously ensuring the economic viability is fascist. It's actually the policy which has allowed the communist PRC to reopen internally much faster than the UK, if we're splitting hairs.

 

Your train of thought runs as straight and true as a drunk octopus on roller-skates that's fresh off a waltzer at Burntisland shows.

From your posts it seems you hold a viewpoint:

"I'm not at risk from this so I choose to disregard restrictions, ignore lockdown and may not take the 'untested' vaccine anyway".

Correct me if that's innacurate, but I think it's a fair summation. Doesn't wanting the Chinese approach to vaccinate workers and younger people first, run contrary to the above?

Some debate on the economics, morality and ethics of each approach which sides on the save as many lives first approach albeit I'd say there's no definitive conclusion reached (yet):

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/doing-the-touchy-math-on-who-should-get-a-covid-vaccine-first/
https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/6/eabf1374
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/health/covid-vaccine-first.html 

 

1 minute ago, theshed said:

They better no go up a tier. 
Get your vaccine to get your life back they said, had mines so waiting patiently on things returning to normal

 

If people don’t want to have the vaccine then fair enough but let the people who have had the vaccine get on with their life’s 

 

If England open up fully at the end of the month then surely no even sturgeon would have the balls to put us up a tier after the euros if England opened up 

 

If furlough ends with "freedom day" in England, then Sturgeon will have no choice, really. 

[DB-14]

Just had my vaccine today at the Younger Building at the Gyle. Extremely well organised.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

57 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Bolton has come through their "3rd wave" of infections, caused by the apparently more transmissible Indian variant. Infections are falling but even at their peak, hospital admissions were at a quarter of the level in Nov or Jan. The link between cases and serious illness has been seen to be broken, thanks to the world leading UK vaccine programme. Hopefully, the link between politicians/scientists and "case" obsession is also fractured soon so that Freedom Day can take place in a couple of weeks. 

 

Chris Hopson, the head of NHS providers was saying the exact same thing this morning, that the chain between cases, serious illness, hospitalisations and deaths has been broken.  In Bolton the highest number of people admitted to hospital with the so called Indian/Delta variant was 50, whereas it was 150 back in January/February presumably with the Kent variant and 170 back in November.  Furthermore the ages of those hospitalised this time around were much younger and they also required less critical care as they weren't as sick as older people had been previously.  All this means that hospitals were not put under anywhere near the same amount of pressure, that they had been previously.

 

It is clear from this data that the vaccines are doing their job and are working.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/indian-variant-uk-covid-delta-hospital-numbers-b938908.html

 

 

 

[Enzo Chiefo]

43 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

We overtaken Israel then?

Yes,  don't tell me you've forgotten the pen shoot out last Nov😮. Yeees sir,  I can  boogie 🕺

[Konrad von Carstein]

Just now, Enzo Chiefo said:

Yes,  don't tell me you've forgotten the pen shoot out last Nov😮. Yeees sir,  I can  boogie 🕺

😲🤣🤣

[redjambo]

This may be of interest (from https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations - you can add other countries on that page):

 

[redjambo]

And from the same page (the reason I looked at the page in the first place following on from KvC's question above):

 

[redjambo]

And finally:

 

[Boab]

I suppose the more relevant stat, red, is we’re now over 51% of the adult population fully jabbed. I take it those tables are the whole population ?

[Ulysses]

50 minutes ago, jonesy said:

 

Thanks for the links - had a quick look at the NYT article and it arrives at the same ambiguity.

 

I choose to disregard restrictions and lockdowns (to the extent that it is possible) because I do not feel it is a government's role to impose arbitrary, if well-intentioned, restrictions on the movement and gathering of an informed and educated population. I'll be taking the vaccine, against my better judgement, so that I can hopefully accompany my family to visit their family members abroad and resume working abroad in the future. 

 

The story about Bill Shakespeare, bless him, dying from other causes is, in a detached, cold-hearted way, a good example of how the age-based vaccination programme is flawed. Old people die, just as old plants, penguins and piranhas do. It's part of life. When you have limited resources, you channel them, IMO, towards those where the result will bring the widest benefit. I'm not saying that older people are 'non-viable' or that once they get to a certain age we cast them adrift. We support them the best we can with the resources available while ensuring no damage is done to their offspring. There has, however, been a line of argument that young people time on their side to recover their education/jobs/mental health which have all suffered due to the hokey-cokey lockdown palaver from both WM and HR. This is ignorant of the fundamental idea - borne out across cultures and civilisations - that older generations are there to pass the baton on to the next. Preserving life at all costs - even potentially causing suffering to the lives of others - has never, AFAIA, been a normal course of action in our society, at least. And yes, I'm well aware of the Confucian principles of devotion to one's parents. However, Confucious was an old fart who deviated from the Tao!

 

 

It's funny how in a couple of decades from now you'll think the complete opposite, and you'll tell anyone who'll listen that it's a sign of the maturity and wisdom gifted to you by the passing of the years.

 

[redjambo]

17 minutes ago, Boab said:

I suppose the more relevant stat, red, is we’re now over 51% of the adult population fully jabbed. I take it those tables are the whole population ?

 

Yes, those are whole population graphs, Boab. I must admit that I still haven't seen any conclusive evidence/argumentation as to whether vaccine coverage should be of the entire population or just the adult population (or where the cut-off should be in deciding adulthood), although in saying that, the recent experiment in Serrana, Brazil (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/06/brazilian-town-experiment-shows-mass-vaccination-can-wipe-out-covid-19) produced a required figure of 75% full vaccination of the adult population in order to bring the virus under control, possibly linked to achieving herd immunity.

Edited June 5, 2021 by redjambo

[Sharpie]

Had my second Pfizer vaccination yesterday. I was listening to a local radio show and the host was saying he was going for his second dose that day.  He is considerably younger than I so I wondered why I had not been notified. I called the health authority and explained what I had heard, the lady immediately took my particulars, then told me I was late as my age group had been notified a week before and had been done. She then checked further and disclosed that the error had been at their end, it was now 8.00am, she advised me if I could make it she had arranged an appointment for 9.00am I took it and got the job done. I was impressed with the service shown me, and the nurse doing the injection was so nice asked if my wife had hers, and I explained she was gone, the girl then sat with me for twenty minutes giving me a nice talk with lots of sympathy and understanding. You could not have afforded to buy the service I got, in addition as advised when my shoulder got a bit sore last night I took a Tylenol. Had a great sleep and just finished with no problems or pain my Saturday morning housework. When you meet especially, good nice people life is not too bad at all.

[Unknown user]

11 minutes ago, Sharpie said:

Had my second Pfizer vaccination yesterday. I was listening to a local radio show and the host was saying he was going for his second dose that day.  He is considerably younger than I so I wondered why I had not been notified. I called the health authority and explained what I had heard, the lady immediately took my particulars, then told me I was late as my age group had been notified a week before and had been done. She then checked further and disclosed that the error had been at their end, it was now 8.00am, she advised me if I could make it she had arranged an appointment for 9.00am I took it and got the job done. I was impressed with the service shown me, and the nurse doing the injection was so nice asked if my wife had hers, and I explained she was gone, the girl then sat with me for twenty minutes giving me a nice talk with lots of sympathy and understanding. You could not have afforded to buy the service I got, in addition as advised when my shoulder got a bit sore last night I took a Tylenol. Had a great sleep and just finished with no problems or pain my Saturday morning housework. When you meet especially, good nice people life is not too bad at all.

They were great with me too

[Nucky Thompson]

6 minutes ago, Sharpie said:

Had my second Pfizer vaccination yesterday. I was listening to a local radio show and the host was saying he was going for his second dose that day.  He is considerably younger than I so I wondered why I had not been notified. I called the health authority and explained what I had heard, the lady immediately took my particulars, then told me I was late as my age group had been notified a week before and had been done. She then checked further and disclosed that the error had been at their end, it was now 8.00am, she advised me if I could make it she had arranged an appointment for 9.00am I took it and got the job done. I was impressed with the service shown me, and the nurse doing the injection was so nice asked if my wife had hers, and I explained she was gone, the girl then sat with me for twenty minutes giving me a nice talk with lots of sympathy and understanding. You could not have afforded to buy the service I got, in addition as advised when my shoulder got a bit sore last night I took a Tylenol. Had a great sleep and just finished with no problems or pain my Saturday morning housework. When you meet especially, good nice people life is not too bad at all.

Good to hear Sharpie 

 

I always make time to chat to my elderly customers and have a cup of tea with them. I go to them every fortnight and some if them won't see anyone else in between.

 

[Gizmo]

1 hour ago, jonesy said:

 

Thanks for the links - had a quick look at the NYT article and it arrives at the same ambiguity.

 

I choose to disregard restrictions and lockdowns (to the extent that it is possible) because I do not feel it is a government's role to impose arbitrary, if well-intentioned, restrictions on the movement and gathering of an informed and educated population. I'll be taking the vaccine, against my better judgement, so that I can hopefully accompany my family to visit their family members abroad and resume working abroad in the future. 

 

The story about Bill Shakespeare, bless him, dying from other causes is, in a detached, cold-hearted way, a good example of how the age-based vaccination programme is flawed. Old people die, just as old plants, penguins and piranhas do. It's part of life. When you have limited resources, you channel them, IMO, towards those where the result will bring the widest benefit. I'm not saying that older people are 'non-viable' or that once they get to a certain age we cast them adrift. We support them the best we can with the resources available while ensuring no damage is done to their offspring. There has, however, been a line of argument that young people time on their side to recover their education/jobs/mental health which have all suffered due to the hokey-cokey lockdown palaver from both WM and HR. This is ignorant of the fundamental idea - borne out across cultures and civilisations - that older generations are there to pass the baton on to the next. Preserving life at all costs - even potentially causing suffering to the lives of others - has never, AFAIA, been a normal course of action in our society, at least. And yes, I'm well aware of the Confucian principles of devotion to one's parents. However, Confucious was an old fart who deviated from the Tao!

There's a lot to unpack there but I still don't get how your libertarian stance is compatible with allocating the resources to the least at risk? A risk you've deemed negligble, to boot. 

With regard to the "detached, cold-hearted way" - I'll never look at human beings in that manner, sorry. Sure, I have that luxury as I'm not a politician but even so, this is a bit Logan's Run isn't it? Where does it stop - well the NHS has only X # beds, X scan capacity, X # doctors so, sorry Bob, you're 80* now so off you pop with your duff hip/pneumonia/dementia, and no it doesn't matter that you paid in all your life as a part of the capitalist machine and contributed to wider society. Yes, the older population have lived most of their lives, and that makes every single day they have left, incredibly precious.  

Are you really happy to normalise that ideal - that some people are less worthy than others? That's a slippery slope imo, one that demagogues like Duncan-Smith would eagerly grease when faced with a budgeting issue.

*78...75...70...

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, jonesy said:

 

Thanks for the links - had a quick look at the NYT article and it arrives at the same ambiguity.

 

I choose to disregard restrictions and lockdowns (to the extent that it is possible) because I do not feel it is a government's role to impose arbitrary, if well-intentioned, restrictions on the movement and gathering of an informed and educated population. I'll be taking the vaccine, against my better judgement, so that I can hopefully accompany my family to visit their family members abroad and resume working abroad in the future. 

 

The story about Bill Shakespeare, bless him, dying from other causes is, in a detached, cold-hearted way, a good example of how the age-based vaccination programme is flawed. Old people die, just as old plants, penguins and piranhas do. It's part of life. When you have limited resources, you channel them, IMO, towards those where the result will bring the widest benefit. I'm not saying that older people are 'non-viable' or that once they get to a certain age we cast them adrift. We support them the best we can with the resources available while ensuring no damage is done to their offspring. There has, however, been a line of argument that young people time on their side to recover their education/jobs/mental health which have all suffered due to the hokey-cokey lockdown palaver from both WM and HR. This is ignorant of the fundamental idea - borne out across cultures and civilisations - that older generations are there to pass the baton on to the next. Preserving life at all costs - even potentially causing suffering to the lives of others - has never, AFAIA, been a normal course of action in our society, at least. And yes, I'm well aware of the Confucian principles of devotion to one's parents. However, Confucious was an old fart who deviated from the Tao!

It is astonishing that what you say is in any way controversial. Investment in public spending has for decades if not longer been based on a value of life calculation in which age is the major factor. A life of an 80 year old is valued much less than say a 10 year old. By government's of every persuasion.

The logic breaks down a bit when it comes to abortion.but that is another matter.

[Boab]

1 hour ago, redjambo said:

 

Yes, those are whole population graphs, Boab. I must admit that I still haven't seen any conclusive evidence/argumentation as to whether vaccine coverage should be of the entire population or just the adult population (or where the cut-off should be in deciding adulthood), although in saying that, the recent experiment in Serrana, Brazil (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/06/brazilian-town-experiment-shows-mass-vaccination-can-wipe-out-covid-19) produced a required figure of 75% full vaccination of the adult population in order to bring the virus under control, possibly linked to achieving herd immunity.

👍

[redjambo]

Just to throw my tuppenceworth in, the idea of isolating the at-risk and elderly while vaccinating the rest might possibly have worked if the former could be *properly* isolated like on a desert island or the moon or similar. Even with the lockdowns that we had and people taking precautions, the virus still managed to spread to and kill a great number of the at-risk and elderly. It still managed to get in to care homes where you would have thought we would have had decent protocols to avoid it doing so. Same goes for hospitals and prisons where it also got into. In the real world in which we live, we can't fully and properly isolate such a huge number of folk as those who make up the at-risk and elderly categories, and in the time that it would have taken to vaccinate all the rest, a lot of people would have died.

[Boab]

3 minutes ago, redjambo said:

Just to throw my tuppenceworth in, the idea of isolating the at-risk and elderly while vaccinating the rest might possibly have worked if the former could be *properly* isolated like on a desert island or the moon or similar. Even with the lockdowns that we had and people taking precautions, the virus still managed to spread to and kill a great number of the at-risk and elderly. It still managed to get in to care homes where you would have thought we would have had decent protocols to avoid it doing so. Same goes for hospitals and prisons where it also got into. In the real world in which we live, we can't fully and properly isolate such a huge number of folk as those who make up the at-risk and elderly categories, and in the time that it would have taken to vaccinate all the rest, a lot of people would have died.

If nothing else, red, this has been a subject where people haven’t stuck rigorously to one viewpoint and not shifted. I was a strict follower of the rules, my kids called me constable COVID 😂, but now I can see all views regarding moving out of this.

[redjambo]

32 minutes ago, Boab said:

If nothing else, red, this has been a subject where people haven’t stuck rigorously to one viewpoint and not shifted. I was a strict follower of the rules, my kids called me constable COVID 😂, but now I can see all views regarding moving out of this.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by redjambo

[Boab]

3 minutes ago, redjambo said:

Just to throw my tuppenceworth in, the idea of isolating the at-risk and elderly while vaccinating the rest might possibly have worked if the former could be *properly* isolated like on a desert island or the moon or similar. Even with the lockdowns that we had and people taking precautions, the virus still managed to spread to and kill a great number of the at-risk and elderly. It still managed to get in to care homes where you would have thought we would have had decent protocols to avoid it doing so. Same goes for hospitals and prisons where it also got into. In the real world in which we live, we can't fully and properly isolate such a huge number of folk as those who make up the at-risk and elderly categories, and in the time that it would have taken to vaccinate all the rest, a lot of people would have died.

If nothing else, red, this has been a subject where people haven’t stuck rigorously to one viewpoint and not shifted. I was a strict follower of the rules, my kids called me constable COVID 😂, but now I can see all views regarding moving out of this.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

48 minutes ago, redjambo said:

Just to throw my tuppenceworth in, the idea of isolating the at-risk and elderly while vaccinating the rest might possibly have worked if the former could be *properly* isolated like on a desert island or the moon or similar. Even with the lockdowns that we had and people taking precautions, the virus still managed to spread to and kill a great number of the at-risk and elderly. It still managed to get in to care homes where you would have thought we would have had decent protocols to avoid it doing so. Same goes for hospitals and prisons where it also got into. In the real world in which we live, we can't fully and properly isolate such a huge number of folk as those who make up the at-risk and elderly categories, and in the time that it would have taken to vaccinate all the rest, a lot of people would have died.

 

Even Australia with it's strict lockdowns and completely closed borders has had the odd case cropping up here and there.

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, Boab said:

If nothing else, red, this has been a subject where people haven’t stuck rigorously to one viewpoint and not shifted. I was a strict follower of the rules, my kids called me constable COVID 😂, but now I can see all views regarding moving out of this.

 

It's déja-vu all over again, Boo Boo.

[redjambo]

Just now, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Even Australia with it's strict lockdowns and completely closed borders has had the odd case cropping up here and there.

 

Indeed.

[hmfcbilly]

8 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

I don't disagree with any of that but I wonder how previous generations managed without nursery schools, toddler groups and "softplays" ( I have to admit I had to look up what the last named was). By playing pre-school (that is up to age 5) only with the children of neighbours and relatives was I deprived? Perhaps but on the other hand my later development of social skills was not marred by computer games and other barriers to interaction with real people.

Re your 1st comment that I've highlighted in bold...ive no idea if you were deprived and I'm not sure how old you are but I'm 40 and I still went to pre school toddler groups before starting school nursery.  My mother would definitely say it did me the world of good getting out and mixing with other kids even at the age of 2 and 3 in these settings. Admittedly, softplay wasn't a thing when I was pre-school age (certainly not common as they are now anyway) but having used one with my older child and seen the benefits and joy it brings to both her and other young kids, I think the value of what they bring to both children (who generally have fun) and parents who get to see their kids have fun and possibly even enjoy having a coffee/catch up with a friend or chat with another parent (when they could be isolated at home instead) is massively underestimated. 

 

The 1st answer kind of leads to your 2nd point about computer games affecting social skills. For me, the earlier we teach kids about social interaction and play, the better chance we have of keeping them off screens for prolonged periods as they get older. Whether we like it or not, we live in a massively digital dependent age. For me it's like most things in life, find a balance and most things can be enjoyed equally whether it's playing computer games, having a drink etc. If it's controlled and you're not dependent or addicted, ultimately I don't see the harm.  

[hmfcbilly]

2 hours ago, redjambo said:

This may be of interest (from https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations - you can add other countries on that page):

 

Thing that stands out for me is the apprent resistance from the French....34%. Be interesting to see how it all pans out in the next couple of years for the UK in comparison the France if those figures end up being accurate 

[Ulysses]

4 minutes ago, jonesy said:

In a couple of decades from now I'll be pan breid. An elderly and frail Nicola Sturgeon will mark the moment, claiming it as the last ever Covid death.

 

Like this only older?

 

 

 

[Governor Tarkin]

4 hours ago, jonesy said:

 

Thanks for the links - had a quick look at the NYT article and it arrives at the same ambiguity.

 

I choose to disregard restrictions and lockdowns (to the extent that it is possible) because I do not feel it is a government's role to impose arbitrary, if well-intentioned, restrictions on the movement and gathering of an informed and educated population. I'll be taking the vaccine, against my better judgement, so that I can hopefully accompany my family to visit their family members abroad and resume working abroad in the future. 

 

The story about Bill Shakespeare, bless him, dying from other causes is, in a detached, cold-hearted way, a good example of how the age-based vaccination programme is flawed. Old people die, just as old plants, penguins and piranhas do. It's part of life. When you have limited resources, you channel them, IMO, towards those where the result will bring the widest benefit. I'm not saying that older people are 'non-viable' or that once they get to a certain age we cast them adrift. We support them the best we can with the resources available while ensuring no damage is done to their offspring. There has, however, been a line of argument that young people time on their side to recover their education/jobs/mental health which have all suffered due to the hokey-cokey lockdown palaver from both WM and HR. This is ignorant of the fundamental idea - borne out across cultures and civilisations - that older generations are there to pass the baton on to the next. Preserving life at all costs - even potentially causing suffering to the lives of others - has never, AFAIA, been a normal course of action in our society, at least. And yes, I'm well aware of the Confucian principles of devotion to one's parents. However, Confucious was an old fart who deviated from the Tao!

 

Jonesy Bentham Mill  

[Enzo Chiefo]

5 hours ago, jonesy said:

I think you qualify for re-education through labour for your use of Hate Speech, highlighted above. You'll get your 'Bairns not Bombs' rear-window sticker upon successful completion of your term. 

🇮🇳

 

---

 

Let's be honest, Enzo, Freedom Day occurred sometime in April/May 2020 when those of a critical thinking persuasion realised that CV19 wasn't the extinction event it was billed as  

Haha. Yes, you're right Jonesy. I can expect a summons from St.Andrews House imminently. 

I'll take the opportunity to quiz them about the newly discovered Sherpa Tenzing variant that, according to my contacts in the Nepalese govt, doesn't exist. Just when "the science" runs out of ammo and their TV appearances come under threat, along comes a variant "of concern" that allows them to plea for "a few weeks delay" just so the gains we have made are not "reversed ".