End of season Craig Levein poll

[Bad Religion]

21 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

Enzo used to work with a certain prominent poster from Porty, as he said himself almost a decade ago on here, on a thread where he was saying he wouldn't be back until Romanov leaves and is replaced by a stable owner.

 

 

I am in no doubt whatsoever that he is a Hearts fan.

 

I don’t doubt either of them are Hearts fans either. I’ve just never seen anyone vouch for them as claimed by Lawson, especially my mate Mitch. 

 

Thanks for for the link. Some people have been fighting on the internet a long time. How have they got the energy. 

[oh ah grantona]

2 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

50/50 is hardly a ringing endorsment but it is a lot better than some of the members of this board were suggesting. He will be here next season so might as well get behind him for now. 

It's pretty much the same as last season for me I wanted him gone. If he won the Scottish cup I'd still want him gone I simply don't like his football when the chips are down and I can't see it changing. 

 

He will be here next season and if we get the 4 quality players we need then let's get behind him and see what happens. If it isn't working in December it has to be a total removal. 

 

The cup competitions in terms of stages reached are good but the level of opposition we faced to reach them stages I'd expect us to have reached the stages.

League performance simply unacceptable

 

The worrying for me is a lot of Hearts fans are happy with where we are at and that's scary for a club our size in Scottish terms 

[Beast Boy]

7 minutes ago, martoon said:

I would however concede that perhaps the pro-Levein punters at games/in the pub are less vocal. Lets say, for a moment, there is a 50/50 split in a post match pub. It wouldn't be easy to state a case for CL when loud, disgruntled voices are bemoaning yet another pitiful performance and result. That could get out of hand.

 

That is exactly how it is, I think.

 

4 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

50/50 is hardly a ringing endorsment but it is a lot better than some of the members of this board were suggesting. He will be here next season so might as well get behind him for now. 

 

And this ^^

[Absolute Scenes]

45 minutes ago, martoon said:

 

The glee is there in black and white.

 

As is the rubbishing of other opinions. 

 

How does this thread/poll "kill all their arguements". Does it somehow wipe all the negative opinions I hear about Levein at games/in the pub/family/friends? Or is it, as has been suggested, all in my imagination?

 

The pro-Levein punters are pouncing on a, give or take, 50/50 vote and proclaiming it as a victory and some sort of vindication that they are right and the case is closed.

 

It kills the arguments that "majority" of hearts fans want levein out. Its pretty even. And these posters are adamant they speak for Hearts overall, which they don't - they speak for the little agendas they've built up all season. Silent when we are doing well, growling and spitting when we are doing bad.

 

How do you differentiate an opinion and someone vomiting bile?

[martoon]

43 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

Sorry Martoon, I don’t agree. I think it’s only natural that people will feel a certain amount of catharsis at the poll results. The dissenting voices that you refer to were pedalling the myth of 99%/the vast majority of fans/all the support wanting Levein out, as part of their argument. They spoke loudest and most often and created an echo chamber in here that did not reflect the experiences of many of the rest of us. Many on here, myself included, have tried to point out that their estimate did not tally with what we have garnered by speaking to other supporters in real life. The echo chamber was unrelenting though. I can totally understand why some are taking some enjoyment out of those echos being muted somewhat. Every thread on here just about was turned in to a Levein out thread by the same few folk. It was mind-numbing. If no other good comes from this poll, then at least it’s opened JKB up to having more than one solitary topic once again.

 

As for the results themselves. I think many managers the world over probably divide fan opinion 50/50 for large parts of their tenures.

 

Anyway. No beef with you, mate. Respect your opinion and always take your thoughts on board when I read your posts.

 

 

I appreciate your response and it's tone, bud. Much better to keep exchanges civil and friendly even if the opinion is different. 

 

I have no problem with pro-Levein posters. They obviously can see something I don't and I hope they're/you're proved right. I want to be wrong.

 

I did, however, resent the implication, by some, that what I was hearing at games/in the pub was in my imagination. I'm just not that creative. 

[Notts1874]

3 minutes ago, oh ah grantona said:

It's pretty much the same as last season for me I wanted him gone. If he won the Scottish cup I'd still want him gone I simply don't like his football when the chips are down and I can't see it changing. 

 

He will be here next season and if we get the 4 quality players we need then let's get behind him and see what happens. If it isn't working in December it has to be a total removal. 

 

The cup competitions in terms of stages reached are good but the level of opposition we faced to reach them stages I'd expect us to have reached the stages.

League performance simply unacceptable

 

The worrying for me is a lot of Hearts fans are happy with where we are at and that's scary for a club our size in Scottish terms 

All fair points. I would actually move the date for a review forward to October after the first round of fixtures and a few League Cup fixtures. 

 

Just because people don't bang on about it all day every day on the internet doesn't mean they are happy with things on the park though.

 

I would suggest that other things may change within the coaching staff before Levein.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Notts1874

[Nookie Bear]

At the end of the day, only one person's vote really matters when it comes to deciding Levein's future.

 

And he will let Ann Budge know what it is.

[Bull's-eye]

[martoon]

1 minute ago, Absolute Scenes said:

 

It kills the arguments that "majority" of hearts fans want levein out. Its pretty even. And these posters are adamant they speak for Hearts overall, which they don't - they speak for the little agendas they've built up all season. Silent when we are doing well, growling and spitting when we are doing bad.

 

How do you differentiate an opinion and someone vomiting bile?

 

I did try to address the "majority" claim in a post above. Not saying the theory is valid, just a possibility.

[Notts1874]

1 minute ago, Nookie Bear said:

At the end of the day, only one person's vote really matters when it comes to deciding Levein's future.

 

And he will let Ann Budge know what it is.

The Gorgie Dancer???

[martoon]

1 minute ago, Nookie Bear said:

At the end of the day, only one person's vote really matters when it comes to deciding Levein's future.

 

And he will let Ann Budge know what it is.

 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

38 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

No, but it's good practice for when the fans take over

Fair point well made!

[Bazzas right boot]

So we've went from claims of  "the majority", "everyone I know", "90%", "most" Hearts fans wanting CL gone to the majority actually preferring to give him another season. 

 

Classic stuff. 

 

Whatever happens we need a good start tho, and hopefully a few astute signings will lift us. 

 

The loudest CL out folk won't even go to the games either next season, couldn't make it up tbh. 

 

[JamboAl]

2 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

Yes. It'll be the most mindboggling stupidity if Hearts don't make a change. Chickens will be coming home to roost next season if we don't.

 

Oh, and by the way: Mitch and Enzo are about a billion times better Hearts fans than I'll ever be - and they're far better Hearts fans than most on this thread too. For the crime of wanting the best for the club, and for telling the truth, they come under personal attack. It's just pathetic.

Sounds like a case of "everybody's out of step except oor Jock".  You don't get your own way so it's mindboggling stupidity.

1. Just ignore the poll - it didn't give the result you wanted.  Let's try something else later.2.  It's about fans' opinions - not whether some are better fans than others.

2. It has nothing to do with who is a better fan than who

3  Every true Hearts fans wants the best for the club, not just those who want CL out.  Personally, I would be happy to see CL out if we could GUARANTEE any replacement would be better and there would be little financial cost attached to the transition.  That's not likely to happen.

4  On the subject of personal attacks, you seem to try to do exactly that but just not directly personal.

 

FWIW. a lot of the frustration IMO has arisen because we didn't finish better than the previous season and did finish below Hibs.  That was because we didn't play good enough football largely due to the nature and severity of injuries as well as crazy reffing decisions against us.  It seems there is an immense sense of entitlement in all of this.

PS - Remember, we were top of the league before the injury crisis hit!

[Mr Elwood P]

1 hour ago, oh ah grantona said:

It's pretty much the same as last season for me I wanted him gone. If he won the Scottish cup I'd still want him gone I simply don't like his football when the chips are down and I can't see it changing. 

 

He will be here next season and if we get the 4 quality players we need then let's get behind him and see what happens. If it isn't working in December it has to be a total removal. 

 

The cup competitions in terms of stages reached are good but the level of opposition we faced to reach them stages I'd expect us to have reached the stages.

League performance simply unacceptable

 

The worrying for me is a lot of Hearts fans are happy with where we are at and that's scary for a club our size in Scottish terms 

 

How would you define an 8th - 10th place finish?

 

Nobody is happy with 6th, many just have the objectivity to factor in mitigating circumstances. I'd actually take a poor league season and another Scottish Cup final next year. The ideal scenario is 2nd - 4th in the league and to reach the semi final or final in both cup competitions, with a win being the pinnacle. 

[Absolute Scenes]

1 hour ago, martoon said:

 

I did try to address the "majority" claim in a post above. Not saying the theory is valid, just a possibility.

 

Fair enough mate

[davemclaren]

2 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

How would you define an 8th - 10th place finish?

 

Nobody is happy with 6th, many just have the objectivity to factor in mitigating circumstances. I'd actually take a poor league season and another Scottish Cup final next year. The ideal scenario is 2nd - 4th in the league and to reach the semi final or final in both cup competitions, with a win being the pinnacle. 

Europe, by whatever means, should be our target every season. Good cup runs are a nice bonus. 

[Beast Boy]

1 hour ago, martoon said:

 

I appreciate your response and it's tone, bud. Much better to keep exchanges civil and friendly even if the opinion is different. 

 

I have no problem with pro-Levein posters. They obviously can see something I don't and I hope they're/you're proved right. I want to be wrong.

 

I did, however, resent the implication, by some, that what I was hearing at games/in the pub was in my imagination. I'm just not that creative. 

 

All fair enough, mate. Now...

 

signings... ?

[Mr Elwood P]

Just now, davemclaren said:

Europe, by whatever means, should be our target every season. Good cup runs are a nice bonus. 

 

Would you rather win the League Cup or qualify for the Europa League? It is very hard for a team like Hearts or Aberdeen to get into the Europa League group stages now so the most likely outcome is a couple of qualifiers with the possibility of a glamour tie which could end in glorious failure (Liverpool) or annihilation (Spurs). It will be interesting to see how Rangers get on this season in the Europa League qualifiers, they had a very kind draw last season. 

[Beast Boy]

The League Flag

Champions League group stages

The Scottish Cup

The League Cup

Europa League group stages

 

Thats how I rank the possible achievements for a Hearts team. Unfortunately the first two are getting harder and harder each season, as the financial gap dictates. Thirteen years ago the second one was a possibility. The first one is always just too long a race for us over a season, it seems. Everything else is there for the taking if we put a good team together. Keep that good team together and build it up a level year on year, and we can start thinking about the first one again in a few years. 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2019 by Icon of Symmetry

[davemclaren]

10 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

Would you rather win the League Cup or qualify for the Europa League? It is very hard for a team like Hearts or Aberdeen to get into the Europa League group stages now so the most likely outcome is a couple of qualifiers with the possibility of a glamour tie which could end in glorious failure (Liverpool) or annihilation (Spurs). It will be interesting to see how Rangers get on this season in the Europa League qualifiers, they had a very kind draw last season. 

I would rather win a cup but cups depend on many more random factors than league position. 

[Haken]

1 hour ago, Notts1874 said:

50/50 is hardly a ringing endorsment but it is a lot better than some of the members of this board were suggesting. He will be here next season so might as well get behind him for now. 

That kind of sums it up nicely.  At least until the plane arrives.

[Mr Elwood P]

6 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

The League Flag

Champions League group stages

The Scottish Cup

The League Cup

Europa League group stages

 

Thats how I rank the possible achievements for a Hearts team. Unfortunately the first two are getting harder and harder each season, as the financial gap dictates. Thirteen years ago the second one was a possibility. The first one is always just too long a race for us over a season, it seems. Everything else is there for the taking if we put a good team together. Keep that good team together and build it up a level year on year, and we can start thinking about the first one again in a few years. 

 

 

 

interested to know how we are getting into the Champions League group stages without winning the league first? 

[Fxxx the SPFL]

42 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Sounds like a case of "everybody's out of step except oor Jock".  You don't get your own way so it's mindboggling stupidity.

1. Just ignore the poll - it didn't give the result you wanted.  Let's try something else later.2.  It's about fans' opinions - not whether some are better fans than others.

2. It has nothing to do with who is a better fan than who

3  Every true Hearts fans wants the best for the club, not just those who want CL out.  Personally, I would be happy to see CL out if we could GUARANTEE any replacement would be better and there would be little financial cost attached to the transition.  That's not likely to happen.

4  On the subject of personal attacks, you seem to try to do exactly that but just not directly personal.

 

FWIW. a lot of the frustration IMO has arisen because we didn't finish better than the previous season and did finish below Hibs.  That was because we didn't play good enough football largely due to the nature and severity of injuries as well as crazy reffing decisions against us.  It seems there is an immense sense of entitlement in all of this.

PS - Remember, we were top of the league before the injury crisis hit!

can't argue with that good post

[Beast Boy]

11 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

interested to know how we are getting into the Champions League group stages without winning the league first? 

 

I was using the last fifteen years of campaigns as a reference to be honest. There was a time when second nabbed a qualifier spot. I would rank getting to the group stages from second spot as less important to me, than winning the league. If we ever get to a point where the coefficient rises enough to regain that place, and it coincides with us having a good enough team to nab it, then it'd be a fantastic achievement to make the groups and to me personally, I'd rank it as a greater achievement than winning either cup.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

17 minutes ago, Ray has bus pass hooray said:

can't argue with that good post

Except by the same logic, Killie would never have appointed Clarke, just as one example.

[Mr Elwood P]

5 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

I was using the last fifteen years of campaigns as a reference to be honest. There was a time when second nabbed a qualifier spot. I would rank getting to the group stages from second spot as less important to me, than winning the league. If we ever get to a point where the coefficient rises enough to regain that place, and it coincides with us having a good enough team to nab it, then it'd be a fantastic achievement to make the groups and to me personally, I'd rank it as a greater achievement than winning either cup.

 

Fair. I think we are in more danger of losing our one Champions League route than regaining the 2nd qualifying spot.

[Jambo-Fox]

25 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

interested to know how we are getting into the Champions League group stages without winning the league first? 

Win the Europa League!

[Byyy The Light]

Where do people stand on the cost trade off of getting rid of Levein and his team?

 

Would they rather see him gone (along with all the coaches) and keep more or less the same squad for next season?

 

Personally I'm on the fence on that one.  I don't think we're getting the best out of the squad we've got but at the same time I think I'd rather add a few quality players to what we've got than spunk our budget on paying people off.

 

 

 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

40 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

interested to know how we are getting into the Champions League group stages without winning the league first? 

 

 

We could get another space, like we did before. 

 

Unlikely, but  possible. 

Edited June 4, 2019 by Olly Lee's left boot

[JamboAl]

20 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Except by the same logic, Killie would never have appointed Clarke, just as one example.

Could you explain what actually means?

[Beast Boy]

20 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

Fair. I think we are in more danger of losing our one Champions League route than regaining the 2nd qualifying spot.

 

Totally agree, unfortunately.

[redjambo]

One of the problems with this poll is that we don't know how non-Hearts interlopers on JKB voted and how therefore they may have skewed the results.

 

I suggest that we start a new poll asking only those who actually support Hibs or other teams to tell us how they voted so that we can adjust this poll accordingly.

 

That will sort it out.

[Mr Elwood P]

3 minutes ago, Olly Lee's left boot said:

 

 

We could get another space, like we did before. 

 

Unlikely, but  possible. 

 

I liked the win the Europa League response better ...

[Bazzas right boot]

Just now, Mr Elwood P said:

 

I liked the win the Europa League response better ...

 

Tbf, if we do that then Scotland will get the second Ucl spot soon after. 

 

Be right after after Scotland win the wc, rangers get 55, hibs report accurate crowds, Aberdeen have thier new staduim and the CL out threads have stopped on here. 

 

 

 

 

[oh ah grantona]

1 hour ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

How would you define an 8th - 10th place finish?

 

Nobody is happy with 6th, many just have the objectivity to factor in mitigating circumstances. I'd actually take a poor league season and another Scottish Cup final next year. The ideal scenario is 2nd - 4th in the league and to reach the semi final or final in both cup competitions, with a win being the pinnacle. 

anything lower than 4th is unacceptable and id be disappointed with 4th also. i will accept that Aberdeen recently have had bigger playing budget but we have 4th biggest and we should always be aiming to punch above that, we havent for so so long now.

 

Cup final & semi finals are only good for bank balance if you come away a loser it means nothing to me (especially with the loser euro spot Gone)

 

like i said going deep in cups is good for budgets and the likes but what we made from being Scottish cup finalist in terms of hard cash is not a great deal and expect a 3rd place finish to draw in far more income.

 

That results in europe and a ticket to the big bucks yes its difficult for us but we have seen plenty nobodies from Europe kick on and for the league to grow we need all scottish clubs to do that. For the 20/21 season we rose 5 or 6 places in Euro coeff to 15 thats down to Rangers & Celtic, we need that again but also from Aberdeen & Killie.

 

This is a massive season for us, IMO the brakes will be applied to Aberdeen (stadium redevolpment must have an impact at some point) Killie will fall away. I think the battle for 3rd will be more for us & Hibs

[Pasquale for King]

I don’t think the poll can really be described as showing a true reflection of supporters views, 1046 votes isn’t even that high a percentage of JKB members. It does indicate a clear split in the fan base though, I think that’s always been there between people who demand more as opposed to those who want it.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

2 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

I don’t think the poll can really be described as showing a true reflection of supporters views, 1046 votes isn’t even that high a percentage of JKB members. It does indicate a clear split in the fan base though, I think that’s always been there between people who demand more as opposed to those who want it.

If you're saying it isn't a true reflection, why are you agreeing with the result's inference?

[Pasquale for King]

Just now, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

If you're saying it isn't a true reflection, why are you agreeing with the result's inference?

I’m saying it’s indicates it, not scientific is it? The fans I know want him out but I don’t speak to all of them.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

4 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

I’m saying it’s indicates it, not scientific is it? The fans I know want him out but I don’t speak to all of them.

I'm not claiming it is scientific but that's because there isn't enough available info to compare how representative JKB is of the fanbase and also to what extent the self-selection voting mechanism introduces bias. However, there is also a significant possibility the vote is representative.

[martoon]

1 hour ago, Absolute Scenes said:

 

Fair enough mate

 

1 hour ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

All fair enough, mate. Now...

 

signings... ?

 

[Pasquale for King]

2 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

I'm not claiming it is scientific but that's because there isn't enough available info to compare how representative JKB is of the fanbase and also to what extent the self-selection voting mechanism introduces bias. However, there is also a significant possibility the vote is representative.

Mibbes aye mibbes naw , it could show that folk that thought it was only a handful of roasters on here wanted him out or that 99% of fans want him out were wrong . . . . . probably.

[Pants Shaton]

Aw ma mates an me want Leveen oot.

 

LMG!

[JamboAl]

11 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

I'm not claiming it is scientific but that's because there isn't enough available info to compare how representative JKB is of the fanbase and also to what extent the self-selection voting mechanism introduces bias. However, there is also a significant possibility the vote is representative.

So, what was the point of starting a poll?

[Alex Kintner]

 

3 hours ago, oh ah grantona said:

It's pretty much the same as last season for me I wanted him gone. If he won the Scottish cup I'd still want him gone I simply don't like his football when the chips are down and I can't see it changing. 

 

He will be here next season and if we get the 4 quality players we need then let's get behind him and see what happens. If it isn't working in December it has to be a total removal. 

 

The cup competitions in terms of stages reached are good but the level of opposition we faced to reach them stages I'd expect us to have reached the stages.

League performance simply unacceptable

 

The worrying for me is a lot of Hearts fans are happy with where we are at and that's scary for a club our size in Scottish terms 

 

I don’t think anybody is “happy” with where things are currently or how this season is went. We all want better for our club. The decision for folk is do they think better can happen under the current managerial team and we’re split 50/50 on that.

 

For me, and a lot of people it seems, the cup final restored some much needed belief and hope. Prior to the final I would have voted yes but I’ve got that feeling in my water now. What my water tells me is that something special may be about to happen and we’ll never know unless we stick with Levein. 

 

Either way, half of us will be wrong and I’m sure the vast majority of those voting yes will quite happily be proved wrong. Most of them will still be there each week supporting the team despite wanting change and for that they have my full respect.

[graygo]

59 minutes ago, oh ah grantona said:

anything lower than 4th is unacceptable and id be disappointed with 4th also. i will accept that Aberdeen recently have had bigger playing budget but we have 4th biggest and we should always be aiming to punch above that, we havent for so so long now.

 

Cup final & semi finals are only good for bank balance if you come away a loser it means nothing to me (especially with the loser euro spot Gone)

 

like i said going deep in cups is good for budgets and the likes but what we made from being Scottish cup finalist in terms of hard cash is not a great deal and expect a 3rd place finish to draw in far more income.

 

That results in europe and a ticket to the big bucks yes its difficult for us but we have seen plenty nobodies from Europe kick on and for the league to grow we need all scottish clubs to do that. For the 20/21 season we rose 5 or 6 places in Euro coeff to 15 thats down to Rangers & Celtic, we need that again but also from Aberdeen & Killie.

 

This is a massive season for us, IMO the brakes will be applied to Aberdeen (stadium redevolpment must have an impact at some point) Killie will fall away. I think the battle for 3rd will be more for us & Hibs

 

The difference between 3rd and 6th is £500k, no way is that far more than getting to a cup final is worth.

 

Edit:  A wee bit of research shows I might be wrong. Certainly the prize money for winning the cup is shit but you would need to look at gate receipts and tv money for a true picture and I can't be arsed.

Edited June 4, 2019 by graygo

[martoon]

5 minutes ago, To Be Frank said:

 

 

I don’t think anybody is “happy” with where things are currently or how this season is went. We all want better for our club. The decision for folk is do they think better can happen under the current managerial team and we’re split 50/50 on that.

 

For me, and a lot of people it seems, the cup final restored some much needed belief and hope. Prior to the final I would have voted yes but I’ve got that feeling in my water now. What my water tells me is that something special may be about to happen and we’ll never know unless we stick with Levein. 

 

Either way, half of us will be wrong and I’m sure the vast majority of those voting yes will quite happily be proved wrong. Most of them will still be there each week supporting the team despite wanting change and for that they have my full respect.

 

A very good post, Frank.

 

The Cup final performance was encouraging and probably has changed the minds of some. 

 

I still have my misgivings but will be chuffed to be proved wrong. 

[oh ah grantona]

1 hour ago, graygo said:

 

The difference between 3rd and 6th is £500k, no way is that far more than getting to a cup final is worth.

 

Edit:  A wee bit of research shows I might be wrong. Certainly the prize money for winning the cup is shit but you would need to look at gate receipts and tv money for a true picture and I can't be arsed.

Scottish cup is now lowest prize money competition available to us. Even the TV fee has been reduced to boost prize funds (no idea how much it is exactly as hard to find) TV money has went from £80k per match to £40k per match again that might be more with new premier BBC deal.

 

A 3rd place finish would net us 500k more plus more walk ups than a 6th place would so more match day income and the icing on cake Europe think Ur looking at another 200k easy 

 

So a 3rd place finish imo would net 250/500k plus more than losing finalist also if we were 3rd that 10.5 k season ticket announcement would have been 14k 

 

I'd say winning a cup is same as 3rd 

 

Roll on next season with mega improvement required

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

I don’t think the poll can really be described as showing a true reflection of supporters views, 1046 votes isn’t even that high a percentage of JKB members. It does indicate a clear split in the fan base though, I think that’s always been there between people who demand more as opposed to those who want it.

 

Genuine question, can you give an example of a fan base that “demanded more” and got it as opposed to fans who want more and support their club to get it? More of the latter than former I think.

 

There have been some successful oustings of owners but that’s different as the club’s whole future is at stake.

 

The only club recently that I can think of that listened to their fans when it came the manager position was Arsenal and that hasn’t exactly worked out from what I’ve read.

 

[Beast Boy]

1 minute ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Genuine question, can you give an example of a fan base that “demanded more” and got it as opposed to fans who want more and support their club to get it? More of the latter than former I think.

 

There have been some successful oustings of owners but that’s different as the club’s whole future is at stake.

 

The only club recently that I can think of that listened to their fans when it came the manager position was Arsenal and that hasn’t exactly worked out from what I’ve read.

 

 

Agree totally with the first sentence. There seems to be a belief that "expecting" or "demanding" something as supporters, somehow translates in to success.