Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Savage Vince]

1 hour ago, NANOJAMBO said:

For the last time, and let's not forget why we got to this apparently trivial point.

 

You started off by saying water was privatised because government (aka the state ) didn't have the money to fix the problems and denied it was done to finance tax cuts. 

 

So here we go , in 1989 Thatcher privatised water (in England, but NOT Scotland ) but as has been pointed out to you , she also sold off,  inter alia , BT, Britsh Gas to raise funds for much needed tax cuts.  Argue all you like, that is a proven fact.

And as also pointed out to you by me & others, It also fitted her "small government" agenda and had nothing to do with  "the state " having "no money", as you put it. The state having "no money" argument  is completely false as I'll demonstrate below. 

 

Your point is proven fallacious because in Scotland, water continued to be in publc hands for SIXTEEN years after Thatcher privatised it in England. As I have shown  you (but which you labelled "conspiracy theories") , Scottish water is 100% owned by the Scot gov and Scottish water is financed through its own revenues and "long term government loans". So, for SIXTEEN years after privatisation in England, Scotland financed its water services with government loans - which you claim Thatcher couldn't afford to do for England. 

 

SIXTEEN years after the 1989 privatisation in England , Scotland allowed private sector competition  in the water "market" in a very limited and specific way and for a 4 year period only- I am assuming they won this business through a tender process*. If so, that is not privatisation. (for which I've given you two definitions - and awarding a short term contract on commercial grounds doesn't meet that criteria.   *Maybe you can confirm - I've asked you before but you never answered. 

 

So in short, you're nitpicking over "privatisation" because that's all you have left after  your nonsense about Thatcher was shown to be wrong and  your nonsense about Thatcher not having the money to pay for the works required is wrong (cos either Westminster gov or Scot gov was still financing it in Scotland 16 years after privatisation in England). 

 

And now I'm putting your insulting , time wasting arse on ignore. 

 

Always hugely pleasing to see Enzo get his arse handed to him on a big fat platter. 😊

[NANOJAMBO]

27 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said:

[Alex Kintner]

39 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Unsure why people are trying to Score points About Brexit .? It’s rather a mooted argument . Everyone knew it was gonna to be an epic disaster of gigantic proportions and it’s now evident that it is . So it’s not exactly point scoring as such . More of “ I Told you so “ 

Everyone apart from the 17 million people who voted for it 🤷🏻‍♂️

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, Alex Kintner said:

Everyone apart from the 17 million people who voted for it 🤷🏻‍♂️

They knew but still threw caution to the wind . Silly really . 

[Beni]

2 hours ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

I have now added Morrisons supermarket chain to my list of boycotted companies (Wetherspoons was the first). Take a look at the labelling on their chickens! What a country we have become. “Seasoned with Non-EU salt and pepper”. WTAF. 

 

 

 

I don't know if they sell it separately, but non-EU salt and pepper does sound like it would be perfect seasoning for British gammon.

[Konrad von Carstein]

5 minutes ago, Beni said:

 

I don't know if they sell it separately, but non-EU salt and pepper does sound like it would be perfect seasoning for British gammon.

[The Mighty Thor]

8 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said:

Everyone apart from the 17 million people who voted for it 🤷🏻‍♂️

Come now, 'they knew what they were voting for'.  🤔

[NANOJAMBO]

50 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Unsure why people are trying to Score points About Brexit .? It’s rather a mooted argument . Everyone knew it was gonna to be an epic disaster of gigantic proportions and it’s now evident that it is . So it’s not exactly point scoring as such . More of “ I Told you so “ 

Brexiters will tell you either no one knew what brexit was going to deliver (as though we've all forgotten about their big red bus - for starters) , it's all going fine or it's all going titz up but they don't care anyway cos they got their "freedom" back.

 

That's three very good reasons to keep their brexit shi t show on the front page. 

[NANOJAMBO]

10 minutes ago, Beni said:

 

I don't know if they sell it separately, but non-EU salt and pepper does sound like it would be perfect seasoning for British gammon.

😄

[Dazo]

Looks like the Enzo pile on gang heading for a 3 day bender 😂

 

And people revelling in any negative UK outcome. 😂 

[NANOJAMBO]

4 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Looks like the Enzo pile on gang heading for a 3 day bender 😂

 

And people revelling in any negative UK outcome. 😂 

[NANOJAMBO]

Just seen the new Niedersachsen flag from Germany and thought it'd be perfect for brexit ... two unicorns *** king. 

 

[WorldChampions1902]

43 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

They knew but still threw caution to the wind . Silly really . 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

 

Exactly . They wanted out , out . Out if everything lock stock and barrel . And got it . Be careful what you wish for comes To mind . 

[WorldChampions1902]

1 minute ago, JamesM48 said:

Exactly . They wanted out , out . Out if everything lock stock and barrel . And got it . Be careful what you wish for comes To mind . 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

11 minutes ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

 

Lol 😂 

[Unknown user]

35 minutes ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

 

 

[ri Alban]

43 minutes ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

 

[Enzo Chiefo]

3 hours ago, NANOJAMBO said:

For the last time, and let's not forget why we got to this apparently trivial point.

 

You started off by saying water was privatised because government (aka the state ) didn't have the money to fix the problems and denied it was done to finance tax cuts. 

 

So here we go , in 1989 Thatcher privatised water (in England, but NOT Scotland ) but as has been pointed out to you , she also sold off,  inter alia , BT, Britsh Gas to raise funds for much needed tax cuts.  Argue all you like, that is a proven fact.

And as also pointed out to you by me & others, It also fitted her "small government" agenda and had nothing to do with  "the state " having "no money", as you put it. The state having "no money" argument  is completely false as I'll demonstrate below. 

 

Your point is proven fallacious because in Scotland, water continued to be in publc hands for SIXTEEN years after Thatcher privatised it in England. As I have shown  you (but which you labelled "conspiracy theories") , Scottish water is 100% owned by the Scot gov and Scottish water is financed through its own revenues and "long term government loans". So, for SIXTEEN years after privatisation in England, Scotland financed its water services with government loans - which you claim Thatcher couldn't afford to do for England. 

 

SIXTEEN years after the 1989 privatisation in England , Scotland allowed private sector competition  in the water "market" in a very limited and specific way and for a 4 year period only- I am assuming they won this business through a tender process*. If so, that is not privatisation. (for which I've given you two definitions - and awarding a short term contract on commercial grounds doesn't meet that criteria.   *Maybe you can confirm - I've asked you before but you never answered. 

 

So in short, you're nitpicking over "privatisation" because that's all you have left after  your nonsense about Thatcher was shown to be wrong and  your nonsense about Thatcher not having the money to pay for the works required is wrong (cos either Westminster gov or Scot gov was still financing it in Scotland 16 years after privatisation in England). 

 

And now I'm putting your insulting , time wasting arse on ignore. 

Again, a pile of irrelevant England v Scotland divisive pish. 

As long as you accept that the academic definition of "privatisation" includes outsourcing and sub-contracting while "opening up the market to competition" is full blown privatisation.

You may well have your own, personal,  definition of privatisation but I'll side with academia here, thanks.

Privatisation applies to several areas of Scottish Water service provision including business customers and water treatment. 

I'm not intetested in Scotland v England timelines, it was nothing to do with my point.

And I'm sure you would be one of the first to squeal about NHS privatisation, were it to be "opened up to competition". That, indeed , would be privatisation. You chose to ignore my question on that issue.

 

I'm glad you've hidden behind the ignore function because your denial of factual evidence,  provided by academics and experts, has dragged this thread down. All to fight ridiculous nationalistic battles. Pathetic. 

[Enzo Chiefo]

1 hour ago, Dazo said:

Looks like the Enzo pile on gang heading for a 3 day bender 😂

 

And people revelling in any negative UK outcome. 😂 

That will be denied too.  People siding with anybody and everybody against Britain is yet another symptom of the Nationalistic disease that does not permit balance, objectivity and partiality. 

Facts and inconvenient truths are twisted, turned and ignored,  to fit the poisonous narrative: Scotland Good, UK Baaad.

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, Dazo said:

Looks like the Enzo pile on gang heading for a 3 day bender 😂

 

And people revelling in any negative UK outcome. 😂 

Yes its poor patter really.  Unpleasant. 

[NANOJAMBO]

3 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Yes its poor patter really.  Unpleasant. 

 He's been insulting all and sundry and wondering why Mods haven't banned others from  the thread he's been spamming up.  The  irony. 

[Alex Kintner]

Just now, NANOJAMBO said:

 He's been insulting all and sundry and wondering why Mods haven't banned others from  the thread he's been spamming up.  The  irony. 

He only insults those who insult him. Apparently.

[NANOJAMBO]

1 minute ago, Alex Kintner said:

He only insults those who insult him. Apparently.

He's definitely got a God complex, that's for sure. A very troubled person. 

 

But no more from me.  He can spam away to his hearts content. 

[The Mighty Thor]

It's a hail Mary.

 

Present 'facts' that are not facts.

Get corrected. 

Double down.

Get corrected again

Double down some more.

Finish off with a hail Mary.

 

It'll be a different topic tomorrow.

 

It's the modus operandi. 

 

[Enzo Chiefo]

11 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Yes its poor patter really.  Unpleasant. 

Nationalism is a means to an end, James. In their narrow vision the outcome is fixed but the evidence has to be twisted or ignored, in order to reach that final destination. 

Intelligent people change their views and adapt as evidence or world events change but Nationalism does not tolerate any opposing views or dissent.

I think I've shown I can handle them OK though. The memes and name calling are easily vaporised by facts. 

Some though may be influencing future generations,which is the most frightening part of it all 

[The Real Maroonblood]

18 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Yes its poor patter really.  Unpleasant. 

[Victorian]

A sudden allegiance with academia 😳 

 

Academia that suits my purposes gooooood,  academia that challenges my purposes baaaaaad.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Victorian

[Enzo Chiefo]

1 minute ago, Victorian said:

A sudden allegiance with academia 😳 

 

Academia that suits my purposes gooooood,  adademia that challenges my purposes baaaaaad.

Nothing sudden. I'm aligned on a daily basis.👍

[Alex Kintner]

14 minutes ago, Victorian said:

A sudden allegiance with academia 😳 

 

Academia that suits my purposes gooooood,  academia that challenges my purposes baaaaaad.

Academiaaaa 😂

[JudyJudyJudy]

22 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Nationalism is a means to an end, James. In their narrow vision the outcome is fixed but the evidence has to be twisted or ignored, in order to reach that final destination. 

Intelligent people change their views and adapt as evidence or world events change but Nationalism does not tolerate any opposing views or dissent.

I think I've shown I can handle them OK though. The memes and name calling are easily vaporised by facts. 

Some though may be influencing future generations,which is the most frightening part of it all 

Well said Enzo and I know you can handle yourself.  

 

You make an excellent point about Nationalism being the end all and be all. despite the overwhelming evidence of the disastrous impact Independence  would be on the economy of Scotland. Do people really want to have their children , grand children . nieces,  nephews and themselves with a broken economy with all that entails? 

Edited November 2, 2021 by JamesM48

[Beni]

1 hour ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

I'm not intetested in Scotland v England timelines, it was nothing to do with my point.

 

It has everything to do with your point, - that privatisation of water in England was the only way to make the improvements needed to comply with EU water quality directives.

 

Forget about Scotland, Northern Ireland Water also remains in public ownership, so using G̶o̶o̶g̶l̶e̶ your extensive knowledge of UK water resources, talk us through how Northern Ireland managed to comply with the water quality directives without being flogged to the stock market in 1989.

If you could also make reference as to how they raised the capital, because according to you "the state could not fund" the improvements in England, that would be great.

[NANOJAMBO]

4 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Well said Enzo and I know you can handle yourself.  

 

You make an excellent point about Nationalism being the end all and be all. despite the overwhelming evidence of the disastrous impact Independence  would be on the economy of Scotland. Do people really want to have their children , grand children . nieces,  nephews and themselves with a broken economy with all that entails? 

It's the start of independence and taking control of ones own future ( as opposed to having it dictated by a government Scotland rejected decades ago) leading to Scotland electing a government reflecting the make up of the entire country  and creating a better society. 

[Enzo Chiefo]

4 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Well said Enzo and I know you can handle yourself.  

 

You make an excellent point about Nationalism being the end all and be all. despite the overwhelming evidence of the disastrous impact Independence  would be on the economy of Scotland. Do people really want to have their children , grand children . nieces,  nephews and themselves with a broken economy with all that entails? 

Cheers James. Yes you're right -but the sad fact is that many simply don't care, despite the overwhelming evidence. 

Those in power won't be affected, they'll simply waltz off to a non-job in the UN or retire to their Iberian villa. Those in the population who decide to remain will be the ones who suffer the consequences. 

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

 

Privatisation applies to several areas of Scottish Water service provision including business customers and water treatment. 

I'm not intetested in Scotland v England timelines, it was nothing to do with my point.

And I'm sure you would be one of the first to squeal about NHS privatisation, were it to be "opened up to competition". 

Given your allegiance with the facts, can you please provide the evidence of the private water treatment plants in Scotland?

I'm seeing 297 water treatment plants in Scotland, all owned and run by Scottish Water.

So if you'd be so good as to enlighten me.

 

FYI NHS domestic and catering services were privatised as far back as the late 1980s in what was Lothian Health Board.

So by extension of logic the NHS is private. Right?

[WorldChampions1902]

9 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Well said Enzo and I know you can handle yourself.  

 

You make an excellent point about Nationalism being the end all and be all. despite the overwhelming evidence of the disastrous impact Independence  would be on the economy of Scotland. Do people really want to have their children , grand children . nieces,  nephews and themselves with a broken economy with all that entails? 

That is already being handsomely achieved through Brexit!

[Unknown user]

6 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Well said Enzo and I know you can handle yourself.  

 

You make an excellent point about Nationalism being the end all and be all. despite the overwhelming evidence of the disastrous impact Independence  would be on the economy of Scotland. Do people really want to have their children , grand children . nieces,  nephews and themselves with a broken economy with all that entails? 

 

That's just not true James

[Alex Kintner]

Just now, JamesM48 said:

Well said Enzo and I know you can handle yourself.  

 

You make an excellent point about Nationalism being the end all and be all. despite the overwhelming evidence of the disastrous impact in would be on the economy of Scotland. Do people really want to have their children , grand children . nieces,  nephews and themselves with a broken economy with all that entails? 

The parallels with Brexit are fascinating given you think the 17 million voting for it knew it would be a shitshow. 
 

As I said earlier in the thread one of the biggest differences for me between the Brexit and Indy votes was how genuinely informed the voters were. Those proposing a change to the status quo in the Indy ref (ScotGov) went to the trouble of preparing a very detailed white paper outlining the pros and cons. Those proposing a change to the status quo in the Brexit ref (Vote Leave) went to the trouble of sticking lies on the side of buses and playing to people’s xenophobia. 

 

I voted yes in 2014 and was gutted at the result but it made it easier to swallow as I felt for the most part it was a reasonably fairly conducted referendum and people were able to make a reasonably informed choice. (The No campaign stuff about the EU has since obviously been shown to be lies but we didn’t know that at the time).

 

Same will hopefully happen in the next Indy ref and the focus will be on providing real facts and info and allowing people to make up their minds. 

[WorldChampions1902]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

Aye Ok, I overstepped the mark. Go easy!

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

That is already being handsomely achieved through Brexit!

But it would be worse with Indy

[NANOJAMBO]

3 minutes ago, Beni said:

 

It has everything to do with your point, - that privatisation of water in England was the only way to make the improvements needed to comply with EU water quality directives.

 

Forget about Scotland, Northern Ireland Water also remains in public ownership, so using G̶o̶o̶g̶l̶e̶ your extensive knowledge of UK water resources, talk us through how Northern Ireland managed to comply with the water quality directives without being flogged to the stock market in 1989.

If you could also make reference as to how they raised the capital, because according to you "the state could not fund" the improvements in England, that would be great.

Precisely. 

[Taffin]

Wow, what a mess of a few pages...and I thought I was bad for endless drivel 😂

[Enzo Chiefo]

1 minute ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Given your allegiance with the facts, can you please provide the evidence of the private water treatment plants in Scotland?

I'm seeing 297 water treatment plants in Scotland, all owned and run by Scottish Water.

So if you'd be so good as to enlighten me.

 

FYI NHS domestic and catering services were privatised as far back as the late 1980s in what was Lothian Health Board.

So by extension of logic the NHS is private. Right?

I've long argued that the NHS is partially privatised. Catering, parking, cleaning, theatre management,  medicines etc etc. Yes, it's already part privatised.

I'm done with the Water debate, I've detailed the areas of privatisation,  the involvement of Anglia Water, the PFI money etc. Go search and source the info.

[Enzo Chiefo]

6 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Given your allegiance with the facts, can you please provide the evidence of the private water treatment plants in Scotland?

I'm seeing 297 water treatment plants in Scotland, all owned and run by Scottish Water.

So if you'd be so good as to enlighten me.

 

FYI NHS domestic and catering services were privatised as far back as the late 1980s in what was Lothian Health Board.

So by extension of logic the NHS is private. Right?

Business provision is privatised too.

[NANOJAMBO]

9 minutes ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

That is already being handsomely achieved through Brexit!

😄

[Unknown user]

9 minutes ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

Aye Ok, I overstepped the mark. Go easy!

 

Well I'll certainly no be going hard for a while

[The Mighty Thor]

1 minute ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

 

I'm done with the Water debate, I've detailed the areas of privatisation,  the involvement of Anglia Water, the PFI money etc. Go search and source the info.

I've actually tried to source the info. Surprisingly it doesn't seem to exist with regards to water treatment. 

In the spirit of enlightenment though, Anglian water lost their 4 year contract at its end in 2020 to an Edinburgh based company called Business Stream. 

However, like Anglian, their contract covers supply of fresh water and removal of waste water to non domestic customers. Nothing about water treatment plants. 

 

I thought, given the confidence with which you were shouting about it, that you'd have them facts backed up to deliver the zinger? 

[WorldChampions1902]

4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Well I'll certainly no be going hard for a while

Hard Brexit?

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

Hard Brexit?

 

 

[Alex Kintner]

18 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Given your allegiance with the facts, can you please provide the evidence of the private water treatment plants in Scotland?

I'm seeing 297 water treatment plants in Scotland, all owned and run by Scottish Water.

So if you'd be so good as to enlighten me.

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

I'm done with the Water debate.