Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Sidelight]

Boris has played a blinder. Royal accent forthcoming? Not.

[I P Knightley]

10 hours ago, RobboM said:

All fine and dandy and overwhelmingly policies I would be happy to get behind BUT the election will be all about Brexit and the latest Labour position (as put forward by Emily Thornberry on Question Time) is nuts. The idea that you will re-negotiate a softer Brexit deal , put that to a referendum and campaign against it is nonsensical and will be exposed from Day 1 of the Brexit General Election campaign.

I thought the reasoning behind not going for the general election was to isolate Brexit and get it dealt with one way or another. When Johnson, Raab, Gove and co have failed to deliver what they've promised, the election can be fought on other important issues. If, before the election, we've had a second Brexit referendum, the issue of Brexit, and what government's mandate is will be much clearer, making it less of an electoral issue. 

 

If Brexit it's still hanging around like a bad smell, then a general election is just a proxy but flawed second referendum where there's a reasonable chance that, say, the majority prefer to remain but the fptp system returns a pro-Brexit government. 

31 minutes ago, alfajambo said:

Boris has played a blinder. Royal accent forthcoming? Not.

It's difficult to demonstrate but I can do quite a good Prince Charles accent.

[XB52]

2 hours ago, BarneyBattles said:

 

I’ve said the same to him previously that ‘nippy/crankie’ etc. detracts from the point he’s trying to make. 

He doesn't have a point, he just trolls this thread spouting garbage to derail any semblance of a proper discussion. He is the loony unionist mirror of aussieh. At least aussieh is a lone loony voice on the independence side, unlike the unionist cabal 

[Unknown user]

7 hours ago, JackLadd said:

Noises coming from EU suggest the Jezza/Nip election snub is a massive OG.  They might have convinced the voters in October to empty BoJo (who knows), but now they are staring down the barrel of no deal as even the EU are ready to walk instead of extending article 50 or giving BoJo any new deal crumbs. Sad!

 

Which noises are these exactly? What part of the EU are they eminating from?

 

Where exactly did you get this from?

[ri Alban]

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

Which noises are these exactly? What part of the EU are they eminating from?

 

Where exactly did you get this from?

Macron doesn't want to extend it. According Marc Roche  on the BBC news channel.

[A Boy Named Crow]

5 hours ago, I P Knightley said:

 

It's difficult to demonstrate but I can do quite a good Prince Charles accent.

An easy win, when trying to do the royal accent, is to say a slow, drawn out “ears” when you mean “yes”.

[ri Alban]

Attempted Impeachment coming.

 

 

[kingantti1874]

2 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Macron doesn't want to extend it. According Marc Roche  on the BBC news channel.

 Not without a good reason. 
 

with Boris set to ignore the law and the EU not keen to extend without a good reason I think we will see the final card being played which no one is keen to play.

 

No GE, motion of no confidence- the anti no deal parties form a temporary government and take control of the house papers and negotiations.

[Cade]

If the No-Deal blocking bill gets royal assent today then Boris will probably prorogue to stop Parliament passing more bills.

Can't call an election, can't do No Deal, can't do much of anything so he'll spit the dummy and shut it down.

[Martin_T]

I think the EU are quite right not to extend, indeed why should they? Our government has shown no tangible willingness to negotiate further, so what is the point?

[Pans Jambo]

15 minutes ago, Cade said:

If the No-Deal blocking bill gets royal assent today then Boris will probably prorogue to stop Parliament passing more bills.

Can't call an election, can't do No Deal, can't do much of anything so he'll spit the dummy and shut it down.

This was his plan all along (as we know from the court papers revealed last week, he instructed a shut down at least 2 weeks before he denied the same).

 

The Tories dont WANT a deal. They dont care.

Edited September 9, 2019 by Pans Jambo

[Cade]

Boris' plan to get around the No-No-Deal bill was to send one letter to the EU asking for an extension (forced to do this by that bill) AND to send another letter asking them to ignore the first letter.

 

Legal experts have ripped the pish out of this plan.

 

He's got nowhere to go. Backed himself into a corner in record time.

[jack D and coke]

[Justin Z]

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Those remaining intentionally blind to that reality--and it is the reality--probably had in mind that Brexit was some sort of populist middle finger to the establishment, and it's too painful to admit they've been played for fools by the establishment all along.

[Lee_Mellon]

1 hour ago, Martin_T said:

I think the EU are quite right not to extend, indeed why should they? Our government has shown no tangible willingness to negotiate further, so what is the point?

Maybe because  we provide 12% of EU resources?

[jack D and coke]

9 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

Those remaining intentionally blind to that reality--and it is the reality--probably had in mind that Brexit was some sort of populist middle finger to the establishment, and it's too painful to admit they've been played for fools by the establishment all along.

I won’t lie I was in favour of a Brexit before the referendum. I had literally no idea what it meant I’ll be honest. 

I think the result has to be honoured but I was definitely mistaken. 

[dobmisterdobster]

Franco-German protectionism dressed up as anti-tax avoidance laws.

[Pans Jambo]

7 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

Franco-German protectionism dressed up as anti-tax avoidance laws.

Got a couple of Billion squirrelled away dobbie???

 

Naw?

 

Why you bothered then?

[dobmisterdobster]

5 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Got a couple of Billion squirrelled away dobbie???

 

Naw?

 

Why you bothered then?

I'm not bothered about tax avoidance in the slightest.

[Martin_T]

18 minutes ago, Lee_Mellon said:

Maybe because  we provide 12% of EU resources?

 

Which they have a far longer head start to have planned and accounted for the loss of. Whereas we still don't have a ##### clue what we are doing a few weeks before we are due to leave.

[Mysterion]

28 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

 

I've seen this a few times. 

This is the sort of thing that makes me go "lets get those tax dodgers" but questioning it I went looking around. Spotted this but I think we need more info to clarify if it is a valid outlook or the red herring that is being suggested. 

 

Quote

In fact, that directive came into force on January 1 and the UK has taken stepsto incorporate it into national law – but the only part of it that currently applies is the “Controlled Foreign Company” rule, that deters profit-shifting to a low tax/no tax country. Who’d like to see a progress report from HMRC on measures taken to prevent this?

Other directives don’t come in until January 2020 and the UK has changed domestic law to bring it in line with them.

So was the tax avoidance argument a red herring?

https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2019/01/16/was-the-brexit-date-really-set-to-avoid-eu-tax-avoidance-laws-it-seems-not/

[Martin_T]

3 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

I'm not bothered about tax avoidance in the slightest.

 

You should be. It denies governments income that could be spent on better public services.

 

The starvation of funding of which, is the primary reason why no one can get a GP appointment as opposed to immigration.

[Cade]

2 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

 

Which they have a far longer head start to have planned and accounted for the loss of. Whereas we still don't have a ##### clue what we are doing a few weeks before we are due to leave.

500 million people is easier to spread the financial pain between than 70million is.

And they have all these lovely new trade deals with Canada and Japan and South America and others, which forms a giant trading block covering 1/3 of global GDP.

I'm sure the EU will be just fine.

 

[Beni]

39 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

Those remaining intentionally blind to that reality--and it is the reality--probably had in mind that Brexit was some sort of populist middle finger to the establishment, and it's too painful to admit they've been played for fools by the establishment all along.

 

[Justin Z]

19 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

I'm not bothered about tax avoidance in the slightest.

 

A handy single post summary of how many metric shit tons of wool one person can pull over their own eyes.

[dobmisterdobster]

18 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

 

You should be. It denies governments income that could be spent on better public services.

 

The starvation of funding of which, is the primary reason why no one can get a GP appointment as opposed to immigration.

The NHS (in England) gets more funding than ever before. But they chosen to squander it on a convoluted management structure and the salaries that come with it.

Nobody is willing to have a grown up discussion about the NHS because its too valuable as a political football.

[maroonlegions]

Just to reiterate.   Tory created Brexit, full of manipulated lies and spin  , intended to do one thing ,lie and fool the public with lies pretending it's a good deal for even the ordinary  working families and the NHS. 

 

Becoming oh so clearer now though. 

[Lee_Mellon]

31 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

 

Which they have a far longer head start to have planned and accounted for the loss of. Whereas we still don't have a ##### clue what we are doing a few weeks before we are due to leave.

Oh, I've no doubt that the wise old EU have prepared for every eventuality - it's still a reduction of 12% though, which I'm sure the other net contributors will wish to avoid.

 

When we do get a clue what we're doing, I'm sure £8 billion annually will come in handy to help keep the wolf from the door.

 

Incidentally, I'm disappointed that the whole Brexit impasse has forced you to resort to swearing - in my view it's unnecessary and lowers the tone of the discussion as much as the posters who think it's funny to assign insulting names to their least favourite politicians.

[Martin_T]

20 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

The NHS (in England) gets more funding than ever before. But they chosen to squander it on a convoluted management structure and the salaries that come with it.

Nobody is willing to have a grown up discussion about the NHS because its too valuable as a political football.

 

I actually agree with this to some extent. We have a situation where  a large section of the workforce, particularly in financial services, have private health care provision. If the private sector was larger in healthcare in the UK, arguably the pressure on the NHS could be relieved somewhat by encouraging more people to make use of that provision.

 

Although I do get the wider arguments that we want to avoid a two tier health care service etc.

 

What is certainly not going to help the situation either way, is plunging the country into economic chaos, leading to job losses and labour shortages etc.

[Martin_T]

Just now, Lee_Mellon said:

Oh, I've no doubt that the wise old EU have prepared for every eventuality - it's still a reduction of 12% though, which I'm sure the other net contributors will wish to avoid.

 

When we do get a clue what we're doing, I'm sure £8 billion annually will come in handy to help keep the wolf from the door.

 

Incidentally, I'm disappointed that the whole Brexit impasse has forced you to resort to swearing - in my view it's unnecessary and lowers the tone of the discussion as much as the posters who think it's funny to assign insulting names to their least favourite politicians.

 

I have young onset Parkinson's disease and accidentally held down the # key when typing. If it better suits your sensibilities, substitute the words ' fluffy bunnies' in where you see the #'s.

 

Either way the UK has yet to formulate a credible plan for what 'leave' looks like and given the timescales and the subsequent leverage for subsequent negotiations in the event of 'No Deal' the ball is very much in Brussels court.

[Pans Jambo]

53 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

I'm not bothered about tax avoidance in the slightest.

Why not? 

I (& I assume you) have no choice but to pay your income tax. 

Why should the super rich be allowed to hide the tax they should pay off-shore? 

Could the UK not do with the extra tax income?

Of course it could. We pay, so should they. 

[Lee_Mellon]

2 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

 

I have young onset Parkinson's disease and accidentally held down the # key when typing. If it better suits your sensibilities, substitute the words ' fluffy bunnies' in where you see the #'s.

 

Either way the UK has yet to formulate a credible plan for what 'leave' looks like and given the timescales and the subsequent leverage for subsequent negotiations in the event of 'No Deal' the ball is very much in Brussels court.

 

Apologies - I'm so used to seeing the # key used to mask swearing,  I just assumed...never a clever thing to do! 

 

Anyway, the ball is in the EU's court no matter which way we turn and has been since we triggered Article 50 - that's why I (a devoted leaver who read David Cameron's booklet and was therefore under no illusions what leaving meant) think that the sooner we're out the sooner we can turn the forecast "chaos" and get the UK back on an even keel.

[Martin_T]

1 minute ago, Lee_Mellon said:

 

Apologies - I'm so used to seeing the # key used to mask swearing,  I just assumed...never a clever thing to do! 

 

Anyway, the ball is in the EU's court no matter which way we turn and has been since we triggered Article 50 - that's why I (a devoted leaver who read David Cameron's booklet and was therefore under no illusions what leaving meant) think that the sooner we're out the sooner we can turn the forecast "chaos" and get the UK back on an even keel.

 

What makes you a dedicated leaver? What do you perceive the benefits to be?

 

We've reached a point in the debate, perhaps sometime ago, where people have started to identify as 'Leaver' or 'Remainer' and have ever more entrenched and widening beliefs on the subject. I voted Remain and still believe that the economic benefits, including single market access and  leverage in trade negotiations with the rest of the world are hugely beneficial. I see great benefit from freedom of movement and believe that it has helped to address labour shortages and has culturally enriched this country and I'm willing to live with the relative democratic deficit as sovereignty is ultimately achieved through peace and prosperity.

[jake]

31 minutes ago, maroonlegions said:

Just to reiterate.   Tory created Brexit, full of manipulated lies and spin  , intended to do one thing ,lie and fool the public with lies pretending it's a good deal for even the ordinary  working families and the NHS. 

 

Becoming oh so clearer now though. 

Come 2020 and come 2022 the Lisbon treaty will trigger other new laws .

The right to veto gone .

And the use of the euro mandatory by 22.

Just a couple of things people may or may not be aware of.

People holding up the EU as a bull work against big business and the rich is amusing.

[RobboM]

22 minutes ago, jake said:

Come 2020 and come 2022 the Lisbon treaty will trigger other new laws .

The right to veto gone .

And the use of the euro mandatory by 22.

Just a couple of things people may or may not be aware of.

People holding up the EU as a bull work against big business and the rich is amusing.

Not true

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47523168

[Mysterion]

26 minutes ago, jake said:

Come 2020 and come 2022 the Lisbon treaty will trigger other new laws .

The right to veto gone .

And the use of the euro mandatory by 22.

Just a couple of things people may or may not be aware of.

People holding up the EU as a bull work against big business and the rich is amusing.

 

Very misleading to state this without highlighting there are opt outs. 

 

In a similar vein - it's always stated if Scotland rejoined Europe we'd have to accept the Euro. We have to sign an agreement that we would work towards it however there are the same opt outs we are legally entitled to take and reject it as a currency. 

[Cade]

Parliament to be prorogued from tonight.

 

Told ya.

[Mikey1874]

12 minutes ago, Cade said:

Parliament to be prorogued from tonight.

 

Told ya.

 

https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/09/boris-johnson-prorogue-parliament-end-today-10710339/

[Lee_Mellon]

3 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

 

What makes you a dedicated leaver? What do you perceive the benefits to be?

 

We've reached a point in the debate, perhaps sometime ago, where people have started to identify as 'Leaver' or 'Remainer' and have ever more entrenched and widening beliefs on the subject. I voted Remain and still believe that the economic benefits, including single market access and  leverage in trade negotiations with the rest of the world are hugely beneficial. I see great benefit from freedom of movement and believe that it has helped to address labour shortages and has culturally enriched this country and I'm willing to live with the relative democratic deficit as sovereignty is ultimately achieved through peace and prosperity.

 

I like the idea of a Common Market and I voted to stay in when the first referendum happened back in the 70s, but the moves toward ever closer political integration (Maastricht) don't sit well with me. Incidentally,Johnson removing the whip from MPs who voted against the government is reminiscent of the Maastricht vote, when John Major removed the whip from Conservative MPs who... you get the picture.

 

I don't like the waste - for me, the monthly EU Parliament move from Brussels to Strasbourg and back is lunacy. MEPs are an extra layer of government that I believe we can do without.

 

Do they really think that the 17.4 million people who voted Leave had no idea what they were voting for?

 

I don't believe that the EU automatically brings peace (Irish Republican violence has never gone away, the far right are on the rise in the former East Germany) or prosperity (Greece, Germany perilously close to recession)

 

In the UK, we have a multicultural society that happened long before the EU was born, so I don't think the EU can claim credit for that. I also don't recall many labour shortages until UK citizens got uppity and refused to work for pittance wages. Freedom of movement would probably be a good thing if it wasn't discriminatory.

 

Since the referendum, my views have certainly become more entranched, mainly due to the superior, "we know best" attitude of many Remainer MPs - 

Dominic (Legion D'Honneur) Grieve,

Oliver Letwin (suggested to Thatcher that bringing the Poll Tax in to Scotland early was a wonderful wheeze, blamed the Broadwater Farm riots on the "bad moral attitudes" of the residents).

Anna Soubry

Dr Sarah Wollaston

etc, etc

 

I keep reading about the misinformation from the Leave campaign, but the Remain side was just as bad - apparently, voting Leave was in itself enough to cause "financial chaos" and force George Osborne to have an emergency budget. Well, my (modest) share portfolio is up 20% since the referendum so you'll forgive me if I don't give too much credence to the latest gloomy predictions.

 

Sorry for a long, unfocused  rant, but you did ask...

 

[ri Alban]

2 hours ago, Martin_T said:

 

You should be. It denies governments income that could be spent on better public services.

 

The starvation of funding of which, is the primary reason why no one can get a GP appointment as opposed to immigration.

And results in resentment towards foreigners, which is cheerlead by the very government who starve the funding.

[XB52]

1 hour ago, jake said:

Come 2020 and come 2022 the Lisbon treaty will trigger other new laws .

The right to veto gone .

And the use of the euro mandatory by 22.

Just a couple of things people may or may not be aware of.

People holding up the EU as a bull work against big business and the rich is amusing.

Yet again you post a bunch of lies

[Boris]

oops...

 

https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-would-not-win-an-election-outright-polling-seen-by-no-10-suggests-11805584

[Boof]

2 hours ago, Lee_Mellon said:

Incidentally, I'm disappointed that the whole Brexit impasse has forced you to resort to swearing - in my view it's unnecessary and lowers the tone of the discussion as much as the posters who think it's funny to assign insulting names to their least favourite politicians.

 

Surely swearing is raising the intellectuality of the debate since swearing is seen as a direct correlation to intelligence...

 

https://www.sciencealert.com/swearing-is-a-sign-of-more-intelligence-not-less-say-scientists

[Victorian]

Latest ruse seems to be to drag their feet in complying with the new legislation and basically force parliamentarians to take them to court in order to enforce the law.    Meanwhile time runs out before no deal can be avoided.     Then they'll claim they had every intention to comply with the law in order to dodge the legal consequences.

 

Hope this can be pre-empted in some way.

[Lee_Mellon]

2 minutes ago, Boof said:

 

Surely swearing is raising the intellectuality of the debate since swearing is seen as a direct correlation to intelligence...

 

https://www.sciencealert.com/swearing-is-a-sign-of-more-intelligence-not-less-say-scientists

So, by that logic, since Martin was not in fact swearing and neither was I, we were lowering the intellectuality of the debate?

[Boof]

7 minutes ago, Lee_Mellon said:

So, by that logic, since Martin was not in fact swearing and neither was I, we were lowering the intellectuality of the debate?

 

Don't ****ing know and don't ****ing care - off topic anyway  

[Lee_Mellon]

2 minutes ago, Boof said:

 

Don't ****ing know and don't ****ing care - off topic anyway  

Thanks for raising the intellectuality of the debate!

[Brighton Jambo]

I see we are still pretty much all arguing about whether we should be leaving or not rather than how and when we leave.

 

I voted remain and am sick at the result but the amount of people who are solely focused on overturning the referendum result is amazing.

 

I would be fascinated to see what some posters on here would do if Scotland voted for independence and three years later it was looking like being delayed again and maybe another vote being discussed that could overturn it.  They would be apoplectic and screaming for the democratic vote to be respected, hypocrites of the highest order.

[redjambo]

18 minutes ago, Boof said:

 

Surely swearing is raising the intellectuality of the debate since swearing is seen as a direct correlation to intelligence...

 

https://www.sciencealert.com/swearing-is-a-sign-of-more-intelligence-not-less-say-scientists

 

What a shite research study. Knowing a greater number of swear words doesn't necessarily correlate to using them and, more importantly, using them unnecessarily (i.e. when they don't add much semantic meaning to what you're saying).

[jack D and coke]

3 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I see we are still pretty much all arguing about whether we should be leaving or not rather than how and when we leave.

 

I voted remain and am sick at the result but the amount of people who are solely focused on overturning the referendum result is amazing.

 

I would be fascinated to see what some posters on here would do if Scotland voted for independence and three years later it was looking like being delayed again and maybe another vote being discussed that could overturn it.  They would be apoplectic and screaming for the democratic vote to be respected, hypocrites of the highest order.

Are you suggesting it’s only Yes voters who want it overturned?