Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[JamboX2]

4 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

 

I think it's fair enough to criticise Labour on lots of grounds.

 

But the big difference is Labour are trying to ensure Brexit happens. The SNP are trying to stop it. Labour cannot win an election without leave voters. Easy for the SNP to ignore them though it might cost them the chance of  independence. 

 

Labour MPs said it was a free vote. But all of them are a shambles. None are acting in the best interests of us Brexit or not. 

[Costanza]

2 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

 

This is why we need a Government of National Unity now. I'd happily see a moderate Tory take on a government of all parties to take us through to the next election in 2022. 

 

An election will not do much. May wont win a majority nor will Corbyn. So same boat.

There's no way the Tories would let May lead them in a general election,  so they'll probably throw up a Brexit leaning leader like Dominic "I hadn't quite understood the importance of the Dover / Calais crossing " Raab.

Any GE will be horribly divisive and I agree unlikely to give anyone an outright majority. Likely to give UKIP/Farage's Brexit party some seats though.

There's no easy way out of this and even a new referendum likely to muddy the waters. Political and economic paralysis for years at this rate.

[Tenaciousdandy]

It's an absolute farce, there should be another referendum, guaranteed all the young folk who just turned voting age would be against 

[redjambo]

Just now, JamboX2 said:

 

Labour MPs said it was a free vote. But all of them are a shambles. None are acting in the best interests of us Brexit or not. 

 

None. Really?

 

Members from all parties are acting in the best interests of the country, although obviously not enough. Others are acting in the best interests of their party. Others are acting in the best interests of their dogma and beliefs. Others are acting out of pure self-interest.

 

To throw an accusation like that at all members of a single party shows that your politics are biased and don't reflective reality. You are part of the problem.

[redjambo]

2 minutes ago, Costanza said:

There's no way the Tories would let May lead them in a general election,  so they'll probably throw up a Brexit leaning leader like Dominic "I hadn't quite understood the importance of the Dover / Calais crossing " Raab.

Any GE will be horribly divisive and I agree unlikely to give anyone an outright majority. Likely to give UKIP/Farage's Brexit party some seats though.

There's no easy way out of this and even a new referendum likely to muddy the waters. Political and economic paralysis for years at this rate.

 

The only easy way out would be an alien invasion. We would revoke Article 50 in the meantime so that we could spend our efforts fighting against the aliens beside our European allies.

 

Other than that, you're right. No easy way out of this at all.

 

[JamboX2]

The closest win is a Customs Union. TIG, Lib Dems and the SNP have to understand that is now all there is for a soft Brexit. 

 

The three biggest of the smaller parties must realise that they need to plump for either SM+CU (TIG / LD have to think this through) or CU (SNP). Hard Brexit is inevitable at the moment and they won't come out of this well if they're seen to be at fault. 

 

Worst PM since Eden.

Worst ever leader of the opposition, perhaps since Henry Lansbury (there are similarities with Corbyn and him) near 90 years ago.

Worst bunch of parliamentarians for hundreds of the year. Perhaps since the Union of 1707. 

 

Biggest crisis in 60 years. 

 

It's unsustainable.

[Taffin]

1 minute ago, JamboX2 said:

The closest win is a Customs Union. TIG, Lib Dems and the SNP have to understand that is now all there is for a soft Brexit. 

 

The three biggest of the smaller parties must realise that they need to plump for either SM+CU (TIG / LD have to think this through) or CU (SNP). Hard Brexit is inevitable at the moment and they won't come out of this well if they're seen to be at fault. 

 

Worst PM since Eden.

Worst ever leader of the opposition, perhaps since Henry Lansbury (there are similarities with Corbyn and him) near 90 years ago.

Worst bunch of parliamentarians for hundreds of the year. Perhaps since the Union of 1707. 

 

Biggest crisis in 60 years. 

 

It's unsustainable.

 

 

I'd rather they stuck to what they believe to be the best outcome. A hard Brexit certainly won't be their fault, it will remain the Tory parties fault and those who voted leave.

[JamboX2]

3 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

None. Really?

 

Members from all parties are acting in the best interests of the country, although obviously not enough. Others are acting in the best interests of their party. Others are acting in the best interests of their dogma and beliefs. Others are acting out of pure self-interest.

 

To throw an accusation like that at all members of a single party shows that your politics are biased and don't reflective reality. You are part of the problem.

 

Not just at one party. All parties. And you're right actually it was hyperbole. I just despair.

 

They need to lock themselves in there till there is an option they can get behind. I actually agree with your first point. It's split. But I think we are into the territory of talks between leaders in parliament on all sides, facilitated by the civil service and fully public as to negotiating positions. 

 

Really do despair.

[AlphonseCapone]

20 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

Country being held to ransom by the ERG. Utterly disheartening. I wish some Tory MPs had broken ranks. I wish the SNP would back Customs Union. 

 

And again, again, the brexiteers treat this transitional deal as the final deal. 

 

Idiots. Absolute idiots.

 

Fair play to Nick Boles. Resigning the Tory whip after trying his all. I can't see the Tories surviving this. 

 

Which doesn't include freedom of movement, something which will devastate this country more than any other part of the UK. So, no, I hope they don't. 

[JamboX2]

1 minute ago, Taffin said:

 

 

I'd rather they stuck to what they believe to be the best outcome. A hard Brexit certainly won't be their fault, it will remain the Tory parties fault and those who voted leave.

 

Time will tell.

 

I have a feeling they wont suffer as much as we think.

[AlimOzturk]

8 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

The closest win is a Customs Union. TIG, Lib Dems and the SNP have to understand that is now all there is for a soft Brexit. 

 

The three biggest of the smaller parties must realise that they need to plump for either SM+CU (TIG / LD have to think this through) or CU (SNP). Hard Brexit is inevitable at the moment and they won't come out of this well if they're seen to be at fault. 

 

Worst PM since Eden.

Worst ever leader of the opposition, perhaps since Henry Lansbury (there are similarities with Corbyn and him) near 90 years ago.

Worst bunch of parliamentarians for hundreds of the year. Perhaps since the Union of 1707. 

 

Biggest crisis in 60 years. 

 

It's unsustainable.

 

SNP simply cannot vote for something that is against what their constituents want and who can blame them?

 

The SNP nor any of the other smaller parties are the cause of this nor are they responsible for the ongoing mess. They wanted a cross party consensus going forward from the start but that was rejected.

 

Nicola sturgeon is literally the only rationale, trustworthy leader I can think atm. 

 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2019 by AlimOzturk

[Taffin]

1 minute ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

SNP simply cannot for something that is against what their constituents want and who can blame them?

 

The SNP not the cause of this nor are they responsible for the ongoing mess. They wanted a cross party consensus going forward from the start but that was rejected.

 

Nicola surgeon is literally the only rationale, trustworthy leader I can think atm. 

 

 

 

 

 

Sadly quite a few seem to be getting ready to pin the blame at their door.

 

Shameful.

[JamboX2]

Just now, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Which doesn't include freedom of movement, something which will devastate this country more than any other part of the UK. So, no, I hope they don't. 

 

Devastate I think is OTT. I think NI would likely suffer more with no free movement of people given they've an EU border. But they should also consider what makes independence easier. A border with free movement of goods would be a good start.

 

The second point to consider with this is the context. Clarke's amemdment is a CU till a full deal is agreed. So the free movement of people is still on the table for them going into round 2 of negotiations.

[Cruyff Turn]

9 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

 

I think it's fair enough to criticise Labour on lots of grounds.

 

But the big difference is Labour are trying to ensure Brexit happens. The SNP are trying to stop it. Labour cannot win an election without leave voters. Easy for the SNP to ignore them though it might cost them the chance of  independence. 

 

Unionists and other parties need to understand this.

 

The SNP are standing up for the sovereignty of the Scottish people and what they voted for. Why should they move from that position? They are upholding Scots Law and Scottish Constitutional principles. If they did not do this, they would be undermining Scotland.

 

Labour are moaning about it because they don’t seem to understand this position.

 

Why should Scotland once again bend over backwards and take it up the duke because this is what England wants? 

 

Since when did we adopt the Magna Carta and assimilation into English Law? 

 

The SNP’s position is absolutely bang on. Revoke or we’ll move towards Independence. 

[JamboX2]

3 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

SNP simply cannot vote for something that is against what their constituents want and who can blame them?

 

The SNP nor any of the other smaller parties are the cause of this nor are they responsible for the ongoing mess. They wanted a cross party consensus going forward from the start but that was rejected.

 

Nicola surgeon is literally the only rationale, trustworthy leader I can think atm. 

 

 

 

 

But noones manifestos won. So why be bound by any of them? 

 

This is national survival type stuff we are into. Not best option.

 

They never started it. None of the opposition parties did. But they are part of a solution to this shitshow. There's a strange sadism in the idea putting millions on the dole, tens of thousands of those being Scots, with no deal will be a good starting place for an independent nation. By that I mean the underlying thought that no deal best to get independence.

[Mikey1874]

It does feel like progress.  

 

Compromises by some.

[redjambo]

Just now, JamboX2 said:

 

Not just at one party. All parties. And you're right actually it was hyperbole. I just despair.

 

They need to lock themselves in there till there is an option they can get behind. I actually agree with your first point. It's split. But I think we are into the territory of talks between leaders in parliament on all sides, facilitated by the civil service and fully public as to negotiating positions. 

 

Really do despair.

 

On that we completely agree. And apologies for the hyperbole on my part.

 

It's frankly embarrassing to see that our Government and, latterly, Parliament have had such a long time to sort this out and haven't. One of the main problems is that they've let the tail wag the dog. Particularly given the close result of the referendum, Brexit always had to be something that was worked out as a consensus across all parties, but we just didn't do it. Despair is indeed the apposite word.

[Costanza]

7 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

The only easy way out would be an alien invasion. We would revoke Article 50 in the meantime so that we could spend our efforts fighting against the aliens beside our European allies.

 

Other than that, you're right. No easy way out of this at all.

 

 

Sensible Aliens would just let us get on with fecking things up!

An indicative referendum of Do you wish to leave v Remain and then if Leave, May's Deal,  Customs Union, Norway Deal, No deal (added for the idiots in the Tory Party who will insist on it being an option).

Would take about 4 votes to agree on the question mind you.

[AlphonseCapone]

3 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Devastate I think is OTT. I think NI would likely suffer more with no free movement of people given they've an EU border. But they should also consider what makes independence easier. A border with free movement of goods would be a good start.

 

The second point to consider with this is the context. Clarke's amemdment is a CU till a full deal is agreed. So the free movement of people is still on the table for them going into round 2 of negotiations.

 

Possibly, or possibly not. I've saw estimates for the impact on the Scottish NHS and devastating is the word that came to mind. 

 

On the second paragraph, that's putting a lot of faith in the British side to sort out a deal with the EU long term. The backstop was in the WA for a reason. I don't think anyone believed there would be an agreement any time soon. 

 

I just can't see beyond independence anymore tbh. 

[redjambo]

9 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

SNP simply cannot vote for something that is against what their constituents want and who can blame them?

 

The SNP nor any of the other smaller parties are the cause of this nor are they responsible for the ongoing mess. They wanted a cross party consensus going forward from the start but that was rejected.

 

Nicola sturgeon is literally the only rationale, trustworthy leader I can think atm.

 

I think Vince Cable is worthy of that tag too.

[AlimOzturk]

1 minute ago, JamboX2 said:

 

But noones manifestos won. So why be bound by any of them? 

 

This is national survival type stuff we are into. Not best option.

 

They never started it. None of the opposition parties did. But they are part of a solution to this shitshow. There's a strange sadism in the idea putting millions on the dole, tens of thousands of those being Scots, with no deal will be a good starting place for an independent nation. By that I mean the underlying thought that no deal best to get independence.

 

The solution is plain and simple....have another referendum, watch as the public backtrack big style and vote overwhelmingly to remain the EU and put this utter loonacy behind us. 

 

[AlphonseCapone]

18 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

The only easy way out would be an alien invasion. We would revoke Article 50 in the meantime so that we could spend our efforts fighting against the aliens beside our European allies.

 

Other than that, you're right. No easy way out of this at all.

 

 

Fighting with the aliens against the Europeans more like. 

[redjambo]

Just now, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Fighting with the aliens against the Europeans more like. 

 

We would probably never quite decide what to do while spending months debating it in Parliament.

[JamboX2]

3 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Possibly, or possibly not. I've saw estimates for the impact on the Scottish NHS and devastating is the word that came to mind. 

 

On the second paragraph, that's putting a lot of faith in the British side to sort out a deal with the EU long term. The backstop was in the WA for a reason. I don't think anyone believed there would be an agreement any time soon. 

 

I just can't see beyond independence anymore tbh. 

 

Then you need to prepare yourself for a difficult discussion about the freedom Scotland will have to determine its relationship with the UK if it opts for EU membership and the impact on that for Scots in the UK at that time. As we will be bound by that relationship.

[JamboX2]

5 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

The solution is plain and simple....have another referendum, watch as the public backtrack big style and vote overwhelmingly to remain the EU and put this utter loonacy behind us. 

 

 

Agree. But that's not happening without parliamentary approval.

[coconut doug]

8 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

But noones manifestos won. So why be bound by any of them? 

 

This is national survival type stuff we are into. Not best option.

 

They never started it. None of the opposition parties did. But they are part of a solution to this shitshow. There's a strange sadism in the idea putting millions on the dole, tens of thousands of those being Scots, with no deal will be a good starting place for an independent nation. By that I mean the underlying thought that no deal best to get independence.

The SNP do not want to damage the economy of Scotland or the UK. There's a strange sadism in suggesting they do.

[JamboX2]

2 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

The SNP do not want to damage the economy of Scotland or the UK. There's a strange sadism in suggesting they do.

 

Its an undesirable consequence of no compromise being agreed. And that is not just on them but all parties.

 

Yet some SNP supporters I know would happily take a bad UK deal to get independence. Which is sadism.

Edited April 1, 2019 by JamboX2

[coconut doug]

4 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Then you need to prepare yourself for a difficult discussion about the freedom Scotland will have to determine its relationship with the UK if it opts for EU membership and the impact on that for Scots in the UK at that time. As we will be bound by that relationship.

What will the impact be for Scots at the time Scotland opts for EU membership. Are you suggesting they will be deported or interned or abused in some way?

[JamboX2]

6 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

What will the impact be for Scots at the time Scotland opts for EU membership. Are you suggesting they will be deported or interned or abused in some way?

 

No. Where have I said that? But their rights will be massively governed by the UKs deal with the EU. So it is in our best interests as Scots, if independence is to happen, that the least worst deal (as all Brexit deals are bad) is achieved. 

 

However, a no deal means no freedom of movement but also no reciprocity of rights and entitlements. So if it is no deal then independence there'll be border controls and likely rights of residency to be agreed. That will be a big headache for Scots in the UK in this scenario and any Scottish government negotiating on those persons behalf.

Edited April 1, 2019 by JamboX2

[redjambo]

5 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

What will the impact be for Scots at the time Scotland opts for EU membership. Are you suggesting they will be deported or interned or abused in some way?

 

If/when we become independent and if/when we join the EU after independence, we will have to endure many similar discussions and hard bargaining like we've had to endure for Brexit. It certainly won't be a walk in the park, and not everything will end up smelling of roses.

Edited April 1, 2019 by redjambo

[JamboX2]

2 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

If/when we become independent and if/when we join the EU after independence, we will have to endure many similar discussions and hard bargaining like we've had to endure for Brexit. It certainly won't be a walk in the park, and not everything will end up smelling of roses.

 

Exactly what I mean by not an easy discussion.

[coconut doug]

3 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Its an undesirable consequence of no compromise being agreed. And that is not just on them but all parties.

 

Yet some SNP supporters I know would happily take a bad UK deal to get independence. Which is sadism.

I doubt if the SNP supporters you know are currently driving SNP policy.

 

A bad deal is what the current SNP leadership is trying to resist. If we get a reasonable deal it will be because opposition parties have outvoted the government but whatever the deal is it will be detrimental to Scotland. The SNP have compromised by being willing to support the least worst deal, any more and they could rightly be criticised for selling Scotland out. Every party has obligations to its supporters but in the case of the SNP these obligations are clear i.e. fight to remain in the EU and as yet all options are not closed for them. Thanks mainly to the SNP we can still revoke A50 and if no agreement is made that is a possible outcome. 

[JamboX2]

12 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

I doubt if the SNP supporters you know are currently driving SNP policy.

 

A bad deal is what the current SNP leadership is trying to resist. If we get a reasonable deal it will be because opposition parties have outvoted the government but whatever the deal is it will be detrimental to Scotland. The SNP have compromised by being willing to support the least worst deal, any more and they could rightly be criticised for selling Scotland out. Every party has obligations to its supporters but in the case of the SNP these obligations are clear i.e. fight to remain in the EU and as yet all options are not closed for them. Thanks mainly to the SNP we can still revoke A50 and if no agreement is made that is a possible outcome. 

 

I agree with all of that, surprisingly for us CD! 

 

The bit in bold I would say it is detrimental for all towns, villages, cities, regions, parts and nations of the UK. But agree their focus is specifically Scotland. Albeit I would say all Scottish MPs are evidently mindful of this as only 1 Scottish MP has backed no deal. 

[coconut doug]

10 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

No. Where have I said that? But their rights will be massively governed by the UKs deal with the EU. So it is in our best interests as Scots, if independence is to happen, that the least worst deal (as all Brexit deals are bad) is achieved. 

 

However, a no deal means no freedom of movement but also no reciprocity of rights and entitlements. So if it is no deal then independence there'll be border controls and likely rights of residency to be agreed. That will be a big headache for Scots in the UK in this scenario and any Scottish government negotiating on those persons behalf.

Do you think it will apply to the Irish as well or will we be treated particularly badly?  What do you think would happen to the more than 400,000 English that live here? Will the UK still be the UK if Scotland becomes independent?

 

Even if this ludicrous scenario were to come about don't you think the EU has had and continues to have arrangements for allowing the unimpeded movement of people across borders?

 

Do you think a draconian approach by the "UK" to the residency of Scots in this UK might be reciprocated by the EU(protecting a member state) resulting in millions of non Scottish UK emigrants returning to the UK?

 

How will they tell who is Scottish, will they check birth certificates, accents, dress, eating habits, DNA or will they be given a choice i.e. Scottish or UKish?

[JamboX2]

8 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

Do you think it will apply to the Irish as well or will we be treated particularly badly?  What do you think would happen to the more than 400,000 English that live here? Will the UK still be the UK if Scotland becomes independent?

 

Even if this ludicrous scenario were to come about don't you think the EU has had and continues to have arrangements for allowing the unimpeded movement of people across borders?

 

Do you think a draconian approach by the "UK" to the residency of Scots in this UK might be reciprocated by the EU(protecting a member state) resulting in millions of non Scottish UK emigrants returning to the UK?

 

How will they tell who is Scottish, will they check birth certificates, accents, dress, eating habits, DNA or will they be given a choice i.e. Scottish or UKish?

 

All I'm saying is reciprocity of citizens rights is a key element of EU treaties and that a no deal scenario shreds that reciprocal nature. Therefore there would be zero reciprocity of rights initially if Scotland and the rest of the UK split.  Separate treaties would be needed or it would need to form part of any future arrangement between the UK and EU. By it's very nature such a deal wont be as generous as the situation now and an independent Scotland would become bound to a degree by those future treaties between the UK and EU as a member state. 

 

That is fairly uncontroversial. You seem to suggest Scots will be treated more favourably than others. I would hope so, out of self interest. Its not necessarily a draconian choice but a legal default. Obviously there would be agreements dictating rights etc. I'm not saying we'd be made to walk about with ID cards. But we would lose certain privileges and rights we currently hold, as EU citizens are about to. 

 

As it stands the Irish will be bound by many of the arrangements in the withdrawal agreement as will UK citizens in Ireland. And in a no deal scenario thousands of British nationals will return to the UK from Europe as by law their rights as EU citizens will have evaporated overnight. The deal for all its flaws is a managed transition to the new relationship which will set out the new way this will all work in future.

 

As for the bit in bold, the UK will continue to exist as Scotland would  e opting to leave it. The English, Welsh and Northern Ireland would still be in union. Much like the UK continued beyond 1922. The UK would roll on. It is Scotland leaving the UK and starting out as a state free to manage its position how it sees fit. The process here is different from, say, the dissolution of Czechoslovakia where the constituent parts mutually dissolved their union. But that is off topic.

[coconut doug]

55 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Its an undesirable consequence of no compromise being agreed. And that is not just on them but all parties.

 

Yet some SNP supporters I know would happily take a bad UK deal to get independence. Which is sadism.

As is often the case your argument works the other way round. According to Nick Watt the .    PM believes that at a stroke the Boles plan would have destroyed main pro-UK argument in a Scottish independence referendum: stay in UK as the only way to maintain full access to Scotland’s largest market in rest of UK 

[ri Alban]

5 hours ago, JAYEL said:

Leave continuances will now have a chance to get rid of the remainers in a General Election

You know they voted these MPs in after the EUref result?  Anyway, you think people should elect MPs based on one policy. In voting for brexiteers because of brexit, aye but he's also for NHS privatisation and public killings of minorities.

[ri Alban]

5 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

The closest win is a Customs Union. TIG, Lib Dems and the SNP have to understand that is now all there is for a soft Brexit. 

 

The three biggest of the smaller parties must realise that they need to plump for either SM+CU (TIG / LD have to think this through) or CU (SNP). Hard Brexit is inevitable at the moment and they won't come out of this well if they're seen to be at fault. 

 

Worst PM since Eden.

Worst ever leader of the opposition, perhaps since Henry Lansbury (there are similarities with Corbyn and him) near 90 years ago.

Worst bunch of parliamentarians for hundreds of the year. Perhaps since the Union of 1707. 

 

Biggest crisis in 60 years. 

 

It's unsustainable.

The SNP don't have to do anything, thank you very much.

The very fact they are trying to stop brexit is dangerous enough for our  Independence and a good deal would probably give  voters the excuse to vote no. 

Personally, I'd give everyone in the UK a no deal hard brexit,(Along with all the leading brexiteers home addresses, hers, take it up with them)and say how do like them apples. 

 

And , why are The Labour, SNP, Libdem, Green parties being blamed for this. This is down to the The Tories and their wee pets The DUP. 

 

[ri Alban]

5 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Then you need to prepare yourself for a difficult discussion about the freedom Scotland will have to determine its relationship with the UK if it opts for EU membership and the impact on that for Scots in the UK at that time. As we will be bound by that relationship.

You see, that's the beauty about independence, we decide. One border for the price of 27+, not much of a decision, really! But something tells me Scotland will join Norway. 

Edited April 2, 2019 by ri Alban

[The Mighty Thor]

To those hoping a 2nd referendum would solve matters, I'm not so sure. 

I think many underestimate the huge numbers of people, predominantly in Englandshire, who are absolutely rabid in their desire to regain England's former glories and to be shot of the hun and all the other Johnny Foreigner types. 

As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, we are very very different from them, socially, culturally and politically. 

'English independence' is a very different beast to what a Scottish independence would look like. 

Every day that passes now is another step down the road to English independence IMO.

[JamboX2]

6 hours ago, coconut doug said:

As is often the case your argument works the other way round. According to Nick Watt the .    PM believes that at a stroke the Boles plan would have destroyed main pro-UK argument in a Scottish independence referendum: stay in UK as the only way to maintain full access to Scotland’s largest market in rest of UK 

 

So, thinking it through, the PM's plan is to stoke nationalist anger in Scotland with a hard Brexit and maintain a position which maintains Sturgeon's material change of circumstances rather than undercut that reasoning for indyref2 by meeting them in the middle?

Edited April 2, 2019 by JamboX2

[JamboX2]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

You see, that's the beauty about independence, we decide. One border for the price of 27+, not much of a decision, really! But something tells me Scotland will join Norway. 

 

And have a hard border with the EU and with the UK? Smashing.

[JamboX2]

57 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

To those hoping a 2nd referendum would solve matters, I'm not so sure. 

I think many underestimate the huge numbers of people, predominantly in Englandshire, who are absolutely rabid in their desire to regain England's former glories and to be shot of the hun and all the other Johnny Foreigner types. 

As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, we are very very different from them, socially, culturally and politically. 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/news/politics/majority-of-scots-want-to-end-freedom-of-movement-post-brexit-1-4657471/amp

 

We aren't though, social attitudes surveys show the same trends in Scotland to that of the wider UK population, even on ending freedom of movement. There is also a noticeable tinge within Scottish political thought against the EU. The SNP aren't exactly big fans of "ever closer union" and the Tories have reservations around CFP and CAP. Added to the euroscepticism of the far left (RISE, SSP etc) and you do have a much more varied view of all this than a Scotland black, England white view of it all.

 

Quote

'English independence' is a very different beast to what a Scottish independence would look like. 

Every day that passes now is another step down the road to English independence IMO.

 

Frankly, again, I don't think these two points are as wide apart as you make out. Listening to some brexiteers is like listening to some Scottish nationalists: demands for a free, sovereign, independent state free from interference and pooled sovereignty with (insert union of choice here). 

 

I agree that certain members of the Tory party are nothing more than English nationalists but a lot of their bumpf is off the same hymn sheet as Scottish nationalists.

 

Added to that the referendum results in '16 and '14 were reactionary to something else, austerity and Tory led government. I don't think all are as committed to these causes as we think. Which Progress Scotland's polling seems to show for independence.

Edited April 2, 2019 by JamboX2

[AlphonseCapone]

18 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/news/politics/majority-of-scots-want-to-end-freedom-of-movement-post-brexit-1-4657471/amp

 

We aren't though, social attitudes surveys show the same trends in Scotland to that of the wider UK population, even on ending freedom of movement. There is also a noticeable tinge within Scottish political thought against the EU. The SNP aren't exactly big fans of "ever closer union" and the Tories have reservations around CFP and CAP. Added to the euroscepticism of the far left (RISE, SSP etc) and you do have a much more varied view of all this than a Scotland black, England white view of it all.

 

 

Frankly, again, I don't think these two points are as wide apart as you make out. Listening to some brexiteers is like listening to some Scottish nationalists: demands for a free, sovereign, independent state free from interference and pooled sovereignty with (insert union of choice here). 

 

I agree that certain members of the Tory party are nothing more than English nationalists but a lot of their bumpf is off the same hymn sheet as Scottish nationalists.

 

Added to that the referendum results in '16 and '14 were reactionary to something else, austerity and Tory led government. I don't think all are as committed to these causes as we think. Which Progress Scotland's polling seems to show for independence.

 

Sorry but you can't take one poll with a sample of 859 people and make factual claims. 

[The Mighty Thor]

26 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/news/politics/majority-of-scots-want-to-end-freedom-of-movement-post-brexit-1-4657471/amp

 

We aren't though, social attitudes surveys show the same trends in Scotland to that of the wider UK population, even on ending freedom of movement. There is also a noticeable tinge within Scottish political thought against the EU. The SNP aren't exactly big fans of "ever closer union" and the Tories have reservations around CFP and CAP. Added to the euroscepticism of the far left (RISE, SSP etc) and you do have a much more varied view of all this than a Scotland black, England white view of it all.

 

 

Frankly, again, I don't think these two points are as wide apart as you make out. Listening to some brexiteers is like listening to some Scottish nationalists: demands for a free, sovereign, independent state free from interference and pooled sovereignty with (insert union of choice here). 

 

I agree that certain members of the Tory party are nothing more than English nationalists but a lot of their bumpf is off the same hymn sheet as Scottish nationalists.

 

Added to that the referendum results in '16 and '14 were reactionary to something else, austerity and Tory led government. I don't think all are as committed to these causes as we think. Which Progress Scotland's polling seems to show for independence.

I think you're taking a very narrow snapshot of the current political debacle, which is fair enough on a Brexit thread!

I should have been clearer. I'm talking in very broad terms and I do think that we are very different from our neighbours. 

I think Scots have a generally broader outlook, perhaps due to our historical diaspora, whereas I sense England becoming ever more insular, evidenced by a growing, and apparently acceptable, far right.

I base that on nothing more than personal experience I'm afraid. 

 

 

[JAYEL]

3 hours ago, ri Alban said:

You know they voted these MPs in after the EUref result?  Anyway, you think people should elect MPs based on one policy. In voting for brexiteers because of brexit, aye but he's also for NHS privatisation and public killings of minorities.

Yes and I also know that they said they would honour the referendum

 

Labour will regret it at the next GE

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, JAYEL said:

Yes and I also know that they said they would honour the referendum

 

Labour will regret it at the next GE

 

Where? 

 

In Scotland? Or in England?

 

[Costanza]

3 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

To those hoping a 2nd referendum would solve matters, I'm not so sure. 

I think many underestimate the huge numbers of people, predominantly in Englandshire, who are absolutely rabid in their desire to regain England's former glories and to be shot of the hun and all the other Johnny Foreigner types. 

As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, we are very very different from them, socially, culturally and politically. 

'English independence' is a very different beast to what a Scottish independence would look like. 

Every day that passes now is another step down the road to English independence IMO.

I tend to agree with you, that Brexit is in the main a form of English nationalism and one that stretches back to the aftermath of the second world war. 

I just finished a book by Fintan O'Toole which talks a lot about this and the underlying resentment for some people that the country we defeated twice is now the major economic power in Europe and trying to take over by stealth. 

 

Extract from it here:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/16/brexit-paranoid-fantasy-fintan-otoole

 

[vegas-voss]

Hammond wants the government to go for 2nd referendum

[Cade]

Barnier points out the obvious:

[After no-deal] there won’t be many months passing before the UK will start asking for negotiations on a free trade agreement or other issues, like transport.

The topics of Brexit will still be there - Ireland, the financial resolution, the legal obligations of the UK, the issues of citizens and citizens’ rights.

These are questions we will put again and again.

If there is no deal and the UK wants to discuss trade or other subjects, we will put the same subjects back on the table.