Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[...a bit disco]

8 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

Hammond wants the government to go for 2nd referendum

 

Good stuff.

 

To paraphrase The Beat, Stand Down Treeza.

[JAYEL]

2 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Where? 

 

In Scotland? Or in England?

 

I think it is there for all to see

[hughesie27]

I feel 2nd Ref is least likely option.

 

Unless the leave option is specifically Mays Deal.

 

Even then it would cause riots.

[RobboM]

27 minutes ago, Cade said:

Barnier points out the obvious:

[After no-deal] there won’t be many months passing before the UK will start asking for negotiations on a free trade agreement or other issues, like transport.

The topics of Brexit will still be there - Ireland, the financial resolution, the legal obligations of the UK, the issues of citizens and citizens’ rights.

These are questions we will put again and again.

If there is no deal and the UK wants to discuss trade or other subjects, we will put the same subjects back on the table.

Good post!

One of the points about "No Deal" is that it surely (surely???) doesn't mean "Never" deal. So are the No Dealers really arguing that negotiating from a position where exiting without a deal, self evidently, the UK is at a far greater disadvantage than the EU over the exact same issues during a period of chaos. And this is a strategy?

[Unknown user]

[Victorian]

I think the genie is out the bottle on any other referendum.    I have no objection to it because, in theory and logic,  it maybe should be signed off by the public,  now that the terms of Brexit are much better known.    But many thousands of people wont accept it under any circumstances.    I think it would cause a great deal of trouble.    

 

If it prevented a no deal outcome I would happily see a referendum determine the way forward.    But it will be bumpy.

[Francis Albert]

Just now, Victorian said:

I think the genie is out the bottle on any other referendum.    I have no objection to it because, in theory and logic,  it maybe should be signed off by the public,  now that the terms of Brexit are much better known.    But many thousands of people wont accept it under any circumstances.    I think it would cause a great deal of trouble.    

 

If it prevented a no deal outcome I would happily see a referendum determine the way forward.    But it will be bumpy.

Are they?

 

[Mikey1874]

20 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

I feel 2nd Ref is least likely option.

 

Unless the leave option is specifically Mays Deal.

 

Even then it would cause riots.

 

5 minutes ago, Victorian said:

I think the genie is out the bottle on any other referendum.    I have no objection to it because, in theory and logic,  it maybe should be signed off by the public,  now that the terms of Brexit are much better known.    But many thousands of people wont accept it under any circumstances.    I think it would cause a great deal of trouble.    

 

If it prevented a no deal outcome I would happily see a referendum determine the way forward.    But it will be bumpy.

 

2nd referendum is most likely to confirm a final deal.

 

Very unlikely Remain will be an option on it. While current Conservative and Labour positions are in place. 

 

They start and end with delivering the 2016 vote. 

Edited April 2, 2019 by Mikey1874

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

 

2nd referendum is most likely to confirm a final deal.

 

Very unlikely Remain will be an option on it. While current Conservative and Labour positions are in place. 

 

Agreed.   A choice of no deal or whatever other 'deal' can be achieved would cause less anger.    Any choice of remain is the troublesome element.

[Cade]

You can't just have a referendum of "May's Deal or No Deal".

That disenfranchises everybody who voted remain last time.

 

 

The UK is not governed by mob rule.

Gammons cannot be allowed to dictate government policy through the threat of violence.

That is actual fascism.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Cade

[Francis Albert]

20 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

I feel 2nd Ref is least likely option.

 

Unless the leave option is specifically Mays Deal.

 

Even then it would cause riots.

Why riots. I think the majority in the country would accept May's deal (or rather the May/EU deal) as a reasonable compromise in the circumstances. In fact if put to a No Deal/MayEU deal (at present the only choices "on the table" and consistent with the Leave vote) in a referendum I think you'd be talking 90% for the May/EU deal. I haven't seen evidence of strong opposition to it from Leavers

anywhere but the DUP, the UKIP fringe and the tiny ERG fringe of the Tory party - the people we should have ignored before they got us into this mess. And of course Remainers oppose it, but are they really going to riot?

[Francis Albert]

4 minutes ago, Cade said:

You can't just have a referendum of "May's Deal or No Deal".

That disenfranchises everybody who voted remain last time.

 

It disenfranchises them only because they lost the vote when they were enfranchised.

It is not about rerunning the last vote. Or shouldn't be.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Martin_T]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

It disenfranchises them only because they lost the vote when they had when they had their franchise.

It is not about rerunning the last vote.

 

We're going round in circles as per. But given the illegality of the both the leave campaign and indeed the referendum itself are now clear, it makes perfect sense to have 'Remain' on the ballot paper, to validate the first result if for no other reason.

 

Happy to be provided with a source by way of contradiction, but I've personally not seen any evidence at all, of popular support for May's deal in any published opinion poll. 

[Costanza]

31 minutes ago, Smithee said:

That's brilliant 

[Francis Albert]

2 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

 

We're going round in circles as per. But given the illegality of the both the leave campaign and indeed the referendum itself are now clear, it makes perfect sense to have 'Remain' on the ballot paper, to validate the first result if for no other reason.

 

Happy to be provided with a source by way of contradiction, but I've personally not seen any evidence at all, of popular support for May's deal in any published opinion poll. 

If minor campaign illegalities (and I have seen no evidence they affected the vote in any significant way)  were always to result in a re-run every election everywhere would have to be re-run. Repeatedly, probably forever.

[Francis Albert]

4 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

 

We're going round in circles as per. But given the illegality of the both the leave campaign and indeed the referendum itself are now clear, it makes perfect sense to have 'Remain' on the ballot paper, to validate the first result if for no other reason.

 

Happy to be provided with a source by way of contradiction, but I've personally not seen any evidence at all, of popular support for May's deal in any published opinion poll. 

Idon't think I have seen a straight poll choice between No Deal and the May/EU deal. Happy to be contradicted.

[Cade]

MPs now planning to use Parliamentary time on wednesday NOT to bother with more non-binding indicative votes but to actually attempt to pass binding Legislation to block No Deal.

[Martin_T]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

If minor campaign illegalities (and I have seen no evidence they affected the vote in any significant way)  were always to result in a re-run every election everywhere would have to be re-run. Repeatedly, probably forever.

 

Yes evidence is clearly not your forte.

[Costanza]

3 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

 

We're going round in circles as per. But given the illegality of the both the leave campaign and indeed the referendum itself are now clear, it makes perfect sense to have 'Remain' on the ballot paper, to validate the first result if for no other reason.

 

Happy to be provided with a source by way of contradiction, but I've personally not seen any evidence at all, of popular support for May's deal in any published opinion poll. 

An advisory referendum that broke electoral law and an electorate clearly more informed of what leaving the EU means, particularly from business and trade means a new referendum is anti democratic?

We are in a new age of double speak.

[Francis Albert]

Just now, Cade said:

MPs now planning to use Parliamentary time on wednesday NOT to bother with more non-binding indicative votes but to actually attempt to pass binding Legislation to block No Deal.

And if they succeed? We may as well Remain because the EU can write the terms for our staying. As I suspect is the hope of many.

[Francis Albert]

Just now, Costanza said:

An advisory referendum that broke electoral law and an electorate clearly more informed of what leaving the EU means, particularly from business and trade means a new referendum is anti democratic?

We are in a new age of double speak.

How are we more clearly informed?

[Francis Albert]

3 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

 

Yes evidence is clearly not your forte.

I certainly prefer to have some.

[redjambo]

Just now, Francis Albert said:

How are we more clearly informed?

 

In that we now realise it wasn't the simplistic "We leave, we wave the EU goodbye, and everything's rosy in the garden" picture we were painted during the referendum.

 

But you knew that. This thread is always more interesting, educational and productive when you're not on here spouting your "I'm cleverer than all the other posters and will show them I can run logical rings around them" rubbish.

[Costanza]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

How are we more clearly informed?

I'm not even going to bother here

[Francis Albert]

3 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

In that we now realise it wasn't the simplistic "We leave, we wave the EU goodbye, and everything's rosy in the garden" picture we were painted during the referendum.

 

But you knew that. This thread is always more interesting, educational and productive when you're not on here spouting your "I'm cleverer than all the other posters and will show them I can run logical rings around them" rubbish.

We also know that an immediate recession following the Leave vote hasn't happened. For example. A rather more specific one.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Francis Albert

[AlimOzturk]

10 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

How are we more clearly informed?

 

What an utter waste of time you are. If you can't figure that one out on your own then I don't even know why other posters continue to debate with you. 

 

I gave up long ago after your pish about the FOH. 

Edited April 2, 2019 by AlimOzturk

[JAYEL]

3 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Where? 

 

In Scotland? Or in England?

 

Hardly Scotland. FFS

 

 

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

We also know that an immediate recession following the Leave vote hasn't happened. For example. A rather more specific one.

 

Thus providing yet more evidence to the argument that we now know more about Brexit than we did before.

 

We need to stand back and make more rational and informed decisions in accordance with the increased complexity and additional information and arguments which are now facing us. That includes our representatives in Parliament and we the electorate. I wasn't in favour of another referendum before but I'm certainly warming to it now, once of course our MPs can get some sort of proper deal and path forwards sorted out.

[Victorian]

No person of any intelligence could fail to see how the full circumstances of Brexit are much more fully known.     The total refusal to recognise this is simple dishonesty.     I'm also done with him and I urge anyone else to limit the debate to those who are honest contributors.     

[Ibrahim Tall]

In regards to another referendum, if "leave means leave" and people's "opinions haven't changed". Why exactly are 'leave' so resistant to another referendum?

It's surely a formality and a final confirmation of what they already know and will permanently shut up the "re-moaners"? 

[redjambo]

Just now, Victorian said:

No person of any intelligence could fail to see how the full circumstances of Brexit are much more fully known.     The total refusal to recognise this is simple dishonesty.     I'm also done with him and I urge anyone else to limit the debate to those who are honest contributors.     

 

Yeah, I got sucked in again it appears. It irritates me that he gets his jollies in the destructive way he does, but then again perhaps writing angry letters to the editor of the Daily Mail just isn't enough for him. If only that intelligence could be used in a more positive productive way. What a waste.

[AlphonseCapone]

9 minutes ago, Victorian said:

No person of any intelligence could fail to see how the full circumstances of Brexit are much more fully known.     The total refusal to recognise this is simple dishonesty.     I'm also done with him and I urge anyone else to limit the debate to those who are honest contributors.     

 

Yes. I think we've witnessed FA pull off the trolling equivalent of jumping the shark. 

[Martin_T]

5 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Yeah, I got sucked in again it appears. It irritates me that he gets his jollies in the destructive way he does, but then again perhaps writing angry letters to the editor of the Daily Mail just isn't enough for him. If only that intelligence could be used in a more positive productive way. What a waste.

 

Since my dad retired, he has thrown himself into community work, volunteering for the local community council, getting involved charity projects etc. In his spare time beyond that he plays golf, goes to the football or spends time with his grand kids

 

Others however seem to have chosen to get their jollies from relentlessly trolling football discussion forums. 

[eddiepolio]

Somebody on sky news said last night to the people who are saying it's undemocratic to have a second referendum (with remain still an option) the question and understanding has changed so fundamentally it's actually undemocratic NOT to have a second referendum! I agree. 

[XB52]

48 minutes ago, Victorian said:

No person of any intelligence could fail to see how the full circumstances of Brexit are much more fully known.     The total refusal to recognise this is simple dishonesty.     I'm also done with him and I urge anyone else to limit the debate to those who are honest contributors.     

another one who has finally seen the light. Only a few more to go and FA will be howling at the moon on his own

[Notts1874]

38 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

 

Since my dad retired, he has thrown himself into community work, volunteering for the local community council, getting involved charity projects etc. In his spare time beyond that he plays golf, goes to the football or spends time with his grand kids

 

Others however seem to have chosen to get their jollies from relentlessly trolling football discussion forums. 

It's also worth pointing out at the moment that the troll didn't even vote in the referendum.

[Justin Z]

1 hour ago, Costanza said:

I'm not even going to bother here

 

Wise choice.

 

1 hour ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

What an utter waste of time you are. If you can't figure that one out on your own then I don't even know why other posters continue to debate with you. 

 

I gave up long ago after your pish about the FOH. 

 

Not to mention figure it out from the many, many times it's already been asked and discussed in this thread.

 

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

No person of any intelligence could fail to see how the full circumstances of Brexit are much more fully known.     The total refusal to recognise this is simple dishonesty.     I'm also done with him and I urge anyone else to limit the debate to those who are honest contributors.     

 

And report the trolling posts to the moderators--it's worth the minimal effort.

[Cade]

Cabinet out for a lunch break.

Oh to be a fly on the wall in that room today.

 

Actually no, on second thoughts that'd be crap.

Listening to the same three-years-old arguments going around and around in never-ending circles and nothing ever being decided.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Cade

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

As long as revoking article 50 is an option, it should be included in any referendum. 

[Victorian]

5 minutes ago, Cade said:

Cabinet out for a lunch break.

Oh to be a fly on the wall in that room today.

 

Actually no, on second thoughts that'd be crap.

Listening to the same three-years-old arguments going around and around in never-ending circles and nothing ever being decided.

 

Poisonous bunch.      Either trying desperately to force a hard Brexit or playing personal ambition gambits.    Every one placing prime priority on Tory Party implications.     Protect the very existence of the gravy train at all costs.    If other people suffer then so-be-it.

 

Not one of them will be impacted by the damage done.    They are fully insulated on a personal level.     

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

12 minutes ago, Cade said:

Cabinet out for a lunch break.

Oh to be a fly on the wall in that room today.

 

Actually no, on second thoughts that'd be crap.

Listening to the same three-years-old arguments going around and around in never-ending circles and nothing ever being decided.

You'd probably end up as PM. 

[AlphonseCapone]

Anyone watched Laura Kuenssberg's Brexit documentary yet? 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Notts1874 said:

It's also worth pointing out at the moment that the troll didn't even vote in the referendum.

 Wow. I seem to have touched a nerve here! But then most Remainers on here and beyond seem to me lacking in any sense of humour or tolerance or perspective. "Gammons, thick, racist, Ingerlanders, fascists" (and of course old and fortunately dying soon) seems the limit of their understanding of why people voted Leave.

I have explained why, as a reluctant Remainer I didn't vote in the referendum. But because I understand other posters may have missed the explanation or simply ignore it  I am happy to repeat it. My wife is an ardent Leaver, so we agreed since we were out of the country not to go for a postal vote or proxy, but not to vote, as our votes would simply cancel each others out. I will run through this again if the intelligent people who consider others thick have trouble with this explanation.

No-one has actually responded to anything I have posted, but just resorted to personal abuse.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Francis Albert

[ri Alban]

8 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

To those hoping a 2nd referendum would solve matters, I'm not so sure. 

I think many underestimate the huge numbers of people, predominantly in Englandshire, who are absolutely rabid in their desire to regain England's former glories and to be shot of the hun and all the other Johnny Foreigner types. 

As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, we are very very different from them, socially, culturally and politically. 

'English independence' is a very different beast to what a Scottish independence would look like. 

Every day that passes now is another step down the road to English independence IMO.

Do u promise.

[ri Alban]

2 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

I certainly prefer to have some.

Here, ye trapped yer spoon.

[JAYEL]

UK staying in the backstop with N Ireland ( if it ever came to that ) would see Mays deal pass

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

Thus providing yet more evidence to the argument that we now know more about Brexit than we did before.

 

We need to stand back and make more rational and informed decisions in accordance with the increased complexity and additional information and arguments which are now facing us. That includes our representatives in Parliament and we the electorate. I wasn't in favour of another referendum before but I'm certainly warming to it now, once of course our MPs can get some sort of proper deal and path forwards sorted out.

So we know that Remain lied or misled us. As indeed reneged on the promise to invoke Article 50 the day after the referendum vote. And of course on the promise before and after the vote to respect the outcome. We should give Remain another run at it on that basis?

As for how we are better informed on the impact of Leave the only answer seems to be "we know a lot more" and that it is "much more complicated". Certainly that Parliament having voted 85% to hold the referendum and then has no majority for ANY form of leave does complicate things.

 

[AlphonseCapone]

2 minutes ago, JAYEL said:

UK staying in the backstop with N Ireland ( if it ever came to that ) would see Mays deal pass

 

The Government would need to put that down in law as the DUP won't just trust the Tories word. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

So we know that Remain lied or misled us. As indeed reneged on the promise to invoke Article 50 the day after the referendum vote. And of course on the promise before and after the vote to respect the outcome. We should give Remain another run at it on that basis?

As for how we are better informed on the impact of Leave the only answer seems to be "we know a lot more" and that it is "much more complicated". Certainly that Parliament having voted 85% to hold the referendum and then has no majority for ANY form of leave does complicate things.

 

 

Oh FFS please just stop. Do us all a favor and quit putting so much work into your own ignorance.

[Francis Albert]

17 minutes ago, Ugly American said:

 

Oh FFS please just stop. Do us all a favor and quit putting so much work into your own ignorance.

It takes little effort given the substance of the replies. "GO AWAY"  is not an argument.