Board Meeting

[redjambo]

At this time he's incapable of performing his tasks to an adequate level. Part of his job is being able to put out a team that can compete. That is not an opinion.

 

 

Not only is that not what you originally said was your "opinion", but it too is also an opinion, based on your ideas regarding what is an "adequate level" and what it means to "compete".

 

I don't disagree with your statement, by the way, I just don't think you should be saying that it isn't an opinion. Because that is what it certainly is.

[Glamorous Glue]

Agree with this and also your previous post. The pound of flesh approach isn't for me either. I want some careful, considered and dignified resolution to this....not some trashy public fight or panicked knee-jerk decision making.

 

I started off feeling absolutely livid about the whole thing on Saturday but by this morning the increasingly mental rants and demands online (not just here) had put me in a totally different mood. I know it's infuriating and worrying and stressful but it's really not worth the vicious shit that people are coming out with more and more as the day goes on. You started off with a cup exit and 48 hours later we're at a point where some fans have wound themselves up into such a frenzy that they've lost all sense of logic or reason. Ann Budge is evil, she only wants our money, Craig Levein is evil too, oh and so is Cathro because he's deliberately trying to trash us. FOH are probably evil too given that they've "done nothing about any of it" (or words to that effect). In order to feed the seethe people are making up ideas and chucking around assumptions then deciding it's all probably fact. If you're not as angry as the really angry people then the really angry people seem to just get even angrier. Maybe they'll accuse you of being a hibs fan because you're not angry enough. Oh, and EVERYBODY is "arrogant". I don't know how to jump into discussions like that - I'm just completely and utterly baffled by them.

 

The internet doesn't half amplify these things too. If you read this stuff and accepted it as a completely accurate temperature of supporter sentiment, you'd also think the majority were likely heading for some sort of blood pressure issues or just anger management classes at very least.

No one has said anyone is evil.

 

People are angry because the football side of the club is not good enough. Being owner of a football club, you have the responsibility of making the football team the most successful part of the business. This clearly isn't the case at the moment and hasn't been for months. People pay a lot of money to watch football and I would imagine the performance of the team is all that matters to most season ticket holders.

 

It's great having the new stand and Ann and the board are rightly praised for this. However, they also have to face the music on the footballing side. Poor performances, unbalanced squads, key positions never being filled, underperforming players and management, player turnover, etc all have to be addressed. If the footballing side of the club is shit then all the rest going on is irrelevant. If they can't accept the flak then football is the wrong business for them.

[Bring Back Paulo Sergio]

Not only is that not what you originally said was your "opinion", but it too is also an opinion, based on your ideas regarding what is an "adequate level" and what it means to "compete".

 

I don't disagree with your statement, by the way, I just don't think you should be saying that it isn't an opinion. Because that is what it certainly is.

I know. But what is a fact? Some will say it's something that is commonly accepted and known to be true.

 

Mibbie I'm just talking shite.

[ramrod]

The board should make the call now , they are only delaying the inevitable. Unless they are working behind the scenes and possibly with Cathro.

 

Pure speculation but how about, Peter Houston offered the job with Cathro and/or Mcphee staying on at club in coaching roles. Houston earmarked for DoF role when Levein fancies retiring .

 

That would take a bit of time to put together and not that far fetched imo.

[bistokid]

I'm no different from everyone else posting on here and unless something completely unexpected happens over the next couple of weeks, the Cathro experiment has failed and he has to go.

 

However, Mrs Budge is not stupid and will look to treat the guy with dignity. It looks like the top job at Hearts has been a bridge too far for him, but that does not mean he should be hung out to dry, never to have another job in football. He accepted the position and believed he could be successful, he was wrong, and it's up to him to now rebuild his career however he can. I would hazard a guess that the board is evaluating several possibilities over the next couple of weeks and planning accordingly. I'm sure a contingency has to be moving forward without Ian cathro.

 

To those who are calling for Craig Levein and/or Ann Budge to go, have a serious look at yourselves. Without Mrs Budge, there is a very serious likelihood that there would be no HMFC. She stepped in as a fan when the club were on the brink. She is a businesswoman with a track record of success in a multinational before going on to build her own business. She knows all about taking decisions and planning accordingly. That hasn't changed. As for CL - for everyone that is screaming for him to go, what were you saying during the Robbie "experiment" when we won the most difficult non-top tier league by a country mile? Remember something else, although Mrs Budge is a businesswoman, as has been said by many people, football operates very differently from a normal business and I know that CL has been a mentor to her in navigating the shark infested swamp which is the media and politics of out national game. And who would you suggest replace him?

 

Something is clearly wrong with Ian Cathro and his ability to translate all his supposed fine skills to effective performances in the pitch.

 

The leadership at  the club have to accept that a mistake has been made and figure out how to best move on. I believe we have made some good signings. Running around sacking people just for the optics of satisfying those who want to smell blood is not the way to manage this.

 

A good summation. Cathro has failed and should go but the hysteria and push to adopt a scorched earth policy at the first sign of any significant failure isn't going to get us anywhere. Furthermore, things have been worse and I can't remember this level of hostility in relation to where we are at and what has been achieved by the current regime. The nature of things now is that history is but fiction and whoever shouts the loudest knows best. 

 

 

[Rudi5kaceldream1ng]

I know. But what is a fact? Some will say it's something that is commonly accepted and known to be true.

 

Mibbie I'm just talking shite.

 

I know but what is a sentence? Is it a group of words together followed by a full stop or is it watching Ian Cathro's Hearts team?

[Bring Back Paulo Sergio]

"ARROGANT!" is always the first and laziest accusation. Neilson got it, plenty before did too, now it's the turn of Cathro and Levein.

 

If they're referring to the same clip I saw earlier at the end of the penalty shoot-out it didn't look at all like a smirk to me. It looked very much like an awkward sort of pained grimace.

Who called Neilson arrogant? No-one that's who. Some are being lazy with generalisations and it's not the folk calling Cathro arrogant.

[Rocco_Jambo]

You do not know that as being the case. Which kind of negates everything else you say.

 

Why don't you go out there and find some sort of reality to use as the foundation for your attacks on our club.

Read the next sentence "if this is the case" which would suggest if you read it that I'm not stating this as a fact.

 

Why don't you actually read people post's or brush up on the English language before jumping in 2 feet first.

[socrates82]

A good summation. Cathro has failed and should go but the hysteria and push to adopt a scorched earth policy at the first sign of any significant failure isn't going to get us anywhere. Furthermore, things have been worse and I can't remember this level of hostility in relation to where we are at and what has been achieved by the current regime. The nature of things now is that history is but fiction and whoever shouts the loudest knows best. 

 

 

 

Yep it's bizarre. Managers come and go. Neilson was good and was hounded out. Cathro was bad and is being hounded out. I agree now he has to go but some were trying to get him out after a handful of games. Where does it end? They do the same with players - judging them on a few appearances.

 

Some supporters need to be a bit more selective with their moans and have a bit of perspective if they want their opinions to be taken seriously by fellow fans, let alone the club. Right now I wouldn't blame the club for ignoring supporter views entirely after the Neilson nonsense.

[Jodami]

My understanding is if we want rid of Cathro there are 2 options. First is the gardening leave option of paying him his weekly salary until he finds another position and the other is paying off his contract. Paying off his contract is unlikely to be the remainder of the entire deal though. Most managers contracts set the pay off at one year's salary or thereabouts.

[redm]

No one has said anyone is evil.

 

People are angry because the football side of the club is not good enough. Being owner of a football club, you have the responsibility of making the football team the most successful part of the business. This clearly isn't the case at the moment and hasn't been for months. People pay a lot of money to watch football and I would imagine the performance of the team is all that matters to most season ticket holders.

 

It's great having the new stand and Ann and the board are rightly praised for this. However, they also have to face the music on the footballing side. Poor performances, unbalanced squads, key positions never being filled, underperforming players and management, player turnover, etc all have to be addressed. If the footballing side of the club is shit then all the rest going on is irrelevant. If they can't accept the flak then football is the wrong business for them.

 

 

See, if more posts were like this I wouldn't have made the one I did above. I'm not talking about differences of opinion or a fair and balanced evaluation of the current situation. I'm talking about the rafts and rafts of posts suggesting that Levein/Cathro/Budge are all blinded by arrogance or an insatiable lust for making cash and are therefore deliberately and knowingly making decisions which don't just benefit them first, but are hugely damaging to the club. They're ignoring the fans, treating them with contempt, laughing at them in full view of the TV cameras. Ruining the club. Taking our cash from us and mocking us. Malevolent and selfish, like pantomine baddies - it's ridiculous stuff. I'm kind of grateful for it in a weird way though because it calmed me the heck down when I saw it all.  A smack in the face from some outrageous hysteria is brilliant for levelling you out.

[269miles]

Yep it's bizarre. Managers come and go. Neilson was good and was hounded out. Cathro was bad and is being hounded out. I agree now he has to go but some were trying to get him out after a handful of games. Where does it end? They do the same with players - judging them on a few appearances.

 

Some supporters need to be a bit more selective with their moans and have a bit of perspective if they want their opinions to be taken seriously by fellow fans, let alone the club. Right now I wouldn't blame the club for ignoring supporter views entirely after the Neilson nonsense.

I couldn't care less what my "fellow fans" think. 

 

RN wasn't hounded out of the club - plenty of people wanted him to stay but change the dire football we were watching. 

 

As for judging players on a  few games -  seems to me the club are biggest culprits at this. We'll need a revolving door on the players entrance of the new stand at the rate we recruit and bin players. 

[dellboy1971]

Discussing Cathro win bonuses he's wanting pay rise lol

[Mars plastic]

Yep it's bizarre. Managers come and go. Neilson was good and was hounded out. Cathro was bad and is being hounded out. I agree now he has to go but some were trying to get him out after a handful of games. Where does it end? They do the same with players - judging them on a few appearances.

 

Some supporters need to be a bit more selective with their moans and have a bit of perspective if they want their opinions to be taken seriously by fellow fans, let alone the club. Right now I wouldn't blame the club for ignoring supporter views entirely after the Neilson nonsense.

Everyone knows he was your hero, but ffs, please stop dribbling pish that he was hounded out.

[Bring Back Paulo Sergio]

Everyone knows he was your hero, but ffs, please stop dribbling pish that he was hounded out.

I'm the biggest Neilson supporter going and he's even seriously begging to annoy the **** out me. Trying to use Neilson as a stick to beat everyone with even though the majority were in favour of keeping him.

 

He needs to STFU about Neilson, brings him up on every thread.

[skodef]

Why has the twat no resigned yet .Seriously Whit the actual ****.

 

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[socrates82]

Everyone knows he was your hero, but ffs, please stop dribbling pish that he was hounded out.

 

A plane was flown over the stadium with a banner asking for his removal. A plane. Over the stadium. With a banner. When we were doing fine. The most embarrassing moment in my Hearts supporting life.

 

Yes, I'm sure that and the constant booing and negativity from the terraces where we were doing comparatively well, encouraged him to stay when he was making his final decision.

 

The point is, NEXT time can some fans have a bit more perspective? Because, you know, they got their wish and look where we needed up.

[269miles]

Discussing Cathro win bonuses he's wanting pay rise lol

Long term service award. 

[269miles]

A plane was flown over the stadium with a banner asking for his removal. A plane. Over the stadium. With a banner. When we were doing fine. The most embarrassing moment in my Hearts supporting life.

 

Yes, I'm sure that and the constant booing and negativity from the terraces where we were doing comparatively well, encouraged him to stay when he was making his final decision.

 

The point is, NEXT time can some fans have a bit more perspective? Because, you know, they got their wish and look where we needed up.

Yeah, we know. The majority of fans did not get their wish - the majority wanted him  to stay.  Why can't you accept that ? The football was bloody dire - or were you watching something  else.  Stop hijacking the thread. 

[skodef]

You know something there is a saying be careful what you wish for and boy oh boy we got Carthorse. Seriously wish Nelson had stayed. We wouldn't be out the League cup group stages. FACT.

 

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[hmfcbilly]

Why has the twat no resigned yet .Seriously Whit the actual ****.

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Yep this is where I'm at. Been checking kickback all day as well as the usual online media outlets in the hope he is finally away. 8 wins in 30 competitive matches isn't good enough for ANY team. Surely we don't need to waste any more time on this failed experiment? He's had a full pre season, got players in he's supposedly happy with and not a thing has changed. Let's not forget we were 2nd when Nelson left. Those same players ended up 5th with their form in 2nd half of last season. GET HIM OUT NOW!!!!!

[Mars plastic]

A plane was flown over the stadium with a banner asking for his removal. A plane. Over the stadium. With a banner. When we were doing fine. The most embarrassing moment in my Hearts supporting life.

 

Yes, I'm sure that and the constant booing and negativity from the terraces where we were doing comparatively well, encouraged him to stay when he was making his final decision.

 

The point is, NEXT time can some fans have a bit more perspective? Because, you know, they got their wish and look where we needed up.

He did a bolt pronto to MK after we gave him his big break. What a great guy.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Correct.

 

What's the point in exposing Daly and Kirk to this start of the season with 4 away games.

 

Might as well be Cathro for that run.

What a well run club we are. Hanging out a busted flush to dry during the first four games of a new season.

[socrates82]

Yeah, we know. The majority of fans did not get their wish - the majority wanted him  to stay.  Why can't you accept that ? The football was bloody dire - or were you watching something  else.  Stop hijacking the thread. 

 

The football wasn't dire at all. What is this style over points thing all of a sudden? That's incredibly Hibs and look where it got them. We were just in a bit of a lull and yet we were up in 2nd. We humped Rangers playing great stuff. We were scoring for fun away (also conceding bad goals unfortunately) and on a 5 game unbeaten run.

 

I replied to someone who said fans need to have some perspective. Some are acting the same way with Cathro as they did with Neilson. Enough wanted Neilson out for it to make the press. It was a sizeable or rather loud minority sadly. And then there was the plane.... how anyone can defend that is beyond me.

[socrates82]

He did a bolt pronto to MK after we gave him his big break. What a great guy.

 

You should be happy - you wanted him out. How much did the plane cost you?

[Rudy T]

Scoop....

 

The delay in Cathro's Dismissal is a direct result of him negotiating his own package. He's been talking in riddles for 9 hours they're only at PowerPoint slide 3 of 12 and no one has a ****ing clue what he's talking about.

[sam?]

My understanding is if we want rid of Cathro there are 2 options. First is the gardening leave option of paying him his weekly salary until he finds another position and the other is paying off his contract. Paying off his contract is unlikely to be the remainder of the entire deal though. Most managers contracts set the pay off at one year's salary or thereabouts.

Cathros contract at his request has a six month pay off clause; if anyone bigger comes in minimal compensation required however that also works the other way when sacked.

 

Another sign of his confidence/arrogance in contract negotiations

[tolcross lad]

Agree with this and also your previous post. The pound of flesh approach isn't for me either. I want some careful, considered and dignified resolution to this....not some trashy public fight or panicked knee-jerk decision making.

 

I started off feeling absolutely livid about the whole thing on Saturday but by this morning the increasingly mental rants and demands online (not just here) had put me in a totally different mood. I know it's infuriating and worrying and stressful but it's really not worth the vicious shit that people are coming out with more and more as the day goes on. You started off with a cup exit and 48 hours later we're at a point where some fans have wound themselves up into such a frenzy that they've lost all sense of logic or reason. Ann Budge is evil, she only wants our money, Craig Levein is evil too, oh and so is Cathro because he's deliberately trying to trash us. FOH are probably evil too given that they've "done nothing about any of it" (or words to that effect).  In order to feed the seethe people are making up ideas and chucking around assumptions then deciding it's all probably fact. If you're not as angry as the really angry people then the really angry people seem to just get even angrier. Maybe they'll accuse you of being a hibs fan because you're not angry enough. Oh, and EVERYBODY is "arrogant". I don't know how to jump into discussions like that - I'm just completely and utterly baffled by them.

 

The internet doesn't half amplify these things too. If you read this stuff and accepted it as a completely accurate temperature of supporter sentiment, you'd also think the majority were likely heading for some sort of blood pressure issues or just anger management classes at very least.

 

I cant recall the word "evil" being used.Maybe it has but I have no sense that posters consider Levein this way.Nor have I detected that many posters think Cathro is deliberately trying to" trash" us .In life you will always get individuals who swing to extremes in a crisis and this forum reflects that.Most posters even the most angry have given their reasons for their opinions and a big majority think that Cathro is unsuited to the job and substantial number think that Levein is making bad decisions and should go in the best interests of the club.

I am not sure what you expect.There were was time in our history when we nearly sleeped walked into oblivion and thats not going to happen again.There was a time when these kind of arguments would rage in the local pub.less so nowadays.There were always mental rants.

Arrogance - having and revealing an exaggerated sense of ones own self importance and abilities.

IMO this description is apt for Cathro and Levein

[michael_bolton]

Cathros contract at his request has a six month pay off clause; if anyone bigger comes in minimal compensation required however that also works the other way when sacked.

 

Another sign of his confidence/arrogance in contract negotiations

 

Honestly, you couldn't make some people up.

 

You are aware that this clause (if it even exists and I'm not sure how anyone would know that) makes it just as easy for him to be fired as it does for him to move on?

 

Cathro could do absolutely anything and people would call him arrogant. It's actually getting funny now.

 

I wonder how arrogantly he gets in and out of a car. Or drinks a coffee. Or if he looks particularly smug and arrogant as he crosses a road.

 

[Jodami]

Cathros contract at his request has a six month pay off clause; if anyone bigger comes in minimal compensation required however that also works the other way when sacked.

 

Another sign of his confidence/arrogance in contract negotiations

Cheers Sam wasn't aware of that. It would seem a pretty straightforward sacking then which makes the delay suggest he will be staying. Quite unbelievably short sighted decision, no manager could ever retrieve this situation.

[JyTees]

Cathros contract at his request has a six month pay off clause; if anyone bigger comes in minimal compensation required however that also works the other way when sacked.

 

Another sign of his confidence/arrogance in contract negotiations

I've said as much a page or two back. Cathro still being employed by Hearts at this moment in time has absolutely nothing to do with finances.

[MacDonald Jardine]

A plane was flown over the stadium with a banner asking for his removal. A plane. Over the stadium. With a banner. When we were doing fine. The most embarrassing moment in my Hearts supporting life.

 

Yes, I'm sure that and the constant booing and negativity from the terraces where we were doing comparatively well, encouraged him to stay when he was making his final decision.

 

The point is, NEXT time can some fans have a bit more perspective? Because, you know, they got their wish and look where we needed up.

Personally I found relegation, not coming up and losing to Hibs 6-2 more embarassing but you crack on.

[269miles]

 What is this style over points thing all of a sudden?That's incredibly Hibs and look where it got them. We were just in a bit of a lull and yet we were up in 2nd. We humped Rangers playing great stuff. We were scoring for fun away (also conceding bad goals unfortunately) and on a 5 game unbeaten run.

 It was a sizeable or rather loud minority sadly. And then there was the plane.... how anyone can defend that is beyond me.

I replied to someone who said fans need to have some perspective. Some are acting the same way with Cathro as they did with Neilson. Enough wanted Neilson out for it to make the press.

You're talking bollocks and putting words in my mouth. 

 

The football wasn't dire at all. - there are plenty who disagree, Honest, I'm not making this up.

 

 What is this style over points thing all of a sudden?  - You tell me, your words , not mine.

 

 We were scoring for fun away - seriously. 

 

 It was a sizeable or rather loud minority sadly. - well at least we agree on that.

 

And then there was the plane.... how anyone can defend that is beyond me - you're just making stuff up now. 

[sam?]

Honestly, you couldn't make some people up.

 

You are aware that this clause (if it even exists and I'm not sure how anyone would know that) makes it just as easy for him to be fired as it does for him to move on?

 

Cathro could do absolutely anything and people would call him arrogant. It's actually getting funny now.

 

I wonder how arrogantly he gets in and out of a car. Or drinks a coffee. Or if he looks particularly smug and arrogant as he crosses a road.

 

It does exist, I'm privy to bits and bobs of info that is one of the bits .. I also mentioned confidence or arrogance not one or the other .. but he asked for it on the basis someone would come in for him if he did well.

[socrates82]

You're talking bollocks and putting words in my mouth. 

 

The football wasn't dire at all. - there are plenty who disagree, Honest, I'm not making this up.

 

 What is this style over points thing all of a sudden?  - You tell me, your words , not mine.

 

 We were scoring for fun away - seriously. 

 

 It was a sizeable or rather loud minority sadly. - well at least we agree on that.

 

And then there was the plane.... how anyone can defend that is beyond me - you're just making stuff up now. 

 

Style of play is all subjective. I'm happy if we leave the ground with points on the board and we did that more often than not under Neilson. I don't see you condemning the plane or the other ejects who hounded Neilson for reasons known only to themselves.

[socrates82]

Personally I found relegation, not coming up and losing to Hibs 6-2 more embarassing but you crack on.

 

Really? Those are just football things every club experiences. That was a genuine embarrassment few clubs experience and far too many seem to forgive it.

[Ferryjambo99]

You know something there is a saying be careful what you wish for and boy oh boy we got Carthorse. Seriously wish Nelson had stayed. We wouldn't be out the League cup group stages. FACT.

 

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We wouldn't even be in the group stages to begin with because we'd have had European football

[mitch41]

The board should make the call now , they are only delaying the inevitable. Unless they are working behind the scenes and possibly with Cathro.

 

Pure speculation but how about, Peter Houston offered the job with Cathro and/or Mcphee staying on at club in coaching roles. Houston earmarked for DoF role when Levein fancies retiring .

 

That would take a bit of time to put together and not that far fetched imo.

That's Peter Houston who is Craig Levein's mate. Is this the best you can come up with. Hearts troubles all have one common denominater

Craig Levein. He has the ear of Ann Budge and while he continues in his DOF role we will continue to fail.

[jambo1961]

No board meeting ..cheers

[MacDonald Jardine]

Really? Those are just football things every club experiences. That was a genuine embarrassment few clubs experience and far too many seem to forgive it.

Because I could see where it was coming from.

Our form has nosedived under Cathro but it wasn't great under Neilson either.

 

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[AlimOzturk]

Because I could see where it was coming from.

Our form has nosedived under Cathro but it wasn't great under Neilson either.

 

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Good enough to be second in the league.

 

We had just humped rangers as well.

 

Team was playing well. Despite having Sammon lead the line.

[redjambo]

I know. But what is a fact? Some will say it's something that is commonly accepted and known to be true.

 

Mibbie I'm just talking shite.

 

Nah, I'm just being pernickety. It's one of my natural states.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/skillswise/factsheet/en06opin-l1-f-what-is-fact-and-opinion

[Mac80]

Away n **** with ur Neilson Pish.

 

That's in the past.

[socrates82]

Away n **** with ur Neilson Pish.

 

That's in the past.

 

Relevant to the future though if it stops people being such arseholes again to the detriment of the club.

[socrates82]

Because I could see where it was coming from.

Our form has nosedived under Cathro but it wasn't great under Neilson either.

 

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We were on a 5 game unbeaten run when he left, with a win over Rangers in his last. His team then got a draw under the caretakers the next weeks. So 6 games unbeaten - it was some of the best form in the league at that time. It was form that had us in 2nd/3rd in touch with Rangers and Aberdeen and way, way ahead of St J.

 

If by form you mean performances weren't as swashbuckling as you'd like, well I can say that about 80% of Hearts games I watch under every manager we've ever had.

[Bring Back Paulo Sergio]

We were on a 5 game unbeaten run when he left, with a win over Rangers in his last. His team then got a draw under the caretakers the next weeks. So 6 games unbeaten - it was some of the best form in the league at that time. It was form that had us in 2nd/3rd in touch with Rangers and Aberdeen and way, way ahead of St J.

 

If by form you mean performances weren't as swashbuckling as you'd like, well I can say that about 80% of Hearts games I watch under every manager we've ever had.

If you're trying to highlight how stupid and incredibly naive you were for wanting Cathro to be given the start of this season you're doing a grand job!

[Shrekeo]

That's Peter Houston who is Craig Levein's mate. Is this the best you can come up with. Hearts troubles all have one common denominater

Craig Levein. He has the ear of Ann Budge and while he continues in his DOF role we will continue to fail.

I think you may have mentioned this once or twice!

[socrates82]

If you're trying to highlight how stupid and incredibly naive you were for wanting Cathro to be given the start of this season you're doing a grand job!

 

Just as well I wasn't trying to do that then! I tend to back managers until I read a point where I can't. I just reached that point with Cathro!

[Shanks]

If the fans all loved neilson and worshipped the ground he walked on he still would have left for the mighty MK Dons. So can all the pussies crying about the fans forcing him out just calm down and get over it.

[Bring Back Paulo Sergio]

Just as well I wasn't trying to do that then!

Whether it was your intention or not...

 

Most agree with you about Neilson but banging on about him achieves nothing! So what if they were wrong about Neilson. They're right about Cathro and that's all that matters.