Iain Cathro ongoing Poll and discussion Thread

[Debut 4]

So you wouldn't go through a bit pain for a title winning side? I think that's sound logic. Not that I think we're anywhere near that but I'd gladly take some pain for that scenario.

If I had a crystal ball it'd be easy to answer.

 

The point I made was, what's the acceptable level of inconsistency if we are to believe it'll all come good eventually?

 

How do you view an emerging team and it's performances?

 

There's absolutely no guarantees.

 

My feeling is we should be able to be competitive at first team level every year. Bringing through young players has been a constant throughout time.

 

A style or different way of developing talent and improving ability happens at youth level and if in time we drip feed young players to a point that we have some very competent players who take us to a new level, then fair enough.

 

But that doesn't mean we wait. We should always be ready at first team level.

[Ivan Drago]

The folk defending Cathro are bonkers mate. Like they will literally make stuff up to troll people.

They remind me of the people who still insist the earth is flat.

[Prince Buaben]

They remind me of the people who still insist the earth is flat.

 

http://metro.co.uk/2017/05/21/flat-earther-used-a-spirit-level-to-prove-that-the-earth-is-flat-6650755/

[Silvery_Moon]

Sergio pumped Hibs in the league 3 times, Rangers at Ibrox, Celtic at Tynie and had us top 6 without the Scottish cup. To compare hom with Cathro is mental.

Skelped Aberdeen a couple of times too. That was par for the course in those days though

[kingantti1874]

Sergio pumped Hibs in the league 3 times, Rangers at Ibrox, Celtic at Tynie and had us top 6 without the Scottish cup. To compare hom with Cathro is mental.

Thankfully someone has said it.. No comparison.. Paulo is a legend and did a great job.. man had talent and first class banter.

[kingantti1874]

Sergio pumped Hibs in the league 3 times, Rangers at Ibrox, Celtic at Tynie and had us top 6 without the Scottish cup. To compare hom with Cathro is mental.

Thankfully someone has said it.. No comparison.. Paulo is a legend and did a great job.. man had talent and first class banter.

[redjambo]

They remind me of the people who still insist the earth is flat.

 

You shouldn't really have a go at flat earthers - it's becoming an increasingly popular belief. They have members all around the globe!

[151]

You shouldn't really have a go at flat earthers - it's becoming an increasingly popular belief. They have members all around the globe!

Nice

[Thomaso]

Then robbie oot brigade for example certainly deserve what they got

Aye right you are - and this numpty Cathro was the only option was he???

[KingRudiSkacel51]

Aye right you are - and this numpty Cathro was the only option was he???

Like all of his signings he looked a good choice on paper

 

 

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[kingantti1874]

Where are the mods these days .

[jambopilms]

I don't see the mad rush to get rid of him. We get a new manager and we end up 3rd/4th and get into Europe and people will moan that the football isn't attractive enough and the season starts too soon. There isn't really much to gain or loose. I do think that they will invest more than they might of otherwise as they want cathro to work. So if it is a shit start next season he gets the sack and we have a reasonable squad for the new man to deal with.

[kingantti1874]

I don't see the mad rush to get rid of him. We get a new manager and we end up 3rd/4th and get into Europe and people will moan that the football isn't attractive enough and the season starts too soon. There isn't really much to gain or loose. I do think that they will invest more than they might of otherwise as they want cathro to work. So if it is a shit start next season he gets the sack and we have a reasonable squad for the new man to deal with.

Because the footy under Cathro is attractive?

[jambopilms]

Because the footy under Cathro is attractive?

The point was that whoever we get in will still have ups and downs and the same people will loose their shit as much as possible. This place will still be awful because levein and budge are still in charge. What the point in changing right now, it's not like we are aiming for the title any time soon. So what if we miss out on Europe it's not as if it hasn't happened every second year anyway. Lets see what he can do and get behind the team for a few months then get rid if it's no better.

[Thomaso]

Like all of his signings he looked a good choice on paper

 

 

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Was he??? He had absolutely no experience whatsoever as a Head Coach or Managet!

[mitch41]

5 wins out of 26 games and a few people want Cathro to stay because he hasn't learned to manage a football club yet and it's all the players fault. I've heard it all now lol. I just can't stop laughing.

[Thomaso]

Where are the mods these days .

 

What would you like moderated?

[kingantti1874]

What would you like moderated?

The extremely obvious hobos.. not you obviously

[Escobar PHM]

Bear in mind (no pun intended) that this is my most positive spin on things, and depending on my mood I think this is a lot of wishful thinking. That said...

 

I've written elsewhere that Neilson had a pretty rigid system when it came to the back six.  Two CHs who could pass out of the back, two defensive mids directly in front of them routing traffic, and two fullbacks that were expected to range forward in certain situations but always get back to cover. The goal in his system was to hold possession, pass it around, and depending on the attacking system in front of them (which Neilson changed up on a weekly basis) cut open the opponents with incisive passes. When this worked, it absolutely gutted teams, and in a way it was designed specifically to be one of the better clubs in British football, where smaller clubs routinely park the bus on bigger clubs and try to hit on counter attacks. But after the first round of games up in the top flight, clubs realized if they pressured the CHs and DMs and broke up the passes, the system fell apart and we had to resort to long diagonal passes to go over it.

 

Neilson's response to this was to go looking for players who could beat the pressure. In our previous signing policy, this meant looking for some high risk/high reward players with the chance that maybe we'd find a diamond in the rough that could maintain our passing game under pressure.  Specifically, he wanted big, athletic players who didn't seem to be fulfilling their potential.  That's how we ended up with Osh, Rherras, Watt, and other dross as well as good players like Djoum, Souttar, and Kitchen. (Based on everything we've heard, I now think Tziolis and Avlonitas were identified before Cathro arrived for this reason.) We ended up with a squad which even with injuries probably could have finished third this season and maybe snuck a win over Celtic at Tynecastle.

 

While I enjoyed Neilson's squads plenty, they did seem to have hit a ceiling, and we simply don't have the funds to bring in dependable players that could make us good enough to finish higher than third or fourth every season.

 

Cathro looked at this and said naw, if we're going to be ambitious, it's not going to be by getting physically superior players and putting them in a rigid system.  It's going to be by getting clever, hard working players and putting them in a flexible system where they can work together.

 

So he blew up Neilson's ever-present double-pivot and put Tziolis in at the base.  He told the attacking players to scramble and to not hold rigid positions. He told the fullbacks to press forward.

 

But the players clearly didn't understand everything from the off.  With only a single DM, the CH's got overrun.  The attacking players didn't understand their roles so ran into each other and passed to nobody repeatedly. And our fullbacks were just bad.

 

When you don't understand what you're supposed to be doing, you get frustrated and stop playing hard. And that's what we saw this season over and over again.

 

My take in January or February was that Cathro was flushing a window of opportunity to challenge for second down the toilet by changing everything all at once, and that he clearly wasn't getting the players to understand what he wanted them to do.  My attempt to be optimistic now is that he knew there would be growing pains but thought the players could get through them faster.  Certainly Cowie seems to have figured out how to play in the system, and we're starting to see signs that Nicholson is getting the clue too.

 

In any case, there's at least a chance that with a full summer of training and bonding outside of the spotlights of the season, the players will figure out how to make Cathro's system work.  If that happens, well hell, maybe we come storming out of the gates like we did in Robbie's first season.

Thats a pretty fair assessment of the tail end of Neilson's reign and the first 6 months under Cathro.

 

Neilson had a strategy that worked defensively for the most part but those sides had a lack of threat and a lack of ambition further forward. Once they worked us out, we were more and more vulnerable to the high press and we ended up in a bit of a mess, which would have got worse in my opinion. Not as bad as what actually happened under Cathro of course but we'd have slipped down the table and 4th was where we were heading.

 

Quite a few people have opined that the season was 'written off' by Levein as soon as Neilson left and Cathro came in. It was known that Cathro wanted to revolutionise the way we play. It was known that we didn't have the squad to do it that season. It was known that we had accumulated enough points to not get into serious trouble, and so a rebuild started whereby he was allowed to bring in players on what amounts to a 6 month trial.

 

The biggest problem with this was we had a cup tie against Hibs and we performed horribly in it. I think if that hadn't happened, then what Cathro is and was trying to do might have been more understood and tolerated.

 

The 6 months trials have been a mistake and a failure and here we are back to square one having to rebuild a squad from scratch. The only saving grace is that he's got 6 months under his belt and a blank sheet of paper and a bit more time to fill it.

 

He is going to get the summer and the first 10 games. I have no doubts about it. I think he will fail. I dont think he knows enough. I think the job is way too big for him. I dont think his preferred way of playing football and the type of player he likes and wants will be the right kind of team and players to challenge at the top end of this league. Whats more, I think its already proven and I think we should have corrected the gross error his appointment was by ditching him this week.

[Nookie Bear]

Bear in mind (no pun intended) that this is my most positive spin on things, and depending on my mood I think this is a lot of wishful thinking. That said...

 

I've written elsewhere that Neilson had a pretty rigid system when it came to the back six.  Two CHs who could pass out of the back, two defensive mids directly in front of them routing traffic, and two fullbacks that were expected to range forward in certain situations but always get back to cover. The goal in his system was to hold possession, pass it around, and depending on the attacking system in front of them (which Neilson changed up on a weekly basis) cut open the opponents with incisive passes. When this worked, it absolutely gutted teams, and in a way it was designed specifically to be one of the better clubs in British football, where smaller clubs routinely park the bus on bigger clubs and try to hit on counter attacks. But after the first round of games up in the top flight, clubs realized if they pressured the CHs and DMs and broke up the passes, the system fell apart and we had to resort to long diagonal passes to go over it.

 

Neilson's response to this was to go looking for players who could beat the pressure. In our previous signing policy, this meant looking for some high risk/high reward players with the chance that maybe we'd find a diamond in the rough that could maintain our passing game under pressure.  Specifically, he wanted big, athletic players who didn't seem to be fulfilling their potential.  That's how we ended up with Osh, Rherras, Watt, and other dross as well as good players like Djoum, Souttar, and Kitchen. (Based on everything we've heard, I now think Tziolis and Avlonitas were identified before Cathro arrived for this reason.) We ended up with a squad which even with injuries probably could have finished third this season and maybe snuck a win over Celtic at Tynecastle.

 

While I enjoyed Neilson's squads plenty, they did seem to have hit a ceiling, and we simply don't have the funds to bring in dependable players that could make us good enough to finish higher than third or fourth every season.

 

Cathro looked at this and said naw, if we're going to be ambitious, it's not going to be by getting physically superior players and putting them in a rigid system.  It's going to be by getting clever, hard working players and putting them in a flexible system where they can work together.

 

So he blew up Neilson's ever-present double-pivot and put Tziolis in at the base.  He told the attacking players to scramble and to not hold rigid positions. He told the fullbacks to press forward.

 

But the players clearly didn't understand everything from the off.  With only a single DM, the CH's got overrun.  The attacking players didn't understand their roles so ran into each other and passed to nobody repeatedly. And our fullbacks were just bad.

 

When you don't understand what you're supposed to be doing, you get frustrated and stop playing hard. And that's what we saw this season over and over again.

 

My take in January or February was that Cathro was flushing a window of opportunity to challenge for second down the toilet by changing everything all at once, and that he clearly wasn't getting the players to understand what he wanted them to do.  My attempt to be optimistic now is that he knew there would be growing pains but thought the players could get through them faster.  Certainly Cowie seems to have figured out how to play in the system, and we're starting to see signs that Nicholson is getting the clue too.

 

In any case, there's at least a chance that with a full summer of training and bonding outside of the spotlights of the season, the players will figure out how to make Cathro's system work.  If that happens, well hell, maybe we come storming out of the gates like we did in Robbie's first season.

 

Further to my last response, what you believe Cathro is doing is still not that groundbreaking, I would imagine every manager (even 'defensive' guys like Pulis and Allardyce) want to go out and play a more expansive game, but they know that results are more important and that you simply cannot play that way on their relative budgets.

 

It also still does not excuse his inability to identify that and get the best out of this group of players and that remains the biggest concern for me.

 

Seems like Cathro wants a level playing field, a clean slate, where he has a full pre-season, no injuries, his own squad and an environment where results don't seem to matter too much because of the Bigger Picture. That isn't going to happen. He needs to let Levein worry about the big picture, assess the players he has in front of him, and the ones he will start next season with (who will not be that much better than what we have now, if we're lucky) and concentrate on the next game.

[Bellion]

Further to my last response, what you believe Cathro is doing is still not that groundbreaking, I would imagine every manager (even 'defensive' guys like Pulis and Allardyce) want to go out and play a more expansive game, but they know that results are more important and that you simply cannot play that way on their relative budgets.

 

It also still does not excuse his inability to identify that and get the best out of this group of players and that remains the biggest concern for me.

 

Seems like Cathro wants a level playing field, a clean slate, where he has a full pre-season, no injuries, his own squad and an environment where results don't seem to matter too much because of the Bigger Picture. That isn't going to happen. He needs to let Levein worry about the big picture, assess the players he has in front of him, and the ones he will start next season with (who will not be that much better than what we have now, if we're lucky) and concentrate on the next game.

I don't think guys like Pulis and Allardyce do want to play decent football, actually, but I understand that some managers might just be pragmatists because of the situation they're in (take Mark Hughes as an example of someone whose teams have evolved into more sophisticated outfits over time, something Pulis's have never done).

 

Regardless, the brand of football employed by guys like Pulis is always limited. It will only ever work, and appeal to fans, to a certain degree, which is why those guys don't tend to get really big jobs, or last long if they do. I think Tommy Wright comes into this category too, albeit at a different level. It is fine as long as you're achieving the maximum your club realistically can (mid table EPL side or regular top 6 finishes respectively) but it gets very tedious very quickly if you're not. 

 

I think Cathro is a little different in terms of ambition. I'm not at all convinced he's right, but I think he believes that if he instills a certain playing philosophy, he will be able to get us to rise above our place in the usual order of things. I think if you employed a "traditional" manager (let's use Wright as an example), you'd hear very different noises every week, e.g. "we'll never have the biggest budget, but we'll be organised/hard to beat/no-one will enjoy playing us". And to a point that's fine, but the reality is that the bigger teams usually do find those teams quite easy to beat and do enjoy playing them most of the time, particularly in Scotland. 

 

I think our current management want to do something a bit more ambitious in the long-term than nick the occasional result or go on the odd cup run, and they're willing to make short-term concessions and sacrifices to get to where we want to be in the long-term. I completely see how farcical that might seem when we're as bad as we are now, and I'm not going to apologise for them for much longer. I have very real doubts that Cathro will ever be able to do what he wants with our budget and at our level, and I want to see some proof that it will work. But I think he is trying to do something more ambitious than most managers ever do, and I don't know that it won't work. 

[deejtee]

I don't get the traditional manager bit. St Johnstone are a pretty decent team that enjoys success beyond their finances. Cathro has not actually got some new and groundbreaking theories and I don't see this bit about him needing players we can't afford to succeed. Give many managers players we can't afford we will improve until we go bust again. Are Rogers and Mcinnes groundbreakers or just good experienced managers? They have better players than us especially Celtic but I doubt their fans would welcome Cathro to take them up a level. Anyway off to the golf course.

[Busby8]

5 wins out of 26 games and a few people want Cathro to stay because he hasn't learned to manage a football club yet and it's all the players fault. I've heard it all now lol. I just can't stop laughing.

 

He's done absolutely nothing to suggest that he is worth retaining, yet we are letting him loose with the summer player budget at a time in our existence that we can least afford to.

 

Don't get me wrong, I chose to buy into the Carhro hype when he was appointed.

After all the Budge/Levein succession planning model is a well oiled machine, .... and they stand or fall by these crucial appointments. They knew their man. They knew who they were getting to lead us.

Having known comparatively little of Cathro previously, I believed we were getting the cream of the crop, the top young manager available with revolutionary ideas.

And wasn't it fantastic that our very own DOF had the inside track on this guy and was able to bring him on board.

Sure, he didn't have any real managerial experience, but hey, that wouldn't matter as he's bound to have great inter personal skills and will endear himself to the media and the fans in an instant.

He'll be able to relate to the players easily and get them playing the exciting football that we know they are capable of.

You know what, I couldn't wait !

 

6 months down the line and we are left with a shambles and a new season approaching.

The great new innovative ideas, which I'd think may well have been the main selling point on his CV, just aren't there. It was all hype after all !!

He's like a rabbit caught in the headlights during interviews, and instead of having the media eating out of his hands they seem more inclined to be hanging around, eagerly waiting to hear his next nugget of nonsense, (the Celtic and goalposts quote springs to mind).

God knows how he is relating to the players either.  

I've never seen such a demotivated bunch of individuals in nearly 55 years of watching Hearts.

Sure, they have some responsibility. They are professionals after all.

But if they have to listen to non specific ramblings from a manager who has very poor tactical and verbal communication they are going to switch off.

It's may be harsh to say, but the guy we have appointed as manager appears to have had the great David Brent as his role model. 

 

 

Yet we are about to hand Cathro the keys to our summer transfer budget with nothing other than blind faith in his abilities.

That's all there seems to be left.

 

.

[151]

I don't get the traditional manager bit. St Johnstone are a pretty decent team that enjoys success beyond their finances. Cathro has not actually got some new and groundbreaking theories and I don't see this bit about him needing players we can't afford to succeed. Give many managers players we can't afford we will improve until we go bust again. Are Rogers and Mcinnes groundbreakers or just good experienced managers? They have better players than us especially Celtic but I doubt their fans would welcome Cathro to take them up a level. Anyway off to the golf course.

This is the same as my thinking. What is it that Cathro has pitched to the board? What is his groundbreaking philosophy? Passing the ball and pressing? So what Celtic and Aberdeen have done all season.

[John Findlay]

I voted remain. I am more than willing to give someone more than 6 months at the helm of the first team. I don't do knee jerking.

[i8hibsh]

I voted remain. I am more than willing to give someone more than 6 months at the helm of the first team. I don't do knee jerking.

 

I agree as long as there is significant or at least noticeable improvement from one week to the next but it is the exact opposite JF.  Seriously, you are clearly a good die hard Jambo like me but it doesn?t make you a better fan by stubbornly sticking with him.  He is dragging us down, it is there for all and sundry to see.  We can write off next season for sure.  Every day we have with these duds is a day wasted for our football club.

[John Findlay]

I agree as long as there is significant or at least noticeable improvement from one week to the next but it is the exact opposite JF. Seriously, you are clearly a good die hard Jambo like me but it doesn?t make you a better fan by stubbornly sticking with him. He is dragging us down, it is there for all and sundry to see. We can write off next season for sure. Every day we have with these duds is a day wasted for our football club.

Nothing to do with being a better fan. I am just prepared to give the current coaching staff more time.

[Bellion]

I don't get the traditional manager bit. St Johnstone are a pretty decent team that enjoys success beyond their finances. Cathro has not actually got some new and groundbreaking theories and I don't see this bit about him needing players we can't afford to succeed. Give many managers players we can't afford we will improve until we go bust again. Are Rogers and Mcinnes groundbreakers or just good experienced managers? They have better players than us especially Celtic but I doubt their fans would welcome Cathro to take them up a level. Anyway off to the golf course.

 

 

This is the same as my thinking. What is it that Cathro has pitched to the board? What is his groundbreaking philosophy? Passing the ball and pressing? So what Celtic and Aberdeen have done all season.

 

I don't think anyone is saying (I'm certainly not saying) that Cathro is the sole innovator amidst thousands of non-thinking traditionalists. It's all relative. I don't think what Cathro wants to do is that different to what Neilson wanted to achieve. And ultimately it's all football, so the differences are nuanced. 

 

But you can tell a lot about a manager by how they set their team up, and what they're willing to sacrifice in the name of building something. I'd say Rodgers is pretty forward-thinking and looks to set a team up to play attractive football, sometimes at the expense of results. His Liverpool team were decent to watch and scored a lot of goals, but they also did stuff like throw away a 3 goal lead at Palace when all they needed to do to win was defend some long balls. His Swansea team were really open, but nearly pissed away promotion because they didn't just sit in and defend a lead when they arguably should have done. His Celtic side are more likely to get a 3-3 draw with City and get papped 7-0 in the Nou Camp than Lennon's side would have been. 

 

To comment on the other examples, Wright is quite different. He prioritises solidity, direct football up to strikers who hold the ball up well, hard-working midfielders and one or two footballers who put in good set pieces and get more or less a free role because there are others to do their work for them (this is why Swanson is so good for Saints and was so shite for us - we weren't willing to compromise the whole set-up to build around him). It works at St Johnstone partly because they probably cannot progress further. Our means are greater than theirs and we should have bigger ambitions, IMO. 

 

McInnes is somewhere in the middle. When I watch Aberdeen, I see a pretty big side that use a lot of width and play at a decent pace, containing a decent number of footballers who'll hurt the opposition, but there's not much possession for the sake of it. He's build a good team, mainly with fairly safe signings, with the resources given to him. It's not that dissimilar to what Jefferies did at Hearts.

 

The 'problem' is that sometimes those teams fall apart when the manager, or the best two players, leave and aren't replaced properly. You can argue that's just what happens and that all clubs go through bad spells, but I think our club has identified that there is a lot of short-termism in football and is attempting to combat it so that we're less exposed to those lulls. It's not anything totally groundbreaking; it's just a bit more forward-thinking (in the sense that it looks to the long-term as well as the present) than most clubs at our level. It'll make us more sustainable in the long-term, which is what we have to be if we're to avoid the type of scenario that nearly sent us under.

 

I have no idea whether it will work. Maybe the lulls are inevitable. But I think we have chosen to employ people who think about whether it's possible to overcome those cycles by imposing a certain school of thought and certain philosophies, and I'd say that shows more medium-to-long-term ambition than most clubs of our size do.

[i8hibsh]

Nothing to do with being a better fan. I am just prepared to give the current coaching staff more time.

 

 

I respect your opinion and like all other Jambos you are very entitled to it but you are playing a very very dangerous game.  The serious likelihood is that next season will be a continuation of this one and yet you want him to stay for the 1% chance it will not be?

 

And seriously that is about the likelihood. 1%.

[bauld willie]

This is the same as my thinking. What is it that Cathro has pitched to the board? What is his groundbreaking philosophy? Passing the ball and pressing? So what Celtic and Aberdeen have done all season.

I think Levein had watched him as a young coach, seen some excellent ideas from him and decided to give him a bash. I honestly don't think there are too many problems with this at first glance.

 

Where I draw the line is, why was it not at a smaller club first, where he could learn from his mistakes, learn about being a manager and leading people. It would also have been an excellent way to learn how to interact with the media with far less pressure.

 

You are also supposed to know when to draw the line on any experiment, especially one that has failed spectacularly.

 

His absolute lack of motivational skills and charisma is something that may not have been easy to forsee in the beginning but that is simply down to his personality and something that can't be taught.

 

First and foremost football is about winning. We all want to see glorious football, however it can't be at the bottom end of the table or at the expense of winning trophies.

 

The club should be trying to unite its support and sell all the tickets it can. It won't do this with Cathro at the helm.

 

I also don't see compensation being an issue either. For failing to achieve objectives last season, Cathro could readily be punted for 1 years salary. And let's just say that is ?200,000. If McPhee is included, and we may wish to keep him say another, ?100,000. So we can clean out our existing management for ?300,00, give our take and unite the fans again. All it would take is 1000 more season tickets at say an average of ?300 each, to cover this. It's got to be a no brainer.

 

We could then gain positive momentum again, look forward to the new season with a degree of optimism, sell more tickets and not spend next season wondering how many games to give the manager, before we sack him.

[John Findlay]

I respect your opinion and like all other Jambos you are very entitled to it but you are playing a very very dangerous game. The serious likelihood is that next season will be a continuation of this one and yet you want him to stay for the 1% chance it will not be?

 

And seriously that is about the likelihood. 1%.

That is your opinion. I disagree. Time will be the telling. To me the coaching team were giving a blank canvas from 14.20 on the 21/05/17. We will just have to see whether the paint a Turner or a Picasso.

[Escobar PHM]

That is your opinion. I disagree. Time will be the telling. To me the coaching team were giving a blank canvas from 14.20 on the 21/05/17. We will just have to see whether the paint a Turner or a Picasso.

They are more likely to paint a Rolf Harris and we'll be sitting here in September and they'll be saying "Dya know what it is yet ?"

[i8hibsh]

They are more likely to paint a Rolf Harris and we'll be sitting here in September and they'll be saying "Dya know what it is yet ?"

 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

I don't think anyone is saying (I'm certainly not saying) that Cathro is the sole innovator amidst thousands of non-thinking traditionalists. It's all relative. I don't think what Cathro wants to do is that different to what Neilson wanted to achieve. And ultimately it's all football, so the differences are nuanced.

 

But you can tell a lot about a manager by how they set their team up, and what they're willing to sacrifice in the name of building something. I'd say Rodgers is pretty forward-thinking and looks to set a team up to play attractive football, sometimes at the expense of results. His Liverpool team were decent to watch and scored a lot of goals, but they also did stuff like throw away a 3 goal lead at Palace when all they needed to do to win was defend some long balls. His Swansea team were really open, but nearly pissed away promotion because they didn't just sit in and defend a lead when they arguably should have done. His Celtic side are more likely to get a 3-3 draw with City and get papped 7-0 in the Nou Camp than Lennon's side would have been.

 

To comment on the other examples, Wright is quite different. He prioritises solidity, direct football up to strikers who hold the ball up well, hard-working midfielders and one or two footballers who put in good set pieces and get more or less a free role because there are others to do their work for them (this is why Swanson is so good for Saints and was so shite for us - we weren't willing to compromise the whole set-up to build around him). It works at St Johnstone partly because they probably cannot progress further. Our means are greater than theirs and we should have bigger ambitions, IMO.

 

McInnes is somewhere in the middle. When I watch Aberdeen, I see a pretty big side that use a lot of width and play at a decent pace, containing a decent number of footballers who'll hurt the opposition, but there's not much possession for the sake of it. He's build a good team, mainly with fairly safe signings, with the resources given to him. It's not that dissimilar to what Jefferies did at Hearts.

 

The 'problem' is that sometimes those teams fall apart when the manager, or the best two players, leave and aren't replaced properly. You can argue that's just what happens and that all clubs go through bad spells, but I think our club has identified that there is a lot of short-termism in football and is attempting to combat it so that we're less exposed to those lulls. It's not anything totally groundbreaking; it's just a bit more forward-thinking (in the sense that it looks to the long-term as well as the present) than most clubs at our level. It'll make us more sustainable in the long-term, which is what we have to be if we're to avoid the type of scenario that nearly sent us under.

 

I have no idea whether it will work. Maybe the lulls are inevitable. But I think we have chosen to employ people who think about whether it's possible to overcome those cycles by imposing a certain school of thought and certain philosophies, and I'd say that shows more medium-to-long-term ambition than most clubs of our size do.

Yip, and there is no guarantee it will work, but it's definitely worth a go, the results/ benifits could be fantastic.

 

If not a Wright approach and a third place finish can always be plan b.

[i8hibsh]

That is your opinion. I disagree. Time will be the telling. To me the coaching team were giving a blank canvas from 14.20 on the 21/05/17. We will just have to see whether the paint a Turner or a Picasso.

 

More likely paint something that belongs on a fridge with ?Ian aged 30? at the bottom right.

[Nookie Bear]

I don't think guys like Pulis and Allardyce do want to play decent football, actually, but I understand that some managers might just be pragmatists because of the situation they're in (take Mark Hughes as an example of someone whose teams have evolved into more sophisticated outfits over time, something Pulis's have never done).

 

Regardless, the brand of football employed by guys like Pulis is always limited. It will only ever work, and appeal to fans, to a certain degree, which is why those guys don't tend to get really big jobs, or last long if they do. I think Tommy Wright comes into this category too, albeit at a different level. It is fine as long as you're achieving the maximum your club realistically can (mid table EPL side or regular top 6 finishes respectively) but it gets very tedious very quickly if you're not. 

 

I think Cathro is a little different in terms of ambition. I'm not at all convinced he's right, but I think he believes that if he instills a certain playing philosophy, he will be able to get us to rise above our place in the usual order of things. I think if you employed a "traditional" manager (let's use Wright as an example), you'd hear very different noises every week, e.g. "we'll never have the biggest budget, but we'll be organised/hard to beat/no-one will enjoy playing us". And to a point that's fine, but the reality is that the bigger teams usually do find those teams quite easy to beat and do enjoy playing them most of the time, particularly in Scotland. 

 

I think our current management want to do something a bit more ambitious in the long-term than nick the occasional result or go on the odd cup run, and they're willing to make short-term concessions and sacrifices to get to where we want to be in the long-term. I completely see how farcical that might seem when we're as bad as we are now, and I'm not going to apologise for them for much longer. I have very real doubts that Cathro will ever be able to do what he wants with our budget and at our level, and I want to see some proof that it will work. But I think he is trying to do something more ambitious than most managers ever do, and I don't know that it won't work. 

 

We should have a swear box on here for the use of the word 'Philosophy'. The stand would be paid off in weeks.

 

 

Pulis and Allardyce's tactics are accepted by fans until the results stop coming, in the same way we accepted Csaba's more pragmatic approach up until the point the results started going against us.

 

Of course, a glance at the EPL table shows Pulis finished above Hughes - with a smaller budget as well.

 

It would be nice to have a more exciting, fluent, team but you need to have that steel and desire about it as well and that's where Cathro is clearly lacking. We canstill go down that route, but with a better Head Coach.

[Thomaso]

I don't get the traditional manager bit. St Johnstone are a pretty decent team that enjoys success beyond their finances. Cathro has not actually got some new and groundbreaking theories and I don't see this bit about him needing players we can't afford to succeed. Give many managers players we can't afford we will improve until we go bust again. Are Rogers and Mcinnes groundbreakers or just good experienced managers? They have better players than us especially Celtic but I doubt their fans would welcome Cathro to take them up a level. Anyway off to the golf course.

 

 

They are good experienced Managers - just the type that Hearts need!!!

[Thomaso]

They are more likely to paint a Rolf Harris and we'll be sitting here in September and they'll be saying "Dya know what it is yet ?"

 

Absolute Classic!!!! 

 

 

[Bellion]

We should have a swear box on here for the use of the word 'Philosophy'. The stand would be paid off in weeks.

 

 

Pulis and Allardyce's tactics are accepted by fans until the results stop coming, in the same way we accepted Csaba's more pragmatic approach up until the point the results started going against us.

 

Of course, a glance at the EPL table shows Pulis finished above Hughes - with a smaller budget as well.

 

It would be nice to have a more exciting, fluent, team but you need to have that steel and desire about it as well and that's where Cathro is clearly lacking. We canstill go down that route, but with a better Head Coach.

Can't have that, I'd be broke in weeks...

 

I agree with you on Pulis, Allardyce & Csaba, and I know West Brom have had a great year this year, but I still think you sometimes need someone who'll think about 5 years down the line as well as the present day. The point I was making is that not all managers want to play attractive football or build something for the long-term. Some just want a result next week, which is fine, but kind of limiting at the same time. We don't have to stick with a plucky underdog mentality forever.

 

Our present team is clearly lacking steel and desire, but I say let's see what happens after a summer window where good players are out of contract etc., rather than picking up whatever was available as a short-term fix in January.

 

If it's clear by October-November that it can't work (or if we lose the first 6 games or something), we get rid and get another progressive coach who can get his message across. I don't know who that would be, which is partly why I'm not that keen to see more change. I understand why some people have seen enough already, but that's where I am.

[oh ah grantona]

Like all of his signings he looked a good choice on paper

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No he didn't

 

Defo not in my eyes anyway absolutely bonkers appointment

[amadjambo]

They are more likely to paint a Rolf Harris and we'll be sitting here in September and they'll be saying "Dya know what it is yet ?"

[Spellczech]

Serious question for some of the longer serving kickbackers. Prior to Romanov, was this board just as divided, or was it something that started with Vlad Sheep and Hat Kickers?

You should've seen when people were calling for Robbo to be sacked as manager...

[Haken]

You should've seen when people were calling for Robbo to be sacked as manager...

So not an entirely recent phenomenon, then?  That's reassuring in an odd sort of way. 

[Spellczech]

So not an entirely recent phenomenon, then?  That's reassuring in an odd sort of way. 

Our problem at moment is that we are still adapting to DOF & Head Coach model.  Head Coach is not responsible for all football side at the club. He is responsible for training, formation and tactics, plus team selection. DOF is responsible for recruitment, academy, strategy (by which I mean ensuring that whatever style of play, is adopted consistently throughout club) and an amount of man-management and squad cohesion.

 

When Robbie built the team for the Championship, he was brought in at start of summer which he did well. He then tried to change the style for SPL which proved more challenging but we did ok in year two and ended up where we should have done in 3rd. I'm not sure how successful we were in getting the players we wanted for the next step...I suspect last summer we didn't get the players that Robbie & Levein wanted so "settled" on the likes of Sammon and Rherras...

 

Robbie then decided to leave mid-season, and Cathro came in and for right or wrong decided to change pretty much everything immediately.  The squad was "thin" (personally i agree and I think we were papering over cracks) we then lost 2 promising Scottish defenders, plus released 1 CB who had drifted out of the picture, and sold another in line with the club's stated policy of not holding players back when opportunity presents itself. We brought in a bunch of guys who had decent CVs, though again I suspect one or 2 were panic-buys (Avlonitis & Sowah). For whatever reason these guys did not fit. Either they were too rusty because they had not been playing or perhaps they could not adapt to the speed of Scottish game or they were not as good as their CVs suggested...Some people think this was the Head Coach's problem and some people think this was the players' problem. Some people blame both!!!

 

We'll find out next season I guess, as we'll have different players but the same Head Coach. 

[Thomaso]

No he didn't

 

Defo not in my eyes anyway absolutely bonkers appointment

 

 

It was right out of left field, and a symptom of Levein's vanity project.

[Spellczech]

It was right out of left field, and a symptom of Levein's vanity project.

? There was a 5 pager on here touting Cathro when he was in Spain. Somewhat ironically (I guess) I was firmly against it, as I felt he was being overhyped and had achieved nothing at that point. 2 years later he'd moved to Newcastle and it probably was time for him to consider an Head Coach role. Ideally it would've been now he'd be coming in, rather than mid-season. I have an inkling that Robbie would've left this week if he hadn't jumped when MK Dons came calling...

 

I suspect Levein was minded to bring in Cathro now. So let's just treat it as a clean slate for everyone? If indeed the last 6 months has been Cathro's fault, we'll know by October/November...By then he'll have had the experience of the last 6mths, plus a summer window and a proper pre-season. We weren't going to win the SPL this season anyway so let's just all get behind the club again? Levein and Cathro must surely understand that this summer is vital for both of them?  

 

If I have to listen to "I told you so's" in November so be it...Better to have tried and failed than to just be a quitter, like the guys who called for his head in January...

[Thomaso]

? There was a 5 pager on here touting Cathro when he was in Spain. Somewhat ironically (I guess) I was firmly against it, as I felt he was being overhyped and had achieved nothing at that point. 2 years later he'd moved to Newcastle and it probably was time for him to consider an Head Coach role. Ideally it would've been now he'd be coming in, rather than mid-season. I have an inkling that Robbie would've left this week if he hadn't jumped when MK Dons came calling...

 

I suspect Levein was minded to bring in Cathro now. So let's just treat it as a clean slate for everyone? If indeed the last 6 months has been Cathro's fault, we'll know by October/November...By then he'll have had the experience of the last 6mths, plus a summer window and a proper pre-season. We weren't going to win the SPL this season anyway so let's just all get behind the club again? Levein and Cathro must surely understand that this summer is vital for both of them?  

 

If I have to listen to "I told you so's" in November so be it...Better to have tried and failed than to just be a quitter, like the guys who called for his head in January...

 

 

Believe me - the LAST thing I want to tell you is "I told you so" in November as we will be in the shit!

[deejtee]

I don't think anyone is saying (I'm certainly not saying) that Cathro is the sole innovator amidst thousands of non-thinking traditionalists. It's all relative. I don't think what Cathro wants to do is that different to what Neilson wanted to achieve. And ultimately it's all football, so the differences are nuanced. 

 

But you can tell a lot about a manager by how they set their team up, and what they're willing to sacrifice in the name of building something. I'd say Rodgers is pretty forward-thinking and looks to set a team up to play attractive football, sometimes at the expense of results. His Liverpool team were decent to watch and scored a lot of goals, but they also did stuff like throw away a 3 goal lead at Palace when all they needed to do to win was defend some long balls. His Swansea team were really open, but nearly pissed away promotion because they didn't just sit in and defend a lead when they arguably should have done. His Celtic side are more likely to get a 3-3 draw with City and get papped 7-0 in the Nou Camp than Lennon's side would have been. 

 

To comment on the other examples, Wright is quite different. He prioritises solidity, direct football up to strikers who hold the ball up well, hard-working midfielders and one or two footballers who put in good set pieces and get more or less a free role because there are others to do their work for them (this is why Swanson is so good for Saints and was so shite for us - we weren't willing to compromise the whole set-up to build around him). It works at St Johnstone partly because they probably cannot progress further. Our means are greater than theirs and we should have bigger ambitions, IMO. 

 

McInnes is somewhere in the middle. When I watch Aberdeen, I see a pretty big side that use a lot of width and play at a decent pace, containing a decent number of footballers who'll hurt the opposition, but there's not much possession for the sake of it. He's build a good team, mainly with fairly safe signings, with the resources given to him. It's not that dissimilar to what Jefferies did at Hearts.

 

The 'problem' is that sometimes those teams fall apart when the manager, or the best two players, leave and aren't replaced properly. You can argue that's just what happens and that all clubs go through bad spells, but I think our club has identified that there is a lot of short-termism in football and is attempting to combat it so that we're less exposed to those lulls. It's not anything totally groundbreaking; it's just a bit more forward-thinking (in the sense that it looks to the long-term as well as the present) than most clubs at our level. It'll make us more sustainable in the long-term, which is what we have to be if we're to avoid the type of scenario that nearly sent us under.

 

I have no idea whether it will work. Maybe the lulls are inevitable. But I think we have chosen to employ people who think about whether it's possible to overcome those cycles by imposing a certain school of thought and certain philosophies, and I'd say that shows more medium-to-long-term ambition than most clubs of our size do.

First transition was the least seamless ever however and gave us a mega lull. Better luck next time?

[Bellion]

First transition was the least seamless ever however and gave us a mega lull. Better luck next time?

It absolutely was, and around the time of the Hibs games I was furious with how much change had taken place, because we were told that the whole point of the DoF and young coach model is to promote continuity, and I don't think we've had that. I made several posts here to that effect. 

 

I would still like that to be addressed, because I think it's potentially a gaping hole in the entire strategy: if every new coach doesn't fancy half the team and wants to start over again, then there's very little point in what we're doing and we might as well deploy a more conventional model. I think that is a genuine concern. I'm not trying to pretend everything's brilliant. 

 

But with the benefit of a bit of hindsight, the transition will only ever be painless once you have enough of the structure in place. You have to have that to be able to avoid the lulls, and it's wasn't realistic to expect us to have that 2.5 years after coming out of admin.

 

After seeing the team for the past 6 months and listening to him, I think Cathro probably felt that we were nowhere near where we should have been (or where most people thought we were) so it was better to just rip it up and start again. As someone else posted earlier on this thread, if it hadn't been for the Hibs games, a lot of people would have been much more forgiving of that. I really don't know how far away he thinks we are from making it 'work', but I think there's a chance that 5 or 6 really good quality signings this summer will take us a lot closer. 

 

Next time, we should be further down the line, with a better overall structure & better players, so we won't need as much of an overhaul. If we're not in that position, the model is not working, and probably won't work. I think there's every chance that it won't. We'll have to wait and see.

[siegementality]

He's done absolutely nothing to suggest that he is worth retaining, yet we are letting him loose with the summer player budget at a time in our existence that we can least afford to.

 

Don't get me wrong, I chose to buy into the Carhro hype when he was appointed.

After all the Budge/Levein succession planning model is a well oiled machine, .... and they stand or fall by these crucial appointments. They knew their man. They knew who they were getting to lead us.

Having known comparatively little of Cathro previously, I believed we were getting the cream of the crop, the top young manager available with revolutionary ideas.

And wasn't it fantastic that our very own DOF had the inside track on this guy and was able to bring him on board.

Sure, he didn't have any real managerial experience, but hey, that wouldn't matter as he's bound to have great inter personal skills and will endear himself to the media and the fans in an instant.

He'll be able to relate to the players easily and get them playing the exciting football that we know they are capable of.

You know what, I couldn't wait !

 

6 months down the line and we are left with a shambles and a new season approaching.

The great new innovative ideas, which I'd think may well have been the main selling point on his CV, just aren't there. It was all hype after all !!

He's like a rabbit caught in the headlights during interviews, and instead of having the media eating out of his hands they seem more inclined to be hanging around, eagerly waiting to hear his next nugget of nonsense, (the Celtic and goalposts quote springs to mind).

God knows how he is relating to the players either.  

I've never seen such a demotivated bunch of individuals in nearly 55 years of watching Hearts.

Sure, they have some responsibility. They are professionals after all.

But if they have to listen to non specific ramblings from a manager who has very poor tactical and verbal communication they are going to switch off.

It's may be harsh to say, but the guy we have appointed as manager appears to have had the great David Brent as his role model. 

 

 

Yet we are about to hand Cathro the keys to our summer transfer budget with nothing other than blind faith in his abilities.

That's all there seems to be left.

 

.

You might have blind faith, but AB and CL have faith, and that's the difference