Even More SNP Nonsense

[Boris]

I'm interested in the last paragraph from that piece from an SNP spokesman, 

 

An SNP spokesman said that was a ?remarkably selective account? of Minor?s views. ?We are focused on protecting Scotland from the catastrophic effects of a hard Tory Brexit which would cost 80,000 jobs in Scotland over the next decade

 

 

This is 80,ooo jobs that 'would' go over the next decade, not 'could' go.

 

Would this kind of argument not also apply to independence, serious question?

 

I've no idea.  I'm sure that Better Together, assuming that would be their name, would make out that leaving rUK would lead to job losses.  Equally I'm sure Yes would say an independent Scotland could create more jobs.

 

As someone on either this thread or another said, you're either for indy or not.  

 

That's the bottom line and any arguments for or against are going to entrech your position either way.

[Nucky Thompson]

A lot of people vote SNP and that's who they want to represent them.

 

You have chance to vote every few year's to kick them out use it.  

I did and the Lib Dems stole back Edinburgh West from the SNP at the last elections

[coconut doug]

You mean the deal the government kept secret and away from scrutiny by Holyrood?

There was no deal. It was a memorandum of understanding.

 

It wasn't kept secret. The details of the memorandum were published by both the Scottish govt and the Chinese company. The signing ceremony also appeared in newspapers.

 

http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0049/00498660.pdf

 

Here you can see the signing of the MOU  http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14429030.Sturgeon_signed___10bn_deal_with_Chinese_firm_after__flat_pack_houses__plan_snubbed_by_council/

 

We've done this before. Can you explain how they kept the deal secret when there wasn't actually a deal only a memorandum of understanding?

 

Can you explain how secrecy works in this case when details of the memorandum of understanding were published on the Scottish govts official website and pictures of the signing ceremony appeared in the newspapers.

 

You couldn't do it the last time so I'd be surprised if you attempt it now.

[Thunderstruck]

I'm interested in the last paragraph from that piece from an SNP spokesman,

 

An SNP spokesman said that was a ?remarkably selective account? of Minor?s views. ?We are focused on protecting Scotland from the catastrophic effects of a hard Tory Brexit which would cost 80,000 jobs in Scotland over the next decade

 

 

This is 80,ooo jobs that 'would' go over the next decade, not 'could' go.

 

Would this kind of argument not also apply to independence, serious question?

It certainly would apply after Independence. Taking only Faslane, Coulport, BAe Govan plus all of their suppliers and local trades. 80,000 might be a conservative estimate.

[coconut doug]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/09/cleverest-scottish-pupils-year-behind-science-compared-snp-taking/

 

If you want proof it isn't all roses in Scotland then education is absolutely front and centre. Utterly dropped the ball on this.

Nobody thinks it's all roses and any sensible person can see that our education needs serious improvement quickly. However the report you link to is two years old and since then we have had and are continuing to have a major consultation on the future of education with considerable extra resource being put in. It's been given the highest priority as the FM has said that she should be judged by her and the government's performance in this area. So clearly not dropped the ball but are they going in the right direction?

 

 The one thing the SNP have always had in their favour is inheriting appalling standards of governance from the previous incumbents so it has been easy to show modest improvement but that period has ended and they should be assessed on their performance. What should the SNP do about Curriculum for Excellence? Should they abandon it and adopt a system that creates better opportunity for certain groups as is the case in many countries where "bright" pupils are now performing better? what about our dullards are they doing better than their equivalents elsewhere?

 

I know what the Labour Party wants to do which is throw money at it but they have little or no idea how to effect change and raise standards. Scottish schools have much more resource than English schools but generally there have been improvements in England bringing them up to Scotland's standard and sometimes past it. I think the SNP government at least recognises this and that is why they made it a priority and why they are doing something about it. They should be given the chance to do it and not criticised for something that happened before their plans can be implemented.

 

There are actually many indicators that show Scotland's children doing well in comparison to RUK at least, but we are slipping back in some areas. I don't really have a lot of confidence in the SNP to make the changes needed but I do know that the alternatives are even worse.

[Yoda]

I see Wee Nip has had to apologise for the pro-IRA comments from one of her MSPs.

[Pans Jambo]

I've no idea.  I'm sure that Better Together, assuming that would be their name, would make out that leaving rUK would lead to job losses.  Equally I'm sure Yes would say an independent Scotland could create more jobs.

 

As someone on either this thread or another said, you're either for indy or not.  

 

That's the bottom line and any arguments for or against are going to entrech your position either way.

I am sure they wouldnt be able to use the Edinburgh banks heading south to london argument that they used the last time. Especially if it was desirable to have indy and maintain membership of the EU. I could see the London banks heading northto Edinburgh instead.

[JamboX2]

Nobody thinks it's all roses and any sensible person can see that our education needs serious improvement quickly. However the report you link to is two years old and since then we have had and are continuing to have a major consultation on the future of education with considerable extra resource being put in. It's been given the highest priority as the FM has said that she should be judged by her and the government's performance in this area. So clearly not dropped the ball but are they going in the right direction?

 

The one thing the SNP have always had in their favour is inheriting appalling standards of governance from the previous incumbents so it has been easy to show modest improvement but that period has ended and they should be assessed on their performance. What should the SNP do about Curriculum for Excellence? Should they abandon it and adopt a system that creates better opportunity for certain groups as is the case in many countries where "bright" pupils are now performing better? what about our dullards are they doing better than their equivalents elsewhere?

 

I know what the Labour Party wants to do which is throw money at it but they have little or no idea how to effect change and raise standards. Scottish schools have much more resource than English schools but generally there have been improvements in England bringing them up to Scotland's standard and sometimes past it. I think the SNP government at least recognises this and that is why they made it a priority and why they are doing something about it. They should be given the chance to do it and not criticised for something that happened before their plans can be implemented.

 

There are actually many indicators that show Scotland's children doing well in comparison to RUK at least, but we are slipping back in some areas. I don't really have a lot of confidence in the SNP to make the changes needed but I do know that the alternatives are even worse.

The SNP have been asleep at the wheel for a while on this. But I'm glad we can agree that step 1 is accepting there is an issue.

 

Labour is right to identify a need for extra funding - I'd ringfence education budgets - but you're right that there needs to be a plan.

 

Longer school days, more classroom assistants, more physical education and funding for extra curricular activities should be the way forward.

[jambo lodge]

But...may also be fast tracked.

 

?Now, it might be easier for an independent Scotland to meet those criteria. The fact that all your legislation has to be in alignment with existing European rules would presumably not be too difficult for Scotland, compared with, say, Montenegro. And that might enable them to move faster than others.?

 

from https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/10/independent-scotland-would-have-to-apply-for-eu-membership

 

So all a bit smoke and mirrors.  Actually, I could see an Indy Scotland doing a Norway and join EFTA.

 

The smoke and mirrors I'm afraid come from those who are passionate about independence at any cost. Scotland would have to join the queue but may be fast tracked as a lot of laws are already in line with EU laws. No application however could happen until UK had left the EU as Scotland is currently an integral part of the UK membership and Spain would not countenance a separate application in the short term. Scotland could then be fast tracked ( in EU speak that is still years ) but would first have to commit to the Euro and reduce our public spending deficit which is currently worse than Greece. So the reality could well be that Scotland becomes truly independent country both from the UK and the EU,not the play Nicola is making at the moment.

[Space Mackerel]

The smoke and mirrors I'm afraid come from those who are passionate about independence at any cost. Scotland would have to join the queue but may be fast tracked as a lot of laws are already in line with EU laws. No application however could happen until UK had left the EU as Scotland is currently an integral part of the UK membership and Spain would not countenance a separate application in the short term. Scotland could then be fast tracked ( in EU speak that is still years ) but would first have to commit to the Euro and reduce our public spending deficit which is currently worse than Greece. So the reality could well be that Scotland becomes truly independent country both from the UK and the EU,not the play Nicola is making at the moment.

What would happen if Scotland left the U.K. before the UK left the EU?

 

Some political commentators have said the process could take up to 10 years?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Boris]

The smoke and mirrors I'm afraid come from those who are passionate about independence at any cost. Scotland would have to join the queue but may be fast tracked as a lot of laws are already in line with EU laws. No application however could happen until UK had left the EU as Scotland is currently an integral part of the UK membership and Spain would not countenance a separate application in the short term. Scotland could then be fast tracked ( in EU speak that is still years ) but would first have to commit to the Euro and reduce our public spending deficit which is currently worse than Greece. So the reality could well be that Scotland becomes truly independent country both from the UK and the EU,not the play Nicola is making at the moment.

Sweden has committed to the euro but will never take it on.

 

As I said previously, I suspect some sort of efta solution will probably happen. Access to the single market, happy with free movement of people's, but out with the eu per se.

 

There are disadvantages in this, you have to pay the eu, you have to accept certain regulations, so perhaps better to be in.

 

I get that the eu isn't perfect, far from it, but for me, it seems a wee bit more palatable than the way the uk is heading.

[Australis]

Separatists will be fast tracked over the rest?

 

Bigger debt and basket case than Greece, how is that even possible.

 

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/if-scotland-had-gone-independent-today-it-would-be-facing-sado-austerity/

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/720541/SNP-Scotland-economy-debt-Sturgeon-Greece-EU-public-spending-deficit

 

[Space Mackerel]

Separatists will be fast tracked over the rest?

 

Bigger debt and basket case than Greece, how is that even possible.

 

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/if-scotland-had-gone-independent-today-it-would-be-facing-sado-austerity/

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/720541/SNP-Scotland-economy-debt-Sturgeon-Greece-EU-public-spending-deficit

Here's another Daily Express link!

Dry yer eyes, you're going to lose the next Indy ref.

[jambo lodge]

Smoke and mirrors in the answers once again. UK leaves the EU, the part of the UK that is Scotland leaves at the same time. The nightmare scenario for Scotland is to be outwith the UK and outwith the EU at the same time. The economic mess that would follow would put Greece to shame. 

[Australis]

Smoke and mirrors in the answers once again. UK leaves the EU, the part of the UK that is Scotland leaves at the same time. The nightmare scenario for Scotland is to be outwith the UK and outwith the EU at the same time. The economic mess that would follow would put Greece to shame. 

 

Imagine having to ask Greece for a tap because we were a basket case.

[jambo lodge]

Sweden has committed to the euro but will never take it on.

 

As I said previously, I suspect some sort of efta solution will probably happen. Access to the single market, happy with free movement of people's, but out with the eu per se.

 

There are disadvantages in this, you have to pay the eu, you have to accept certain regulations, so perhaps better to be in.

 

I get that the eu isn't perfect, far from it, but for me, it seems a wee bit more palatable than the way the uk is heading.

 

The UK may be heading towards a similar solution , would be madness to embark on an independence referendum without knowing the outcome of Brexit. 

[Space Mackerel]

The Yoonys on here are starting to ramp up Project Fear 2 already.

 

First it was bad to be outside the EU in the 2014, now it's good post Brexit, eh?

 

Now we won't even get back in the EU because we are too wee, too poor and too stupid.

 

There's logic somewhere in there.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[jambo lodge]

The Yoonys on here are starting to ramp up Project Fear 2 already.

 

First it was bad to be outside the EU in the 2014, now it's good post Brexit, eh?

 

Now we won't even get back in the EU because we are too wee, too poor and too stupid.

 

There's logic somewhere in there.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

Its not project fear to ask you to live in a world of reality. What matters is the situation Scotland faces right now not in 2014. My personal preference has always been for a Federal UK outside of the EU but that's not an option that seems to be on the table at the moment.

[Australis]

Imagine Greece having to bail Scotland out.

[Space Mackerel]

Its not project fear to ask you to live in a world of reality. What matters is the situation Scotland faces right now not in 2014. My personal preference has always been for a Federal UK outside of the EU but that's not an option that seems to be on the table at the moment.

"a world of reality"

Tell us more of your Vow mk 2 promises you believe in

[Space Mackerel]

Imagine Greece having to bail Scotland out.

Imagine being knocking on the door of ?2 TRILLION in debt.

[Arnold Rothstein]

Imagine being knocking on the door of ?2 TRILLION in debt.

And Scots haven't contributed in any way to that situation right enough.....

[jack D and coke]

Imagine Greece having to bail Scotland out.

I take it you smoke a lot of weed?

[jack D and coke]

And Scots haven't contributed in any way to that situation right enough.....

Scotland has borrowed how much?

[Arnold Rothstein]

Scotland has borrowed how much?

Where did I mention Scotland?

[Space Mackerel]

Where did I mention Scotland?

Post 2116 above

 

Alternative fact, aye?

[Arnold Rothstein]

Post 2116 above

 

Alternative fact, aye?

Christ, you're not that thick surely? I didn't mention Scotland. SCOTS have had more than a small hand in previous Westminster governments.

[Space Mackerel]

Christ, you're not that thick surely? I didn't mention Scotland. SCOTS have had more than a small hand in previous Westminster governments.

Why don't you make your posts more clearer then in future?

So what's your point(s)?

[Arnold Rothstein]

Why don't you make your posts more clearer then in future?

So what's your point(s)?

You clearly struggle with basic English. You laugh at the country being ?2tr in debt despite the chancellor during much of the last 20yrs being a Scot. We'd make better decisions as an independent nation though eh?

[Space Mackerel]

You clearly struggle with basic English. You laugh at the country being ?2tr in debt despite the chancellor during much of the last 20yrs being a Scot. We'd make better decisions as an independent nation though eh?

I'm not sure exactly but I think you'll find the National Debt has something liked doubled under the Tories.

 

Bit you knew that didn't you?

[Arnold Rothstein]

I'm not sure exactly but I think you'll find the National Debt has something liked doubled under the Tories.

 

Bit you knew that didn't you?

Cool. Thought it would all be the Tories' fault.

 

An independent Scotland would have breezed through the financial crisis presumably?

[Space Mackerel]

Cool. Thought it would all be the Tories' fault.

An independent Scotland would have breezed through the financial crisis presumably?

Was Scotland independent back in 2008 and how would you have known fiscal policy pre dating back then?

 

Saying that, we couldve just printed more money like they did down South if the worst came to the worst.

[Arnold Rothstein]

Was Scotland independent back in 2008 and how would you have known fiscal policy pre dating back then?

 

Saying that, we couldve just printed more money like they did down South if the worst came to the worst.

You can't have a rational debate with someone like you. Westminster bad, Scotland and everything that goes with it good. A terribly black and white approach.

 

Scots have played a big in shaping what the UK is in 2017, good and bad. To not acknowledge this is head in the sand stuff.

[Space Mackerel]

You can't have a rational debate with someone like you. Westminster bad, Scotland and everything that goes with it good. A terribly black and white approach.

Scots have played a big in shaping what the UK is in 2017, good and bad. To not acknowledge this is head in the sand stuff.

Nope. You and your wee gang come on here firing all sorts of nonsense that you've glanced at articles/news snippets and not fully understood what's going on.

I'm and a few others are just keeping you right.

 

The threads not about SNP nonsense any more, it's Yoony posters posting nonsense now.

[Arnold Rothstein]

Nope. You and your wee gang come on here firing all sorts of nonsense that you've glanced at articles/news snippets and not fully understood what's going on.

I'm and a few others are just keeping you right.

 

The threads not about SNP nonsense any more, it's Yoony posters posting nonsense now.

What's the derivation of "Yoony"? I bet it's something frightfully clever is it?

 

ps. sort your grammar out will you?

Edited February 11, 2017 by Arnold Rothstein

[Space Mackerel]

What's the derivation of "Yoony"? I bet it's something frightfully clever is it?

ps. sort your grammar out will you?

Only scraped a C in O grade English, got an A in Higher maths though.

 

Apologies.

[Arnold Rothstein]

Only scraped a C in O grade English, got an A in Higher maths though.

 

Apologies.

Apology accepted. So this "Yoony" patter?

[Space Mackerel]

Apology accepted. So this "Yoony" patter?

Yoony = Unionist.

Loony Yoony = Rabid Unionist.

[Arnold Rothstein]

Yoony = Unionist.

Loony Yoony = Rabid Unionist.

Very clever. Full marks.

[jambo lodge]

UK national debt prior to financial crash was circa ?.5 trillion, 38% of GDP. In 2016 debt was ?1.64 trillion about 80% of GDP. You may remember that Scottish Banks were at the forefront of the financial crisis as was a Scottish Chancellor of the Exchequer. You simply cannot blame the rising national UK debt on a Conservative Government who inherited the crisis.........on second thoughts some on here could do exactly that.

[Boris]

UK national debt prior to financial crash was circa ?.5 trillion, 38% of GDP. In 2016 debt was ?1.64 trillion about 80% of GDP. You may remember that Scottish Banks were at the forefront of the financial crisis as was a Scottish Chancellor of the Exchequer. You simply cannot blame the rising national UK debt on a Conservative Government who inherited the crisis.........on second thoughts some on here could do exactly that.

Didn't they say they would eradicate it though? Instead it's got bigger!

[coconut doug]

UK national debt prior to financial crash was circa ?.5 trillion, 38% of GDP. In 2016 debt was ?1.64 trillion about 80% of GDP. You may remember that Scottish Banks were at the forefront of the financial crisis as was a Scottish Chancellor of the Exchequer. You simply cannot blame the rising national UK debt on a Conservative Government who inherited the crisis.........on second thoughts some on here could do exactly that.

Where the chancellor was born has absolutely nothing to do with the banking crisis. Neither can you blame the scottishness of banks for getting into debt. The bank requiring the biggest bailout was Barclays.

  Had Scotland been independent we would have had no bank bailout because the bank losses did not occur in Scotland. Of course the Tories are to blame for our current indebtedness. They are a one issue party who repeatedly told us that only they could run the economy and that only they had the policies to "pay down the deficit". They deliberately and spectacularly failed to do so preferring tax cuts to proper fiscal management and now it seems impossible that we can ever pay back what we owe, unless of course we further dismantle public services and ultimately dispense with the very expensive NHS.

 

  The Scottishness of banks or chancellors had absolutely nothing to do with the crash or our continuing inability to run our economy. The fact that you and so many others of your persuasion seem hell bent on rubbishing Scotland on any false pretext you can find is pathetic but what is worse is that no matter how many times this is pointed out you come straight back with a Scotland is crap, Scottish people are rubbish type comment. London is a world financial centre. London is where the casino bankers were based . It is the casino bankers of London that were bailed out by the honest taxpayers of the U.K. and that includes Scotland.  

 

BtW if the rising debt is not the fault of the Consevative govt, who should we blame?

[jambo lodge]

Aye, they promised to end the annual deficit. The biggest increase in annual deficit was between 2009 and 2014, since then the increase has dropped in percentage terms each year. Those who hate the so called austerity measures ( Corbyn/Sturgeon ) would have seen the level of deficit increase much more. 

[jambo lodge]

Where the chancellor was born has absolutely nothing to do with the banking crisis. Neither can you blame the scottishness of banks for getting into debt. The bank requiring the biggest bailout was Barclays.

  Had Scotland been independent we would have had no bank bailout because the bank losses did not occur in Scotland. Of course the Tories are to blame for our current indebtedness. They are a one issue party who repeatedly told us that only they could run the economy and that only they had the policies to "pay down the deficit". They deliberately and spectacularly failed to do so preferring tax cuts to proper fiscal management and now it seems impossible that we can ever pay back what we owe, unless of course we further dismantle public services and ultimately dispense with the very expensive NHS.

 

  The Scottishness of banks or chancellors had absolutely nothing to do with the crash or our continuing inability to run our economy. The fact that you and so many others of your persuasion seem hell bent on rubbishing Scotland on any false pretext you can find is pathetic but what is worse is that no matter how many times this is pointed out you come straight back with a Scotland is crap, Scottish people are rubbish type comment. London is a world financial centre. London is where the casino bankers were based . It is the casino bankers of London that were bailed out by the honest taxpayers of the U.K. and that includes Scotland.  

 

BtW if the rising debt is not the fault of the Consevative govt, who should we blame?

 

Was not aware that Barclays got bailed out during the financial crisis, perhaps you could check this assertion? They certainly benefitted from a range of support measures put in place by the government over many years to support the whole banking sector. The last thing I am doing is rubbishing Scotland but the fact is that a Scottish Chancellor and Scottish Banks were at the heart of the financial crisis which affected us all.   

[Thunderstruck]

Didn't they say they would eradicate it though? Instead it's got bigger!

They said that they would eradicate Debt?

[Arnold Rothstein]

Where the chancellor was born has absolutely nothing to do with the banking crisis. Neither can you blame the scottishness of banks for getting into debt. The bank requiring the biggest bailout was Barclays.

Had Scotland been independent we would have had no bank bailout because the bank losses did not occur in Scotland. Of course the Tories are to blame for our current indebtedness. They are a one issue party who repeatedly told us that only they could run the economy and that only they had the policies to "pay down the deficit". They deliberately and spectacularly failed to do so preferring tax cuts to proper fiscal management and now it seems impossible that we can ever pay back what we owe, unless of course we further dismantle public services and ultimately dispense with the very expensive NHS.

 

The Scottishness of banks or chancellors had absolutely nothing to do with the crash or our continuing inability to run our economy. The fact that you and so many others of your persuasion seem hell bent on rubbishing Scotland on any false pretext you can find is pathetic but what is worse is that no matter how many times this is pointed out you come straight back with a Scotland is crap, Scottish people are rubbish type comment. London is a world financial centre. London is where the casino bankers were based . It is the casino bankers of London that were bailed out by the honest taxpayers of the U.K. and that includes Scotland.

 

BtW if the rising debt is not the fault of the Consevative govt, who should we blame?

No one is suggesting the financial state of the UK was BECAUSE the chancellor was Scottish. That would be mad. What is being pointed out however is that Scots have been part of the governments who have overseen the movement towards our current state. The way some people go on it's as if Scots have been innocent bystanders. Total nonsense. Edited February 11, 2017 by Arnold Rothstein

[Space Mackerel]

UK national debt prior to financial crash was circa ?.5 trillion, 38% of GDP. In 2016 debt was ?1.64 trillion about 80% of GDP. You may remember that Scottish Banks were at the forefront of the financial crisis as was a Scottish Chancellor of the Exchequer. You simply cannot blame the rising national UK debt on a Conservative Government who inherited the crisis.........on second thoughts some on here could do exactly that.

It was the Scotiish banks wot did it. All Scottish bankers and hedge fund managers right enough.

[coconut doug]

Aye, they promised to end the annual deficit. The biggest increase in annual deficit was between 2009 and 2014, since then the increase has dropped in percentage terms each year. Those who hate the so called austerity measures ( Corbyn/Sturgeon ) would have seen the level of deficit increase much more. 

No. The labour and SNP plans were to pay down this deficit over a slightly longer period and maintaining or increasing taxation levels so they could maintain public services. The Tories deliberately made public finances worse so they could use this as an excuse to cut back on benefits for disability and introduce the bedroom tax. The next phase is the further privatisation of and disbanding of the NHS.

[Space Mackerel]

Groundhog Day on here keeping the Yoonys educated and stopping their misinformation.

This is clearly what happens if you watch any BBC output.

[coconut doug]

No one is suggesting the financial state of the UK was BECAUSE the chancellor was Scottish. That would be mad. What is being pointed out however is that Scots have been part of the governments who have overseen the movement towards our current state. The way some people go on it's as if Scots have been innocent bystanders. Total nonsense.

I think that's exactly what he did do. Here is the quote You may remember that Scottish Banks were at the forefront of the financial crisis as was a Scottish Chancellor of the Exchequer.

 

Perhaps you could explain the need to point out the scottishness of bank and person if it is not to denigrate them and to apportion blame to Scotland. Do you think that we do not know that scots were in government or that RBS and Lloyds needed a bailout?

 

Tony Blair was born and schooled in Edinburgh. Are Scots then to blame for the Iraq war? IDS was also born in ED. Do we have to accept the blame for benefits cuts to our most vulnerable. Maybe just once the British loyalists on here might understand that had we been independent we would have had no reason to manufacture false evidence for an illegal war, we would not have had the same priorities as the city of London and would not have had a banking crisis and we would be better at looking after our vulnerable people, not least because we would not have wasted our money bailing out banks and fighting aggressive wars.