Pans Jambo Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Where's the article that you copied and pasted gone? I read it earlier. I missed the part at the bottom that said it was copyright and should not be reproduced yadda yadda. Thought it best I get rid before I got into trouble with the powers that be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Looks like they have been saying the same thing since 2014 about there being ?100bn of export. It didn't convince people back then, even when the oil revenue was decent. http://frannleach.com/pdfs/140706-01.pdf Edit: Haha, oh dear it is the same link - so there isn't a new article on FT about this, it's just a 3 year old article If you actually look at it the oil revenue is not the largest part of it. Oil. That needs to get off our back! Its a bloody millstone! Wish we were more like Northern Ireland in that respect! Anyway, if it said ?500Bn and it was factually correct it would still not turn the Yoonies heads. The Vow on the other hand... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coconut doug Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 The BBC analysis you linked isn't BBC analysis, it is from the Scottish Referendum Study, which was born out of the British Election Study. A long running UK wide attempt to look at a great deal of social factors and linking those to a vote - The survey looked for correlation between voters' identities and the way they cast their referendum ballot. The study's authors are noted in the article by Douglas Fraser as: It found a strong link on religious affiliation. Some 60% of Protestants voted 'No', while 58% of Catholics voted 'Yes'. Those adherents of the Church of England were 81% for the Union - the strongest correlation of all. However, the research does not indicate that religion was a cause of the way people voted. So from that in itself despite more protestants voting No and more catholics voting yes, the researchers behind these stats have stated that religion was a cause of the way people voted. If we are to go down that road, why is a presbyterian protestant more likely to vote yes over an anglican or episcopalian protestant (given the full quote says 81% of anglicans voted no)? So the research you yourself are using explicitly states that it does not indicate that religion was a cause of the way people voted. Douglas Fraser states in his closing paragraphs that the SRS: ...showed a similar gender gap, there was an indication that the youngest voters were pro-union, and there was a split between higher skilled, higher earners and those on lower pay with lower work skill levels. So... age and a split between higher skilled/higher earners and those with less skills/lower earners. I would suggest that a reading of the SRS report summary and also of the opening paragraphs of the article blows your bigots/religion point out the water in favour of issues of class and social factors: A breakdown of voting patterns, drawn from a survey of 5,000 Scots conducted soon after the referendum day, runs counter to the widespread belief that there was a clear split between older and young voters, or that higher earners backed the United Kingdom. It did, however, confirm other polling evidence that women were decisive in the result. While men were 53% for 'Yes', women were 57% for 'No'. Voters earning more than ?30,000 were found to be evenly split, while those earning less than ?20,000 were 53% for independence. It was those earning between ?20,000 and ?30,000 who can also be seen as deciding the outcome - voting 'No' by a margin of 56% to 44%. To me that says: women were decisive by being anti-yes, those earning less than ?20,000 were overwhelmingly pro-yes and the middle class won it for no. Given the above quote on religion not being an influencing factor, what is the basis for your bigot point? It is BBC analysis though. Douglas Fraser offers analysis of figures that the authors did not make. Douglas Fraser works for the BBC. The article does not blow my point out of the water, it reinforces it. It would be nice to think that we only have a small number of these people who appeared at George Square and in the Press TV documentary unfortunately this is not the case. That's why I made the point that similar views are held at Golf clubs and at coffee mornings. My point is/was that if Nazi saluters and the Rangers supporters are bigots then those who hold similar views are none the less bigoted just because they keep different company and articulate their bigotry in a slightly different way. This is my experience borne out when I find myself in polite company and people assume that because we have something in common and all appear to be "middle class" then we all hold the same views on independence. They see this as an opportunity to collectively pressure those who they think might not be fully on board in a similar way to those Rangers fans on the film. Political discussion is frowned upon and alternative views dismissed without consideration. That for me is a good definition of bigotry. Obviously not all "No" supporters fall into that category Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Anything in the MSM about the Tory MP begging for forgiveness to the House for making "woof woof" comments yesterday at Oor Tasmina? What a shower of backward, stuck in the past, old boy stupid cretins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Anything in the MSM about the Tory MP begging for forgiveness to the House for making "woof woof" comments yesterday at Oor Tasmina? What a shower of backward, stuck in the past, old boy stupid cretins. Yes it was fully reported by the BBC, including the apology. Does that, by your logic, mean it didn't happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Yes it was fully reported by the BBC, including the apology. Does that, by your logic, mean it didn't happen? I don't watch the BBC these days as its a load of utter pish and full of BritNat propaganda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I don't watch the BBC these days as its a load of utter pish and full of BritNat propaganda So there we have it. Don't believe the BBC unless of course it reports something to support Indy, in which case believe it. And - Anyone who voted No is a bigot and anyone who voted Yes is not. I'd say the Indy community may be suffering IQ problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 So there we have it. Don't believe the BBC unless of course it reports something to support Indy, in which case believe it. And - Anyone who voted No is a bigot and anyone who voted Yes is not. I'd say the Indy community may be suffering IQ problems. There is though links between faith and voting patterns. Are you dismissing decades and more of learned attitudes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 So there we have it. Don't believe the BBC unless of course it reports something to support Indy, in which case believe it. And - Anyone who voted No is a bigot and anyone who voted Yes is not. I'd say the Indy community may be suffering IQ problems. I won't expect you to watch it but here you go all the same. All documented and factually backed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 It is BBC analysis though. Douglas Fraser offers analysis of figures that the authors did not make. Douglas Fraser works for the BBC. The article does not blow my point out of the water, it reinforces it. It would be nice to think that we only have a small number of these people who appeared at George Square and in the Press TV documentary unfortunately this is not the case. That's why I made the point that similar views are held at Golf clubs and at coffee mornings. My point is/was that if Nazi saluters and the Rangers supporters are bigots then those who hold similar views are none the less bigoted just because they keep different company and articulate their bigotry in a slightly different way. This is my experience borne out when I find myself in polite company and people assume that because we have something in common and all appear to be "middle class" then we all hold the same views on independence. They see this as an opportunity to collectively pressure those who they think might not be fully on board in a similar way to those Rangers fans on the film. Political discussion is frowned upon and alternative views dismissed without consideration. That for me is a good definition of bigotry. Obviously not all "No" supporters fall into that category I agree that there a core who will never break the union and for the reasons you state. But how prevalent do you believe that is in percentage of the no vote. And do you accept that there is a core of voters who would always vote to break up the union because they are irish republican first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australis Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Has the oil price reached $130 a barrel yet, Salmond said it would in the white paper. SNP referendum oil figures '13 times higher than reality' New figures published by the Office for Budget Responsibility show the North Sea is only expected to generate ?600 million next year, compared to the SNP's prediction of ?7.9 billion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trapper John McIntyre Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 This is the type of people the SNP allow to become MSP's and let loose on Scotland: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Brightside Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 It is BBC analysis though. Douglas Fraser offers analysis of figures that the authors did not make. Douglas Fraser works for the BBC. The article does not blow my point out of the water, it reinforces it. It would be nice to think that we only have a small number of these people who appeared at George Square and in the Press TV documentary unfortunately this is not the case. That's why I made the point that similar views are held at Golf clubs and at coffee mornings. My point is/was that if Nazi saluters and the Rangers supporters are bigots then those who hold similar views are none the less bigoted just because they keep different company and articulate their bigotry in a slightly different way. This is my experience borne out when I find myself in polite company and people assume that because we have something in common and all appear to be "middle class" then we all hold the same views on independence. They see this as an opportunity to collectively pressure those who they think might not be fully on board in a similar way to those Rangers fans on the film. Political discussion is frowned upon and alternative views dismissed without consideration. That for me is a good definition of bigotry. Obviously not all "No" supporters fall into that category So, are the Catholics who voted yes bigots? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaymarketJambo Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) This is the type of people the SNP allow to become MSP's and let loose on Scotland: Maybe the name of Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn comes to mind. Remember Gerry Adams and his eval co-hawks and invite by who? Don't start that stuff. Edited January 31, 2017 by HaymarketJambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trapper John McIntyre Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Maybe the name of Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn comes to mind. Remember Gerry Adams and his eval co-hawks and invite by who? Don't start that stuff. Who gives a feck about Corbyn? I don't. But you carry on deflecting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphonseCapone Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 This is the type of people the SNP allow to become MSP's and let loose on Scotland: Why is it not a surprise you'd be impressed by something so simplistic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Brightside Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 That's a bit strange coming from a Labour supporter? Maybe the name of Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn comes to mind. Remember Gerry Adams and his eval co-hawks and invite by who? Classic whataboutery. You will find many labour supporters, members MPs and SMPs are openly critical of Corbyn on many issues. This is healthy, having a van on dissent is not healthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Who gives a feck about Corbyn? I don't. But you carry on deflecting. Who do you vote for TJM? Cairds oot please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trapper John McIntyre Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Who do you vote for TJM? Cairds oot please. Whoever's best placed to rid us of the SNP. After that I'll be more selective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Whoever's best placed to rid us of the SNP. After that I'll be more selective. Enjoy your wasted trip to the ballot box for the next lifetime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trapper John McIntyre Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) Enjoy your wasted trip to the ballot box for the next lifetime. I console myself that that will include enjoying life in the Glorious Union of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland in perpetuity. Edited January 31, 2017 by Trapper John McIntyre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I console myself that that will include enjoying life in the Glorious Union of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland in perpetuity. Have a peek into the future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaymarketJambo Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Classic whataboutery. You will find many labour supporters, members MPs and SMPs are openly critical of Corbyn on many issues. This is healthy, having a van on dissent is not healthy. A lot of Labour member's voted for Corbyn to be re-elected as Labour Leader last year in fact did he not get more votes this time around? For the record I hope he stay's Labour leader for a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 All these references to ( and drawing parallels with ) Northern Ireland, across the various threads, are, imo, a bit fecking moody. The more extreme partisan followers on both sides seem desperate to drag it there. Sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 All these references to ( and drawing parallels with ) Northern Ireland, across the various threads, are, imo, a bit fecking moody. The more extreme partisan followers on both sides seem desperate to drag it there. Sad. Not both sides, only one side. It's ingrained in their psyche and upbringing sadly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trapper John McIntyre Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 All these references to ( and drawing parallels with ) Northern Ireland, across the various threads, are, imo, a bit fecking moody. The more extreme partisan followers on both sides seem desperate to drag it there. Sad. Thankfully, minus the violence. But you have to admit, that's where we were headed, once the nationalism genie was let out of the bottle. People's naivete about the scourge of flagwaving is absolutely startling. Any vote for the SNP, whether you're basically for or against independence, is one more step towards their ultimate goal. Too many useful idiots are helping them along the way. Starve them of votes and they'll return to the wilderness. Don't whine about further creeping Ulsterisation of Scotland. That was inevitable. A lot more silent Tories in Scotland now than you may think. For every action there is a reaction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Not both sides, only one side. It's ingrained in their psyche and upbringing sadly. Okay then ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Thankfully, minus the violence. But you have to admit, that's where we were headed, once the nationalism genie was let out of the bottle. People's naivete about the scourge of flagwaving is absolutely startling. Any vote for the SNP, whether you're basically for or against independence, is one more step towards their ultimate goal. Too many useful idiots are helping them along the way. Starve them of votes and they'll return to the wilderness. Don't whine about further creeping Ulsterisation of Scotland. That was inevitable. A lot more silent Tories in Scotland now than you may think. For every action there is a reaction. Okay then ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) Thankfully, minus the violence. But you have to admit, that's where we were headed, once the nationalism genie was let out of the bottle. People's naivete about the scourge of flagwaving is absolutely startling. Any vote for the SNP, whether you're basically for or against independence, is one more step towards their ultimate goal. Too many useful idiots are helping them along the way. Starve them of votes and they'll return to the wilderness. Don't whine about further creeping Ulsterisation of Scotland. That was inevitable. A lot more silent Tories in Scotland now than you may think. For every action there is a reaction. Here is your Regimental Blues banner Thrapper, it's a bit Sevco ish to say the least. What's the 5 stars all about likes above? Are you a Hearts fan? I doubt it. Edited January 31, 2017 by Space Mackerel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trapper John McIntyre Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Here is your Regimental Blues banner Thrapper, it's a bit Sevco ish to say the least. Are you a Hearts fan? I doubt it. Can you actually read? Or does your gimp Aussie only read out the bits you like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Can you actually read? Or does your gimp Aussie only read out the bits you like? 5 stars above? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coconut doug Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I agree that there a core who will never break the union and for the reasons you state. But how prevalent do you believe that is in percentage of the no vote. And do you accept that there is a core of voters who would always vote to break up the union because they are irish republican first. Correct - they do exist. I don't know exactly how prevalent they are or how intensely they hold their views but I do think it was enough to win the vote for "No" so more than 10%. I do accept that others would love to see the break up of the union but that has little to with republicanism since the SNP support the monarchy. It has little to do with Catholicism either since the catholic church has often advised it's adherents not to vote SNP. They fear the abolition of catholic schools and people like Galloway fear an ant-catholic regime should we become independent. I think you get my point though. The bigotry/prejudice is not always overt as in the way shown in the films. For many it is lower key almost subliminal but no less distasteful in many cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaymarketJambo Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Thankfully, minus the violence. But you have to admit, that's where we were headed, once the nationalism genie was let out of the bottle. People's naivete about the scourge of flagwaving is absolutely startling. Any vote for the SNP, whether you're basically for or against independence, is one more step towards their ultimate goal. Too many useful idiots are helping them along the way. Starve them of votes and they'll return to the wilderness. Don't whine about further creeping Ulsterisation of Scotland. That was inevitable. A lot more silent Tories in Scotland now than you may think. For every action there is a reaction. I agree with the top sentence. After that what utter rubbish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Can you actually read? Or does your gimp Aussie only read out the bits you like? What's going on? You undercover Sevco aye? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Enjoy your wasted trip to the ballot box for the next lifetime. Says the man who thinks "both votes SNP" is/was a good tactic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Brightside Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 A lot of Labour member's voted for Corbyn to be re-elected as Labour Leader last year in fact did he not get more votes this time around? . Probably true, doesn't mean that a sizeable percentage of labour members won't speak out against him. Nobody in the SNP is allowed to be publicly unhappy with any of the leaderships actions. This has backfired a bit with the recent brexit climb down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coconut doug Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 So, are the Catholics who voted yes bigots? What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaymarketJambo Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) Probably true, doesn't mean that a sizeable percentage of labour members won't speak out against him. Nobody in the SNP is allowed to be publicly unhappy with any of the leaderships actions. This has backfired a bit with the recent brexit climb down. Totally agree with you on that one, fair play to him but he got one heck of a mandate. I was one the SNP supporters that voted brexit, so I can't talk on that one. Edited January 31, 2017 by HaymarketJambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 SNP Wee Jimmy Krankie Catholics Ulster Give up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Brightside Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 What do you think? Was kind of wanting to read your view since you brought bigotry into the discussion. There were probably pro IRA Celtic fans voting yes as an anti British vote, so yes some bigots voted yes. Obviously not all Catholics who voted yes are bigots and not all Catholics voted yes. Thinking most Catholics who voted yes are bigots is as crazy as thinking most Protestants who voted no are bigots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Brightside Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Totally agree with you on that one, fair play to him but he got one heck of a mandate. I was one the SNP supporters that voted brexit, so I can't talk on that one. He sure does, but he is totally unelectable for various reasons. I think Corbyn should set up his own Socialist party for far left views and let labour stay centre left. They can vote together in parliament on what the agree on and vote separately on issues they disagree on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Was kind of wanting to read your view since you brought bigotry into the discussion. There were probably pro IRA Celtic fans voting yes as an anti British vote, so yes some bigots voted yes. Obviously not all Catholics who voted yes are bigots and not all Catholics voted yes. Thinking most Catholics who voted yes are bigots is as crazy as thinking most Protestants who voted no are bigots. Only bigots bring in bigotry to a political conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Was kind of wanting to read your view since you brought bigotry into the discussion. There were probably pro IRA Celtic fans voting yes as an anti British vote, so yes some bigots voted yes. Obviously not all Catholics who voted yes are bigots and not all Catholics voted yes. Thinking most Catholics who voted yes are bigots is as crazy as thinking most Protestants who voted no are bigots. But that won't stop the accusation ..... No = Bigot Yes= Not Bigot Made of course by thickos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Brightside Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Only bigots bring in bigotry to a political conversation. Wouldn't know, I didn't bring it up but I did think it was a strange tangent to go off on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Wouldn't know, I didn't bring it up but I did think it was a strange tangent to go off on. It's desperation. Anyone who doesn't vote Yes is a bigoted Tory Toff etc etc. Thicko logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 But that won't stop the accusation ..... No = Bigot Yes= Not Bigot Made of course by thickos. Eh? Hud on? Who is "staunch" on this thread? Name and shame please. Take your time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trapper John McIntyre Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Eh? Hud on? Who is "staunch" on this thread? Name and shame please. Take your time. Define 'staunch'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Eh? Hud on? Who is "staunch" on this thread? Name and shame please. Take your time. No = Bigot Yes = Not Bigot or Tory Toff Good luck finding a partner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 It's desperation. Anyone who doesn't vote Yes is a bigoted Tory Toff etc etc. Thicko logic. Skiing teacher in Europe who agrees with a hard Brexit and the current Tory party mantra. There you have it folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Define 'staunch'. Away off to Bears Den, your club died. Valentines Day, 2012. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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