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Even More SNP Nonsense


Stuart Lyon

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3 hours ago, stevie said:


Always the victims,never their fault ūüĎć

Maybe you can answer the question I asked him - which he has ignored.

Who sets the level of benefit  ? Is it Edinburgh or Westminster ?  Is Universal Credit in operation in Scotland ? If it is , who controls that ? 

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4 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

SNP Inverness guy ripped on Question Time after blaming increase in food banks on Tories

but your running your country from Holyrood ! Don’t you take any blame ??

Do snp politicians do university courses in whinging - embarrassment 

You've been very quiet on this. 

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Seymour M Hersh
13 hours ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Boris didn't get above 45% either.

 

 

Boris didn't indicate he'd only go for indy ref 2 after the polls showed over 50% in favour of it either. The SNP have a core support that is out voting come what may and you have to give them credit for that but there is still no real sign of a massive upswing in support for independence as yet again they failed to get over 45% of the total vote in a pretty healthy 67% turnout. They possibly had the assistance of Labour supporters on Thursday who can never bring themselves to vote conservative but who may actually be unionists in an indy ref. 

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54 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Boris didn't indicate he'd only go for indy ref 2 after the polls showed over 50% in favour of it either. The SNP have a core support that is out voting come what may and you have to give them credit for that but there is still no real sign of a massive upswing in support for independence as yet again they failed to get over 45% of the total vote in a pretty healthy 67% turnout. They possibly had the assistance of Labour supporters on Thursday who can never bring themselves to vote conservative but who may actually be unionists in an indy ref. 

Seriously? That's your pitch! He said get Brexit done. So?

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Maroon Sailor

Why is The Sturge wanting to be Independent but still be part of a Union ?

 

How does that work ? Just choose a Union you want to be part of and claim your Independent because you have broken away from another Union you don't like ?

 

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1 hour ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Boris didn't indicate he'd only go for indy ref 2 after the polls showed over 50% in favour of it either. The SNP have a core support that is out voting come what may and you have to give them credit for that but there is still no real sign of a massive upswing in support for independence as yet again they failed to get over 45% of the total vote in a pretty healthy 67% turnout. They possibly had the assistance of Labour supporters on Thursday who can never bring themselves to vote conservative but who may actually be unionists in an indy ref. 

 

Failed to get over 50% so a majority didn't vote to 'get Brexit done' though. No mandate? 

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8 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

Why is The Sturge wanting to be Independent but still be part of a Union ?

 

How does that work ? Just choose a Union you want to be part of and claim your Independent because you have broken away from another Union you don't like ?

 

 

The EU brings more benefits and more self control than being in the UK does. Its not hard to understand. 

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9 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

Why is The Sturge wanting to be Independent but still be part of a Union ?

 

How does that work ? Just choose a Union you want to be part of and claim your Independent because you have broken away from another Union you don't like ?

 

:sobored:

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Maroon Sailor
10 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

The EU brings more benefits and more self control than being in the UK does. Its not hard to understand. 

 

Any proof of that considering what happened to Italy, Greece and Ireland ?

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6 hours ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Maybe you can answer the question I asked him - which he has ignored.

Who sets the level of benefit  ? Is it Edinburgh or Westminster ?  Is Universal Credit in operation in Scotland ? If it is , who controls that ? 

The Scotland Act 2016 gave us new powers relating to social security, including responsibility over certain benefits.

We are using these powers to create a Scottish social security system based on dignity, fairness and respect.

We have published a series of policy papers setting out our position on the development of the devolved benefits in Scotland.

Actions

We are:

designing a social security system with a strong local presence via the Social Security Scotland agency

engaging with people with experience of receiving benefits, to build a social security system that works for them

improving benefits for carers by increasing the Carer’s Allowance and introducing a Young Carer Grant

improving benefits for disabled people and people with ill health, and confirming that no assessments will be carried out by the private sector

campaigning to maximise benefit take-up

delivering the Best Start Grant to increase support for low-income families with young children

delivering the Funeral Expense Assistance to provide critical financial support to people at a difficult time

providing help with heating costs and extending the Winter Fuel Payment to families with severely disabled children

supporting young people make the transition into work through the Job Start Payment

introducing a Scottish Child Payment for low income families, for children under six the first payments will be made by Christmas 2020 and full roll-out for under 16s by the end of 2022 

allocating budget to local authorities to provide grants under the Scottish Welfare Fund

advising on and helping to fund support with housing costs

working to establish a guidance for definition of terminal illness for the purpose of disability assistance 

working with the Department for Work and Pensions to introduce flexibilities to the way Universal Credit is paid

We have also:

developed a communications toolkit to help our partners inform their staff, clients and stakeholders about the new social security benefits

Background

See which benefits have been devolved to the Scottish Government, and which remain reserved to the UK Government: responsibility for benefits: overview.

All benefits paid in Scotland were managed by the UK Government until April 2013, when Council Tax Reduction and the Scottish Welfare Fund were devolved.


ūüĎć

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Trapper John McIntyre

For the hard of thinking Natz among us, an explanation of why their great victory on 12th December is just another defeat for the SNP.

 

The SNP are unaware of the scale of their defeat

 
 
 
Politics is the continuation of war by other means is to rather mangle Clausewitz but expresses a truth that the SNP and most other Scots missed yesterday.  The SNP may have won a tactical victory, but they suffered a strategic defeat.
 
The SNP goal of creating an independent Scotland, depends on their being granted an independence referendum. But this depended on them holding the balance of power in a hung Parliament and propping up Labour.
 
The Conservatives put in their manifesto that they would not allow a second independence referendum and therefore have a perfect right not to allow one. This was a UK Election and a Government has a right indeed a duty to implement its manifesto. There is nothing undemocratic about this. Quite the reverse.
 
PRI_109814319.jpg
 
 The SNP offensive is the equivalent of the Battle of the Bulge (1944-5). Their tanks pierced the front line and broke through gaining an initial tactical victory. But they were just creating a giant salient and a position that was impossible to defend. Eventually the SNP ran out of petrol could not supply their beleaguered front line and what had seemed to be success eventually turned into strategic failure that hastened their final defeat.
 
The problem the Pro UK side faces is that most Scots are unwilling to exploit the SNP’s strategic defeat. The problem is that most Pro UK Scots agree with the SNP about nearly everything except independence.
 
The first problem is that we are conditioned to view UK elections through the lens of Scotland. We treat Scotland separately and accept the SNP narrative that it ought to be treated in this way. If you treat Scotland separately, you are a separatist.
 
Large numbers of Pro UK Scottish Remainers complained that Scotland did not vote Leave in the 2016 referendum. If you think that Scotland ought to have a veto in UK wide elections, you really ought to join the SNP.
 
But again, far too many Pro UK Scots think that the UK is akin to the EU. They think that the UK is a group of countries that happen to form a union just as long as it is convenient for us to do so. This is historical nonsense. The United Kingdom is one sovereign nation state in the same way that the United States is one sovereign nation state. It matters not at all that the parts of the United States are called ‚Äústates‚ÄĚ while the parts of the UK are called ‚Äúcountries.‚ÄĚ Until and unless Pro UK Scots understand this, they will always be helping the SNP by confirming the SNP narrative and helping them win the argument.
 
It no more matters therefore that Scotland voted to Remain or that the majority of seats went to the SNP than that California voted for Hilary Clinton, but Donald Trump won the presidency. Secession is not justified by losing an election. If it were then no democracy would long endure. If you don’t understand this, you cannot even begin to understand the foundational texts of Western democracy.
 
The SNP should never have been given a first independence referendum. When the Scottish Parliament was established it was made clear that it would have no say on constitutional matters. These would be reserved. How then can the fact that the SNP won a majority in such a Parliament give them the right to decide matters that are outside their remit. It’s the equivalent of California deciding to declare war on Vermont. The same logic obviously applies now. It doesn’t matter if the SNP win a Holyrood majority in 2021. They still cannot decide matters that are reserved for the UK Government.
 
Obviously, the SNP don‚Äôt accept this. They are separatists. The problem we have is supposedly ‚ÄúPro UK‚ÄĚ Scottish commentators and the majority of left-wing Remainer Scots don‚Äôt accept it either. I have lost count of the number times I have read someone who I thought was Pro UK write things that support the SNP narrative and undermine the argument for the UK.
 
The SNP are bonnie fechters. They endure. They ignore defeat. They give it their all and they do everything they can to win. Far too many supposedly Pro UK Scots prefer to collaborate, aid and abet, and concede defeat at the first set back. There may be one hundred opinion polls showing a Pro UK majority in Scotland but let there be just one showing the tiniest nationalist majority and our distinguished newspaper columnists say we are doomed.
 
Scotland has a rather unintelligent intelligentsia, which can’t even make up its mind what to think nowadays. At least the SNP believe in something.
 
The Pro UK argument has never been better, but its left to people like me to make it. Years and years after I began arguing that Brexit will make Scottish independence impossible, I read someone mention it as if he has just discovered the wheel.
 
But the Lefty Remainer mindset prevents far too many Pro UK Scots from thinking strategically. This is why we still divide our forces into three so that the SNP can defeat us in detail. This is why we still repeat the same old tactical voting strategy even when it keeps being defeated in exactly the same way as before. One more push and we’ll beat them isn’t a strategy. It leaves you hanging on the old barbed wire.
 
So, for those who haven’t been following closely. Here is the strategy.
 
Get us out of the EU.
 
Don’t agree with the SNP about anything. Don’t give any legitimacy to their narrative and don’t think or talk about Scotland as being in any way separate.
 
Don’t think that another independence referendum and another nationalist defeat would make the SNP give up their dream of independence. It wouldn’t. It would fuel it. Didn’t you watch last time?
 
Give us time. Delay.
 
Leaving the EU will make the whole of the UK gradually diverge from our European neighbors. As they continue to unite, we will continue to be different. In time this will make the idea of rejoining seem quaint, then it will be impossible. Let us take back control of those massive chunks of ordinary life that the EU presently controls and then let the SNP explain that they are going to give them up in order to join a federal EU. Let them explain how keeping the pound is consistent with promising to give it up. Let them explain how an independent Scotland would start life both outside the UK and outside the EU having to negotiate trade deals with both.
 
That’s it.
 
Keep fighting folks. We are winning.
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4 hours ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Failed to get over 50% so a majority didn't vote to 'get Brexit done' though. No mandate? 

 

Surely the mandate to get Brexit done was the referendum in 2016?

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Maroon Sailor

TheÔĽŅ¬†problem is that most Pro UK Scots agree withÔĽŅ¬†the SNP aboutÔĽŅ¬†nearly everything except¬†ÔĽŅindependenceÔĽŅ.

 

Something The Sturge chooses to ignore in HER quest for Independence. It's not the will of the Scottish people, it's her and her party's will to be Independent first and foremost.

 

 

 

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I didn’t vote for independence in 2014, and probably still wouldn’t if there was a vote tomorrow.

 

BUT I do think there is enough popular support within the general public, and the political landscape has changed enough in the past 5 years to warrant an Indy Ref 2. 

 

Boris should not accept an Indy Ref 2 until after Brexit is concluded tho. 

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Wake up. There is no chance of a Westminster Parliament sanctioned referendum in the life time of this parliament. If that is really all that matters to the SNP, then rather than hounding Boris out of Scotland, they should have tried to get a deal when they had some leverage. Only the DUP are guilty of such amateur political gamesmanship.

 

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4 hours ago, stevie said:

The Scotland Act 2016 gave us new powers relating to social security, including responsibility over certain benefits.

We are using these powers to create a Scottish social security system based on dignity, fairness and respect.

We have published a series of policy papers setting out our position on the development of the devolved benefits in Scotland.

Actions

We are:

designing a social security system with a strong local presence via the Social Security Scotland agency

engaging with people with experience of receiving benefits, to build a social security system that works for them

improving benefits for carers by increasing the Carer’s Allowance and introducing a Young Carer Grant

improving benefits for disabled people and people with ill health, and confirming that no assessments will be carried out by the private sector

campaigning to maximise benefit take-up

delivering the Best Start Grant to increase support for low-income families with young children

delivering the Funeral Expense Assistance to provide critical financial support to people at a difficult time

providing help with heating costs and extending the Winter Fuel Payment to families with severely disabled children

supporting young people make the transition into work through the Job Start Payment

introducing a Scottish Child Payment for low income families, for children under six the first payments will be made by Christmas 2020 and full roll-out for under 16s by the end of 2022 

allocating budget to local authorities to provide grants under the Scottish Welfare Fund

advising on and helping to fund support with housing costs

working to establish a guidance for definition of terminal illness for the purpose of disability assistance 

working with the Department for Work and Pensions to introduce flexibilities to the way Universal Credit is paid

We have also:

developed a communications toolkit to help our partners inform their staff, clients and stakeholders about the new social security benefits

Background

See which benefits have been devolved to the Scottish Government, and which remain reserved to the UK Government: responsibility for benefits: overview.

All benefits paid in Scotland were managed by the UK Government until April 2013, when Council Tax Reduction and the Scottish Welfare Fund were devolved.


ūüĎć

It took you a long time to find that. So can you  clarify  -  and I simpjy asked a couple of questions. 

 

Is Universal Credit used in Scotland ?  

 

The final para refernces a couple of things which doesn't assist me . To what degree has the Scottish govt actually  changed ie improved  welfare payments ? Do they pay  out more or less per capita than England or is it generally the same ? 

 

If I could understand that I could perhaps understand if your point is valid rather than a cheap laugh at the expense of the most disadvanted. 

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1 hour ago, TheOak88 said:

 

Surely the mandate to get Brexit done was the referendum in 2016?

 

That was 3 years ago. This is now. 

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1 hour ago, Maroon Sailor said:

TheÔĽŅ¬†problem is that most Pro UK Scots agree withÔĽŅ¬†the SNP aboutÔĽŅ¬†nearly everything except¬†ÔĽŅindependenceÔĽŅ.

 

Something The Sturge chooses to ignore in HER quest for Independence. It's not the will of the Scottish people, it's her and her party's will to be Independent first and foremost.

 

 

 

 

It wasn't the will of slightly more Scottish people, over 5 years ago (longer than the time between general elections).

 

How do you know what the will is now? Have you held.... a referendum? 

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7 hours ago, Maroon Sailor said:

Why is The Sturge wanting to be Independent but still be part of a Union ?

 

How does that work ? Just choose a Union you want to be part of and claim your Independent because you have broken away from another Union you don't like ?

 

Utterly false argument.

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Maroon Sailor
1 minute ago, Boris said:

Utterly false argument.

 

independent
/…™nd…™ňąp…õnd(…ô)nt/
 
adjective
  1. 1.
    free from outside control; not subject to another's authority.
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36 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

independent
/…™nd…™ňąp…õnd(…ô)nt/
 
adjective
  1. 1.
    free from outside control; not subject to another's authority.

Being in the eu does not make you subject to another authority as membership makes you part of that authority.

 

Westminster is entirely different.

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Maroon Sailor
16 minutes ago, Boris said:

Being in the eu does not make you subject to another authority as membership makes you part of that authority.

 

Westminster is entirely different.

 

Aye I suppose

 

Sturgeon will now have to stomp her feet at bureaucrats in Brussels instead.

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1 minute ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Aye I suppose

 

Sturgeon will now have to stomp her feet at bureaucrats in Brussels instead.

You do know how the eu works don’t you?

Edited by Boris
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Maroon Sailor
4 minutes ago, Boris said:

You do know how the eu works don’t you?

 

I was wondering why we still kept the pound

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4 hours ago, Trapper John McIntyre said:

For the hard of thinking Natz among us, an explanation of why their great victory on 12th December is just another defeat for the SNP.

 

Literally no matter what happened you would claim it's a failure for the SNP though to be fair.

Edited by Smithee
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manaliveits105
3 hours ago, Ray Gin said:

 

It wasn't the will of slightly more Scottish people, over 5 years ago (longer than the time between general elections).

 

How do you know what the will is now? Have you held.... a referendum? 

Latest survey 2 weeks ago

56% against Indy ref 

too bad No happening 

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3 hours ago, Ray Gin said:

 

That was 3 years ago. This is now. 

 

Ah right. What date did the referendum become invalid?

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Trapper John McIntyre
2 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

Literally no matter what happened you would claim it's a failure for the SNP though to be fair.

 Same would be said here for any other party. And it is. Ad Nauseum.

 

Nice to have some balance.

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Psychedelicropcircle

Just wait till This  massive Tory win goes to bojos massive heed & he needs another round of austerity to get his no deal brexit over the line...then measure the Indy support. 

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I suspect Johnson will say the UK Government will allow a referendum if there is a pro-referendum majority after the 2021 Scottish election. If that is the case, could the Scottish Government dissolve parliament for an early election? 

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2 hours ago, Psychedelicropcircle said:

Just wait till This  massive Tory win goes to bojos massive heed & he needs another round of austerity to get his no deal brexit over the line...then measure the Indy support. 

Between 37-45%

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4 hours ago, TheOak88 said:

 

Ah right. What date did the referendum become invalid?

 

When we got told we were being pulled out of the EU against our will.

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2 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

When we got told we were being pulled out of the EU against our will.

 

Doesn’t make sense. 

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4 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

Latest survey 2 weeks ago

56% against Indy ref 

too bad No happening 

 

That's not the latest survey. Here's one from last week

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18087994.scotland-back-post-brexit-independence-new-poll-reveals/

 

"The poll of 1020 voters in Scotland between December 3 and 6 found 51%, would back independence if the UK leaves the EU, while 49% would vote against it."

 

 

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Just now, TheOak88 said:

 

Doesn’t make sense. 

 

Of course it does. We were lied to, the result of the last referendum is invalid. Politicians should not be allowed to say any old crap to win a vote and then do the opposite once they've got the result they wanted.

 

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Maroon Sailor
22 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Of course it does. We were lied to, the result of the last referendum is invalid. Politicians should not be allowed to say any old crap to win a vote and then do the opposite once they've got the result they wanted.

 

 

Who was lied to?

 

Nobody really gave a shit about remaining in the EU at the Independence referendum. People were voting for Scotland to be Independent or remain in the U.K

 

Sturgeon used Brexit as an excuse to get another referendum. She's an opportunist who will not stop beating her Independence drum.

 

It's ALL she cares about

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3 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Who was lied to?

 

Nobody really gave a shit about remaining in the EU at the Independence referendum. People were voting for Scotland to be Independent or remain in the U.K

 

Sturgeon used Brexit as an excuse to get another referendum. She's an opportunist who will not stop beating her Independence drum.

 

It's ALL she cares about

I understand what you mean. 

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4 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Who was lied to?

 

Nobody really gave a shit about remaining in the EU at the Independence referendum. People were voting for Scotland to be Independent or remain in the U.K

 

Sturgeon used Brexit as an excuse to get another referendum. She's an opportunist who will not stop beating her Independence drum.

 

It's ALL she cares about

 

All of us were lied to and 62% of us gave a shit about staying in the EU. 

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Maroon Sailor
Just now, Ray Gin said:

 

All of us were lied to and 62% of us gave a shit about staying in the EU. 

 

No we weren't

 

Minds were already made up on the question Should Scotland be an Independent Country ?

 

Not should Scotland be an Independent Country within the EU ?

 

 

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manaliveits105
2 hours ago, Ray Gin said:

 

That's not the latest survey. Here's one from last week

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18087994.scotland-back-post-brexit-independence-new-poll-reveals/

 

"The poll of 1020 voters in Scotland between December 3 and 6 found 51%, would back independence if the UK leaves the EU, while 49% would vote against it."

 

 

The fecking¬†¬†‚ÄúNational‚Ä̬†

an independent survey aye right

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We have had three referendums this decade. 

The PR one in 2011.

The Scottish Independence in 2014.

The European Union on in 2016.

 

Why do you feel you have a right to overturn any of them?

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7 hours ago, Trapper John McIntyre said:

 Same would be said here for any other party. And it is. Ad Nauseum.

 

Nice to have some balance.

 

Spouting more shite isn't balance mate, it's just more shite. 

But whatever, if you dont care about your credibility why would I? Knock yourself out!

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3 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

The fecking¬†¬†‚ÄúNational‚Ä̬†

an independent survey aye right

 

The national is just reporting the result of a panelbase survey, which tories were happy to give credence to in the run up to the election.

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5 hours ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Who was lied to?

 

Nobody really gave a shit about remaining in the EU at the Independence referendum. People were voting for Scotland to be Independent or remain in the U.K

 

Sturgeon used Brexit as an excuse to get another referendum. She's an opportunist who will not stop beating her Independence drum.

 

It's ALL she cares about

Scottish! National! Party! It's in the name.

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On 13/12/2019 at 22:56, Roxy Hearts said:

There isn't a constitution in the UK. 

 

Ok.- in that case explain why constitutional matters aren't devolved matters to Holyrood and a Section 30 order is required for the nationalists to hold a legally binding referendum?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum

 

I really don't see where the SNP could go with this as any legal challenge looks pointless.  Notably I think Sturgeon knows this as I haven't heard her talk about it.

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