Jambo-Jimbo Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Doubtful. People seem to forget that in the eyes of europe (broadly speaking of course!) Britain started this, first by voting to leave the club, then by taking an aggressive, slightly dickish stance from day one as May tries to be Iron Lady II Not a chance, not even close. If this had been 'The Iron Lady' Europe would be shaking in their boots and as for Merkel & Hollande they'd be mincemeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Not a chance, not even close. If this had been 'The Iron Lady' Europe would be shaking in their boots and as for Merkel & Hollande they'd be mincemeat. If this had been the Iron Lady we wouldn't have had a referendum on Brexit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Not a chance, not even close. If this had been 'The Iron Lady' Europe would be shaking in their boots and as for Merkel & Hollande they'd be mincemeat. Indeed, but the point stands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Hollande also saying that trade talks will be AFTER Brexit is finalised. This is after Juncker AND Merkel also saying that. That adds 2-3 years of more uncertainty to the UK economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Hollande also saying that trade talks will be AFTER Brexit is finalised. This is after Juncker AND Merkel also saying that. That adds 2-3 years of more uncertainty to the UK economy. Ah, it'll be reet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Albert Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Hollande also saying that trade talks will be AFTER Brexit is finalised. This is after Juncker AND Merkel also saying that. That adds 2-3 years of more uncertainty to the UK economy. but the uk is being aggressoive and dickish? Just tell them we won't be first to impose tariffs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 but the uk is being aggressoive and dickish? Just tell them we won't be first to impose tariffs Oh yes, from day one, and this is exactly the reaction you'd expect from leaders who can't be seen to be pushed around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydug Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 By that logic then, if any of the Spanish regions were to gain their independence from Spain, would that take Spain out of the EU? Also by that logic, if Scotland had gained Independence in 2014, would they have dragged England, Wales and Northern Ireland out of the EU against their will? Regardless the legality of it all, it won't really matter, as by the time any Indy2 is decided upon, the whole of The United Kingdom, as decided by the people of The United Kingdom, will be out of the EU. You mean as decided by the people of England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Merkel says no trade deals at the same time as Brexit deals. First, you leave. THEN you negotiate a trade deal from the outside. It's falling apart already. It's interesting how Yes/Remainers are applying the old No arguments on being in a union and receiving the benefits of a union can only happen from within a union and that those leaving that union won't get the full rights and benefits or a say on how that union is run. It's the opposite of certain parts of thd Yes 2014 canpaign... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 If this had been the Iron Lady we wouldn't have had a referendum on Brexit! Really? She was no fan of the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Really? She was no fan of the EU.Correct. She'd never have signed Maastricht. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Really? She was no fan of the EU. Not according to Heseltine the other day. I think she saw it as better to be in the tent pissing out, than out the tent pissing in. Geoff's point re Maastricht is possibly valid, but it wouldn't have led to the UK leaving the EU, imo. Thatcher was all about markets and the EU is simply the biggest single market for the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Not according to Heseltine the other day. I think she saw it as better to be in the tent pissing out, than out the tent pissing in. Geoff's point re Maastricht is possibly valid, but it wouldn't have led to the UK leaving the EU, imo. Thatcher was all about markets and the EU is simply the biggest single market for the UK. Maggie was brought down by the Tories for telling the truth about Europe. Her "No, no, no" speech that she was widely pillioried for is unerringly accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Maggie was brought down by the Tories for telling the truth about Europe. Her "No, no, no" speech that she was widely pillioried for is unerringly accurate. But she was still pragmatic enough to understand the importance to UK trade of being part of the single market. And she had the personality (careful, sounds like I'm being affection to the Auld Dear!) to try to work within the European framework. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 But she was still pragmatic enough to understand the importance to UK trade of being part of the single market. And she had the personality (careful, sounds like I'm being affection to the Auld Dear!) to try to work within the European framework.Indeed. The point stands though. She would have had the intestinal fortitude to not sign Maastricht, the treaty that effectively created a superstate called the European Union as opposed to a single market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydug Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Davies is pushing to get that very subject settled first when the talks start for both EU citizens here and folk like yourself. I wouldn't trust that Davies guy to run a bath. He gives the impression of being totally out of depth and can't even answer simple questions such as how our entitlement to emergency medical treatment when on holiday will be affected. His answer to that question was he hadn't thought about it . Seems there is an awful lot him and his cronies haven't thought about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Indeed. The point stands though. She would have had the intestinal fortitude to not sign Maastricht, the treaty that effectively created a superstate called the European Union as opposed to a single market. Absolutely, Thatcher would never have signed the Maastricht treaty, indeed would the Maastricht treaty have ever seen the light of day if Thatcher had still been around, I doubt it. She was quite happy with close economic trade like the single market, but closer monetary & political union which would make a European super state (which is what it is), not a hope. I was never a fan of Thatcher but she'd have put Merkel, Hollande, Juncker & Tusk firmly in their place, that I have no doubts about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 It's interesting how Yes/Remainers are applying the old No arguments on being in a union and receiving the benefits of a union can only happen from within a union and that those leaving that union won't get the full rights and benefits or a say on how that union is run. It's the opposite of certain parts of thd Yes 2014 canpaign... Whats good for the goose... We want to govern ourselves We dont want to be told what to do We dont want to be part of a union (The UK Government and EU Leave campaigners) OK for them to say it...Bad for Scotland to say the same! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Hollande also saying that trade talks will be AFTER Brexit is finalised. This is after Juncker AND Merkel also saying that. That adds 2-3 years of more uncertainty to the UK economy. Donald Tusk is now saying that they WILL now open trade talks once enough progress has been made on the terms of the exit. So it would seem that the trade talks could take place in parallel with the 'Brexit' talks, eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMac Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Donald Tusk is now saying that they WILL now open trade talks once enough progress has been made on the terms of the exit. So it would seem that the trade talks could take place in parallel with the 'Brexit' talks, eventually. Everything will be sorted out eventually. What it will look like and how much damage/toryification is done is the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo lodge Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Whats good for the goose... We want to govern ourselves We dont want to be told what to do We dont want to be part of a union (The UK Government and EU Leave campaigners) OK for them to say it...Bad for Scotland to say the same! Problem for the SNP is that they already have new powers but are choosing not to use them and they have asked Westminster to delay transfer of welfare powers. How can we "govern ourselves" when it is patently obvious we cannot even govern with the new powers we have been given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Donald Tusk is now saying that they WILL now open trade talks once enough progress has been made on the terms of the exit. So it would seem that the trade talks could take place in parallel with the 'Brexit' talks, eventually. I know I'm quoting myself. Tusk now saying that there will be no parallel talks, but still say's that they will open trade talks once enough progress is made on the exit deal, isn't that parallel talks? Mixed messages coming out from the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Whats good for the goose... We want to govern ourselves We dont want to be told what to do We dont want to be part of a union (The UK Government and EU Leave campaigners) OK for them to say it...Bad for Scotland to say the same! You need to get rid of that "we" what you mean is "you" The majority in Scotland are not part of the "we " to which you refer perhaps use I, or "the 452, or,. more accurately " the minority of Scots" Using we is not accurate- you are part of a minority political movement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Murray Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 I know I'm quoting myself. Tusk now saying that there will be no parallel talks, but still say's that they will open trade talks once enough progress is made on the exit deal, isn't that parallel talks? Mixed messages coming out from the EU. A lot of grandstanding and posturing, by both sides. Like a poker game with nobody wanting to be seen to be the first to blink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 A lot of grandstanding and posturing, by both sides. Like a poker game with nobody wanting to be seen to be the first to blink. The EU will blink first the "divorce bill" is cobblers and they know it. When you leave a job you don't get a bill for he outstanding company projects or pension commitments do you? When a new "member" joins the EU its not like they don't pay in for a few years because the budgets are already covered. The new member states that join after we leave will cover our commitments and inherit the assets we have built up And the fiscal nonsense of the EU will be laid bare once UK would, rightly, insist on signed off accounts to prove what we owed- which they cannot provide, and that's that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 The EU will blink first the "divorce bill" is cobblers and they know it. When you leave a job you don't get a bill for he outstanding company projects or pension commitments do you? When a new "member" joins the EU its not like they don't pay in for a few years because the budgets are already covered. The new member states that join after we leave will cover our commitments and inherit the assets we have built up And the fiscal nonsense of the EU will be laid bare once UK would, rightly, insist on signed off accounts to prove what we owed- which they cannot provide, and that's that I'm not so sure, myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 I'm not so sure, myself. I think they will try...... the problem they have is because its one of the contributor nations that are leaving I'd love it if it was one of the smaller nations Like Poland could they go - "that's it. we're off, and because we're leaving the EU owes us ?100 billion to cover what they would have given us" I don't feckin think so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Sitting here in Tenerife airport waiting to fly home and its heaving with Brits, there is no way the EU will prevent that amount of money being spent in an EU country.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 A lot of grandstanding and posturing, by both sides. Like a poker game with nobody wanting to be seen to be the first to blink. Exactly, half the time what's said in front of the camera's is to appease their own electorate, to make them look strong, whilst behind the scenes a lot of compromising and horse trading is going on. When a deal is done it'll be structured and worded as such as both sides win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Sitting here in Tenerife airport waiting to fly home and its heaving with Brits, there is no way the EU will prevent that amount of money being spent in an EU country.. How would they prevent Brits from going abroad? It's not like we only started to travel to Mainland European Countries once the EU came into existence is it. We didn't need visa's before the EU and we won't need them after we've left, nothing will change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 How would they prevent Brits from going abroad? It's not like we only started to travel to Mainland European Countries once the EU came into existence is it. We didn't need visa's before the EU and we won't need them after we've left, nothing will change. Exactly Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 How would they prevent Brits from going abroad? It's not like we only started to travel to Mainland European Countries once the EU came into existence is it. We didn't need visa's before the EU and we won't need them after we've left, nothing will change. Indeed I always used to holiday in Europe and had to show my passport, Once we joined the EU I holidayed in Europe and had to show my passport When we leave it will be exactly the same the only thing is that once the Euro came in I tend no to holiday outside the EU because the euro made going to Italy, spain and Greece far more expensive than it should be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 You need to get rid of that "we" what you mean is "you" The majority in Scotland are not part of the "we " to which you refer perhaps use I, or "the 452, or,. more accurately " the minority of Scots" Using we is not accurate- you are part of a minority political movement The 'we' I refer to is the Bexiteers. The point being that UK nationalism in the context of Brexit was all about getting back powers etc. Much the same as what the Scottish Indy movement is all about however; it seems that it's Ok for the EU leavers to assert their Independence but not for the Scots to do the same. Seems like double standards to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaymarketJambo Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 So Teresa May our Prime Minister for the next couple year's is going try and sort out trade deals and the rest with the EU and then try and do trade deals with the rest of the world and top this off we have the shambles that is Northern Ireland and also Gibraltar? So with all this going on who's looking after the the UK then? Policing - Employment - Home Affairs - Education - Health etc, yet our First Minister gets slagged off from Ruth Davidson and the Tories about the day job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 So Teresa May our Prime Minister for the next couple year's is going try and sort out trade deals and the rest with the EU and then try and do trade deals with the rest of the world and top this off we have the shambles that is Northern Ireland and also Gibraltar? So with all this going on who's looking after the the UK then? Exactly! I cant remember Dugdale or Davidson shouting for her to 'Concentrate on her day job' More Double standards but thats OK (for them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Not according to Heseltine the other day. I think she saw it as better to be in the tent pissing out, than out the tent pissing in. Geoff's point re Maastricht is possibly valid, but it wouldn't have led to the UK leaving the EU, imo. Thatcher was all about markets and the EU is simply the biggest single market for the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Sitting here in Tenerife airport waiting to fly home and its heaving with Brits, there is no way the EU will prevent that amount of money being spent in an EU country.. Even although Tenerife is outwith EU customs union? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 To be honest, I had half expected a reply like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 I wouldn't trust that Davies guy to run a bath. He gives the impression of being totally out of depth and can't even answer simple questions such as how our entitlement to emergency medical treatment when on holiday will be affected. His answer to that question was he hadn't thought about it . Seems there is an awful lot him and his cronies haven't thought about. How the hell can he give answers to things that have not been negotiated yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 The EU will blink first the "divorce bill" is cobblers and they know it. When you leave a job you don't get a bill for he outstanding company projects or pension commitments do you? When a new "member" joins the EU its not like they don't pay in for a few years because the budgets are already covered. The new member states that join after we leave will cover our commitments and inherit the assets we have built up And the fiscal nonsense of the EU will be laid bare once UK would, rightly, insist on signed off accounts to prove what we owed- which they cannot provide, and that's that If they keep up with the BS about controlling our VAT (and possibly other taxes) I'd say take a hike, walk away and use the WTO as the trading scheme of choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 So Teresa May our Prime Minister for the next couple year's is going try and sort out trade deals and the rest with the EU and then try and do trade deals with the rest of the world and top this off we have the shambles that is Northern Ireland and also Gibraltar? So with all this going on who's looking after the the UK then? Policing - Employment - Home Affairs - Education - Health etc, yet our First Minister gets slagged off from Ruth Davidson and the Tories about the day job? You don't actually believe that May herself is going to sit down and negotiate all the trade deals and other deals that need doing, do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 How the hell can he give answers to things that have not been negotiated yet? I think that it's more that it hadn't been thought about, and therefore they don't have a position on it. If you don't want to be stiffed, you need to know what's up for grabs and what you are actually negotiating over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 If they keep up with the BS about controlling our VAT (and possibly other taxes) I'd say take a hike, walk away and use the WTO as the trading scheme of choice. ???? I tried to find something that related to this, and all I could see was this. https://www.theguardian.com/small-business-network/2016/mar/22/eu-referendum-brexit-change-vat-import-duties It's our govt in the UK that sets VAT, not the EU. EDIT: Ah, ok, gotcha. https://www.financialdirector.co.uk/2016/07/08/brexit-what-it-means-for-the-uk-vat-system/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussieh Posted March 31, 2017 Author Share Posted March 31, 2017 Yes, I can see it now. "So the UK signed this treaty and a part of the UK seceded. Therefore, it's clear that the part that seceded is the successor country. Case dismissed". No,it can be argued that both Parliaments are now back to pre Union status. So GB is no more, but as Scotland want to remain as EU citizens, well we could become a smaller inheritor state. I don't see why we have to just accept it, when big companies will be going to court about this. Time Scotland stood up for itself, or succumb to imperial rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Even although Tenerife is outwith EU customs union? To be fair Boris, it's not like it makes a difference (EU customs union) anymore, seeing as you can't even take a half litre bottle of water through security nowadays and therefore bang goes the days when you could load up with litres of cheap booze stuffed into your backpack. You need to put it in your case now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussieh Posted March 31, 2017 Author Share Posted March 31, 2017 You need to get rid of that "we" what you mean is "you" The majority in Scotland are not part of the "we " to which you refer perhaps use I, or "the 452, or,. more accurately " the minority of Scots" Using we is not accurate- you are part of a minority political movement We as in Scots, you'll find he means. rUK and EU citizens took the no vote past 50%.Scotland's people are Scots. I hope that clears it up, Brit. The Majority of Scotland that voted no were not Scots, the Majority of Scots voted Yes. Tick Tock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 No,it can be argued that both Parliaments are now back to pre Union status. So GB is no more, but as Scotland want to remain as EU citizens, well we could become a smaller inheritor state. I don't see why we have to just accept it, when big companies will be going to court about this. Time Scotland stood up for itself, or succumb to imperial rule. No it can't. For starters, there was another union that occurred in 1801 and altered in 1921. Was the UK dissolved in 1921? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussieh Posted March 31, 2017 Author Share Posted March 31, 2017 No it can't. For starters, there was another union that occurred in 1801 and altered in 1921. Was the UK dissolved in 1921?And? The origin of the UK is GB, Scotland and England. Ireland left the UK, (as for NI it might be Ulster, but Ulster isn't NI). Scotland's citizen are EU citizens and that can be argued as Scotland as successor state. Christ I think I started using the term UK about 5 year ago, it was GB before then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 And? The origin of the UK is GB, Scotland and England. Ireland left the UK, (as for NI it might be Ulster, but Ulster isn't NI). Scotland's citizen are EU citizens and that can be argued as Scotland as successor state. Christ I think I started using the term UK about 5 year ago, it was GB before then. You just argued against your own point. Scotland would be leaving the UK. That said, it is pointless arguing with you. You live in a bubble of delusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Murray Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 While you may well be correct about aussieh, it is not impossible to imagine that if Scotland were leaving the UK before Brexit then the EU would change the rules to allow them to stay, if the will is there is will be done. Would need all other member states to agree to that scenario, and as we know, as we are seeing now, nothing happens quickly or easily within the EU, not when you're trying to look after the interests of 27 countries. Very difficult to see how Scotland could become Independent and become a member state of the EU before Brexit is complete. Don't forget either, there is no doubt Scots out there who value the Union that greatly, who would be willing to go down the legal route that some of the Remain voters done with the Brexit vote. The whole scenario of Indyref2 before Brexit, never mind Indyref2 complete and Scotland in the EU, is a political and legal minefield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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