Brexit?

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

True but he never thought he'd lose. 

 

Took an unnecessary risk as a sop to some hard liners in his party. Bad mistake.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Depressing if you are a remainer. But you can't blame or give credit to the Daily Mail for MPs votes. Having voted overwhelmingly to hold a referendum I think enough will feel morally obliged to accept the result irrespective of their personal views. If not MPs are even bigger unprincipled shits than they are given credit for.

 

Yeah, true, it's depressing if you voted the way I voted, which lots of people didn't to be fair.

 

I'll be pleased when Article 50 gets triggered. The interim is causing too much aggro

[Seymour M Hersh]

Took an unnecessary risk as a sop to some hard liners in his party. Bad mistake.

 

No just didn't word it properly as he never thought he'd lose. Should have said the realist would be carried out by parliament whichever way it went.

[Fxxx the SPFL]

This probably just a stupid question but given that we were offered a referendum on leaving Europe is there anything to stop an MP putting forward a new motion on a new referendum asking for a new vote I'm sure with all the uncertainty in the economy we would possibly have a different outcome then we could stop this costly nonsense. I personally still see us trying to finalise Brexit for far more than two years after Article 50 has been triggered.

 

anyway as i said probably a stupid question.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

This probably just a stupid question but given that we were offered a referendum on leaving Europe is there anything to stop an MP putting forward a new motion on a new referendum asking for a new vote I'm sure with all the uncertainty in the economy we would possibly have a different outcome then we could stop this costly nonsense. I personally still see us trying to finalise Brexit for far more than two years after Article 50 has been triggered.

 

anyway as i said probably a stupid question.

 

No such thing as stupid questions in the Brexit debate. No-one has a fecking clue how it's going to shake down or what will happen.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

No just didn't word it properly as he never thought he'd lose. Should have said the realist would be carried out by parliament whichever way it went.

 

He should never have allowed a referendum in the first place. That's my view.

[Francis Albert]

This probably just a stupid question but given that we were offered a referendum on leaving Europe is there anything to stop an MP putting forward a new motion on a new referendum asking for a new vote I'm sure with all the uncertainty in the economy we would possibly have a different outcome then we could stop this costly nonsense. I personally still see us trying to finalise Brexit for far more than two years after Article 50 has been triggered.

 

anyway as i said probably a stupid question.

Just keep re-running the referendum until the voters give the "right" result?

 

There is certainly good precedent for it. Indeed the EU's idea of democracy has been precisely that, whenever pesky votes have rejected the progress of the European project towards "ever closer union".

 

I am not sure why uncertainty in the economy is greater now than it was when the (first) vote was held. In fact some things are less uncertain - we know a Leave vote will not plunge us into recession, cause immediate job losses, and force an emergency austerity budget, or lead to imminent break upof the UK, as we were told it would last time.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

So the problem isn't immigration, rather the unscrupulous "capitalists" happy to use slave labour and other illegal practices to make a bigger profit.

Surely this is where the ire of the people should be aimed at?  These are the people who are ruining the coountry, taking liberties etc but never, ever ar ethey called out for the expoiltative oppressors that they truly are.

 

What is the government doing about this?  Square root fo bugger all.

 

Boris, I've never once said Immigration is the problem, what I have said is to have unlimited unchecked Immigration, well that is a different matter.

 

I agree with everything else you say, more should be done that's for sure, however it would appear not to be a priority right now, if it ever has been.

 

I'm not having a pop at anybody honest, but it amazes me just how many folks seem to think that all that needs done is report it to your union, talk to your MP, go to citizens advice etc etc etc.

The folks who are working for ?3 per hour, generally don't have those options open to them, whether that be through fear, intimidation, the sack, need the job and the money, lack of knowledge in the form of either not speaking much or any English, knowledge of their rights etc etc etc.  These people are easily exploited and a whole industry has grown up around them, there is some serious money to be made here.

 

Consumers called for the jobs to be brought back to the UK (Made in the UK label) whilst still wanting to pay as little as possible for them, well the end result is exploitation, not so much amongst British workers but amongst immigrants, who for the reasons above tend not to complain. 

Amongst the clothing industry as was shown last night the exploitation is being carried out chiefly by people from within their own demographic ethnic group (Asians), which makes complaining all the more difficult.

 

This is just one of the problems Mr. Trump is going to face as well, by bringing jobs back to the USA and then trying to compete price wise with China & the Far East, what wages are the US workers expecting to get?

But that question is for another thread.

[Ibrahim Tall]

Just keep re-running the referendum until the voters give the "right" result?

 

There is certainly good precedent for it. Indeed the EU's idea of democracy has been precisely that, whenever pesky votes have rejected the progress of the European project towards "ever closer union".

 

I am not sure why uncertainty in the economy is greater now than it was when the (first) vote was held. In fact some things are less uncertain - we know a Leave vote will not plunge us into recession, cause immediate job losses, and force an emergency austerity budget, or lead to imminent break upof the UK, as we were told it would last time.

Do we? We still haven't invoked article 50 and there's still a vote in parliament to confirm if we even can or not. Until that point we're still an EU nation and not even one that's stated it'll leave. We're effectively the guy you work beside that bitches and moans about his job all day but does nothing about it.

 

The impression during the referendum was the next day Dave would invoke article 50 not runaway and leave it for someone else. All those side effects could still follow the real event.

[Boris]

Boris, I've never once said Immigration is the problem, what I have said is to have unlimited unchecked Immigration, well that is a different matter.

 

I agree with everything else you say, more should be done that's for sure, however it would appear not to be a priority right now, if it ever has been.

 

I'm not having a pop at anybody honest, but it amazes me just how many folks seem to think that all that needs done is report it to your union, talk to your MP, go to citizens advice etc etc etc.

The folks who are working for ?3 per hour, generally don't have those options open to them, whether that be through fear, intimidation, the sack, need the job and the money, lack of knowledge in the form of either not speaking much or any English, knowledge of their rights etc etc etc.  These people are easily exploited and a whole industry has grown up around them, there is some serious money to be made here.

 

Consumers called for the jobs to be brought back to the UK (Made in the UK label) whilst still wanting to pay as little as possible for them, well the end result is exploitation, not so much amongst British workers but amongst immigrants, who for the reasons above tend not to complain. 

Amongst the clothing industry as was shown last night the exploitation is being carried out chiefly by people from within their own demographic ethnic group (Asians), which makes complaining all the more difficult.

 

This is just one of the problems Mr. Trump is going to face as well, by bringing jobs back to the USA and then trying to compete price wise with China & the Far East, what wages are the US workers expecting to get?

But that question is for another thread.

 

But we don't have unlimited, unchecked immigration, even as part of the EU.

 

Agree with the rest of your post though.  Pretty much bang on!

[Francis Albert]

Do we? We still haven't invoked article 50 and there's still a vote in parliament to confirm if we even can or not. Until that point we're still an EU nation and not even one that's stated it'll leave. We're effectively the guy you work beside that bitches and moans about his job all day but does nothing about it.

 

The impression during the referendum was the next day Dave would invoke article 50 not runaway and leave it for someone else. All those side effects could still follow the real event.

Maybe but Project Fear would I think be a little less effective now that far from the sky falling in the UK economy has since the vote been about the strongest in the west.

 

Anyway it's all academic and we will never know.

[AlimOzturk]

.

[JamboX2]

The last sentence is nonsense. The Supreme Court is part of the Constitution and the law, and the fact that 3 of the Supreme Court judges voted against shows there were legitimate different views on the issue. The Supreme Court is a fairly new innovation (a Blair invention I think) and its powers will be determined by cases such as these. It looks like we may be seeing the beginning of more judicial influence on the way laws are made as well as interpreted, with the Supreme Court becoming more politically powerful, if not to the extent of its US counterpart. It will be interesting to see if there is more intervention in the use of the Royal Prerogative, which up to now has rarely (if ever?) been challenged, for example on foreign interventions by UK forces (or the application of EU laws for that matter).

Whether you think this is a good thing or not is another matter.

The perogative has been challenged before in a few instances. This isn't new.

 

The Supreme Court replaced the old appeal court of the House of Lords. It performs the same function but officially separates Parliament and Court. Which is good.

 

Also, Parliament has since Blair made military force (by convention) a matter which parliament needs to be consulted on and vote on.

 

So, the Supreme Court is attempting to place this within the mainstream of current UK practice.

[JamboX2]

Burnham

Struggles with shoelaces sadly.

[jake]

Struggles with shoelaces sadly.

 

You're a member of tory lite sorry the labour party.

Who would you have as leader?

[JamboX2]

You're a member of tory lite sorry the labour party.

Who would you have as leader?

I genuinely don't know. Thornberry, Abbott and a few others in the Shadow Cabinet wouldn't be near it.

 

Folk who have impressed me over recent years include Keir Starmer, Chukka Ummuna, Yvette Cooper, Stella Creasy have impressed me. On the left I'd say that Clive Lewis has been impressive. The likes of McDonnell and Corbyn are out of date quite frankly. Fighting battles lost in the 1980s.

 

I'd argue Labour should seek to field a woman leader for once. However, Labour has a bit of a talent drain of late. But those named I think woukd do a lot better than Corbyn in crafting a message and winning voters over.

 

Edit: Tory lite but led by Corbyn... up is down, down is left, left is right...

[Francis Albert]

The perogative has been challenged before in a few instances. This isn't new.

 

The Supreme Court replaced the old appeal court of the House of Lords. It performs the same function but officially separates Parliament and Court. Which is good.

 

Also, Parliament has since Blair made military force (by convention) a matter which parliament needs to be consulted on and vote on.

 

So, the Supreme Court is attempting to place this within the mainstream of current UK practice.

Fair enough but as you say "in a few instances", and as I said it will be interesting to see if it becomes more common.

 

I was responding to a complaint about the government flouting constitutional law by appealing the Supreme Court decision. The Government had every right to appeal and three out of eleven judges supported the appeal, so it was not an outrageous decision to appeal.

[JamboX2]

Fair enough but as you say "in a few instances", and as I said it will be interesting to see if it becomes more common.

 

I was responding to a complaint about the government flouting constitutional law by appealing the Supreme Court decision. The Government had every right to appeal and three out of eleven judges supported the appeal, so it was not an outrageous decision to appeal.

Indeed it wasn't outrageous to appeal.

 

I'd argue the counter on what they were trying to prevent though.

[jake]

I genuinely don't know. Thornberry, Abbott and a few others in the Shadow Cabinet wouldn't be near it.

 

Folk who have impressed me over recent years include Keir Starmer, Chukka Ummuna, Yvette Cooper, Stella Creasy have impressed me. On the left I'd say that Clive Lewis has been impressive. The likes of McDonnell and Corbyn are out of date quite frankly. Fighting battles lost in the 1980s.

 

I'd argue Labour should seek to field a woman leader for once. However, Labour has a bit of a talent drain of late. But those named I think woukd do a lot better than Corbyn in crafting a message and winning voters over.

 

Edit: Tory lite but led by Corbyn... up is down, down is left, left is right...

 

Corbyn was elected by unions.

The plp is controlled by oxbridge.

 

Perhaps explains the media bias dont you think.

[AlphonseCapone]

I genuinely don't know. Thornberry, Abbott and a few others in the Shadow Cabinet wouldn't be near it.

 

Folk who have impressed me over recent years include Keir Starmer, Chukka Ummuna, Yvette Cooper, Stella Creasy have impressed me. On the left I'd say that Clive Lewis has been impressive. The likes of McDonnell and Corbyn are out of date quite frankly. Fighting battles lost in the 1980s.

 

I'd argue Labour should seek to field a woman leader for once. However, Labour has a bit of a talent drain of late. But those named I think woukd do a lot better than Corbyn in crafting a message and winning voters over.

 

Edit: Tory lite but led by Corbyn... up is down, down is left, left is right...

There is a severe lack of talent in Labour the now. Thornberry came across as useless last week on QT. Chukka seems like a bit of a dick tbh, so far up his own arse.

[JamboX2]

Corbyn was elected by unions.

 

Utterly wrong. He was elected by a majority of party members. Unions form part of the membership under one member one vote.

 

The plp is controlled by oxbridge.

 

More "alternative facts"? According to the Sutton Trust 20% (a fifth) of Labours current MPs attended Oxbridge.

 

Not a majority. Certainly not a controlling majority.

 

Perhaps explains the media bias dont you think.

Perhaps. Perhaps part of the issue is also Corbyn's lack of leader skills.

[JamboX2]

There is a severe lack of talent in Labour the now. Thornberry came across as useless last week on QT. Chukka seems like a bit of a dick tbh, so far up his own arse.

Chukka has a bit of gravity about him. He's also pretty forward thing: advocating expansive devolution to England including immigration to Scotland, Wales and NI.

 

But I agree there's not a lot of talent about.

[jake]

There is a severe lack of talent in Labour the now. Thornberry came across as useless last week on QT. Chukka seems like a bit of a dick tbh, so far up his own arse.

 

There is a severe lack of empathy with the people most deserving of protection in the labour party.

 

Cheap jeans is the cause of their membership .

At the cost of working people.

 

As long as they're not british .

 

 

Its very easy this blame game.

 

 

No wonder jambox2 is quick to respond.

[jake]

Never mind the cycle of things will come fortory lite policy.

And oasis type bands will adorn like american ones did with obama.

 

Haha yeeeeeessssssssss

[jack D and coke]

There is a severe lack of talent in Labour the now. Thornberry came across as useless last week on QT. Chukka seems like a bit of a dick tbh, so far up his own arse.

Chukka imo would alienate Scottish voters further. Doesn't come across as labour to me in the slightest and if he was chocolate he'd eat himself I agree. Smug prick.

[JamboX2]

Chukka imo would alienate Scottish voters further. Doesn't come across as labour to me in the slightest and if he was chocolate he'd eat himself I agree. Smug prick.

In fairness, Labour could resurrect Keir Hardie and have him as leader and he would alienate Scottish voters by being a non-Scottish MP and advocating UK wide socialism.

 

Labour has lost a lot of trust in Scotland from many on the Yes side because they backed No. And with their middle class voters they're no longer scared to back Tories (that stigma is subsiding) and the SNP occupy the centrist position on tax they like.

 

I thought Salmond was a smug prick. Did him no harm. Thought Cameron was too. Again... Chukka was one proposed competent leader to Jake as a Corbyn alternative.

 

Issue is, Tories can play nationalism better. Labour is squeezed by support for UKIP and Nationalist parties elsewhere. It is struggling to get a narrative that plays to the many across the UK. It's not unique: Le Pen, Wilders, AdF are all expected to do well at the expense of the centre-left. It's a current issue.

 

Labour is facing a new 1930s. Out of that though came Attlee, Bevan, Tam Johnson and Morrison. Doesn't need to be all bad.

[JamboX2]

There is a severe lack of empathy with the people most deserving of protection in the labour party.

 

Cheap jeans is the cause of their membership .

At the cost of working people.

 

As long as they're not british .

 

 

Its very easy this blame game.

 

 

No wonder jambox2 is quick to respond.

Vote UKIP mate. All for the working man. All for leaving the EU. Privatising the NHS. All for the slashing of welfare. For cutting employment rights.

 

For the working man.

 

Down is up etc.

[jake]

Vote UKIP mate. All for the working man. All for leaving the EU. Privatising the NHS. All for the slashing of welfare. For cutting employment rights.

 

For the working man.

 

Down is up etc.

 

 

Yeah.

I voted ukip because i want an end to the EU.

I voted yes because im a supremacist .

I vote for green because im a whatever

I call out right wing racist religion because im a bigot

I call out a president because he is not white

I call out america because im anti americam

I call out bombs because i liked more bombs

Up is down

 

I am ignorant and abusive because i receive it.

[jake]

How lazy has the arguments become ?

[JamboX2]

Yeah.

I voted ukip because i want an end to the EU.

I voted yes because im a supremacist .

I vote for green because im a whatever

I call out right wing racist religion because im a bigot

I call out a president because he is not white

I call out america because im anti americam

I call out bombs because i liked more bombs

Up is down

 

I am ignorant and abusive because i receive it.

No. I am not saying you voted UKIP (how do I know?) I'm arguing that the alternative to Labour (UKIP being the prime example used) is not going to protect people of their rights.

 

You can attack Labour all you want. But do so on the basis that UKIP don't really care about people who make cheap jeans for a farthing a day.

 

You're going in circles here with a lot of stuff.

[jake]

No. I am not saying you voted UKIP (how do I know?) I'm arguing that the alternative to Labour (UKIP being the prime example used) is not going to protect people of their rights.

 

You can attack Labour all you want. But do so on the basis that UKIP don't really care about people who make cheap jeans for a farthing a day.

 

You're going in circles here with a lot of stuff.

 

I am going in circles.

 

If you were governed by dogma.

[JamboX2]

I am going in circles.

 

If you were governed by dogma.

Aye whatever.

 

Pretty despairing atm with politics and all that jazz so going to bow out for a period of time on this.

[jake]

Aye whatever.

 

Pretty despairing atm with politics and all that jazz so going to bow out for a period of time on this.

 

Dont.

 

Right is right wrong is wrong.

 

Its really simple

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Corbyn absolutely hopeless at PMQs today. Wrong-footed at the start and didn't have the wit to adjust.

 

What so many people want him to be Labour leader I'll never know. He's an empty suit.

[Arse 'Friends' Dyslexic?]

Corbyn absolutely hopeless at PMQs today. Wrong-footed at the start and didn't have the wit to adjust.

 

What so many people want him to be Labour leader I'll never know. He's an empty suit.

 

It's taken me a while but I finally worked out who Corbyn reminds me of.

 

[Francis Albert]

Corbyn absolutely hopeless at PMQs today. Wrong-footed at the start and didn't have the wit to adjust.

 

What so many people want him to be Labour leader I'll never know. He's an empty suit.

His strongest and most vocal supporters are not really that interested in parliamentary democracy and see it as an ineffective bourgeois institution protecting the status quo. Corbyn in his entire career has never shown much interest in what you have to do to achieve anything through parliament - build a broad coalition within the party and if necessary across parties. He has been a rebel all his career, more interested in extra-parliamentary protest and grandstanding than the difficult task of obtaining consensus at least across the broad left.

[Don Dan]

Corbyn embarrassing blunder, preceded an abysmal performance.

 

"During PMQs Jeremy Corbyn mistakenly said that the police office who was shot in Northern Ireland at the weekend had died. Afterwards his spokesman said that Corbyn had meant to say that the police officer had ?nearly died? and that Corbyn had not intended to cause offence."

 

The Police Federation for Northern Ireland is angered by what he said.

[AlphonseCapone]

His strongest and most vocal supporters are not really that interested in parliamentary democracy and see it as an ineffective bourgeois institution protecting the status quo. Corbyn in his entire career has never shown much interest in what you have to do to achieve anything through parliament - build a broad coalition within the party and if necessary across parties. He has been a rebel all his career, more interested in extra-parliamentary protest and grandstanding than the difficult task of obtaining consensus at least across the broad left.

Pretty much bang on.

 

I liked him at first but it is obvious he is not close to being a leader. The PLP though, with their idiotic behaviour, have made it difficult to get rid of him at the moment because he has won two leadership contests with landsides.

 

Had they shown some patience and political intelligence, he'd have made an arse of himself still and they'd have been more likely to get support for someone else. Instead, they jizzed in their pants.

 

But that is simply more evidence that there is little political intelligence in Labour just now, hence why they are currently an non-entity, North and South.

[Francis Albert]

Corbyn embarrassing blunder, preceded an abysmal performance.

 

"During PMQs Jeremy Corbyn mistakenly said that the police office who was shot in Northern Ireland at the weekend had died. Afterwards his spokesman said that Corbyn had meant to say that the police officer had ?nearly died? and that Corbyn had not intended to cause offence."

 

The Police Federation for Northern Ireland is angered by what he said.

Actually in his initial statement he said the officer had "lost his life". His spokesman's suggestion that he meant to say "nearly died" therefore makes no sense whatsoever. If he had said he meant to say he "nearly lost his life" it might have made some sense as an attempt to cover up the gaffe.

[Francis Albert]

Pretty much bang on.

 

I liked him at first but it is obvious he is not close to being a leader. The PLP though, with their idiotic behaviour, have made it difficult to get rid of him at the moment because he has won two leadership contests with landsides.

 

Had they shown some patience and political intelligence, he'd have made an arse of himself still and they'd have been more likely to get support for someone else. Instead, they jizzed in their pants.

 

But that is simply more evidence that there is little political intelligence in Labour just now, hence why they are currently an non-entity, North and South.

Agreed. As a life-long Labour supporter it is depressing that the only UK party that looks remotely electable at present is the Conservative party (and the SNP in Scotland).

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Actually in his initial statement he said the officer had "lost his life". His spokesman's suggestion that he meant to say "nearly died" therefore makes no sense whatsoever. If he had said he meant to say he "nearly lost his life" it might have made some sense as an attempt to cover up the gaffe.

 

They are totally out of their depth. You'd have thought in the prep for PMQs they might have planned for the eventuality that May would promise a white paper. It was so obviously going to happen.

 

I appreciate the lack of alternatives in the Labour Party but the people steadfastly backing Corbyn seem to think that they're sticking it up someone, rather than sticking it up themselves. This is killing the party.

[Ibrahim Tall]

Vote to leave the EU partly over fears of Turkey joining, then prioritise visiting Turkey(2nd only the US) to lay the groundwork for a free trade deal.

[Francis Albert]

Vote to leave the EU partly over fears of Turkey joining, then prioritise visiting Turkey(2nd only the US) to lay the groundwork for a free trade deal.

You'll have to explain why that is funny or illogical, even if I accept the dodgy premise that that is why people voted to leave the EU.

 

(And of course Turkey is far from the second place she has discussed a free trade deal with, and the USA was by no means the first)

[deesidejambo]

Vote to leave the EU partly over fears of Turkey joining, then prioritise visiting Turkey(2nd only the US) to lay the groundwork for a free trade deal.

It makes sense.  If Turkey join the EU you get more migration and subsidies to Turkey, neither of which May wants.

 

A Trade Deal means you buy and sell stuff between countries without tariffs, like what the EU (then the Common Market) was designed for in the first place!

[Don Dan]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/588948/The_United_Kingdoms_exit_from_and_partnership_with_the_EU_Web.pdf

[aussieh]

14 weeks holiday, aye

[Cade]

From the Government's White Paper on Brexit.

 

 

 

So we always had Sovereignty, but because people FELT we didn't, we've left the EU.

 

Jesus fecking wept.

 

[Francis Albert]

From the Government's White Paper on Brexit.

 

 

 

So we always had Sovereignty, but because people FELT we didn't, we've left the EU.

 

Jesus fecking wept.

 

Technically sovereign yes. In practice less so, Which is of course exactly the point being made.

[aussieh]

Technically sovereign yes. In practice less so, Which is of course exactly the point being made.

If England don't have sovereignty, what is it we don't have?

That's right, dignity.

Anyone who thinks The EU and The UK is comparable to The UK and Scotland is a total Muppet.

Muppet=Unionist=Brit=Muppet

 

 

Sovereignty, dignity and full democracy is on it's way, Scots will no longest be denied by our very own Uncle Toms.

 

Tick fecking Tock onionists

[Mister T]

If England don't have sovereignty, what is it we don't have?

That's right, dignity.

Anyone who thinks The EU and The UK is comparable to The UK and Scotland is a total Muppet.

Muppet=Unionist=Brit=Muppet

 

 

Sovereignty, dignity and full democracy is on it's way, Scots will no longest be denied by our very own Uncle Toms.

 

Tick fecking Tock onionists

"Brit"

You sure you're not green brigade?