Brexit?

[Trapper John McIntyre]

Bet we are not in power and have not won the referendum.

 

I'll ask you again, where is the extra ?350m per week savings going to be spent?

 

 

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Who knows? But I bet some of it gets spent on Scotland. You know, along with that thing called 'Barnett' that the ghastly, xenophobic and hateful English tax payer gives us freely of the sweat of his brow in order to keep you and your fellow Natz in the style in which you've become used to.

 

Can you answer the currency question?

[JamboX2]

Do you have any evidence that the Indy movement is furious after being led to defeat?

 

You are the one displaying despair and fury with your lost decade stuff and the loss of EU citizenship etc. The SNP seems to be the only ones doing anything to mitigate against it and if that means Indyref 2 then so be it. The situation is entirely the making of the Conservative Party which has taken us out of the EU against our wishes and on false pretences. Despite campaigning for Brexit the Foreign Secretary did not want it. How silly is that?

There is no "nonsense" from Sturgeon. There is a clear statement that Scotland's interests, in this case including yours, will be fought for. This is not the "nuclear option", it is the only realistic option.

 

You have the audacity to deride the SNP for not having a "summer of independence" yet the government has no plans for Brexit and the Labour Party has run a massively debilitating civil war. What do you think the SNP should do, ignore Brexit and the wishes of 62% of voters in Scotland?

Not at all. But I'll give the SNP credit for a strong and consistent position against the divisive nonsense against immigration these past few months.

 

My issue, i suppose, is that the Scottish government cannot in one breath protest a democratic decision by saying it doesn't account for the will of Scottish Remain voters and yet declare a new campaign for independence which disrespects the will of No voters.

 

That is a tricky balancing act.

 

The lack of Brexit planning and Labour's civil war this summer has been nothing short of a national dereliction of duty. But to argue for a second that independence bring mooted alongside that chaos does anything to provide stability for the nation is a bit of a laugh. Independence will result in an equally unplanned for period of negotiations and discussions with no one fully aware of what they're up to.

[Space Mackerel]

Who knows? But I bet some of it gets spent on Scotland. You know, along with that thing called 'Barnett' that the ghastly, xenophobic and hateful English tax payer gives us freely of the sweat of his brow in order to keep you and your fellow Natz in the style in which you've become used to.

 

Can you answer the currency question?

"Who knows"

 

 

 

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[Trapper John McIntyre]

"Who knows"

 

 

 

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You

 

"Who knows"

 

 

 

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You are about as amusing as a mass grave.

 

Still deflecting too, I see.

[Space Mackerel]

You

 

You are about as amusing as a mass grave.

 

Still deflecting too, I see.

?350 million please?

 

Take your time.

 

 

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[jake]

Yeah, let's leave the trading bloc of 550 million people to one of 70 million.

 

Smart move.

 

 

 

 

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Do you just ignore facts.

 

Almost half our exports are to England.

Less than 15% are to the EU.

 

I dont think either will be affected by brexit or independence.

 

Yet the snp tell us only exiting the european union will affect us and exiting the union with england wont.

 

The snp want to leave the union with westminster where we have a 10% stake.

Then join a european union where we have a 2% stake.

 

 

Pointless you will just give me some stupid facebook meme as a retort

[JamboX2]

Yeah, let's leave the trading bloc of 550 million people to one of 70 million.

 

Smart move.

 

 

 

 

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Again though, with Brexit, Scotland's exports are at about 50% to the rUK. 25% or thereabouts to the EU. So now Brexit is happening which gives us a choice - 50% or 25%?

[jake]

?350 million please?

 

Take your time.

 

 

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How many times do you need it explained.

Honest tae fek .

[Trapper John McIntyre]

?350 million please?

 

Take your time.

 

 

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Currency please?

 

Take your time. I've got all night.

[Trapper John McIntyre]

How many times do you need it explained.

Honest tae fek .

 Chill, Jake.

 

I've got him hooked.

[Space Mackerel]

See this ?350 million per week that's so beneficial to us, can anyone tell us what we are getting back?

 

Anyone who voted Leave. Trapper? John? Jake?

 

 

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[jake]

See this ?350 million per week that's so beneficial to us, can anyone tell us what we are getting back?

 

Anyone who voted Leave. Trapper? John? Jake?

 

 

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We dont get it back.

We stop paying it.

 

 

Makeral can you answer my points regarding political influence regarding westminster and brussels?

 

My guess is you cant.

 

Its a fundemental flaw in the snp argument .

Its also a fundemental flaw the economic argument regarding indy from westminster and the eu.

 

You cant just keep repeating 350 million question which ive answered several times.

[jake]

Currency please?

 

Take your time. I've got all night.

 

Scottish independence: Scotland should use pound, says Adam Smith Institute - BBC News

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28869991

 

This might help.

While i have issues with snp and their btexit stance and their shameful hypocrisy i think there is plenty Scotland can do given power to affect their own economy.

 

Right now the economy is set for the south of rngland.

 

Same argument applies to brexit

[michael_bolton]

Not at all. But I'll give the SNP credit for a strong and consistent position against the divisive nonsense against immigration these past few months.

 

My issue, i suppose, is that the Scottish government cannot in one breath protest a democratic decision by saying it doesn't account for the will of Scottish Remain voters and yet declare a new campaign for independence which disrespects the will of No voters.

 

That is a tricky balancing act.

 

The lack of Brexit planning and Labour's civil war this summer has been nothing short of a national dereliction of duty. But to argue for a second that independence bring mooted alongside that chaos does anything to provide stability for the nation is a bit of a laugh. Independence will result in an equally unplanned for period of negotiations and discussions with no one fully aware of what they're up to.

 

I don't think it really is at all. It doesn't take a lot of thinking to fully understand the SNP's position.

 

Step one: During the Scottish referendum campaign, the No campaign made a lot of ground by creating doubt that an independent Scotland would be able to join/remain in the EU. It was claimed that remaining in the union was the safest way to ensure Scotland remained in the EU.

 

Step Two: After remaining in the UK, Scotland is then taken out of the EU by voters elsewhere in the very union that was supposed to stop this happening.

 

This establishes that it is the general will of Scottish voters that they'd like Scotland to be in the EU. It seems like a big enough change to circumstances for the SNP (or any other party) to now say that it is fair to ask the question again. Now that being part of the UK involves not being in the EU, do you still want to stay? Especially since the referendum support in Scotland for the EU was a good bit stronger than that for the union with England.

 

Seems pretty straightforward.

[deesidejambo]

I don't think it really is at all. It doesn't take a lot of thinking to fully understand the SNP's position.

 

Step one: During the Scottish referendum campaign, the No campaign made a lot of ground by creating doubt that an independent Scotland would be able to join/remain in the EU. It was claimed that remaining in the union was the safest way to ensure Scotland remained in the EU.

 

Step Two: After remaining in the UK, Scotland is then taken out of the EU by voters elsewhere in the very union that was supposed to stop this happening.

 

This establishes that it is the general will of Scottish voters that they'd like Scotland to be in the EU. It seems like a big enough change to circumstances for the SNP (or any other party) to now say that it is fair to ask the question again. Now that being part of the UK involves not being in the EU, do you still want to stay? Especially since the referendum support in Scotland for the EU was a good bit stronger than that for the union with England.

 

Seems pretty straightforward.

Indeed it is Nicola said a change in circumstance will trigger another IndyRef.

 

She got that change handed to her on a plate.

 

So why isn't she calling one?

 

It's because the polls have not shifted and she will lose again so she has bottled it.

 

It's simple, she will wait and wait and wait till she gets the polls solidly in her favour, which may never happen especially as the economic case is in tatters. Until then alll families in Scotland will pay the price of uncertainty.

 

Her dafties like SM will keep agitating for it.

[michael_bolton]

Indeed it is Nicola said a change in circumstance will trigger another IndyRef.

 

She got that change handed to her on a plate.

 

So why isn't she calling one?

 

It's because the polls have not shifted and she will lose again so she has bottled it.

 

It's simple, she will wait and wait and wait till she gets the polls solidly in her favour, which may never happen especially as the economic case is in tatters. Until then alll families in Scotland will pay the price of uncertainty.

 

Her dafties like SM will keep agitating for it.

 

Again, there's no mystery to that. The line for quite some time has been that there will be one when there is an appetite for it. As you say, the polls don't show that at the moment. She's doing exactly what she said, so I don't see why people try to paint it as some mystery or sinister plot. This is what she said she would (or wouldn't) do.

 

I don't really buy the uncertainty line. Businesses will always campaign for more 'certainty'. Of course they will. But life doesn't work like that. The political landscape of Scotland (and the UK, and wider Europe) is complicated at the moment. That's just the way it is and all the pleas in the world won't provide 'certainty' for anyone. More or less every state in the world exists coping with levels of uncertainty. We're no different from anyone else in that regard and it's frankly not as big a deal as some make out.

 

A large percentage of our population wish Scotland to be an independent country. Almost as large as the percentage who don't. You can't create political certainty when the electorate don't provide it. Many campaigning on the No side hoped that winning the referendum would put the independence issue to bed. It hasn't. It's not the SNP who have decided that. It's public opinion.

[deesidejambo]

Again, there's no mystery to that. The line for quite some time has been that there will be one when there is an appetite for it. As you say, the polls don't show that at the moment. She's doing exactly what she said, so I don't see why people try to paint it as some mystery or sinister plot. This is what she said she would (or wouldn't) do.

 

I don't really buy the uncertainty line. Businesses will always campaign for more 'certainty'. Of course they will. But life doesn't work like that. The political landscape of Scotland (and the UK, and wider Europe) is complicated at the moment. That's just the way it is and all the pleas in the world won't provide 'certainty' for anyone. More or less every state in the world exists coping with levels of uncertainty. We're no different from anyone else in that regard and it's frankly not as big a deal as some make out.

 

A large percentage of our population wish Scotland to be an independent country. Almost as large as the percentage who don't. You can't create political certainty when the electorate don't provide it. Many campaigning on the No side hoped that winning the referendum would put the independence issue to bed. It hasn't. It's not the SNP who have decided that. It's public opinion.

Your last sentence is incorrect. As far as I remember the polls for holding another Ref are at about 30-40% so public opinion is nowhere near a mandate.

[jack D and coke]

Again, there's no mystery to that. The line for quite some time has been that there will be one when there is an appetite for it. As you say, the polls don't show that at the moment. She's doing exactly what she said, so I don't see why people try to paint it as some mystery or sinister plot. This is what she said she would (or wouldn't) do.

 

I don't really buy the uncertainty line. Businesses will always campaign for more 'certainty'. Of course they will. But life doesn't work like that. The political landscape of Scotland (and the UK, and wider Europe) is complicated at the moment. That's just the way it is and all the pleas in the world won't provide 'certainty' for anyone. More or less every state in the world exists coping with levels of uncertainty. We're no different from anyone else in that regard and it's frankly not as big a deal as some make out.

 

A large percentage of our population with Scotland to be an independent country. Almost as large as the percentage who don't. You can't create political certainty when the electorate don't provide it.

Good post.

I don't buy the uncertainty line either it's just another unionist stick to beat people over the head with and make out the SNP are causing it all. They are playing to their supporters and why not? You might not agree with it but it's fair enough imo.

Frankly it's social media that causes people perception of uncertainty imo constantly posting about it constantly reading about it when if less people would wet their drawers it wouldnt seem so drastic. Brexit? I'm not a yoorapean anymore Independence? I'm not a Brit anymore I'm ashamed of my governent

Who gives a toss honestly?!Little badges that don't really mean anything.

 

 

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[frankblack]

Had to switch off Andrew Marr programme with Nicola.

 

She is now wantimg new devolved powers to allow Scotland to negotiate to stay in the EU, while still being in UK, and wants to set up an office in Berlin.

 

There are so many flaws in her position that I think Andrew Marr just let her dig her own grave and walk into it.

 

Spain have stated categorically that EU negotiations will only be with the UK, not Scotland and that position is not going to change.

 

Its time Ncky and her chums focused on running the Scottish Government and leave issues for the UK to the UK government. If she wants other powers, call a new Indy Referendum today or STFU.

[michael_bolton]

Your last sentence is incorrect. As far as I remember the polls for holding another Ref are at about 30-40% so public opinion is nowhere near a mandate.

 

That's not what I said.

 

I said public opinion was providing the uncertainty. 30-40% of the public being keen on another referendum is going to provide political uncertainty regardless of the government's policy.

[Francis Albert]

That's not what I said.

 

I said public opinion was providing the uncertainty. 30-40% of the public being keen on another referendum is going to provide political uncertainty regardless of the government's policy.

Is it possible some of those 30 to 40% want another referendum because they want the issue of independence killed off for a decade or two by the likely further win for "No"?

[michael_bolton]

Is it possible some of those 30 to 40% want another referendum because they want the issue of independence killed off for a decade or two by the likely further win for "No"?

 

Of course that's possible.

 

But irrelevant to the point being made.

 

Who people are going to vote for is not the issue. The fact that a large percentage of the electorate want the referendum to happen opens the door to both results and provides uncertainty. Even if the government were pro-union and against holding another referendum, the fact that there is a great deal of public support for one would be enough to provide the very political uncertainty we're talking about.

[Deodato]

Again, there's no mystery to that. The line for quite some time has been that there will be one when there is an appetite for it. As you say, the polls don't show that at the moment. She's doing exactly what she said, so I don't see why people try to paint it as some mystery or sinister plot. This is what she said she would (or wouldn't) do.

 

I don't really buy the uncertainty line. Businesses will always campaign for more 'certainty'. Of course they will. But life doesn't work like that. The political landscape of Scotland (and the UK, and wider Europe) is complicated at the moment. That's just the way it is and all the pleas in the world won't provide 'certainty' for anyone. More or less every state in the world exists coping with levels of uncertainty. We're no different from anyone else in that regard and it's frankly not as big a deal as some make out.

 

A large percentage of our population wish Scotland to be an independent country. Almost as large as the percentage who don't. You can't create political certainty when the electorate don't provide it. Many campaigning on the No side hoped that winning the referendum would put the independence issue to bed. It hasn't. It's not the SNP who have decided that. It's public opinion.

 

This is one of the best political posts on JKB, balanced and meaningful.

 

I share the agitation with businesses who always campaign for more certainty. Really? Really!

 

To quote (Scottish) economist John Kay, to be a fan of markets does not make you a fan of business.

 

And if businesses (and banks) wanted certainty, why were there actions in 2008 (e.g. self certification) not aligned with their beliefs.

 

Hyman Minsky nailed it when he said 'stability is destabilising': hence what businesses want should not be given superior treatment, given what they do.

 

Deodato

[Francis Albert]

Of course that's possible.

 

But irrelevant to the point being made.

 

Who people are going to vote for is not the issue. The fact that a large percentage of the electorate want the referendum to happen opens the door to both results and provides uncertainty. Even if the government were pro-union and against holding another referendum, the fact that there is a great deal of public support for one would be enough to provide the very political uncertainty we're talking about.

Fair enough. I agree with your dismissal of "business uncertainty" in this context.

 

And indeed it applies to business pleading in general.

 

In Hard Times, Dickens describes the threats of mill owners to close the mills and up sticks when legislation threatened their freedom to routinely sever or mangle workers' limbs, then because the requirement for education for children up to 12 which would deprive them of labour, then because there was an attempt to place some limits on air and water pollution. 150 years on, nothing really changes where business leaders are concerned.

[Francis Albert]

Coming back to the 21st century, from what I could gather Sturgeon is VERY anger with "right wing Tories" for pushing for so called "hard Brexit". But like it or not that's what the UK voted for. "Soft Brexit" is a post-referendum invention of remainers, in which as far as I understand everything remains as it was except loss of UK representation in the EU institutions. No-one voted for that.

 

She is also angry about "little Englanders" and their desire to control immigration. I always find that a bit rich from a nation that hasn't experienced mass immigration since the Irish in the 19th Century and parts of which are still stuggling a bit to deal with that.

 

She also has a very exaggerated view of how much the rest of Europe cares about Scotland. Sending a message to our "friends in Europe" that "Scotland is open for business"? So is the rest of the UK!

 

Trade delegation office in Berlin? Is that really a spending priority at a time no-one knows what the trading relationship between Scotland and Germany will be?

[JamboX2]

Good post.

I don't buy the uncertainty line either it's just another unionist stick to beat people over the head with and make out the SNP are causing it all. They are playing to their supporters and why not? You might not agree with it but it's fair enough imo.

Frankly it's social media that causes people perception of uncertainty imo constantly posting about it constantly reading about it when if less people would wet their drawers it wouldnt seem so drastic. Brexit? I'm not a yoorapean anymore Independence? I'm not a Brit anymore I'm ashamed of my governent

Who gives a toss honestly?!Little badges that don't really mean anything.

 

 

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As I posted earlier, it's not a badge. It's not like saying I'm a cyclist or a footballer. These things have rights attached to them. Rights you can exercise and enjoy: right to free movement of labour for example.

 

I think that is a very important to consider.

[Space Mackerel]

Coming back to the 21st century, from what I could gather Sturgeon is VERY anger with "right wing Tories" for pushing for so called "hard Brexit". But like it or not that's what the UK voted for. "Soft Brexit" is a post-referendum invention of remainers, in which as far as I understand everything remains as it was except loss of UK representation in the EU institutions. No-one voted for that.

 

She is also angry about "little Englanders" and their desire to control immigration. I always find that a bit rich from a nation that hasn't experienced mass immigration since the Irish in the 19th Century and parts of which are still stuggling a bit to deal with that.

 

She also has a very exaggerated view of how much the rest of Europe cares about Scotland. Sending a message to our "friends in Europe" that "Scotland is open for business"? So is the rest of the UK!

 

Trade delegation office in Berlin? Is that really a spending priority at a time no-one knows what the trading relationship between Scotland and Germany will be?

The rest of the EU are pressing for a hard Brexit. It was said before the referendum that there would be no deals and no cherry picking.

All leaders have been consistent with this so far.

 

 

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[Francis Albert]

The rest of the EU are pressing for a hard Brexit. It was said before the referendum that there would be no deals and no cherry picking.

All leaders have been consistent with this so far.

 

 

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Agreed, Brexit has always meant what is now called "hard Brexit" not the remainers' invented "soft Brexit" ie remain much as before..

[Francis Albert]

As I posted earlier, it's not a badge. It's not like saying I'm a cyclist or a footballer. These things have rights attached to them. Rights you can exercise and enjoy: right to free movement of labour for example.

 

I think that is a very important to consider.

The right to free movement of labour is a bit like the right to dine at the Ritz ... irrelevant for all but a tiny minority.

 

And of course people lived and worked abroad before the EU and will do so after we leave. In fact the other financial centres of Europe seem pretty keen on attracting bankers and other financial servivice people from London.

[Space Mackerel]

Agreed, Brexit has always meant what is now called "hard Brexit" not the remainers' invented "soft Brexit" ie remain much as before..

So it's a fallacy for May to pretend there is room for any negotiations.

The rest of the EU will dictate the terms.

 

And then Scotland will have its referendum and more than likely leave the Union.

 

 

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[frankblack]

So it's a fallacy for May to pretend there is room for any negotiations.

The rest of the EU will dictate the terms.

 

And then Scotland will have its referendum and more than likely leave the Union.

 

 

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I don't think May will accept terms that aren't in the UK's interest. Free Movement of Labour won't be negotiable, for example.

 

The SNP will get a pasting if they held a Referendum right now. I would guess No would comfortably get 70% plus once the economic case for independence is scrutinised. They can't go hiding behind "Scottish Oil" as their economic fairy godmother.

[Space Mackerel]

I don't think May will accept terms that aren't in the UK's interest. Free Movement of Labour won't be negotiable, for example.

 

The SNP will get a pasting if they held a Referendum right now. I would guess No would comfortably get 70% plus once the economic case for independence is scrutinised. They can't go hiding behind "Scottish Oil" as their economic fairy godmother.

70% [emoji23][emoji23]

 

Meanwhile on earth...

 

 

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[Space Mackerel]

Wee ginger dug

 

CAN you hear the sound of distant whining? That?s the metrocommentariat britsplaining Nicola Sturgeon?s announcement that she?s going to start consultations on a draft bill for a second independence referendum. They tell us that she doesn?t really want another independence referendum, which is the exact same thing that they were telling us when the SNP won their landslide victory in 2011 and Alex Salmond called a referendum even though polls showed less than a third intended to vote Yes. Or they patiently explain that the SNP isn?t going to start the campaign until the polls show that there?s a strong lead for independence, and there isn?t any majority. Which is the same as saying that you?re not going to campaign for something until you?ve already won all the arguments so there?s no need to campaign.

 

Some claim that although there?s a political argument for independence, and that the political argument has never been better, the economic argument has never been worse. Will no-one think of the deficit that?s larger than that of Greece? After 300 years of Westminster rule, Scotland has developed the poorest and worst managed economy in a continent which includes countries where tax evasion is a national sport.

 

Unionists never follow this argument through to its logical conclusion. They never pause to wonder ?So whose fault is that then?? Because what they?re really saying is that it?s as a part of the UK that Scotland has become an economic basketcase, to use the term employed by Mail journalist Isabel Oakeshott on BBC Question Time this week, and therefore Scotland has been too impoverished by UK economic mismanagement in order to stand on its own two feet.

 

It?s the Westminster parliament which has kept its hands firmly on the levers of macroeconomic control for the past 300 years. If Scotland is a basketcase it sure as hell isn?t down to the past few years of SNP Government. Scotland?s economy has been ruined by the United Kingdom and yet we?re told that?s a reason for Scotland to remain under the control of the people who?ve ruined it. Which is like saying that while you know that your lodger has been robbing you for the past year you?re too poor now to manage financially by yourself so you?re dependent on keeping the lodger.

 

The fact of the matter is that Scotland is uniquely blessed among the countries of this world. We?ve got so much in the way of energy resources it?s positively embarrassing. As well as all that oil and gas which are such a volatile burden and we?re so terribly lucky to have those nice people at Westminster to take off our hands for us, we?ve got 300 years worth of coal that we?re leaving in the ground. We?ve got peat too, but exploiting that resource is likewise bad for the environment so we leave it alone. We?ve got a quarter of the renewable energy resources of the entire EU, and we?ve only just started to exploit that. We?ve got so much in the way of energy resources that we can actually afford to have a national conversation about whether or not to exploit the large energy resources available through fracking, because we don?t need it ourselves and it?s a technology that?s damaging to our environment. Other countries don?t have that luxury. They don?t have energy resources that they can pick and choose between.

 

We?ve got so much fresh water, falling out the sky in annoyingly large quantities, that the Scots word for drought, drooth, has come to mean a thirst for alcohol, because the concept of being short of water is alien to Scotland. There?s an example of the Sapir Whorf hypothesis in action.

 

Scotland?s blessings don?t stop there. We?ve got a highly-educated population. A higher proportion of Scottish people have further education qualifications than any other country in Europe. We?re tenement Scots, and we?re better educated than people from the rest of the UK. We?ve got four universities that figure in the list of the top 100 universities in the world and have an enviable record for invention and innovation. We?ve even got innovative jam, just ask people from Dundee. Everywhere on the path of scientific progress, there?s a Scottish person involved somewhere along the line, so much so that a few years ago an American historian wrote a book entitled ?How the Scots invented the modern world?.

 

We?ve got almost two thirds of Britain?s fish stocks which in turn represent a majority of the EU?s fish stocks. We?ve got a whisky industry that brings in billions. We?ve got a computer games industry that does likewise. We?ve got a tourism industry that attracts visitors by their thousands.

 

We?ve got democratic institutions which function. We?ve got such a mature democracy that we were able to have an independence referendum and the only martyr was Jim Murphy?s shirt. We?re in a geopolitically quiet and stable part of the globe. We have no territorial claims on anyone, no-one has any territorial claims on us. Our border with England is one of the oldest in Europe.

 

If you wanted to list the ingredients for the ideal peaceful, stable, prosperous and democratic independent state, you?d list Scotland?s ingredients. Yet the Westminster parliament has taken those ingredients and baked a stale and inedible cake with a soggy bottom. The supposed weakness of the Scottish economy is not an argument against independence, it?s an argument for it. It?s an argument for us getting out of this dysfunctional state before Brexit makes things even worse. It?s an argument for independence.

 

 

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[frankblack]

Wee ginger dug

 

CAN you hear the sound of distant whining? That?s the metrocommentariat britsplaining Nicola Sturgeon?s announcement that she?s going to start consultations on a draft bill for a second independence referendum. They tell us that she doesn?t really want another independence referendum, which is the exact same thing that they were telling us when the SNP won their landslide victory in 2011 and Alex Salmond called a referendum even though polls showed less than a third intended to vote Yes. Or they patiently explain that the SNP isn?t going to start the campaign until the polls show that there?s a strong lead for independence, and there isn?t any majority. Which is the same as saying that you?re not going to campaign for something until you?ve already won all the arguments so there?s no need to campaign.

 

Some claim that although there?s a political argument for independence, and that the political argument has never been better, the economic argument has never been worse. Will no-one think of the deficit that?s larger than that of Greece? After 300 years of Westminster rule, Scotland has developed the poorest and worst managed economy in a continent which includes countries where tax evasion is a national sport.

 

Unionists never follow this argument through to its logical conclusion. They never pause to wonder ?So whose fault is that then?? Because what they?re really saying is that it?s as a part of the UK that Scotland has become an economic basketcase, to use the term employed by Mail journalist Isabel Oakeshott on BBC Question Time this week, and therefore Scotland has been too impoverished by UK economic mismanagement in order to stand on its own two feet.

 

It?s the Westminster parliament which has kept its hands firmly on the levers of macroeconomic control for the past 300 years. If Scotland is a basketcase it sure as hell isn?t down to the past few years of SNP Government. Scotland?s economy has been ruined by the United Kingdom and yet we?re told that?s a reason for Scotland to remain under the control of the people who?ve ruined it. Which is like saying that while you know that your lodger has been robbing you for the past year you?re too poor now to manage financially by yourself so you?re dependent on keeping the lodger.

 

The fact of the matter is that Scotland is uniquely blessed among the countries of this world. We?ve got so much in the way of energy resources it?s positively embarrassing. As well as all that oil and gas which are such a volatile burden and we?re so terribly lucky to have those nice people at Westminster to take off our hands for us, we?ve got 300 years worth of coal that we?re leaving in the ground. We?ve got peat too, but exploiting that resource is likewise bad for the environment so we leave it alone. We?ve got a quarter of the renewable energy resources of the entire EU, and we?ve only just started to exploit that. We?ve got so much in the way of energy resources that we can actually afford to have a national conversation about whether or not to exploit the large energy resources available through fracking, because we don?t need it ourselves and it?s a technology that?s damaging to our environment. Other countries don?t have that luxury. They don?t have energy resources that they can pick and choose between.

 

We?ve got so much fresh water, falling out the sky in annoyingly large quantities, that the Scots word for drought, drooth, has come to mean a thirst for alcohol, because the concept of being short of water is alien to Scotland. There?s an example of the Sapir Whorf hypothesis in action.

 

Scotland?s blessings don?t stop there. We?ve got a highly-educated population. A higher proportion of Scottish people have further education qualifications than any other country in Europe. We?re tenement Scots, and we?re better educated than people from the rest of the UK. We?ve got four universities that figure in the list of the top 100 universities in the world and have an enviable record for invention and innovation. We?ve even got innovative jam, just ask people from Dundee. Everywhere on the path of scientific progress, there?s a Scottish person involved somewhere along the line, so much so that a few years ago an American historian wrote a book entitled ?How the Scots invented the modern world?.

 

We?ve got almost two thirds of Britain?s fish stocks which in turn represent a majority of the EU?s fish stocks. We?ve got a whisky industry that brings in billions. We?ve got a computer games industry that does likewise. We?ve got a tourism industry that attracts visitors by their thousands.

 

We?ve got democratic institutions which function. We?ve got such a mature democracy that we were able to have an independence referendum and the only martyr was Jim Murphy?s shirt. We?re in a geopolitically quiet and stable part of the globe. We have no territorial claims on anyone, no-one has any territorial claims on us. Our border with England is one of the oldest in Europe.

 

If you wanted to list the ingredients for the ideal peaceful, stable, prosperous and democratic independent state, you?d list Scotland?s ingredients. Yet the Westminster parliament has taken those ingredients and baked a stale and inedible cake with a soggy bottom. The supposed weakness of the Scottish economy is not an argument against independence, it?s an argument for it. It?s an argument for us getting out of this dysfunctional state before Brexit makes things even worse. It?s an argument for independence.

 

 

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TL;DR

[Space Mackerel]

TL;DR

Your loss.

 

 

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[frankblack]

70% [emoji23][emoji23]

 

Meanwhile on earth...

 

 

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"Meanwhile on earth" - this coming from someone called "Space Mackerel"

 

Truly desperate response from you.

 

The SNP are playing a dangerous game assuming that they will get their 45% plus Remain voters.

 

How many of the 45% voted for Brexit and would vote against the SNP trying to deny their wishes?

 

The SNP's financial case for Independence is in tatters after the oil collapse.

[deesidejambo]

 

"Meanwhile on earth" - this coming from someone called "Space Mackerel"

 

Truly desperate response from you.

 

The SNP are playing a dangerous game assuming that they will get their 45% plus Remain voters.

 

How many of the 45% voted for Brexit and would vote against the SNP trying to deny their wishes?

 

The SNP's financial case for Independence is in tatters after the oil collapse.

Indeed the economic case is ruined but the problem is that many Indy voters are Republicans and/or Tory haters so they will vote for Indy no matter what the economics show.

 

But will Nippy get to her 60%? No. Thankfully the non Weeg and Dundee population think more carefully than the Indy nutters.

[JamboX2]

The right to free movement of labour is a bit like the right to dine at the Ritz ... irrelevant for all but a tiny minority.

 

And of course people lived and worked abroad before the EU and will do so after we leave. In fact the other financial centres of Europe seem pretty keen on attracting bankers and other financial servivice people from London.

Used it as an example but fair point.

 

The ease and right to do so will go. But people have chose to create more hoops to jump through in order to travel and work.

[Space Mackerel]

Indeed the economic case is ruined but the problem is that many Indy voters are Republicans and/or Tory haters so they will vote for Indy no matter what the economics show.

 

But will Nippy get to her 60%? No. Thankfully the non Weeg and Dundee population think more carefully than the Indy nutters.

If Scotland is a basket case economy now, who is to blame?

Who has been in charge for the last 300 years?

 

 

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[coconut doug]

 

"Meanwhile on earth" - this coming from someone called "Space Mackerel"

 

Truly desperate response from you.

 

The SNP are playing a dangerous game assuming that they will get their 45% plus Remain voters.

 

How many of the 45% voted for Brexit and would vote against the SNP trying to deny their wishes?

 

The SNP's financial case for Independence is in tatters after the oil collapse.

I don't suppose you have any evidence to support your view that the financial case for indy "is in tatters as a result of the oil collapse"  The figures I have, show virtually no change in overall economic activity. Part of the reason for that is because so little revenue comes here anyway, most of it goes to private companies. A reduction in fuel prices stimulated other parts of the economy. This is a great opportunity for Scotland as recent figures show that Norway produced around twice the oil of the UK but got more than 150 times more revenue for their country. 

 

It is perhaps not the price of oil or even the abundance of it that is crucial. It is the ownership of it and the taxation regime around it.

[frankblack]

I don't suppose you have any evidence to support your view that the financial case for indy "is in tatters as a result of the oil collapse"  The figures I have, show virtually no change in overall economic activity. Part of the reason for that is because so little revenue comes here anyway, most of it goes to private companies. A reduction in fuel prices stimulated other parts of the economy. This is a great opportunity for Scotland as recent figures show that Norway produced around twice the oil of the UK but got more than 150 times more revenue for their country. 

 

It is perhaps not the price of oil or even the abundance of it that is crucial. It is the ownership of it and the taxation regime around it.

 

It is the SNP's claims at the last referendum that Oil would be the backbone of the economy.  Look at all the lost jobs and downsizing in the Oil and Gas Sector and the affect on the Aberdeen economy to start with in recent times following the collapse.

 

The SNP used Oil as their prime card for economic growth and jobs, so they need to prove their case for Independence now stacks up without it.

[coconut doug]

It is the SNP's claims at the last referendum that Oil would be the backbone of the economy.  Look at all the lost jobs and downsizing in the Oil and Gas Sector and the affect on the Aberdeen economy to start with in recent times following the collapse.

 

The SNP used Oil as their prime card for economic growth and jobs, so they need to prove their case for Independence now stacks up without it.

Sorry but I don't remember it that way. Oil was a bonus said Salmond not the basis, how could it be otherwise? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-23389830

 

Have you got any facts or figures to support your statement "The SNP's financial case for Independence is in tatters after the oil collapse." The figures I have do not support your statement.

 

Sure things have been more difficult in Aberdeen but for Scotland as a whole I haven't seen figures to support your statement.

[Big D]

It is the SNP's claims at the last referendum that Oil would be the backbone of the economy.  Look at all the lost jobs and downsizing in the Oil and Gas Sector and the affect on the Aberdeen economy to start with in recent times following the collapse.

 

The SNP used Oil as their prime card for economic growth and jobs, so they need to prove their case for Independence now stacks up without it.

That is a lie. It was always recognised as a bonus and stated so. Stop lying.

[Trapper John McIntyre]

That is a lie. It was always recognised as a bonus and stated so. Stop lying.

The deluded gotta delude.

[frankblack]

That is a lie. It was always recognised as a bonus and stated so. Stop lying.

 

Cyber Nat Alert. You seem a tad sensitive, dear.

 

I am not going to waste my Sunday on Google for you. My time is more important.

 

I am talking about what the SNP used as the backbone of their policy and sold to the public. You are trying to hunt for obscure quotes to pretend they didn't.

 

Without Oil our economy cannot sustain itself independently as proven by the government figures published shpwing a huge deficit.

 

What are our other major industries that aren't dependent on English business? Financial services?

[deesidejambo]

That is a lie. It was always recognised as a bonus and stated so. Stop lying.

Complete nonsense. The oil revenues were integral in the White Paper. When it turned out that the volumes were grossly overestimated and the price started to drop Eck changed his rhetoric to the "bonus" fallacy.

 

But the numpties will believe anything.

[coconut doug]

Complete nonsense. The oil revenues were integral in the White Paper. When it turned out that the volumes were grossly overestimated and the price started to drop Eck changed his rhetoric to the "bonus" fallacy.

 

But the numpties will believe anything.

As you know the figures for reserves quoted by Salmond were those stated by sir Ian Wood. It was Wood who later changed his mind. In any case there is no evidence to support your view that reserves were grossly overestimated only that now because of a lower price we have fewer economically recoverable reserves. That can change.

 

You would imagine that if the oil revenues were integral to the financial case and the revenues have dropped to about 5% of that projected value then the case for Indy is weakened but the economy has actually grown despite the oil price crash and so the case is strengthened due to there being less reliance on oil and Scotland having a more balanced economy.

 

You might be justified in suggesting that the economic case for indy was poor prior to the referendum and that it is still poor now. What is not justifiable or logical is that the case is worsened because of the drop in the oil price. Unless of course you and the rest of the undeluded can show different.

[Space Mackerel]

The deluded gotta delude.

Any word on that extra ?350 million per week pal?

 

 

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[coconut doug]

 

Cyber Nat Alert. You seem a tad sensitive, dear.

 

I am not going to waste my Sunday on Google for you. My time is more important.

 

I am talking about what the SNP used as the backbone of their policy and sold to the public. You are trying to hunt for obscure quotes to pretend they didn't.

 

Without Oil our economy cannot sustain itself independently as proven by the government figures published shpwing a huge deficit.

 

What are our other major industries that aren't dependent on English business? Financial services?

Actually it was me who asked you to justify your assertion. I assume you are unable to do so. It is disappointing, but not wholly surprising, that you feel it is beneath you to substantiate the things you say. If you don't think it important then why make the statement in the first place?

 

Do you normally hunt for obscure quotes on the BBC? The Herald, Scotsman, P+J, Times, Mirror all carried the same obscure story with the stock exchange  backing Salmond's claim that oil was a bonus.  

[Space Mackerel]

 

Cyber Nat Alert. You seem a tad sensitive, dear.

 

I am not going to waste my Sunday on Google for you. My time is more important.

 

I am talking about what the SNP used as the backbone of their policy and sold to the public. You are trying to hunt for obscure quotes to pretend they didn't.

 

Without Oil our economy cannot sustain itself independently as proven by the government figures published shpwing a huge deficit.

 

What are our other major industries that aren't dependent on English business? Financial services?

You can spot the Daily Mail and Express readers a mile of.

 

 

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