Brexit?

[Space Mackerel]

Weren't the SNP's sums in the white paper based on $113 a barrel?

Call me Dave's too.

 

 

 

 

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[Justin Z]

Also, as to the devolved parliament, there's somewhat of an analogue to the EU in there, just in reverse.  The body with the actual power--Westminster--has given away a tiny slice of its power to another body--Scottish Parliament.  Scottish Parliament doesn't get to invent powers and make any laws it wants just because Westminster has given it this.  It's limited to only what Westminster wants it to have.  Westminster can unilaterally take all of it back at a moment's notice if it wants to.  It's hardly power at all, and it's certainly not sovereignty.

[aussieh]

This is the problem with degrees in Google and Wikipedia--they're not even worth the paper they're not written on.

Fecking brilliant

[jake]

Dude it's not about being a pleb. It is about, when you go looking for information on your own, that instead of just settling on things that seem to confirm your preexisting ideas, you need to challenge them.

 

Even Boris ******* Johnson did this, which is why I didn't understand the row when his pro-remain article he wrote as a mental exercise came out. That was just him being intellectually honest--organising the arguments for EU membership in order to solidify his leave position--shock as that is.

 

There's nothing wrong on that Wikipedia page you posted. The information is all correct. But it also doesn't give you even 1% of the perspective one would need to understand how the EU actually works, what powers it actually has, and what protections member states possess if it goes in a direction they don't like.

 

You've made it clear from your posts that you enjoyed the antiestablishment "get it right up ye" aspect of the leave vote. And it's not one I'm unsympathetic to at all. There's nothing wrong with being euroskeptical because of its coziness to business and moneyed interests. But to take that skepticism and act on it thinking your idea of a Brexit Britain had any chance whatsoever of ever materialising with a Tory government and Labour absolutely nowhere, and turn around and hand it off to hard right Tories and UKIPers? Like they're going to protect the interests of the working class little guy? Sitting there like the Social Democrats, waving through the Enabling Act in the Kroll Opera House?

 

That is beyond mental. My only hope is that to do this stems from misunderstanding, not from crystal clear vision and the deranged perception necessary to actually think that would be a good idea.

 

Listen im not daft i know none of the politicians are thinking of me or the likes of me.

I am aware that the brexit vote was driven by mostly torie internal politics.

But the EU is imo a dangerous organisation.

 

Im posting the next link to show it insidious nature over decades.

 

The ECJ and the primacy of EU Law over national laws

http://www.lawyersforbritain.org/eulaw-ecj-primacy.shtml

[jake]

Also, as to the devolved parliament, there's somewhat of an analogue to the EU in there, just in reverse. The body with the actual power--Westminster--has given away a tiny slice of its power to another body--Scottish Parliament. Scottish Parliament doesn't get to invent powers and make any laws it wants just because Westminster has given it this. It's limited to only what Westminster wants it to have. Westminster can unilaterally take all of it back at a moment's notice if it wants to. It's hardly power at all, and it's certainly not sovereignty.

 

I accept that

Point remains though that we did have a referendum and are able to do that again.

 

Anyway thanks for your posts it has given me food for thought.

[Justin Z]

I accept that

Point remains though that we did have a referendum and are able to do that again.

 

Anyway thanks for your posts it has given me food for thought.

 

[JamboX2]

Listen im not daft i know none of the politicians are thinking of me or the likes of me.

I am aware that the brexit vote was driven by mostly torie internal politics.

But the EU is imo a dangerous organisation.

 

Im posting the next link to show it insidious nature over decades.

 

The ECJ and the primacy of EU Law over national laws

http://www.lawyersforbritain.org/eulaw-ecj-primacy.shtml

Why is that a bad thing though? We consent to these laws being made for all EU members. It then only makes sense for them to be applied uniformally across the EU. Equally a limited number of cases go to the ECJ because UK courts need to adhere to the decisions of the EU courts when initially looking at these cases, and where they are wrong they can then be appealed.

 

Really do not get the issue here at all.

 

If it's primacy then all that means is member states applying the law like for like. That's surely not a bad thing?

[jack D and coke]

You either deflect or miss the point and we are all well aware of the slump in oil prices. The point was the misleading information in "Yes" Campaign literature and which was repeated in Salmond's public utterances.

 

Yes, others have felt the effect but, keeping it local, the impact on the UK is very minor. Contrast that with an independent Scotland with oil as a major source of revenue (don't forget, that's where we would have been now had "Yes" prevailed). Looks like we really are Better Together.

 

Of course the price of oil will rise but that also misses the point which is that it is now shown to be volatile. Being a banana republic where the price of bananas can swing dramatically isn't listed under "Good Things" in economic texts.

But why does Scotlands finances get taken over a one or two year period since Indyref? Oil dropped in price so disaster, world ends etc...Surely if they are based on 10 or 20 you'd get a clearer picture?

 

 

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[Pans Jambo]

But why does Scotlands finances get taken over a one or two year period since Indyref? Oil dropped in price so disaster, world ends etc...Surely if they are based on 10 or 20 you'd get a clearer picture?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Exactly.

Funny how nobody mentions the 40 odd years of mahoosive tax take from the North Sea that has been pissed up against a wall and paid for the M25, Channel tunnel, foreign wars etc. Will they reverse their point of view when we will be paying ?1.30 a litre in a few months??? Short memories.

[The Comedian]

The oil price will rise and fall, as it has since ever. What I think is fair to say is the industry isn't a great example of Westminster stewardship yet it's used to damage Scottish potential. Having no oil fund is nothing short of a national disgrace. 

[Thunderstruck]

Exactly.

Funny how nobody mentions the 40 odd years of mahoosive tax take from the North Sea that has been pissed up against a wall and paid for the M25, Channel tunnel, foreign wars etc. Will they reverse their point of view when we will be paying ?1.30 a litre in a few months??? Short memories.

For how many of those 40 years was Scotland a net beneficiary in terms of tax paid vs public expenditure?

 

The price of fuel at the pumps is affected only marginally by crude prices and I am sure you know that oil is traded in $US.

[jambo lodge]

Also, as to the devolved parliament, there's somewhat of an analogue to the EU in there, just in reverse.  The body with the actual power--Westminster--has given away a tiny slice of its power to another body--Scottish Parliament.  Scottish Parliament doesn't get to invent powers and make any laws it wants just because Westminster has given it this.  It's limited to only what Westminster wants it to have.  Westminster can unilaterally take all of it back at a moment's notice if it wants to.  It's hardly power at all, and it's certainly not sovereignty.

[

Funny , I thought it was the Smith Commission, which all parties including SNP signed up to that recommended to Westminster the powers currently devolved to Scotland. Its one thing having powers devolved its another thing using them , something the SNP government has failed to do so on taxation. /quote]

[Sraman]

 

Also, as to the devolved parliament, there's somewhat of an analogue to the EU in there, just in reverse.  The body with the actual power--Westminster--has given away a tiny slice of its power to another body--Scottish Parliament.  Scottish Parliament doesn't get to invent powers and make any laws it wants just because Westminster has given it this.  It's limited to only what Westminster wants it to have.  Westminster can unilaterally take all of it back at a moment's notice if it wants to.  It's hardly power at all, and it's certainly not sovereignty.

[

Funny , I thought it was the Smith Commission, which all parties including SNP signed up to that recommended to Westminster the powers currently devolved to Scotland. Its one thing having powers devolved its another thing using them , something the SNP government has failed to do so on taxation. /quote]

 

 

The tax powers that the Scottish Government have are nothing more than a noose waiting to be put around the neck of whichever party uses them. A Give Em Enough Rope scenario.

[Space Mackerel]

For how many of those 40 years was Scotland a net beneficiary in terms of tax paid vs public expenditure?

 

The price of fuel at the pumps is affected only marginally by crude prices and I am sure you know that oil is traded in $US.

Ken [emoji849]

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/edmundconway/6505670/North-Sea-oil-is-dragging-us-into-the-red.html

 

 

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[Justin Z]

Funny , I thought it was the Smith Commission, which all parties including SNP signed up to that recommended to Westminster the powers currently devolved to Scotland. Its one thing having powers devolved its another thing using them , something the SNP government has failed to do so on taxation. /quote]

 

 

Yes, the Smith Commission was basically a bunch of guys who got together and recommended what else should be devolved to Scotland following the "no" vote--in addition to what had already been devolved previously starting with the Scotland Act 1998 and continued by the Scotland Act 2012.  However, it was the Scotland Act 2016, passed in Parliament at Westminster, which put the Smith Commission recommendations into effect.

 

The point of what I said is that it would take but one more bill to pass and become an Act in order to reverse it, and all the rest of the devolved powers, should that be Parliament's desire.

[Space Mackerel]

Yes, the Smith Commission was basically a bunch of guys who got together and recommended what else should be devolved to Scotland following the "no" vote--in addition to what had already been devolved previously starting with the Scotland Act 1998 and continued by the Scotland Act 2012. However, it was the Scotland Act 2016, passed in Parliament at Westminster, which put the Smith Commission recommendations into effect.

 

The point of what I said is that it would take but one more bill to pass and become an Act in order to reverse it, and all the rest of the devolved powers, should that be Parliament's desire.

 

 

 

 

 

Wee ginger dugs latest article tonight touches on some of your points

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Scotland has the most powerful devolved parliament in the world, is the proud boast of the Unionist parties as they try to persuade Scotland that they fulfilled their promises to give the Scottish parliament meaningful extra powers. And it's true that with a couple of minor caveats and quibbles, Scotland is indeed the proud owner of the most powerful devolved parliament in the world.

 

Of course one of the quibbles is in the word devolved. There are self-governing territories quite close to home which have considerably more powerful parliaments than Scotland does. The British crown dependencies of the Isle of Man, Jersey, and Guernsey are independent in most respects. In fact they have what many in Scotland defined as devo max, control over everything except foreign affairs and defence. The British crown territories of Bermuda, Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands, St Helena, Montserrat, the British Virgin Islands, the Turks and Caicos, and the Cayman Islands, enjoy similar control over their own affairs. They control their own taxation policies, some of them have control over their own immigration policies. For the most part they are independent in all important respects, with the main exceptions of foreign affairs and defence.

 

The self-governing kingdoms of the Danish and Dutch crowns likewise enjoy a similar degree of autonomy. The Dutch kingdoms of Aruba, Curacao and Bonaire, and Sint Maartin are self-governing islands in the Caribbean. They have close ties to the Netherlands which retains responsibility for defence and most foreign affairs, although the islands can and do represent themselves at an international level on occasion. The same is true for the Danish crown possessions of Greenland and the Faroe Islands. They are independent in almost all respects. Greenland was even able to leave the EEC.

 

But apart from the Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, Bermuda, Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands, St Helena, Montserrat, the British Virgin Islands, the Turks and Caicos, the Cayman Islands, Aruba, Curacao and Bonaire, Sint Maartin, Greenland, and the Faroe Islands, Scotland has the most powerful devolved parliament in the world. So that's OK then.

 

There are a few other countries which aren't independent but which still enjoy considerably more autonomy than Scotland does. Puerto Rico is a country in free association with the United States. It has the right to self-determination, and has had several referendums on independence, none of which required the permission of Washington. Most recently it voted to become the 51st state of the Union. Guam, American Samoa, and the US Virgin Islands are other self-governing territories of the United States. Like Puerto Rico they have considerable control over their own financial affairs. French Polynesia and New Caledonia are French possessions in the South Pacific, they likewise have autonomy. New Caledonia is due to hold a referendum on independence.

 

But apart from the Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, Bermuda, Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands, St Helena, Montserrat, the British Virgin Islands, the Turks and Caicos, the Cayman Islands, Aruba, Curacao and Bonaire, Sint Maartin, Greenland, and the Faroe Islands, Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, the US Virgin Islands, French Polynesia and New Caledonia, Scotland has the most powerful devolved parliament in the world. So that's OK then.

 

Well ... being devolved means that at any time Scotland's autonomy can be revoked or altered by the Westminster parliament. There is no constitutional guarantee of the permanency of Holyrood, despite the fact that the Unionist parties promised to ensure that would be the case. After winning the first independence referendum, they went back on their word. So since there is no constitutional guarantee of the status of Scotland, that means that every single federal territory in the world has more power than the Scottish parliament. The constitutional status of a constituent member of a federal state cannot be altered except by a change to the constitution, a single government can't do that unless extra steps are taken, most commonly involving a referendum.

 

Each of the US states, the Canadian provinces, the German L?nder, the Swiss Cantons, the states of Mexico, and the states of Australia have considerably more power than Scotland's parliament does. Quebec controls its own immigration policy. The US states as well as the Canadian provinces and the Mexican states control vehicle registration. All have powers over taxation, including sales taxes. They have control over the natural resources exploited within their own territory. The US state of Alaska has an oil fund which it periodically disburses to state residents as a financial windfall. The constituent states of the Federated States of Micronesia, Palau, the Marianas, Yap, and the Caroline Islands even have the power to respent themselves independently on an international level. Tiny wee islands in the Pacific, but they're more powerful than Scotland is.

 

So apart from the Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, Bermuda, Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands, St Helena, Montserrat, the British Virgin Islands, the Turks and Caicos, the Cayman Islands, Aruba, Curacao and Bonaire, Sint Maartin, Greenland, and the Faroe Islands, Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, the US Virgin Islands, French Polynesia and New Caledonia, Ontario, Quebec, British Columbia, Newfoundland, and the rest of the Canadian provinces, Alaska, Rhode Island, Hawaii, and the rest of the states of the USA, Yucatan, Sonora, Leon, and the other states of Mexico, Berne, Grisons, Aargau, Schwyz, and the other cantons of Switzerland, Bavaria, Baden-Wurtemberg, Schleswig-Holstein and the other L?nder of Germany, Victoria, New South Wales, Queensland, South Australia, Western Australia, and Tasmania, Palau, the Marianas, Yap, and the Caroline Islands, Scotland has the most powerful devolved parliament in the world. So that's OK then.

 

But ... there are some other countries, territories, and regions which have a measure of self-government and like Scotland are not constituent parts of federal states. Gagauzia is a self governing territory of Turkish speaking Orthodox Christians which is a constituent part of Moldova, which isn't a federal state, but Gagauz autonomy is written into the Moldovan constitution and can't be altered by a Moldovan government without the consent of the Gagauz parliament. Which is more than can be said for Scotland.

 

Then there are countries and territories which like Scotland are actually devolved. Nunavut was carved out of the North West Territories as an autonomous territory for Canada's Inuit people. The new territory was named Nunavut, which in Inuktitut, the Inuit language, means "Has more devolution than Scotland". As with the other territories of Canada, Yukon and the remaining part of the North West Territories, the Federal government is ensuring that Nunavut has control of its own mineral and oil and gas resources. Washington DC and the Federal Distict of Mexico City are not federal states in their respective countries, but each enjoys most of the powers enjoyed by states. The Northern Territory of Australia likewise enjoys many of the same powers that the fully fledged Australian states possess although it enjoys these powers as devolved powers from the Federal government which retains the right to legislate on its behalf.

 

Catalonia, Galicia, the Basque Country and the Canary Islands are autonomous communities in Spain. Each has control over its own broadcasting, something not allowed to Scotland. The Basque Country raises all taxes within its territory and is responsible for remitting part of the receipts to Madrid to cover its share of the costs of the Spanish state. Far more control than Scotland has.

 

Madeira and the Azores are autonomous parts of Portugal. They have control over immigration and residency policy, control over their marine economic zones, and control over oil and mineral rights as well as fishing.

 

So apart from the Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, Bermuda, Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands, St Helena, Montserrat, the British Virgin Islands, the Turks and Caicos, the Cayman Islands, Aruba, Curacao and Bonaire, Sint Maartin, Greenland, the Faroe Islands, Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, the US Virgin Islands, French Polynesia and New Caledonia, Ontario, Quebec, British Columbia, Newfoundland, and the rest of the Canadian provinces, Alaska, Rhode Island, Hawaii, and the rest of the states of the USA, Yucatan, Sonora, Leon, and the other states of Mexico, Berne, Grisons, Aargau, Schwyz, and the other cantons of Switzerland, Bavaria, Baden-Wurtemberg, Schleswig-Holstein and the other L?nder of Germany, Victoria, New South Wales, Queensland, South Australia, Western Australia, and Tasmania, Palau, the Marianas, Yap, and the Caroline Islands, Gagauzia, Catalonia, the Basque Country, Galicia, the Canary Islands, the Azores, Madeira, Washington DC, the Districto Federal de Mexico, Yukon, Nunavut, the North West Territories, and the Northern Territory of Australia, Scotland has the most powerful devolved parliament in the world.

 

 

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[Justin Z]

That certainly lays it out a lot more starkly than I have.

[Pans Jambo]

For how many of those 40 years was Scotland a net beneficiary in terms of tax paid vs public expenditure?

 

The price of fuel at the pumps is affected only marginally by crude prices and I am sure you know that oil is traded in $US.

Aye we are just spongers. Begging for our oil money back so we can pay for the great unwashed to drink buckie all day.

You completely missed my point which was the Westminster support were quick to point and say 'look, the oil price has dropped that far its a good job we are still in the UK' but they will remain silent when it goes back up (which it was always going to do in any case).

More faces than big ben.

[Thunderstruck]

Ken [emoji849]

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/edmundconway/6505670/North-Sea-oil-is-dragging-us-into-the-red.html

 

 

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http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2015/03/yes-scotland-does-receive-an-unfair-share-of-public-spending-probably/

[AlimOzturk]

.

[frankblack]

Wee ginger dugs latest article tonight touches on some of your points

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Scotland has the most powerful devolved parliament in the world, is the proud boast of the Unionist parties as they try to persuade Scotland that they fulfilled their promises to give the Scottish parliament meaningful extra powers. And it's true that with a couple of minor caveats and quibbles, Scotland is indeed the proud owner of the most powerful devolved parliament in the world.

 

Of course one of the quibbles is in the word devolved. There are self-governing territories quite close to home which have considerably more powerful parliaments than Scotland does. The British crown dependencies of the Isle of Man, Jersey, and Guernsey are independent in most respects. In fact they have what many in Scotland defined as devo max, control over everything except foreign affairs and defence. The British crown territories of Bermuda, Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands, St Helena, Montserrat, the British Virgin Islands, the Turks and Caicos, and the Cayman Islands, enjoy similar control over their own affairs. They control their own taxation policies, some of them have control over their own immigration policies. For the most part they are independent in all important respects, with the main exceptions of foreign affairs and defence.

 

The self-governing kingdoms of the Danish and Dutch crowns likewise enjoy a similar degree of autonomy. The Dutch kingdoms of Aruba, Curacao and Bonaire, and Sint Maartin are self-governing islands in the Caribbean. They have close ties to the Netherlands which retains responsibility for defence and most foreign affairs, although the islands can and do represent themselves at an international level on occasion. The same is true for the Danish crown possessions of Greenland and the Faroe Islands. They are independent in almost all respects. Greenland was even able to leave the EEC.

 

But apart from the Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, Bermuda, Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands, St Helena, Montserrat, the British Virgin Islands, the Turks and Caicos, the Cayman Islands, Aruba, Curacao and Bonaire, Sint Maartin, Greenland, and the Faroe Islands, Scotland has the most powerful devolved parliament in the world. So that's OK then.

 

There are a few other countries which aren't independent but which still enjoy considerably more autonomy than Scotland does. Puerto Rico is a country in free association with the United States. It has the right to self-determination, and has had several referendums on independence, none of which required the permission of Washington. Most recently it voted to become the 51st state of the Union. Guam, American Samoa, and the US Virgin Islands are other self-governing territories of the United States. Like Puerto Rico they have considerable control over their own financial affairs. French Polynesia and New Caledonia are French possessions in the South Pacific, they likewise have autonomy. New Caledonia is due to hold a referendum on independence.

 

But apart from the Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, Bermuda, Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands, St Helena, Montserrat, the British Virgin Islands, the Turks and Caicos, the Cayman Islands, Aruba, Curacao and Bonaire, Sint Maartin, Greenland, and the Faroe Islands, Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, the US Virgin Islands, French Polynesia and New Caledonia, Scotland has the most powerful devolved parliament in the world. So that's OK then.

 

Well ... being devolved means that at any time Scotland's autonomy can be revoked or altered by the Westminster parliament. There is no constitutional guarantee of the permanency of Holyrood, despite the fact that the Unionist parties promised to ensure that would be the case. After winning the first independence referendum, they went back on their word. So since there is no constitutional guarantee of the status of Scotland, that means that every single federal territory in the world has more power than the Scottish parliament. The constitutional status of a constituent member of a federal state cannot be altered except by a change to the constitution, a single government can't do that unless extra steps are taken, most commonly involving a referendum.

 

Each of the US states, the Canadian provinces, the German L?nder, the Swiss Cantons, the states of Mexico, and the states of Australia have considerably more power than Scotland's parliament does. Quebec controls its own immigration policy. The US states as well as the Canadian provinces and the Mexican states control vehicle registration. All have powers over taxation, including sales taxes. They have control over the natural resources exploited within their own territory. The US state of Alaska has an oil fund which it periodically disburses to state residents as a financial windfall. The constituent states of the Federated States of Micronesia, Palau, the Marianas, Yap, and the Caroline Islands even have the power to respent themselves independently on an international level. Tiny wee islands in the Pacific, but they're more powerful than Scotland is.

 

So apart from the Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, Bermuda, Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands, St Helena, Montserrat, the British Virgin Islands, the Turks and Caicos, the Cayman Islands, Aruba, Curacao and Bonaire, Sint Maartin, Greenland, and the Faroe Islands, Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, the US Virgin Islands, French Polynesia and New Caledonia, Ontario, Quebec, British Columbia, Newfoundland, and the rest of the Canadian provinces, Alaska, Rhode Island, Hawaii, and the rest of the states of the USA, Yucatan, Sonora, Leon, and the other states of Mexico, Berne, Grisons, Aargau, Schwyz, and the other cantons of Switzerland, Bavaria, Baden-Wurtemberg, Schleswig-Holstein and the other L?nder of Germany, Victoria, New South Wales, Queensland, South Australia, Western Australia, and Tasmania, Palau, the Marianas, Yap, and the Caroline Islands, Scotland has the most powerful devolved parliament in the world. So that's OK then.

 

But ... there are some other countries, territories, and regions which have a measure of self-government and like Scotland are not constituent parts of federal states. Gagauzia is a self governing territory of Turkish speaking Orthodox Christians which is a constituent part of Moldova, which isn't a federal state, but Gagauz autonomy is written into the Moldovan constitution and can't be altered by a Moldovan government without the consent of the Gagauz parliament. Which is more than can be said for Scotland.

 

Then there are countries and territories which like Scotland are actually devolved. Nunavut was carved out of the North West Territories as an autonomous territory for Canada's Inuit people. The new territory was named Nunavut, which in Inuktitut, the Inuit language, means "Has more devolution than Scotland". As with the other territories of Canada, Yukon and the remaining part of the North West Territories, the Federal government is ensuring that Nunavut has control of its own mineral and oil and gas resources. Washington DC and the Federal Distict of Mexico City are not federal states in their respective countries, but each enjoys most of the powers enjoyed by states. The Northern Territory of Australia likewise enjoys many of the same powers that the fully fledged Australian states possess although it enjoys these powers as devolved powers from the Federal government which retains the right to legislate on its behalf.

 

Catalonia, Galicia, the Basque Country and the Canary Islands are autonomous communities in Spain. Each has control over its own broadcasting, something not allowed to Scotland. The Basque Country raises all taxes within its territory and is responsible for remitting part of the receipts to Madrid to cover its share of the costs of the Spanish state. Far more control than Scotland has.

 

Madeira and the Azores are autonomous parts of Portugal. They have control over immigration and residency policy, control over their marine economic zones, and control over oil and mineral rights as well as fishing.

 

So apart from the Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, Bermuda, Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands, St Helena, Montserrat, the British Virgin Islands, the Turks and Caicos, the Cayman Islands, Aruba, Curacao and Bonaire, Sint Maartin, Greenland, the Faroe Islands, Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, the US Virgin Islands, French Polynesia and New Caledonia, Ontario, Quebec, British Columbia, Newfoundland, and the rest of the Canadian provinces, Alaska, Rhode Island, Hawaii, and the rest of the states of the USA, Yucatan, Sonora, Leon, and the other states of Mexico, Berne, Grisons, Aargau, Schwyz, and the other cantons of Switzerland, Bavaria, Baden-Wurtemberg, Schleswig-Holstein and the other L?nder of Germany, Victoria, New South Wales, Queensland, South Australia, Western Australia, and Tasmania, Palau, the Marianas, Yap, and the Caroline Islands, Gagauzia, Catalonia, the Basque Country, Galicia, the Canary Islands, the Azores, Madeira, Washington DC, the Districto Federal de Mexico, Yukon, Nunavut, the North West Territories, and the Northern Territory of Australia, Scotland has the most powerful devolved parliament in the world.

 

 

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You are not allowed to copy and paste copyrighted content verbatim (and yes, newspaper articles are copyright of their publishers).

 

Try linking to the article and properly attributing your source next time.

[jambo lodge]

I actually think that Scotland would be pushing at an open door if the Holyrood Parliament really wants new powers and makes a proper case for them. The constant whinging however just gets up the noses of the Government and many No voters like myself who would love to see devo max or a Federal system in place. The time for the SNP to get more power devolved from Westminster is right now. They will never get anything however by constantly whinging and threatening when its clear that Europe will not entertain a special deal for Scotland.

[Thunderstruck]

Aye we are just spongers. Begging for our oil money back so we can pay for the great unwashed to drink buckie all day.

You completely missed my point which was the Westminster support were quick to point and say 'look, the oil price has dropped that far its a good job we are still in the UK' but they will remain silent when it goes back up (which it was always going to do in any case).

More faces than big ben.

Scotland's spending - by the reckoning of its own economists - is exceeding revenue by ?3,000 each year for every man, woman and child in the country.

 

If it was just the oil price that led to a (If I might borrow the style of the former Grand Panjandrum) fifteen thousand million pound Scottish deficit, you might have a semblance of a point. It isn't and you don't. With the exception of 2011, revenues from oil and gas (tax and royalties) have been meagre with Westminster funded tax breaks being required to keep the pot boiling.

 

Thankfully, we do not face ?15bn worth of cuts or tax hikes and I am quite sure you know why. .

[Pans Jambo]

Scotland's spending - by the reckoning of its own economists - is exceeding revenue by ?3,000 each year for every man, woman and child in the country.

 

If it was just the oil price that led to a (If I might borrow the style of the former Grand Panjandrum) fifteen thousand million pound Scottish deficit, you might have a semblance of a point. It isn't and you don't. With the exception of 2011, revenues from oil and gas (tax and royalties) have been meagre with Westminster funded tax breaks being required to keep the pot boiling.

 

Thankfully, we do not face ?15bn worth of cuts or tax hikes and I am quite sure you know why. .

?3000? Last I heard it was an unproven estimate of around ?800. ?15billion a tad better than ?1.5Trillion & would Scotland be the only country in the planet not allowed to approach the money markets to borrow like everyone else had the vote been Yes?

Too wee, too poor, too stupid.

[coconut doug]

Salmond wasn't trying to suggest anything. He made his points clearly. You've just called him a liar. What did he lie about?

 

 

See link in my post.

I asked you to tell me what you think Salmond lied about and you referred me to a blog. That's a bit cultish, is it not?

 

What about your own thoughts?

[Thunderstruck]

?3000? Last I heard it was an unproven estimate of around ?800. ?15billion a tad better than ?1.5Trillion & would Scotland be the only country in the planet not allowed to approach the money markets to borrow like everyone else had the vote been Yes?

Too wee, too poor, too stupid.

I blame modern education.

 

It doesn't take much of a proof if the deficit is an admitted ?15bn, the population 5m (both in round terms) and you have the wherewithal to divide one by the other.

 

Can you explain how you divide 15,000,000,000 by 5,000,000 and get 800. Always happy to learn new tricks.

[Hasselhoff]

I asked you to tell me what you think Salmond lied about and you referred me to a blog. That's a bit cultish, is it not?

 

What about your own thoughts?

As I suspected, you have nothing. Always the person who asks for evidence no matter what the statement. Provided with some, you now want "my thoughts". If I had given you a link to the BBC, you would have dismissed that as biased.

 

Ok, time for a bit of your own medicine - you provide evidence why the blog is wrong and why Salmond is correct. Tell me all the things that Scotland pays for which we wouldn't need to pay for in Indy Scotland and give an annual value for each. You can refer to a blog if you like if you don't personally have these figures to hand or have time to research.

[Space Mackerel]

You are not allowed to copy and paste copyrighted content verbatim (and yes, newspaper articles are copyright of their publishers).

 

Try linking to the article and properly attributing your source next time.

I copy it from the email I get and credit it always to the author.

 

Next?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Space Mackerel]

I blame modern education.

 

It doesn't take much of a proof if the deficit is an admitted ?15bn, the population 5m (both in round terms) and you have the wherewithal to divide one by the other.

 

Can you explain how you divide 15,000,000,000 by 5,000,000 and get 800. Always happy to learn new tricks.

I think everyone knows the ?15 billion is a pack of nonsense so you just look foolish using these figure.

 

Anyway, have a wee look see FT saying Scotlands economy could be worth more than ?100 billion after Indy.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/fff67a62-88fa-11e3-bb5f-00144feab7de

 

 

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[Hasselhoff]

As I suspected, you have nothing. Always the person who asks for evidence no matter what the statement. Provided with some, you now want "my thoughts". If I had given you a link to the BBC, you would have dismissed that as biased.

 

Ok, time for a bit of your own medicine - you provide evidence why the blog is wrong and why Salmond is correct. Tell me all the things that Scotland pays for which we wouldn't need to pay for in Indy Scotland and give an annual value for each. You can refer to a blog if you like if you don't personally have these figures to hand or have time to research.

More evidence from another blog.

 

https://whytepaper.wordpress.com/2016/10/17/meme-busting-deficit-drivel/

 

This time, another SNP MP retweeting absolute drivel to the brainwashed masses.

 

Feel free to prove this one wrong too. Not just his opinion, all backed up with references.

 

As I said earlier, if Indy is such a great idea, why do they have to lie to achieve it?

[Thunderstruck]

I think everyone knows the ?15 billion is a pack of nonsense so you just look foolish using these figure.

 

Anyway, have a wee look see FT saying Scotlands economy could be worth more than ?100 billion after Indy.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/fff67a62-88fa-11e3-bb5f-00144feab7de

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

?15bn is Scottish Government data but if "head in the sand" works for you, fill your boots.

[frankblack]

I copy it from the email I get and credit it always to the author.

 

Next?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

You copy and paste crap all over this thread and the Indepence thread.  Its crap posting style and long-winded bullshit propoganda.

 

I thought I gave a subtle hint a few pages back with a TL;DR?

 

Are you not capable of summarising an article and linking to relevant bits?  Who actually wants to read a 2000 word essay in a forum post?

[Space Mackerel]

You copy and paste crap all over this thread and the Indepence thread. Its crap posting style and long-winded bullshit propoganda.

 

I thought I gave a subtle hint a few pages back with a TL;DR?

 

Are you not capable of summarising an article and linking to relevant bits? Who actually wants to read a 2000 word essay in a forum post?

Don't read it then, skim past. Simples.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Space Mackerel]

?15bn is Scottish Government data but if "head in the sand" works for you, fill your boots.

And who has been in charge of macro economic policy?

 

You're digging a hole for yourself her pal. Carry on.

 

 

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[North Berwick Jambo]

As someone who decided to leave Scotland after the "No" referendum vote & after finally managing to escape this March I have watched with interest all the events concerning the "Brexit" vote & the consequences of it all from the comfort of my apartment here in Spain. I was shocked & stunned at the result as were almost everyone of my friends here but it did not take long for me to realise it proved I took the right decision to leave when I did. My wages here compared to back in the U.K. are now worth way more than I could ever have hope for. As a tourist here just a few years ago you could get well over 1.40 in the exchange now it's below 1.10 in places & it is still dropping. I do an average job here for eight hours a day five days a weeks & now get the equivalent of over ?13 per hour. The percentage of tax, NI etc I pay is much less, my doctor, dentist etc here are all much cheaper, much more modern & much easier to attend than anything I was used to. Rent, petrol, electricity, insurance etc & even basic food shopping (?5 for a litre of spirits, ?4 for 20 cigs & even 12 cans of lager in Mercadona for ?2.80) is also much less.

Almost all of my non Uk friends do actually understand that there is a difference in attitude shown towards towards the European Union, immigration, religious beliefs etc from the majority of English people compared to Scotland, Ireland & Wales although they also admit that they dont understand why the English seem to have become a much more aggressive racist society so rapidly.

[Justin Z]

Right, so the Tories wish to pay billions of pounds to the EU to keep City of London's access to the European single market intact after the rest of the U.K. brexits.  They also wish to give "privileged EU access" on a pick-and-choose basis.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/a8ec5e90-938c-11e6-a1dc-bdf38d484582

 

Not Scotland though.  Sorry Scotland, we're deciding for you.

 

As an outsider and a Yank this is what baffles me the most about people who voted against and continue to remain against independence.  Even if you were pro-Brexit--because it's about Westminster not even giving you a second thought.  Like, I know Washington doesn't give a shit about me and I know there's nothing I can do about it.  It's part of the reason I left my god damn country.  Arguably Westminster and the Conservative Party are even more brazen about not giving a shit about the people of Scotland, and yet 55% of you voted to keep hanging out with them and you're polling close enough again now that it seems not to have changed much.

 

At some point this pure, blatant derision ought to just trigger you lot and you say "right, we don't care if we're too wee, too poor and too stupid.  F*** you England, we'd rather be first class citizens in our own country than second class ones in yours."  I would think.  Or I guess I just don't "get" the ethos or psychology of the body politic here.

 

Edit: And another thing.  You punished Labour to the point it will likely never recover up here, merely for taking you for granted.  Is it a Stockholm Syndrome thing with the current and recent blue Governments?  Had the Blairites and New Labour just laid waste to you, would they be the ones running Holyrood?

[DarthVodka]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/10/18/brexit-is-simulated-in-football-manager-2017-and-its-going-to-ma/

 

Brexit simulated in the New Football manager according to the telegraph

 

Interestingly, the screen shot on the article says Scotland have decided to leave the UK and stay in EU 

[Space Mackerel]

Right, so the Tories wish to pay billions of pounds to the EU to keep City of London's access to the European single market intact after the rest of the U.K. brexits. They also wish to give "privileged EU access" on a pick-and-choose basis.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/a8ec5e90-938c-11e6-a1dc-bdf38d484582

 

Not Scotland though. Sorry Scotland, we're deciding for you.

 

As an outsider and a Yank this is what baffles me the most about people who voted against and continue to remain against independence. Even if you were pro-Brexit--because it's about Westminster not even giving you a second thought. Like, I know Washington doesn't give a shit about me and I know there's nothing I can do about it. It's part of the reason I left my god damn country. Arguably Westminster and the Conservative Party are even more brazen about not giving a shit about the people of Scotland, and yet 55% of you voted to keep hanging out with them and you're polling close enough again now that it seems not to have changed much.

 

At some point this pure, blatant derision ought to just trigger you lot and you say "right, we don't care if we're too wee, too poor and too stupid. F*** you England, we'd rather be first class citizens in our own country than second class ones in yours." I would think. Or I guess I just don't "get" the ethos or psychology of the body politic here.

 

Edit: And another thing. You punished Labour to the point it will likely never recover up here, merely for taking you for granted. Is it a Stockholm Syndrome thing with the current and recent blue Governments? Had the Blairites and New Labour just laid waste to you, would they be the ones running Holyrood?

You're not actually dealing with political and economic thought with a lot of the No voters on here, you're actually arguing against their own self identity.

 

And also this, there's a fair few on here who see themselves as "cousins" to the team formerly known as Glasgow Rangers. Sad but true in this day and age.

 

 

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[Old Hearts]

You're not actually dealing with political and economic thought with a lot of the No voters on here, you're actually arguing against their own self identity.

 

And also this, there's a fair few on here who see themselves as "cousins" to the team formerly known as Glasgow Rangers. Sad but true in this day and age.

 

 

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The above post confirms what I have thought about you all along....that you are a brain-washed halfwit.

[Space Mackerel]

The above post confirms what I have thought about you all along....that you are a brain-washed halfwit.

That's just my general thoughts. I used tae sing thum songs too back in the 80's ye ken but I grew up FYI.

 

 

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[kingantti1874]

You're not actually dealing with political and economic thought with a lot of the No voters on here, you're actually arguing against their own self identity.

 

And also this, there's a fair few on here who see themselves as "cousins" to the team formerly known as Glasgow Rangers. Sad but true in this day and age.

 

 

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You see this is where you don't get it, no voters tend to be perfectly content with our Scottish and British identities - it is the Yes voters who have an identity crisis, a persecution complex, stumbling through life blaming the Tories or the English for their own failed miserable existence.

 

I genuinely would love another independence referendum next week, it would be smashed into oblivion when Scotland many failures are educated to a level where it would become obvious that their own failed lives would become immeasurably worse following crippling tax rises and spending cuts.. turkeys do not vote for Christmas..

[By The Light..]

 

As an outsider and a Yank this is what baffles me the most about people who voted against and continue to remain against independence.  Even if you were pro-Brexit--because it's about Westminster not even giving you a second thought.  Like, I know Washington doesn't give a shit about me and I know there's nothing I can do about it.  It's part of the reason I left my god damn country.  Arguably Westminster and the Conservative Party are even more brazen about not giving a shit about the people of Scotland, and yet 55% of you voted to keep hanging out with them and you're polling close enough again now that it seems not to have changed much.

 

At some point this pure, blatant derision ought to just trigger you lot and you say "right, we don't care if we're too wee, too poor and too stupid.  F*** you England, we'd rather be first class citizens in our own country than second class ones in yours."  I would think.  Or I guess I just don't "get" the ethos or psychology of the body politic here.

 

 

Ive edited your post down a wee bit. Lots of anger there, you left your country to escape some politics you didnt agree with and are now getting into the same position. I support the underdog in plenty situations but not independence. I am 100% Scottish and proud of it. I am also 100% British and proud of that too. Having lived in England for 5 years I returned to Scotland not hating the English like i was brought up to. Alex Salmond has always been about independence. Economic disparity breeds nationalism. Personally i think Scotland has never had it so good!

 

Ps if its Scotlands oil lets invade Norway

[JamboX2]

Right, so the Tories wish to pay billions of pounds to the EU to keep City of London's access to the European single market intact after the rest of the U.K. brexits. They also wish to give "privileged EU access" on a pick-and-choose basis.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/a8ec5e90-938c-11e6-a1dc-bdf38d484582

 

Not Scotland though. Sorry Scotland, we're deciding for you.

 

As an outsider and a Yank this is what baffles me the most about people who voted against and continue to remain against independence. Even if you were pro-Brexit--because it's about Westminster not even giving you a second thought. Like, I know Washington doesn't give a shit about me and I know there's nothing I can do about it. It's part of the reason I left my god damn country. Arguably Westminster and the Conservative Party are even more brazen about not giving a shit about the people of Scotland, and yet 55% of you voted to keep hanging out with them and you're polling close enough again now that it seems not to have changed much.

 

At some point this pure, blatant derision ought to just trigger you lot and you say "right, we don't care if we're too wee, too poor and too stupid. F*** you England, we'd rather be first class citizens in our own country than second class ones in yours." I would think. Or I guess I just don't "get" the ethos or psychology of the body politic here.

 

Edit: And another thing. You punished Labour to the point it will likely never recover up here, merely for taking you for granted. Is it a Stockholm Syndrome thing with the current and recent blue Governments? Had the Blairites and New Labour just laid waste to you, would they be the ones running Holyrood?

By City of London they mean the financial sector. Not the actual City. In effect they'll pay for British, including Scottish, financial institutions to have the free services rights they've had in the EU. Rather than letting London stay in the Single Market.

[Justin Z]

By City of London they mean the financial sector. Not the actual City. In effect they'll pay for British, including Scottish, financial institutions to have the free services rights they've had in the EU. Rather than letting London stay in the Single Market.

 

Yes, that's why I said "City of London" and not "London".  It couldn't be a more elitist and "members-only" attempt at a political favour.

[Justin Z]

Ive edited your post down a wee bit. Lots of anger there, you left your country to escape some politics you didnt agree with and are now getting into the same position. I support the underdog in plenty situations but not independence. I am 100% Scottish and proud of it. I am also 100% British and proud of that too. Having lived in England for 5 years I returned to Scotland not hating the English like i was brought up to. Alex Salmond has always been about independence. Economic disparity breeds nationalism. Personally i think Scotland has never had it so good!

 

Ps if its Scotlands oil lets invade Norway

 

I feel a non-sequitur here.  Nothing in my post was intended to be English-hating.  Genetically I am partly English while my middle and surnames and much of my bloodline are Scottish so I've got a pretty close American analogue to your experience; I have also spent time in England and enjoyed it and the people I met.  But this has nothing to do with how plainly obvious it is that many of the politicians of England don't care a whit about the Scottish--and this is reflected in their platforms--without that meaning also hating the people as a whole.

 

Wanting to be independent from something--to run your affairs for yourself--does not mean you hate that something.  Hell, that would make Yanks the original haters, and clearly we do not hate England/the United Kingdom.  In fact, what many of us were in the 18th century was tired of Parliament acting against us but still quite loyal to the Crown.

[Justin Z]

You're not actually dealing with political and economic thought with a lot of the No voters on here, you're actually arguing against their own self identity.

 

And also this, there's a fair few on here who see themselves as "cousins" to the team formerly known as Glasgow Rangers. Sad but true in this day and age.

 

You've received backlash to your statement.  All I can say, and in following on from my other post, I again don't see why anyone's identity has to go anywhere.  That long blog post you quoted with the scores of nations that have more control over their own affairs than Scotland does--Bermuda was in that list.  I have been to Bermuda and Bermudans are quite British in their attitudes and their traditions.  And yet they're more or less de facto independent.  Another example--Canadians I know were absolutely gutted when the Queen Mum died.  They still have strong ties to the U.K. in spite of being independent for 150 years and separated by an ocean.

 

I do think you--and maybe even Yes at large--make a political mistake in trying to tell people they don't identify themselves properly.  Far as I can tell, an independent Scotland should not necessarily mean the same thing to every single person.

[Auld Reekin']

You've received backlash to your statement.  All I can say, and in following on from my other post, I again don't see why anyone's identity has to go anywhere.  That long blog post you quoted with the scores of nations that have more control over their own affairs than Scotland does--Bermuda was in that list.  I have been to Bermuda and Bermudans are quite British in their attitudes and their traditions.  And yet they're more or less de facto independent.  Another example--Canadians I know were absolutely gutted when the Queen Mum died.  They still have strong ties to the U.K. in spite of being independent for 150 years and separated by an ocean.

 

I do think you--and maybe even Yes at large--make a political mistake in trying to tell people they don't identify themselves properly.  Far as I can tell, an independent Scotland should not necessarily mean the same thing to every single person.

 

You talk far too much sense for here, Justin, and are not nearly angry, bitter, twisted, spiteful, vindictive, and misanthropic enough. No doubt such vital personality and character traits will emerge, slowly but surely, the longer you spend here (Scotland & JKB).

[Justin Z]

You talk far too much sense for here, Justin, and are not nearly angry, bitter, twisted, spiteful, vindictive, and misanthropic enough. No doubt such vital personality and character traits will emerge, slowly but surely, the longer you spend here (Scotland & JKB).

 

That's all well and good, but not misanthropic enough?!  I take great offence to that!

 

Cheers though, seriously, although I have found the people of Scotland generally and overall to be none of the things you've described.

[JamboX2]

Yes, that's why I said "City of London" and not "London". It couldn't be a more elitist and "members-only" attempt at a political favour.

Not really. Thousands of ordinary paid, low level jobs rely on the financial sector both directly and in the wider supply sectors of the economy. This isn't about bonuses and fat cats, it'd be about paying the cost necessary to protect jobs in London, Edinburgh and cities like Manchester and Birmingham with financial districts.

[JamboX2]

You've received backlash to your statement. All I can say, and in following on from my other post, I again don't see why anyone's identity has to go anywhere. That long blog post you quoted with the scores of nations that have more control over their own affairs than Scotland does--Bermuda was in that list. I have been to Bermuda and Bermudans are quite British in their attitudes and their traditions. And yet they're more or less de facto independent. Another example--Canadians I know were absolutely gutted when the Queen Mum died. They still have strong ties to the U.K. in spite of being independent for 150 years and separated by an ocean.

 

I do think you--and maybe even Yes at large--make a political mistake in trying to tell people they don't identify themselves properly. Far as I can tell, an independent Scotland should not necessarily mean the same thing to every single person.

All well and true, very well put as well. My issue with it is there is a basic issue of identity being more than just a loyalty to the monarchy or our attitudes and traditions. There's a lot more to it, the legal rights we enjoy from being British or European and the obligations they impose on the state in turn have a huge impact on that.

 

If independence occured i think with Brexit the impact would be much greater on our ability to enjoy the same rights with our nearest neighbours than the previously invisaged independence in Europe with the rUK also in Europe. A Brexit independence would be much more a separation than previously spoke about. And as we have seen with Brexit we cannot guarantee a similarly favourable position as we enjoy now post that event.

 

To me, the loss of Remain was quite a shock. Not because I was assured of a win but because I do feel as though I have lost a common position with my fellow Europeans. We will soon no longer share in the union we gelped build and lose the rights we enjoyed therein - vastly greater rights than those between the UK and our Commonwealth friends you mentioned above. That loss was of identity because to me identity is meaningless without the harder elements which went with the EU - ie rights to work, free movement, employment protections and voting rights for the European parliament. As even the FM admitted in her recent conference speech, many pro-UK Scots would feel a similar loss that the pro-EU nationalists felt with Brexit in the event of independence.

 

Identity is greater than geographic or cultural affiliations. It's all well that I will be able to still buy a Volkswagen and eat pasta and listen to Mozart but I equally have lost something. Same goes for being able to watch Eastenders, share a monarch and enjoy visiting London as much as I do now.