Brexit?

[John Findlay]

It's hardly just Salmond though.......It's like how if you scratch the surface of even the most well heeled Rangers fan, you uncover an Orangeman bigot......I've never encountered a Nationalist who doesn't have anti English tendencies to varying degrees. Most will deny it obviously.

Let me be your first. My two eldest children are English born and bred and damn proud of it to. As they should be.

I lived and worked in England for twenty six years.

 

I have always voted SNP. How did I manage that? I stayed on the North Edinburgh electoral register. Never registered South.

I would fight for England tomorrow if attacked. But, will always vote for Scottish independence.

[Hasselhoff]

You can spot the Daily Mail and Express readers a mile of.

 

 

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You can spot someone incapable of reading a mile "of"

 

First rule of nationalism - try and discredit all media so that when they point out the flaws in your propaganda, no one listens. I agree the Mail and Express are hopeless, but the same goes for the National.

 

Salmond was on radio this morning tying to suggest that GERS is taking ?30bn more than it should off Scotland's balance sheet. Luckily bloggers are more thorough than the hosts of radio shows and the following link shreds this opinion entirely. Why does he feel the need to lie about such things? If Scotland is so ready for independence, just be honest and stop trying to pull the wool over people's eyes

 

http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/salmond-spins-again_16.html?m=1

[jake]

 

"Meanwhile on earth" - this coming from someone called "Space Mackerel"

 

Truly desperate response from you.

 

The SNP are playing a dangerous game assuming that they will get their 45% plus Remain voters.

 

How many of the 45% voted for Brexit and would vote against the SNP trying to deny their wishes?

 

The SNP's financial case for Independence is in tatters after the oil collapse.

 

If the snp stand on joining the EU after a successful referendum i dont think i could vote yes.

 

What would be the point .

To remove ourselves from one union to another and have less influence.

[Sraman]

If the snp stand on joining the EU after a successful referendum i dont think i could vote yes.

 

What would be the point .

To remove ourselves from one union to another and have less influence.

 

You've been banging that drum for a while now. In one of your posts about it you used the word "power" now you use the word "influence" what has changed?

[Trapper John McIntyre]

Any word on that extra ?350 million per week pal?

 

 

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Any word on Scotland's poond, pal?

[jake]

You've been banging that drum for a while now. In one of your posts about it you used the word "power" now you use the word "influence" what has changed?

 

I have been banging this drum as you put it for a while.

The word change i cant explain.

Perhaps it is because ive repeated the same question a lot.Both sort of amount to the same thing.

 

 

As far as i can tell im in a minority in that i voted yes and brexit.

Ive asked it i suppose to get an answer from yes voters who voted remain.

 

It hasnt happened.

[coconut doug]

You can spot someone incapable of reading a mile "of"

 

First rule of nationalism - try and discredit all media so that when they point out the flaws in your propaganda, no one listens. I agree the Mail and Express are hopeless, but the same goes for the National.

 

Salmond was on radio this morning tying to suggest that GERS is taking ?30bn more than it should off Scotland's balance sheet. Luckily bloggers are more thorough than the hosts of radio shows and the following link shreds this opinion entirely. Why does he feel the need to lie about such things? If Scotland is so ready for independence, just be honest and stop trying to pull the wool over people's eyes

 

http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/salmond-spins-again_16.html?m=1

Salmond wasn't trying to suggest anything. He made his points clearly. You've just called him a liar. What did he lie about?

[Trapper John McIntyre]

Salmond wasn't trying to suggest anything. He made his points clearly. You've just called him a liar. What did he lie about?

Everything, usually.

[Boris]

I have been banging this drum as you put it for a while.

The word change i cant explain.

Perhaps it is because ive repeated the same question a lot.Both sort of amount to the same thing.

As far as i can tell im in a minority in that i voted yes and brexit.

Ive asked it i suppose to get an answer from yes voters who voted remain.

It hasnt happened.

Pre brexit, you voted to leave the union by voting yes in 2014. Notionally had yes won then Scotland would have joined the Eu. No change really as uk part of eu, only difference would be Holyrood in control not Westminster, Brussels as you perceive aside.

 

Personally, I don't think the eu has that much control, in that our govt appoints commissioners, has meps etc and is therefore part of the due process.

 

Out with the Eu, and remaining within the uk, given its political system, I'd argue we are less represented, in that the electoral system means that govt is decided by a small narrow set of constituencies in middle England. So whether Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland vote in a particular way is irrelevant.

[Sraman]

I have been banging this drum as you put it for a while.

The word change i cant explain.

Perhaps it is because ive repeated the same question a lot.Both sort of amount to the same thing.

 

 

As far as i can tell im in a minority in that i voted yes and brexit.

Ive asked it i suppose to get an answer from yes voters who voted remain.

 

It hasnt happened.

 

I'll have a bash then.

 

If I remember correctly your figures were 10% representation at Westminster and only 2% representation in Brussels.

 

10% representation in Westminster equals zero "power" but does offer a platform to present your views and try to influence the wider debate.

 

2% representation in Brussels also equals zero "power" but does offer a platform to present your views and try to influence the wider debate.

 

At present both the Conservatives and Labour are offering very short shrift towards the SNP due to the fear they both have of losing Scotland from the Union (I still can't get my head around why that is given how much of a basketcase we are) so we have little to no chance of influencing anything. I don't see this changing at anytime in the future if we remain in this Union.

 

The influence an independent Scotland's 2% representation in the European Parliament could have is an unknown at present as it hasn't happened but we wouldn't have the main players blanking us due to fear of us wanting to remain in the bloc.

[Space Mackerel]

Any word on Scotland's poond, pal?

All in due course. Have a little patience pal.

 

 

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[Trapper John McIntyre]

All in due course. Have a little patience pal.

 

 

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In a generation?

[frankblack]

You can spot the Daily Mail and Express readers a mile of.

 

 

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You clearly can't. Never bought either but voted for SNP last 3 Scottish and Westminster elections.

 

However I voted for Brexit and think its time Sturgeon stuck to Holyrood matters and doing the job of running our parliament instead of embarrassing Scotland on the world stage over matters which she has no powers.

 

I voted for independence last time but its clear Scotland cannot afford it now. I would vote No should the SNP call another referendum.

[coconut doug]

You clearly can't. Never bought either but voted for SNP last 3 Scottish and Westminster elections.

 

However I voted for Brexit and think its time Sturgeon stuck to Holyrood matters and doing the job of running our parliament instead of embarrassing Scotland on the world stage over matters which she has no powers.

 

I voted for independence last time but its clear Scotland cannot afford it now. I would vote No should the SNP call another referendum.

Have you got anything clearer than this to support your current view?  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-31730120

[Hasselhoff]

Salmond wasn't trying to suggest anything. He made his points clearly. You've just called him a liar. What did he lie about?

See link in my post.

[Space Mackerel]

You clearly can't. Never bought either but voted for SNP last 3 Scottish and Westminster elections.

 

However I voted for Brexit and think its time Sturgeon stuck to Holyrood matters and doing the job of running our parliament instead of embarrassing Scotland on the world stage over matters which she has no powers.

 

I voted for independence last time but its clear Scotland cannot afford it now. I would vote No should the SNP call another referendum.

Sure you have and will.

 

 

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[Space Mackerel]

In a generation?

Al the time in the world pal.

 

 

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[aussieh]

Boris Johnson and his pro-eu column.

[aussieh]

We dont get it back.

We stop paying it.

 

 

Makeral can you answer my points regarding political influence regarding westminster and brussels?

 

My guess is you cant.

 

Its a fundemental flaw in the snp argument .

Its also a fundemental flaw the economic argument regarding indy from westminster and the eu.

 

You cant just keep repeating 350 million question which ive answered several times.

just so you know, Holyrood isn't getting fishing etc... devolved after brexit either.

The prefect admitted it to Andy Neil yesterday.

[aussieh]

 

Cyber Nat Alert. You seem a tad sensitive, dear.

 

I am not going to waste my Sunday on Google for you. My time is more important.

 

I am talking about what the SNP used as the backbone of their policy and sold to the public. You are trying to hunt for obscure quotes to pretend they didn't.

 

Without Oil our economy cannot sustain itself independently as proven by the government figures published shpwing a huge deficit.

 

What are our other major industries that aren't dependent on English business? Financial services?

What's gonnae happen to London and its services sector post brexit? It's 50% of Scotlands trade with England, maybe we should look to changing this.

 

Oil? Whats the average price over the last 40 years? It can't be much higher than $60, it's $51 now.

[jack D and coke]

Boris Johnson and his pro-eu column.

[emoji1]got a link pal?

 

 

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[aussieh]

[emoji1]got a link pal?

 

 

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I don't, but its revealed in a new book and all over the papers today.

 

He said it's a parody.

 

The best bit is the free movement he wants brexit voters to imagine. How stopping your loved ones from working and living abroad(even finding love) would be so bad.

He's now pushing for Hard brexit. Brilliant I thought that's what the vote was for.

 

 

Oh, btw why can Sunderland 61% brexit get special treatment with Nissan and Scotland 62% remain have to lump it? Didn't realise The prefect didn't even have a place on the Brexit committee.

We won't need an indyref2 when England go Independent.

[Space Mackerel]

George Soros mate saying more turmoil to come for the good old British poond if Scotland leaves.

 

Is it the rUK economy that is the real basket case?

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/pound-value-brexit-dollar-euro-jim-rogers-prediction-currency-exchange-latest-a7362086.html?cmpid=facebook-post

 

 

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[Hasselhoff]

Salmond wasn't trying to suggest anything. He made his points clearly. You've just called him a liar. What did he lie about?

He is saying Scotland spends ?30bn extra on things like trident and infrastructure in England which we wouldn't need to spend if we were Indy. Hinckley point and major Westminster refurb are both future events so doesn't even make sense using those to defend why Scotland is overspending massively. He is either lying or willfully ignorant.

 

I look forward to your dismissal of the well constructed evidence as to why Salmond is bullshitting provided in the link on my original post. Let me guess, "can't trust anything the pet shop boy says"?

[Space Mackerel]

He is saying Scotland spends ?30bn extra on things like trident and infrastructure in England which we wouldn't need to spend if we were Indy. Hinckley point and major Westminster refurb are both future events so doesn't even make sense using those to defend why Scotland is overspending massively. He is either lying or willfully ignorant.

 

I look forward to your dismissal of the well constructed evidence as to why Salmond is bullshitting provided in the link on my original post. Let me guess, "can't trust anything the pet shop boy says"?

This must stick a craw in you throat surely?

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/in-scotland-gusts-of-wind-usher-in-a-quiet-energy-revolution/2016/10/15/e5da2f5a-8a57-11e6-8cdc-4fbb1973b506_story.html

 

 

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[Hasselhoff]

This must stick a craw in you throat surely?

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/in-scotland-gusts-of-wind-usher-in-a-quiet-energy-revolution/2016/10/15/e5da2f5a-8a57-11e6-8cdc-4fbb1973b506_story.html

 

 

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Why? Just because I am against the divisive nature of the SNP doesn't mean I am against Scotland. Important not to confuse the two.

 

Renewable energy is important and Scotland has an abundance of the right conditions. It does need to mature though clearly and dependence on it at this point would result in many dark days.

 

Not sure what that had to do with my point where Salmond is making up facts on the hoof though.

[Space Mackerel]

Why? Just because I am against the divisive nature of the SNP doesn't mean I am against Scotland. Important not to confuse the two.

 

Renewable energy is important and Scotland has an abundance of the right conditions. It does need to mature though clearly and dependence on it at this point would result in many dark days.

 

Not sure what that had to do with my point where Salmond is making up facts on the hoof though.

Why are the BBC Scotland reversing photos to give a more sinister appearance?

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/GAPonsonby/status/787274913535168512

 

 

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[Hasselhoff]

Why are the BBC Scotland reversing photos to give a more sinister appearance?

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/GAPonsonby/status/787274913535168512

 

 

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Haha, saw the original tweet from the paranoid GAPonsonby yesterday. Do some more googling and then come back once you realise how silly you are being.

[Thunderstruck]

It seems that memories are fading on the (being kind) spin that Salmond put on potential oil wealth.

 

This might serve to remind:-

 

http://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Scotlands-Claims-of-1.5-Trillion-Oil-Gas-Reserves-are-Way-Off.html

[Space Mackerel]

It seems that memories are fading on the (being kind) spin that Salmond put on potential oil wealth.

 

This might serve to remind:-

 

http://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Scotlands-Claims-of-1.5-Trillion-Oil-Gas-Reserves-are-Way-Off.html

No one claims that the oil industry hasn't taken a battering recently, it's not just Scotland that's felt the effects.

 

I'll bet you ?100 it will rise again? Ok with that?

 

 

 

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[Justin Z]

I have been banging this drum as you put it for a while.

The word change i cant explain.

Perhaps it is because ive repeated the same question a lot.Both sort of amount to the same thing.

 

 

As far as i can tell im in a minority in that i voted yes and brexit.

Ive asked it i suppose to get an answer from yes voters who voted remain.

 

It hasnt happened.

 

I'm neither because I'm neither a permanent resident nor a citizen.

 

But there is absolutely nothing to compare the two concepts in any sort of meaningful way.  Voting to leave a union in which a very large federal body exerts as much or as little control as it wants over the lives of people powerless to vote any kind of change into it, versus voting to remain a member of an economic body that literally has no sovereignty.

 

There are false dichotomies and then there are comparisons so disconnected from reality that you hardly even know what to say.

[Thunderstruck]

No one claims that the oil industry hasn't taken a battering recently, it's not just Scotland that's felt the effects.

 

I'll bet you ?100 it will rise again? Ok with that?

 

 

 

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You either deflect or miss the point and we are all well aware of the slump in oil prices. The point was the misleading information in "Yes" Campaign literature and which was repeated in Salmond's public utterances.

 

Yes, others have felt the effect but, keeping it local, the impact on the UK is very minor. Contrast that with an independent Scotland with oil as a major source of revenue (don't forget, that's where we would have been now had "Yes" prevailed). Looks like we really are Better Together.

 

Of course the price of oil will rise but that also misses the point which is that it is now shown to be volatile. Being a banana republic where the price of bananas can swing dramatically isn't listed under "Good Things" in economic texts.

[Governor Tarkin]

 

You know what really annoys me, I was happy being European, British and Scottish. Now one has been ripped off me as in a few years time I won't be a European citizen and now another choice over my identity is being posed.

 

It's absolutely mental where we are all heading.

It's a depressing state of affairs.

[Governor Tarkin]

 

I don't ,really, think there are many people going 'nhs didn't get a extra ?350m, shit I was lied to and voted the wrong way' I think that's hyperbole in main.

 

The white paper on Indy is a prime example.

I know plenty of people who lapped all this shite up and voted accordingly.

[Boris]

You either deflect or miss the point and we are all well aware of the slump in oil prices. The point was the misleading information in "Yes" Campaign literature and which was repeated in Salmond's public utterances.

 

Yes, others have felt the effect but, keeping it local, the impact on the UK is very minor. Contrast that with an independent Scotland with oil as a major source of revenue (don't forget, that's where we would have been now had "Yes" prevailed). Looks like we really are Better Together.

 

Of course the price of oil will rise but that also misses the point which is that it is now shown to be volatile. Being a banana republic where the price of bananas can swing dramatically isn't listed under "Good Things" in economic texts.

 

Interesting article

 

http://www.thenational.scot/news/treasury-mandarin-who-warned-against-currency-union-now-says-scotland-leaving-uk-is-now-a-golden-opportunity.19786

[Space Mackerel]

You either deflect or miss the point and we are all well aware of the slump in oil prices. The point was the misleading information in "Yes" Campaign literature and which was repeated in Salmond's public utterances.

 

Yes, others have felt the effect but, keeping it local, the impact on the UK is very minor. Contrast that with an independent Scotland with oil as a major source of revenue (don't forget, that's where we would have been now had "Yes" prevailed). Looks like we really are Better Together.

 

Of course the price of oil will rise but that also misses the point which is that it is now shown to be volatile. Being a banana republic where the price of bananas can swing dramatically isn't listed under "Good Things" in economic texts.

 

 

You either deflect or miss the point and we are all well aware of the slump in oil prices. The point was the misleading information in "Yes" Campaign literature and which was repeated in Salmond's public utterances.

 

Yes, others have felt the effect but, keeping it local, the impact on the UK is very minor. Contrast that with an independent Scotland with oil as a major source of revenue (don't forget, that's where we would have been now had "Yes" prevailed). Looks like we really are Better Together.

 

Of course the price of oil will rise but that also misses the point which is that it is now shown to be volatile. Being a banana republic where the price of bananas can swing dramatically isn't listed under "Good Things" in economic texts.

 

Misleading information from the Yes campaign

 

You really have a cheek to say that after Project Fear in 2014 and ?350m extra for the NHS plus the host of other "promises"

 

Utterly unbelievable. Less and less people believe your Unionist tosh day by day.

[jake]

I'm neither because I'm neither a permanent resident nor a citizen.

 

But there is absolutely nothing to compare the two concepts in any sort of meaningful way. Voting to leave a union in which a very large federal body exerts as much or as little control as it wants over the lives of people powerless to vote any kind of change into it, versus voting to remain a member of an economic body that literally has no sovereignty.

 

There are false dichotomies and then there are comparisons so disconnected from reality that you hardly even know what to say.

 

Which very large federal body do yo refer to.

Because as far as im aware we very much do and have had every power to change things.

 

Where as some countries have had their national parliament over ruled.

I dont know how you can say Scotland has no governance of its own affairs under devolution.

And only two years ago had a referendum.

 

As for your assertion that the EU is merely an economic body.

Thats so disconnected from reality i dont know where to begin.

[Justin Z]

As for your assertion that the EU is merely an economic body.

Thats so disconnected from reality i dont know where to begin.

 

Whatever you want to believe is fine by me.  As someone who spent three years postgrad learning how to read and understand law, I guess I'll have to settle for being "disconnected from reality".

 

If a time comes when anything that the EU parliament passes doesn't also have to be individually ratified by any member of its actually sovereign constituency to have an effect in each country that chooses to ratify it, then perhaps this reality you've created will be the one I'm forced to connect to.  Till then, I'm fine having nothing to do with this mythical existence.

[Boris]

Whatever you want to believe is fine by me.  As someone who spent three years postgrad learning how to read and understand law, I guess I'll have to settle for being "disconnected from reality".

 

If a time comes when anything that the EU parliament passes doesn't also have to be individually ratified by any member of its actually sovereign constituency to have an effect in each country that chooses to ratify it, then perhaps this reality you've created will be the one I'm forced to connect to.  Till then, I'm fine having nothing to do with this mythical existence.

 

Braw!

 

[jake]

Primacy of EU law.

[Boris]

Primacy of EU law.

 

Veto?

[jake]

Primacy of European Union law - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_European_Union_law

[Justin Z]

Primacy of EU law.

 

Limited to powers conferred unanimously by its member states in treaty, and checked by the subsidiarity of constituent members.  Important wee detail.

 

Edit: And yes Boris, veto, yet another tool.

[Justin Z]

This is the problem with degrees in Google and Wikipedia--they're not even worth the paper they're not written on.

[jake]

Limited to powers conferred unanimously by its member states in treaty, and checked by the subsidiarity of constituent members. Important wee detail.

 

Ive not said that member states do not have input.

 

My argument is that if Scotland gets independence from westminster then joins the EU on the current form then we are not independent at all.

 

Id also say that we would be weaker in representation .

[Boris]

Ive not said that member states do not have input.

 

My argument is that if Scotland gets independence from westminster then joins the EU on the current form then we are not independent at all.

 

Id also say that we would be weaker in representation .

 

In what way would an independent Scotland suddenly relinquish its independence by being in the EU?

 

As if all legislation that would be passed would be by the EU?

 

You really believe that?

 

However, in the spirit of democracy, I would want any independent Scotland to put EU membership to (another) referendum for the Scottish electorate to decide on.

[jake]

This is the problem with degrees in Google and Wikipedia--they're not even worth the paper they're not written on.

 

Why dont you start a campaign to have the vote removed from us thicko working class types.

 

In the meantime could you explain how Scotland is powerless to change the"federal" powers in this country .

Given we have just had a referendum and we have a devolved parliament.

 

Simple terms please as im just a pleb.

[Justin Z]

You would be wrong.

 

It's not that member states merely "have input".  It is the opposite really--the EU "has input" on what its member states can do individually.  The EU as a body can only touch issues that its member states have allowed it to.  It cannot exceed those powers already unanimously given to it--many of which have one-member vetoes, meaning if it wants to take action in those areas every single member state must agree or it's a no go.

 

And once again, as I stated above in a different way, any legislation the EU passes which has effects internal to its constituent countries must also be ratified by the legislative bodies of the member states to have effect in those states.  Don't like something the EU passed?  Don't ratify it in your own country.  Sovereignty intact and access to the common market and all its advantages maintained.

[Yoda]

What's gonnae happen to London and its services sector post brexit? It's 50% of Scotlands trade with England, maybe we should look to changing this.

 

Oil? Whats the average price over the last 40 years? It can't be much higher than $60, it's $51 now.

Weren't the SNP's sums in the white paper based on $113 a barrel?

[Justin Z]

Why dont you start a campaign to have the vote removed from us thicko working class types.

 

In the meantime could you explain how Scotland is powerless to change the"federal" powers in this country .

Given we have just had a referendum and we have a devolved parliament.

 

Simple terms please as im just a pleb.

 

Dude it's not about being a pleb.  It is about, when you go looking for information on your own, that instead of just settling on things that seem to confirm your preexisting ideas, you need to challenge them.

 

Even Boris ******* Johnson did this, which is why I didn't understand the row when his pro-remain article he wrote as a mental exercise came out.  That was just him being intellectually honest--organising the arguments for EU membership in order to solidify his leave position--shock as that is.

 

There's nothing wrong on that Wikipedia page you posted.  The information is all correct.  But it also doesn't give you even 1% of the perspective one would need to understand how the EU actually works, what powers it actually has, and what protections member states possess if it goes in a direction they don't like.

 

You've made it clear from your posts that you enjoyed the antiestablishment "get it right up ye" aspect of the leave vote.  And it's not one I'm unsympathetic to at all.  There's nothing wrong with being euroskeptical because of its coziness to business and moneyed interests.  But to take that skepticism and act on it thinking your idea of a Brexit Britain had any chance whatsoever of ever materialising with a Tory government and Labour absolutely nowhere, and turn around and hand it off to hard right Tories and UKIPers?  Like they're going to protect the interests of the working class little guy?  Sitting there like the Social Democrats, waving through the Enabling Act in the Kroll Opera House?

 

That is beyond mental.  My only hope is that to do this stems from misunderstanding, not from crystal clear vision and the deranged perception necessary to actually think that would be a good idea.