Brexit?

[Space Mackerel]

You've received backlash to your statement. All I can say, and in following on from my other post, I again don't see why anyone's identity has to go anywhere. That long blog post you quoted with the scores of nations that have more control over their own affairs than Scotland does--Bermuda was in that list. I have been to Bermuda and Bermudans are quite British in their attitudes and their traditions. And yet they're more or less de facto independent. Another example--Canadians I know were absolutely gutted when the Queen Mum died. They still have strong ties to the U.K. in spite of being independent for 150 years and separated by an ocean.

 

I do think you--and maybe even Yes at large--make a political mistake in trying to tell people they don't identify themselves properly. Far as I can tell, an independent Scotland should not necessarily mean the same thing to every single person.

Let's be honest, no one was actually gutted the Queen mum died. She was an old lady who had a good innings. To be actually gutted, you would need to know that person in actual person, just like when my real mum died. I was really really really gutted, not this media induced hyper spin on the news and TV.

 

I'm not sure how you ended up on on Hearts forum, you can let us know. As a regular attendee at Tynecastle and quite a few away games per season, it boils my ****ing piss to hear Hello Hello amongst other ditties, belted out on trains and in pubs by some of our more "colourful" supporters. Mind you, they're usually out their nuts on booze, class A's and peer pressure so I guess I should cut them a little slack.

 

 

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[Pans Jambo]

See the opposition in Westminster have been defeated 293 to 250 in their bid to guarantee EU nationsls rights who currently live and work here should the UK leave the EU.

Theyre not talking about new immigrants from EU countries, theyre talking about the ones who already live here & have made the UK their home.

Its a farce (not on the BBC news either...fancy that?).

A customer of mine in Boness who employs over 500 and sometimes up to 750 told me that if they (the EU nationals) go then they will probably have to shrink the business or shut up shop as the locals are not interested in working in a food factory.

[The Comedian]

See the opposition in Westminster have been defeated 293 to 250 in their bid to guarantee EU nationsls rights who currently live and work here should the UK leave the EU.

Theyre not talking about new immigrants from EU countries, theyre talking about the ones who already live here & have made the UK their home.

Its a farce (not on the BBC news either...fancy that?).

A customer of mine in Boness who employs over 500 and sometimes up to 750 told me that if they (the EU nationals) go then they will probably have to shrink the business or shut up shop as the locals are not interested in working in a food factory.

Having nobody to exploit is going to be a dull one for many employers that's for sure.

[Seymour M Hersh]

See the opposition in Westminster have been defeated 293 to 250 in their bid to guarantee EU nationsls rights who currently live and work here should the UK leave the EU.

Theyre not talking about new immigrants from EU countries, theyre talking about the ones who already live here & have made the UK their home.

Its a farce (not on the BBC news either...fancy that?).

A customer of mine in Boness who employs over 500 and sometimes up to 750 told me that if they (the EU nationals) go then they will probably have to shrink the business or shut up shop as the locals are not interested in working in a food factory.

 

Have the EU guaranteed UK nationals rights to live there after we leave? Thought not. 

[Ibrahim Tall]

Have the EU guaranteed UK nationals rights to live there after we leave? Thought not.

 

It's not up the EU, we're leaving they're not kicking us out. Until we actually invoke article 50 we're still an EU country and are treated as such it's up to the UK government to make the first move.

[Seymour M Hersh]

It's not up the EU, we're leaving they're not kicking us out. Until we actually invoke article 50 we're still an EU country and are treated as such it's up to the UK government to make the first move.

 

So we'll have to guarantee all EU citizens can remain but the EU can tell the 1 million Britons living in the EU to **** off? Absolute piffle. 

[Adam Murray]

I would imagine no guarantees can be made, either to EU nationals living in the UK, or to UK nationals living elsewhere in the EU, until article 50 is triggered and negotiations are concluded.

[jack D and coke]

I would imagine no guarantees can be made, either to EU nationals living in the UK, or to UK nationals living elsewhere in the EU, until article 50 is triggered and negotiations are concluded.

Which is entirely sensible.

 

 

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[Boris]

So we'll have to guarantee all EU citizens can remain but the EU can tell the 1 million Britons living in the EU to **** off? Absolute piffle. 

 

 

I would imagine no guarantees can be made, either to EU nationals living in the UK, or to UK nationals living elsewhere in the EU, until article 50 is triggered and negotiations are concluded.

 

The UK government could unilaterally guarantee that all EU citizens currently living in the UK have the right to remain here.

 

But it won't because it sees these people as bargaining chips, rather than human beings.  

[JamboX2]

Have the EU guaranteed UK nationals rights to live there after we leave? Thought not.

It's not up to the EU. It'll be up to member states. I think Spain are considering imposing charges on British residents post-Brexit for services they currently get for free. Not remotely surprised by that.

[JamboX2]

The UK government could unilaterally guarantee that all EU citizens currently living in the UK have the right to remain here.

 

But it won't because it sees these people as bargaining chips, rather than human beings.

Wouldn't go that far to be honest. I do think the lack of certainty here is more because the government isn't sure what it wants or how to proceed here.

 

Equally, the Scottish government will merely state the opposite of the UK government for the time being. It would certainly be interesting to here what Sturgeon and her wider party members think of joining Schengen. Afterall, if Brexit uncertainty is a chaotic mess as some in the SNP are portraying it, I'd hope to make independence smoother that they've considered how they want to approach the EU and in doing so are open and transparent on it.

[Boris]

Wouldn't go that far to be honest. I do think the lack of certainty here is more because the government isn't sure what it wants or how to proceed here.

 

Equally, the Scottish government will merely state the opposite of the UK government for the time being. It would certainly be interesting to here what Sturgeon and her wider party members think of joining Schengen. Afterall, if Brexit uncertainty is a chaotic mess as some in the SNP are portraying it, I'd hope to make independence smoother that they've considered how they want to approach the EU and in doing so are open and transparent on it.

 

I would.  Just cards in Patel's hand of poker.

 

On your second point, I'd personally want any independent Scotland that wants to join the eu to have to have the terms of entry and membership ratified by the people via referendum.

[By The Light..]

Check out the ties that bind graphic here;

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-06/brexit-bulletin-where-s-the-plan#media-1

 

Customs Union, EFTA and Schengen all to be discussed.

[Ibrahim Tall]

So we'll have to guarantee all EU citizens can remain but the EU can tell the 1 million Britons living in the EU to **** off? Absolute piffle.

Now you're just talking nonsense, the EU have said nothing like that at all. Britain is an EU member and as such British people are as welcome as before, and if it were up to the rest of the EU that status would remain.

It's the UK that's voted to leave and created nothing but uncertainty for all by doing so and then failing to give any indication of its plans on doing so or how it will act afterwards.

As the 'leaver' it's the UK governments responsibility to act first not the EU's.

[JamboX2]

I would. Just cards in Patel's hand of poker.

 

On your second point, I'd personally want any independent Scotland that wants to join the eu to have to have the terms of entry and membership ratified by the people via referendum.

Not so sure. I'm quietly optimistic May, due to a fear of a UK break up and Parliament, will opt for a softer Brexit than spoke about. I think the harsh reality of the alternative may yet spook the government.

 

As for the second point, we can only live in hope that, that is the case should it come to it. However, i have a hunch that independence will be packaged as indy in europe. Meaning that independence will be used as support for an EU membership deal regardless.

 

Personally, if Yes were to win I'd hope that there would be a Grand Coalition of all parties. This is too big an issue to be left to one view point of the electorate. Same with Brexit. Which we are still clueless on.

[jack D and coke]

Not so sure. I'm quietly optimistic May, due to a fear of a UK break up and Parliament, will opt for a softer Brexit than spoke about. I think the harsh reality of the alternative may yet spook the government.

 

As for the second point, we can only live in hope that, that is the case should it come to it. However, i have a hunch that independence will be packaged as indy in europe. Meaning that independence will be used as support for an EU membership deal regardless.

 

Personally, if Yes were to win I'd hope that there would be a Grand Coalition of all parties. This is too big an issue to be left to one view point of the electorate. Same with Brexit. Which we are still clueless on.

I don't recall soft brexit being on the card.

Anything other than that, come what may, is an outrage. The vote must be seen to be honoured imo.

 

 

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[coconut doug]

Wouldn't go that far to be honest. I do think the lack of certainty here is more because the government isn't sure what it wants or how to proceed here.

 

Equally, the Scottish government will merely state the opposite of the UK government for the time being. It would certainly be interesting to here what Sturgeon and her wider party members think of joining Schengen. Afterall, if Brexit uncertainty is a chaotic mess as some in the SNP are portraying it, I'd hope to make independence smoother that they've considered how they want to approach the EU and in doing so are open and transparent on it.

Was the Scottish government smart enough to state the opposite of the U.K. government before the U.K. government made it's statement? 

 

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-07-03/tory-leadership-candidates-urged-to-guarantee-eu-citizens-right-to-remain-in-uk-post-brexit/

 

Are you expecting us to believe that if the U.K. government guaranteed the rights of EU citizens then the Scottish government would oppose this simply because it is U.K. policy?

[Sraman]

Not so sure. I'm quietly optimistic May, due to a fear of a UK break up and Parliament, will opt for a softer Brexit than spoke about. I think the harsh reality of the alternative may yet spook the government.

 

As for the second point, we can only live in hope that, that is the case should it come to it. However, i have a hunch that independence will be packaged as indy in europe. Meaning that independence will be used as support for an EU membership deal regardless.

 

Personally, if Yes were to win I'd hope that there would be a Grand Coalition of all parties. This is too big an issue to be left to one view point of the electorate. Same with Brexit. Which we are still clueless on.

 

If yes were to win which parties do you think should be in this grand coalition?

[Adam Murray]

The UK government could unilaterally guarantee that all EU citizens currently living in the UK have the right to remain here.

 

But it won't because it sees these people as bargaining chips, rather than human beings.

Politics and Politicians have been doing this since the year dot, it's what they do, whatever their political persuasion they will use people as 'bargaining chips', setting one group off against another, it's not a new, evil, UK Government, Tory's only thing.

[Boris]

Politics and Politicians have been doing this since the year dot, it's what they do, whatever their political persuasion they will use people as 'bargaining chips', setting one group off against another, it's not a new, evil, UK Government, Tory's only thing.

Wasn't saying that it was new or unique, but it is rather unpalatable.

[jack D and coke]

This article is fairly hard hitting...

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/10/18/brexit-death-of-british-business/?utm_source=sumome&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=sumome_share

 

 

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[Boris]

This article is fairly hard hitting...

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/10/18/brexit-death-of-british-business/?utm_source=sumome&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=sumome_share

 

 

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It is.  A good piece.

 

Yay neo-liberal/monetarist/Thatcherite capitalism!

[Seymour M Hersh]

Now you're just talking nonsense, the EU have said nothing like that at all. Britain is an EU member and as such British people are as welcome as before, and if it were up to the rest of the EU that status would remain.

It's the UK that's voted to leave and created nothing but uncertainty for all by doing so and then failing to give any indication of its plans on doing so or how it will act afterwards.

As the 'leaver' it's the UK governments responsibility to act first not the EU's.

 

All the "act first" will entail is invoking article 50. Then the negotiating starts and that's all I was saying to the poster who seemed upset the UK Gov has not guaranteed EU nationals residency post leaving.

[Space Mackerel]

Think I'll watch Schindlers List tonight to remind me what kind of country the U.K. has become since the upsurge of the far right and English Nationalism

[Justin Z]

I'm not sure how you ended up on on Hearts forum, you can let us know. As a regular attendee at Tynecastle and quite a few away games per season, it boils my ******* piss to hear Hello Hello amongst other ditties, belted out on trains and in pubs by some of our more "colourful" supporters. Mind you, they're usually out their nuts on booze, class A's and peer pressure so I guess I should cut them a little slack.

 

 

It's a decent story, if I may say so myself (even if I was rather drunk when I wrote it!)

 

I agree wholeheartedly with your take and your feelings on such idiotic behaviour and opinion.  I stood, embarrassed and annoyed, in the Middleton Pub on Easter Road listening to some of it before the Scottish Cup replay.  This was after filling with gladness at similar dipshits being shushed down by the sensible element of the support when they started to carry on after we equalised 1-1 against Celtic last December (the 2-2 game with the Sow finish).

 

However, I in no way think anyone who would vote or did vote No is necessarily anything like the people you describe, simply because the people you describe also overwhelmingly would have voted No.

[Space Mackerel]

This article is fairly hard hitting...http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/10/18/brexit-death-of-british-business/?utm_source=sumome&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=sumome_share

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What did you think was going to happen after a Brexit? It's basically the same as running a business and telling all your customers to "**** off, we are doing things way different now. How that is, we have no idea"

 

Honest to God man.

[Pans Jambo]

Having nobody to exploit is going to be a dull one for many employers that's for sure.

Fact is they are paid the UK set legal minimum wage, overtime payments, holiday entitlement, pension, work & time directive etc. Hardly exploitation.

Edit: Also, some of the EU nationals have been here that long they are now in management positions.

[JamboX2]

I don't recall soft brexit being on the card.

Anything other than that, come what may, is an outrage. The vote must be seen to be honoured imo.

 

 

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In that case post Brexit i want ?350m worth of money extra thrown at the NHS every week.

 

The people voted to leave. What leave means depends who you listened to. Bojo and customs union? Farage and hardest possible Brexit?

[JamboX2]

Was the Scottish government smart enough to state the opposite of the U.K. government before the U.K. government made it's statement?

 

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-07-03/tory-leadership-candidates-urged-to-guarantee-eu-citizens-right-to-remain-in-uk-post-brexit/

 

Are you expecting us to believe that if the U.K. government guaranteed the rights of EU citizens then the Scottish government would oppose this simply because it is U.K. policy?

Second part no. Don't be daft.

 

First part, all credit to her. I do back her here.

 

At present though the government could provide a full, open and transparent statement on their negotiating position and it wouldn't be enough.

 

It's also a turn of phrase Coco. Ie they will oppose on everything if it benefits them.

[JamboX2]

If yes were to win which parties do you think should be in this grand coalition?

Any who have seats in the Scottish Parliament at that time.

[Space Mackerel]

You see this is where you don't get it, no voters tend to be perfectly content with our Scottish and British identities - it is the Yes voters who have an identity crisis, a persecution complex, stumbling through life blaming the Tories or the English for their own failed miserable existence.

 

I genuinely would love another independence referendum next week, it would be smashed into oblivion when Scotland many failures are educated to a level where it would become obvious that their own failed lives would become immeasurably worse following crippling tax rises and spending cuts.. turkeys do not vote for Christmas..

What you on about? My dad grew up in Polwarth, my mum in Dalry, myself in Oxgangs. How does that make me quint essential British? I'm Scottish first and I tell people if they ask me that's where I'm from.

 

Imagine going about saying you're Youkayese?

 

 

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[jack D and coke]

In that case post Brexit i want ?350m worth of money extra thrown at the NHS every week.

 

The people voted to leave. What leave means depends who you listened to. Bojo and customs union? Farage and hardest possible Brexit?

Why can't you accept it? What is about people nowadays? Leave won. Get over it ffs.

[Space Mackerel]

Oh Ruth Oh Ruth Oh Ruth

 

 

 

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[jack D and coke]

What did you think was going to happen after a Brexit? It's basically the same as running a business and telling all your customers to "**** off, we are doing things way different now. How that is, we have no idea"

 

Honest to God man.

Mate when you accept the irony in your Indy stance then I'll debate you over brexit.

[Space Mackerel]

Mate when you accept the irony in your Indy stance then I'll debate you over brexit.

What irony?

 

One minute you're pro Brexit, next you're posting links to US media saying the U.K. is done.

 

One minute you're slating independence then the next post you're backing it up.

 

I've dated birds who have changed their minds less than you, granted not a lot but I can think of 2 right now [emoji23]

 

 

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[jack D and coke]

What irony?

 

One minute you're pro Brexit, next you're posting links to US media saying the U.K. is done.

 

One minute you're slating independence then the next post you're backing it up.

 

I've dated birds who have changed their minds less than you, granted not a lot but I can think of 2 right now [emoji23]

 

 

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When have I said I'm anti brexit? I'm just able to post stuff I come across and let others read. I didn't say I'd changed my mind I'm totally relaxed about it.

I havent slated independence either, show me where I have please pal[emoji1] I might have questioned some aspects of it but state it? I don't think so. I'm just not a drone pal.

And how you can't see the irony in your views I'm struggling to understand. You want us to leave a union we've been in for over 300 years and where we do the vast majority of our trade and share everything from currency to military etc etc etc then slate the uk for leaving a union that was maligned by large parts of the country and growing yet you fail to see the irony?

Aye???

 

 

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[Space Mackerel]

When have I said I'm anti brexit? I'm just able to post stuff I come across and let others read. I didn't say I'd changed my mind I'm totally relaxed about it.

I havent slated independence either, show me where I have please pal[emoji1] I might have questioned some aspects of it but state it? I don't think so. I'm just not a drone pal.

And how you can't see the irony in your views I'm struggling to understand. You want us to leave a union we've been in for over 300 years and where we do the vast majority of our trade and share everything from currency to military etc etc etc then slate the uk for leaving a union that was maligned by large parts of the country and growing yet you fail to see the irony?

Aye???

 

 

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The Union is fecked pal, 300 years has come to an end. It's been patched up by the MSM for years and people have woken up.

 

 

 

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[jack D and coke]

The Union is fecked pal, 300 years has come to an end. It's been patched up by the MSM for years and people have woken up.

 

 

 

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See I agree with that but I'm enough of an adult to accept that we had a vote on this and a majority of people didn't want it. You could debate till the cows come home about why that was but at the end of the day Scotland rejected independence. I'm also over it and relaxed about it there's more important stuff to worry about. If it ever happens again I'm totally at ease with it.

If people would only accept that brexit has happened and stop trying to gerrymander a different result.

Scotland effectively voted to be North Britain and as much as I don't like that there it is.

 

 

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[Space Mackerel]

See I agree with that but I'm enough of an adult to accept that we had a vote on this and a majority of people didn't want it. You could debate till the cows come home about why that was but at the end of the day Scotland rejected independence. I'm also over it and relaxed about it there's more important stuff to worry about. If it ever happens again I'm totally at ease with it.

If people would only accept that brexit has happened and stop trying to gerrymander a different result.

Scotland effectively voted to be North Britain and as much as I don't like that there it is.

 

 

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I accepted the result too, took me a while but I got over it, same as everything in life.

However, there has been a seriously major change in economic foreign and domestic policy, myself personally don't subscribe to this doctrine.

 

If you're happy being North British and sooking the handouts, be my guest.

 

 

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[jack D and coke]

I accepted the result too, took me a while but I got over it, same as everything in life.

However, there has been a seriously major change in economic foreign and domestic policy, myself personally don't subscribe to this doctrine.

 

If you're happy being North British and sooking the handouts, be my guest.

 

 

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There was a massive change in circumstances had Scotland voted Yes as well. Would you have been happy with unionists campaigning and whingeing that we didn't know what we'd voted for and kept saying it should be soft Indy now or we should just abandon it all and we'd basically accept all the conditions of the union we just voted to leave and forget it all happened or is that different again?

 

 

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[Space Mackerel]

There was a massive change in circumstances had Scotland voted Yes as well. Would you have been happy with unionists campaigning and whingeing that we didn't know what we'd voted for and kept saying it should be soft Indy now or we should just abandon it all and we'd basically accept all the conditions of the union we just voted to leave and forget it all happened or is that different again?

 

 

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Do you honestly think if Scotland went independent it would turn the English border into something like North/South Korea?

 

 

Because there are people in this world and on here who think it would.

 

 

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[jack D and coke]

Do you honestly think if Scotland went independent it would turn the English border into something like North/South Korea?

 

 

Because there are people in this world and on here who think it would.

 

 

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[emoji1]

Why don't you answer my question instead of trying to take the debate off on a different tangent?

To answer yours though I believe if Britain goes hard brexit and hypothetically we go Indy and back into the EU for arguments sake I think only a fool wouldn't accept that there might end up being some sort of border control. It's the English cities most of the immigrants want to live, not in the Scottish highlands.

[Space Mackerel]

[emoji1]

Why don't you answer my question instead of trying to take the debate off on a different tangent?

To answer yours though I believe if Britain goes hard brexit and hypothetically we go Indy and back into the EU for arguments sake I think only a fool wouldn't accept that there might end up being some sort of border control. It's the English cities most of the immigrants want to live, not in the Scottish highlands.

What question?

 

And to border controls, it's already happening in NI and the Republic, it's not as if it's anything new. Guess that's just another oversight from the eyes wide shut Brexiteers.

 

 

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[coconut doug]

As I suspected, you have nothing. Always the person who asks for evidence no matter what the statement. Provided with some, you now want "my thoughts". If I had given you a link to the BBC, you would have dismissed that as biased.

 

Ok, time for a bit of your own medicine - you provide evidence why the blog is wrong and why Salmond is correct. Tell me all the things that Scotland pays for which we wouldn't need to pay for in Indy Scotland and give an annual value for each. You can refer to a blog if you like if you don't personally have these figures to hand or have time to research.

 

 

He is saying Scotland spends ?30bn extra on things like trident and infrastructure in England which we wouldn't need to spend if we were Indy. Hinckley point and major Westminster refurb are both future events so doesn't even make sense using those to defend why Scotland is overspending massively. He is either lying or willfully ignorant.

 

I look forward to your dismissal of the well constructed evidence as to why Salmond is bullshitting provided in the link on my original post. Let me guess, "can't trust anything the pet shop boy says"?

The trouble with your argument is that Salmond does not actually say what you claim he says. Interestingly the blog you link to does not agree with the point you make either. That is why I asked you to state clearly what you think Salmond is lying about. I would suggest that Scotland's contribution to Trident, HS2 and the Westminster refurbishment would not be too far away from ?30billion as Salmond suggested. Chokka blog suggests a good bit less but I keep thinking Trams and expect significant cost increases. You could quite easily argue that Salmond avoided the question and answered another one but I am not convinced he told a direct lie unless of course you have evidence to the contrary.

 

I'm sorry you don't like my requests for evidence but I have had people claim that despite evidence to the contrary from Audit Scotland that Scotland's block grant has been increasing, they think the proportion of electricity generated by renewables in Scotland is around 20% yet the organisation responsible for it Scottish renewables says it's nearly 60%. We have people claiming Salmond lied about legal advice despite an enquiry finding in his favour and others claiming Salmond invented figures for oil reserves despite industry figures quoting the excact same figures. We have others suggesting Scottish Schools had National testing and League Tables but cant find the evidence. Recent discussions around the collapsing Scottish economy are also difficult to substantiate because  despite the oil price collapse the Scottish economy has grown. 

 

I have provided evidence to support all of my assertions but others don't think they need to do the same. I think there is a problem for people who live in a cult, they seem to think that everybody believes the same as they do and cannot really take part in evidence based discussions when their beliefs are challenged, hence the all so frequent tirade of insults those so interested in defending British values..

[jack D and coke]

There was a massive change in circumstances had Scotland voted Yes as well. Would you have been happy with unionists campaigning and whingeing that we didn't know what we'd voted for and kept saying it should be soft Indy now or we should just abandon it all and we'd basically accept all the conditions of the union we just voted to leave and forget it all happened or is that different again?

 

 

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What question?

 

And to border controls, it's already happening in NI and the Republic, it's not as if it's anything new. Guess that's just another oversight from the eyes wide shut Brexiteers.

 

 

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[emoji1369]The post above yours I just quoted. Isn't that a question I asked you?

[jake]

Having nobody to exploit is going to be a dull one for many employers that's for sure.

 

Poetry mate poetry

[Space Mackerel]

[emoji1369]The post above yours I just quoted. Isn't that a question I asked you?

How am I meant to gauge their feelings and reactions FFS?

 

 

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[jack D and coke]

How am I meant to gauge their feelings and reactions FFS?

 

 

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Eh?? Right I'm out.

[Space Mackerel]

Eh?? Right I'm out.

You want me to comment on something that's never happened. Ok then.

 

 

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[jack D and coke]

You want me to comment on something that's never happened. Ok then.

 

 

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I asked what your feelings would be if in similar circumstances the unionists were saying about independence pretty much exactly what your saying about a brexit....it's not that difficult mate[emoji1]

I'd tell you what you'd say....**** off Yes won that's what you'd say...

Amirite???[emoji1]