The 2015 General Election Megathread

[deesidejambo]

Cutting edge stuff. I believe Fringe venues are still available.

Will it be on a zero-hours contract?  

[aussieh]

I can see it now on Friday........

 

Nicola: Brilliant! 40 seats! Now get down to Westminster and do whats best for Scotland.

 

The 40: But haud on. If we do that successfully then won't that make people less keen on Independence?

 

Nicola: Aw bugger. Well OK, pretend you're doing whats best, but in reality try to make the whole thing a mess.

 

The 40: But won't that make people suffer even more?

 

Nicola: Never mind that.

 

The 40: Well Nicola, at least we can't say we are ruled by Tory Toffs anymore. But oh shite, wasn't that a by-line for the Indepencence campaign to pick up votes? Now thats gone as well.

 

Nicola: Aw bollocks. Anyway lets continue to push for FFA.

 

The 40: No probs, but the oil price has gone belly-up, so can we keep the Barnett formula as well?

 

Nicola: Aw shite.

The Fiftyone, 51.

[leginten]

Will it be on a zero-hours contract?

 

Not sure, but judging by the preview it'll certainly be a zero audience affair.

[deesidejambo]

The Fiftyone, 51.

Please don't let it be 51.  Anything but fifty-fecking-one.  How about 40 from the semi- a few years ago?

?

[deesidejambo]

Not sure, but judging by the preview it'll certainly be a zero audience affair.

That hurt.   But thats a norm for the Fringe anyway.

[luckydug]

Just seen on ITN evening news 3 minutes ago. Seems the most recent polls are saying 55 seats for the SNP.

 

BOOOO....I want 5-1 seats!

 

Looks like nobody's been fooled by Jim's wee stage managed drama.

[leginten]

That hurt.   But thats a norm for the Fringe anyway.

Anyway, back to that bottle of Ardbeg...

[aussieh]

Please don't let it be 51. Anything but fifty-fecking-one. How about 40 from the semi- a few years ago?

?

Any will dae, but 51

[Gorgiewave]

Stirring stuff. We need to get on with this rather than the Bolivarian institutionalised victimhood the SNP promote. Real solidarity, people doing their best with their lives:

 

Edited May 5, 2015 by Gorgiewave

[deesidejambo]

Anyway, back to that bottle of Ardbeg...

It was, and still is, particularly pleasant.     I don't know where I'd be without it.     And theres still plenty left for Friday to toast Anne Beggs punting of the SNP back to their cave.

[luckydug]

I can see it now on Friday........

 

Nicola:  Brilliant!  40 seats!  Now get down to Westminster and do whats best for Scotland.

 

The 40:  But haud on. If we do that successfully then won't that make people less keen on Independence?

 

Nicola: Aw bugger.  Well OK, pretend you're doing whats best, but in reality try to make the whole thing a mess.

 

The 40: But won't that make people suffer even more?

 

Nicola: Never mind that.

 

The 40: Well Nicola, at least we can't say we are ruled by Tory Toffs anymore.  But oh shite, wasn't that a by-line for the Indepencence campaign to pick up votes?  Now thats gone as well.

 

Nicola: Aw bollocks.  Anyway lets continue to push for FFA.

 

The 40: No probs, but the oil price has gone belly-up, so can we keep the Barnett formula as well?

 

Nicola:    Aw shite.

 

You know I popped over to .nut to see what their election thread is like.

Much to my surprise there is none of this crap on there.

They are actually having a proper debate with sensible discussion .

Sorry to have to say this but it puts JKB to shame.

I wonder what type of poster we have that they dont have ?

[TheMaganator]

Stirring stuff. We need to get on with this rather than the Bolivarian institutionalised victimhood the SNP promote. Real solidarity, people doing their best with their lives:

 

Superb.

 

'"What we have built let no nationalist split asunder".

[deesidejambo]

You know I popped over to .nut to see what their election thread is like.

Much to my surprise there is none of this crap on there.

They are actually having a proper debate with sensible discussion .

Sorry to have to say this but it puts JKB to shame.

I wonder what type of poster we have that they dont have ?

Maybe we have some who don't take ourselves too seriously?     Lighten up.

[tweegy]

Superb.

 

'"What we have built let no nationalist split asunder".

Gone to labour now Mag?

[deesidejambo]

Maybe we have some who don't take ourselves too seriously?     Lighten up.

OK tell you what - heres the "serious discussion"for you.......

 

The Nats are in bind.  They claim they will do whats best for Scotland in Westminster.  But if they do that they will obviously dilute the case for Independence.  

 

If they support a minority Labour Gov't, the "kick out the Tories" will also be achieved, again diluting one of the reasons people voted for independence.

 

So how can they move to Independence if they themselves are part of th eGov't that will be, in their words no doubt "delivering for Scotland"?

 

So they will end up with 40 lame-duck MPs down there, leaving the way one for the other parties to make inboards in Holyrood.

 

And whether you like it or not, that brainless candidate who showed she had no idea what FFA is, will be one of them.  

 

Discuss that.

Edited May 5, 2015 by deesidejambo

[dc-jambo]

51

[JamboX2]

Don't think the outcome will be much different this time in terms of balance. My feeling is that if you offered the SNP 41 seats right now they'd take it.

Agree absolutely with your points and I know you've been making them for a long time. FPTP is a terrible system. It's just that I've never before heard such bumping of gums about the current system and the outcome it may produce this time from so many supporters of parties which have habitually profited from it.

Totally agree. But it's a crap and undemocratic system in an era of multi-party democracy. If this election returns a minority and a number of smaller parties, then we need to change the system.

 

If you remove the chances of a majority, policies become aims. Aims then become messages and from that the people can elect a chamber which closely reflects their views and provides the numbers for parties to form government on the back of it.

 

If that means more UKIP members, less Liberals, more Greens and yes less Labour, then so be it. Parties live and die by their time in the light. If UKIP make a total arse of 15 MPs and influence, they'll go the way of the dodo.

 

But what it allows is choice. Want Labour vote for it. Want UKIP vote for it. Want a One Nation Tory vote for it. It'd cause some upheaval. Labour would likely move left and the Tories would fragment over Europe, but that creates space for newer parties to accurately represent people's views.

 

If in 20 years time that meant a Tory-UKIP-DUP government or a Labour-Liberal-Green alliance, then good. It'd reflect a broad seat of opinion and would cover many policies and have a greater legitimacy - majority of votes cast rather than seats won.

[deesidejambo]

Gone to labour now Mag?

Maybe he's been a stalking-horse all along?   You live and learn.

[Sidsnot]

I can see it now on Friday........

 

Nicola:  Brilliant!  40 seats!  Now get down to Westminster and do whats best for Scotland.

 

The 40:  But haud on. If we do that successfully then won't that make people less keen on Independence?

 

Nicola: Aw bugger.  Well OK, pretend you're doing whats best, but in reality try to make the whole thing a mess.

 

The 40: But won't that make people suffer even more?

 

Nicola: Never mind that.

 

The 40: Well Nicola, at least we can't say we are ruled by Tory Toffs anymore.  But oh shite, wasn't that a by-line for the Indepencence campaign to pick up votes?  Now thats gone as well.

 

Nicola: Aw bollocks.  Anyway lets continue to push for FFA.

 

The 40: No probs, but the oil price has gone belly-up, so can we keep the Barnett formula as well?

 

Nicola:    Aw shite.

Monty Python. John Cleese. "Deeside Jambo,your a looney."

DJ. "I know,I know."

[Gorgiewave]

SNP bad!

 

Do you think that posting the same negative nonsense that obliterated Labour in Scotland will work on converting undecided/SNP supporters? What do you gain from posting endless links with no substance?

 

Watch the video. It's positive!

 

Just not hysterical.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Gorgiewave

[Sidsnot]

SNP bad!

Do you think that posting the same negative nonsense that obliterated Labour in Scotland will work on converting undecided/SNP supporters? What do you gain from posting endless links with no substance?

You have to give the boy his due,he's good at making a fool of himself,repetitive rubbish on a daily basis,roll on Friday.

[deesidejambo]

Monty Python. John Cleese. "Deeside Jambo,your a looney."

DJ. "I know,I know."

Ach ye've nae sense o humour.         C'mon Annie!!!!!

[JamboX2]

SNP bad!

Do you think that posting the same negative nonsense that obliterated Labour in Scotland will work on converting undecided/SNP supporters? What do you gain from posting endless links with no substance?

Tbh, the SNP message is effectively no more than 3 negatives:

 

1. More Scottish than our opponents

2. Not Tory

3. Don't trust Labour with your vote.

 

Labour's is:

 

1. Want Labour governments, vote Labour as voting SNP reduces Labour seats.

2. Nationalism is bad, don't trust it.

 

Tory:

 

1. Don't trust Labour with the recovery.

2. Parties who want to break up the UK shouldn't influence the running of it.

3. Europe isn't really an issue for us, but we're making it one...

 

LibDem:

 

1. Don't trust anyone else

2. See points on SNP above.

 

To the supporters or to voters who back these parties, these views are actually viewed as positives.

[Sidsnot]

Ach ye've nae sense o humour.         C'mon Annie!!!!!

But it's all done in the best possible taste.

[tweegy]

.

2. Nationalism is bad, don't trust it.

 

 

Unless its British nationalism?

[leginten]

Totally agree. But it's a crap and undemocratic system in an era of multi-party democracy. If this election returns a minority and a number of smaller parties, then we need to change the system.

If you remove the chances of a majority, policies become aims. Aims then become messages and from that the people can elect a chamber which closely reflects their views and provides the numbers for parties to form government on the back of it.

If that means more UKIP members, less Liberals, more Greens and yes less Labour, then so be it. Parties live and die by their time in the light. If UKIP make a total arse of 15 MPs and influence, they'll go the way of the dodo.

But what it allows is choice. Want Labour vote for it. Want UKIP vote for it. Want a One Nation Tory vote for it. It'd cause some upheaval. Labour would likely move left and the Tories would fragment over Europe, but that creates space for newer parties to accurately represent people's views.

If in 20 years time that meant a Tory-UKIP-DUP government or a Labour-Liberal-Green alliance, then good. It'd reflect a broad seat of opinion and would cover many policies and have a greater legitimacy - majority of votes cast rather than seats won.

There's nothing inherently wrong with coalition government. Germany, which I think has an almost identical voting system to Holyrood, is more or less accustomed to the idea. It has produced some strange alliances - none stranger than the current arrangement - but they appear to work.

 

Charles Kennedy has just been on TV bemoaning the disenfranchising of the hundreds of thousands of Scots who will vote Tory on Thursday. While I'd have been blinking hard if I'd heard him expressing precisely those sentiments during the last Westminster campaign, he's right.

[TheMaganator]

Unless its British nationalism?

Don't confuse nationalism with patriotism.

 

Many Scottish nationalist attempt to do this. They

 

Being pro-union does not make you a British nationalist.

[deesidejambo]

There's nothing inherently wrong with coalition government. Germany, which I think has an almost identical voting system to Holyrood, is more or less accustomed to the idea. It has produced some strange alliances - none stranger than the current arrangement - but they appear to work.

 

Charles Kennedy has just been on TV bemoaning the disenfranchising of the hundreds of thousands of Scots who will vote Tory on Thursday. While I'd have been blinking hard if I'd heard him expressing precisely those sentiments during the last Westminster campaign, he's right.

Maybe he got Tories and LDs mixed-up.  You know what he's like after he's had a few.

[TheMaganator]

SNP bad!

 

Do you think that posting the same negative nonsense that obliterated Labour in Scotland will work on converting undecided/SNP supporters? What do you gain from posting endless links with no substance?

You've either posted this without watching the video or have lost the plot. That's not negative at all.

[TheMaganator]

There's nothing inherently wrong with coalition government. Germany, which I think has an almost identical voting system to Holyrood, is more or less accustomed to the idea. It has produced some strange alliances - none stranger than the current arrangement - but they appear to work.

 

Charles Kennedy has just been on TV bemoaning the disenfranchising of the hundreds of thousands of Scots who will vote Tory on Thursday. While I'd have been blinking hard if I'd heard him expressing precisely those sentiments during the last Westminster campaign, he's right.

There's nothing at all wrong with the main party in Scotland repeatedly saying they won't be happy until you're never represented again.

 

Won't somebody think of the Tories?

[tweegy]

Don't confuse nationalism with patriotism.

 

Many Scottish nationalist attempt to do this. They

 

Being pro-union does not make you a British nationalist.

So thinking that UK is best for you is patriotism, but thinking an independent Scotland may be best is nationalism?

[Guest Trapper John]

You've either posted this without watching the video or have lost the plot. That's not negative at all.

He lives in Belgium, Mag and claims to be a Labour supporter.

 

Think he needs to call Confused.com.

 

Meanwhile Gorgiewave out in Spain is laughing his cojones off...

[JamboX2]

Unless its British nationalism?

I don't buy nationalism of any form. Sorry. British, Scottish, Pan-European. Not for me. I'm Scottish and British by where I was born. I'm from Edinburgh. I'm a Jambo. I'm ginger. I'm a man. I'm many things. One form of identity doesn't cover it.

 

I'm a person. I vote for what I believe is a good and right way to run the nation. For me the values of Labour align closely with that - a pragmatic form of that broad church of socialism.

 

It's why I don't understand the whole independence and anti-EU thing deep down. It's divisive and helps no one.

 

Power is best exercised at a variety of levels in a society to reflect local, national and trains-national concerns. Someone needs to collect my bin, someone needs to provide local schools, someone needs to collect the taxes to pay for that, someone needs to represent me internationally and someone needs to coordinate a response to global events that one nation alone cannot control.

 

So, my point in that was hypothetical. I don't condone nationalism of any kind. I'm not a nationalist and I'm not overly patriotic.

[aussieh]

Don't confuse nationalism with patriotism.

 

Many Scottish nationalist attempt to do this. They

 

Being pro-union does not make you a British nationalist.

Well all us pro indy must be good Patriots.

[deesidejambo]

So thinking that UK is best for you is patriotism, but thinking an independent Scotland may be best is nationalism?

There is always an interpretational issue.  If, for example, shetland decided they wanted to be Independent from Scotland - is that Nationalism?

[tweegy]

Don't confuse nationalism with patriotism.

 

Many Scottish nationalist attempt to do this. They

 

Being pro-union does not make you a British nationalist.

But being pro self determination and pro eu makes you a nationalist, and not a patriot?

[luckydug]

OK tell you what - heres the "serious discussion"for you.......

 

The Nats are in bind.  They claim they will do whats best for Scotland in Westminster.  But if they do that they will obviously dilute the case for Independence.  

 

If they support a minority Labour Gov't, the "kick out the Tories" will also be achieved, again diluting one of the reasons people voted for independence.

 

So how can they move to Independence if they themselves are part of th eGov't that will be, in their words no doubt "delivering for Scotland"?

 

So they will end up with 40 lame-duck MPs down there, leaving the way one for the other parties to make inboards in Holyrood.

 

And whether you like it or not, that brainless candidate who showed she had no idea what FFA is, will be one of them.  

 

Discuss that.

 

Good to see you have conceded defeat already.

What makes you think that your girl in Aberdeen South will succeed when all the other Labour candidates are dropping like flies ?

Why should the other parties make inroads at Holyrood when they have been trounced here. Most of them will only get in on the list vote.

If its a Tory /Lib Dem minority Gov. 40 SNP MPs or 40 Lab MPs makes no odds they would both be powerless.

If its a Labour minority Gov. The SNP would work with them as long as they agreed with their policy.

I dont believe this nonsense about Labour calling the shots the SNP members would abstain if they had to. Labour would then peddle the myth that the SNP had brought them down but the Scottish people would see right through that. 

[JAYEL]

Its started seen on another site from snp fanatic " I see anything over 30 as a success"

 

by thursday it will be 25- 27.

 

 

SNP Over 49.5 seats  - 4/6

 

 

http://sports.williamhill.com/bet/en-gb/betting/g/348569/Total-Party-Seats-Over+Under.html

[JamboX2]

There's nothing inherently wrong with coalition government. Germany, which I think has an almost identical voting system to Holyrood, is more or less accustomed to the idea. It has produced some strange alliances - none stranger than the current arrangement - but they appear to work.

Charles Kennedy has just been on TV bemoaning the disenfranchising of the hundreds of thousands of Scots who will vote Tory on Thursday. While I'd have been blinking hard if I'd heard him expressing precisely those sentiments during the last Westminster campaign, he's right.

It's close. Less seats and more on the list. But I'd move away from that. The SNP have a majority on a minority of the vote.

 

Personally I think STV or regional lists would be the best bet. Works in NI and at local level for Scotland. Ireland is doing ok on STV and looking at regional lists, I don't think Norway, the Netherlands and Finland are on the verge of collapse.

 

But it'd be the most palatable in the UK to use a mixed system like Germany, New Zeland and Wales and Scotland. In fact Blairs commission in 1999 suggested it.

 

I saw Kennedy too there. His point was on the legitimacy issue Sturgeon was raising. She is claiming an illegitimacy of no Scots in government or no Scots influencing government. But she forgets there'll still be significant numbers of Scots who won't have backed the SNP vision and direction for Scotland. Many will vote Labour, Tory, LibDem and Green and not have their voice heard. So where's the legitimacy of an SNP super majority?

 

Spoken like a true advocate of a fairer electoral system!

 

4% of the UK vote and 50 seats, whilst others hit 10% and get two... The argument for PR is being made in this election.

[Guest Trapper John]

'Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.' - Charles De Gaulle

 

[JamboX2]

It's hilarious how proponents of FPTP (the Tories) are upset that the outcome and constitution is in principle against them!

 

Politically there are issues of perception and popularity. And a huge one around a lack of clarity here on the constitution. And also on the stability of that government and the likelihood of a second election in a year or two.

 

BUT I still like seeing the Tories who've historically opposed all and any reform to the system of elections having a breakdown over all this.

[steve444]

 

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/labour-defends-rally-men-women-5640059

Edited May 5, 2015 by steve444

[leginten]

It's close. Less seats and more on the list. But I'd move away from that. The SNP have a majority on a minority of the vote.

Personally I think STV or regional lists would be the best bet. Works in NI and at local level for Scotland. Ireland is doing ok on STV and looking at regional lists, I don't think Norway, the Netherlands and Finland are on the verge of collapse.

But it'd be the most palatable in the UK to use a mixed system like Germany, New Zeland and Wales and Scotland. In fact Blairs commission in 1999 suggested it.

I saw Kennedy too there. His point was on the legitimacy issue Sturgeon was raising. She is claiming an illegitimacy of no Scots in government or no Scots influencing government. But she forgets there'll still be significant numbers of Scots who won't have backed the SNP vision and direction for Scotland. Many will vote Labour, Tory, LibDem and Green and not have their voice heard. So where's the legitimacy of an SNP super majority?

Spoken like a true advocate of a fairer electoral system!

4% of the UK vote and 50 seats, whilst others hit 10% and get two... The argument for PR is being made in this election.

I think she's claiming that any attempt to freeze out a party which will take the bulk of the seats in Scotland - regardless of the dodgy electoral system which produces that result - will be very damaging. And I think that, despite all the bluster, Miliband in particular will know that.

 

On your last sentence, it's quite sad that the argument for PR is only coming to the fore because it's the SNP that stands to benefit this time. It will be interesting to see the reaction from down south if 40+ SNP MPs are elected. There's already a whiff of something slightly unpleasant emerging from this whole subject of the electoral system.

[luckydug]

 

'Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.' - Charles De Gaulle

 

 

The only hate that I see is coming from people like yourself.

Over 50% of the electorate in Scotland appear to be voting SNP. Are you really trying to say all these people hate other Nationalities.

You would do better to ask yourself why people are switching to SNP .

[GBJambo]

The only hate that I see is coming from people like yourself.

Over 50% of the electorate in Scotland appear to be voting SNP. Are you really trying to say all these people hate other Nationalities.

You would do better to ask yourself why people are switching to SNP .

The snp won't poll over 50% off the vote

[JamboX2]

I think she's claiming that any attempt to freeze out a party which will take the bulk of the seats in Scotland - regardless of the dodgy electoral system which produces that result - will be very damaging. And I think that, despite all the bluster, Miliband in particular will know that.

On your last sentence, it's quite sad that the argument for PR is only coming to the fore because it's the SNP that stands to benefit this time. It will be interesting to see the reaction from down south if 40+ SNP MPs are elected. There's already a whiff of something slightly unpleasant emerging from this whole subject of the electoral system.

I don't agree. Sorry. Northern Ireland opts to vote for Northern Irish parties. They never form the government and they never really exert too much influence. Therefore, is every UK government illegitimate in Northern Ireland?

 

No. Because it's a UK wide election, whereby the UK electorate as a whole makes its mind up and we get a UK government on the back of it. If Scotland chooses to vote nationalistically like Northern Ireland and not for UK wide parties then that loss of governing influence is a consequence.

 

Interestingly if Labour held most of their seats (say 30) on current polls they'd be ahead of the Tories. Also, the SNP might be a prop for Labour but they're a poor one. The Labour Party would need Green, SDLP and Plaid backing too. So it's a shakes alliance at best.

 

The example was used to highlight how archaic the system is. Not to do down the SNP. It's a crap system if we have a multiparty democracy. As a result it should go. Yes it'll harm the SNP. But it'll benefit the people over parties and rid us of incumbency complacency. Two things that have been held up as failures of Scottish politics under Labour would go.

 

A missed chance for Labour is its failure to embrace electoral reform. I honestly think we need to change that mindset going forward.

[Maple Leaf]

As election day approaches, I wish to politely remind everyone of a couple of things.

 

For the most part, the admin team has let this thread run.  Out of almost 8,000 posts, only a handful of off-topic posts have been removed.

 

But we still have rules, and here are two that are particularly relevant:

 

1. Always treat fellow members with respect and courtesy. Abuse is not permitted.
16. No trolling. Trolling is the act of posting with the explicit and sole intent of annoying other members

 

After the election there will be hard feelings, but please post within the rules.  Members who break the rules create unnecessary work for me, and doing unnecessary work stops me from being my usual cheerful self. 

 

I know I can count on your cooperation and support.  My grandchildren hate when I'm grumpy, so if you can't do it for me, do it for them. 

 

Thanks.  FTH.

[leginten]

.

Edited May 5, 2015 by leginten

[luckydug]

It's close. Less seats and more on the list. But I'd move away from that. The SNP have a majority on a minority of the vote.

 

Personally I think STV or regional lists would be the best bet. Works in NI and at local level for Scotland. Ireland is doing ok on STV and looking at regional lists, I don't think Norway, the Netherlands and Finland are on the verge of collapse.

 

But it'd be the most palatable in the UK to use a mixed system like Germany, New Zeland and Wales and Scotland. In fact Blairs commission in 1999 suggested it.

 

I saw Kennedy too there. His point was on the legitimacy issue Sturgeon was raising. She is claiming an illegitimacy of no Scots in government or no Scots influencing government. But she forgets there'll still be significant numbers of Scots who won't have backed the SNP vision and direction for Scotland. Many will vote Labour, Tory, LibDem and Green and not have their voice heard. So where's the legitimacy of an SNP super majority?

 

Spoken like a true advocate of a fairer electoral system!

 

4% of the UK vote and 50 seats, whilst others hit 10% and get two... The argument for PR is being made in this election.

 

I'm sure the argument was equally strong in the past only it was Labour who benefited then.

[JamboX2]

I'm sure the argument was equally strong in the past only it was Labour who benefited then.

Not really because that reflected in the UK wide Labour vote of 30-40%. The SNP are getting 50 seats on 4% of the vote in the context of a UK wide election.

 

However, read that into what you want. I'm pretty consistent on arguing for electoral reform and tbh, it'll empower smaller parties at the expense of the one I support. Then again, I'm a democrat before Labour so somethings take priority over others I suppose.

 

I'd rather see a succession of minority and coalition governments than a series of huge complacent majorities. Because Nicola is right, minority and coalition governments do create better laws because they have the really work hard to get them passed. And that closer scrutiny and attention to detail produces better laws and policies and also produces long term thinking as it's based on consensual politics.

 

And that's good for everyone.