Geoff Kilpatrick Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Here are my thoughts on "suicide bombings". The condemnation of suicide bombings is based upon the supposition that innocent civilians or non combatants as someone called them earlier are unjustly murdered. If a Palestinian blows himself up in a restaurant in Tel Aviv and kills a young couple in their twenties the general consensus would be that the couple had no part to play in the bombardment and siege of The Gaza Strip and should therefore be left alone. There is an argument to be made. The Israeli Government and by extension the Israeli Defence Forces are not a private organisation. They are elected, funded, comprised of and operate purely on the behest of Israeli citizens. If you are a citizen of Israel you elect the politicians that send the IDF to Palestine. If you are an Israeli citizen your taxes pay for the F16's, Apache Helicopters and Hellfire missiles that go with it. In short they are in fact the ones who are complicit in committing the crimes. As such it is hard to complain when the people you are terrorising fight back. With the inability to strike the IDF in the absence of any military hardware the Palestinians resorted to blowing themselves up or sending home made rockets into Israel itself as a last recourse. As we have all seen from the last few weeks the Israeli Defence Force itself has no objections to killing "innocent civilians" in the course of carrying out its military aims. Why should the Palestinians be held to a higher standard? So there are no such things as terrorists and victims are collateral damage brought on by the actions of others. You are Gerry Adams and I claim ?5! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moogsy Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Here are my thoughts on "suicide bombings". The condemnation of suicide bombings is based upon the supposition that innocent civilians or non combatants as someone called them earlier are unjustly murdered. If a Palestinian blows himself up in a restaurant in Tel Aviv and kills a young couple in their twenties the general consensus would be that the couple had no part to play in the bombardment and siege of The Gaza Strip and should therefore be left alone. There is an argument to be made. The Israeli Government and by extension the Israeli Defence Forces are not a private organisation. They are elected, funded, comprised of and operate purely on the behest of Israeli citizens. If you are a citizen of Israel you elect the politicians that send the IDF to Palestine. If you are an Israeli citizen your taxes pay for the F16's, Apache Helicopters and Hellfire missiles that go with it. In short they are in fact the ones who are complicit in committing the crimes. As such it is hard to complain when the people you are terrorising fight back. With the inability to strike the IDF in the absence of any military hardware the Palestinians resorted to blowing themselves up or sending home made rockets into Israel itself as a last recourse. As we have all seen from the last few weeks the Israeli Defence Force itself has no objections to killing "innocent civilians" in the course of carrying out its military aims. Why should the Palestinians be held to a higher standard? So you think suicide bombings are a legitimate form of resistance. Cool, think I'll leave it there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djf Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/israels-other-war A read on Israel's militarism and it's inherent major flaw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt84 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 So you think suicide bombings are a legitimate form of resistance. Cool, think I'll leave it there. In the absence of military hardware it's an understandable form of resistance from a population that feels helpless. Not an action I personally would engage in or feel comfartable encouraging others to commit but then again I have never seen my family blown to bits in my own home. I can only assume that your grievance is the fact that as you see it innocent civilians are killed. The only answer I have unfortunately is that's war. It's a bit rich to attack a group of people with the full might of your armed forces and then cry foul when they have the audacity to fight back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Murray Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 A reply from the Israeli Embassy in Dublin after a letter from Sinn Fein members of Dublin City Council http://itsstillonlyt...onal-sinn-fein/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Murray Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 In the absence of military hardware it's an understandable form of resistance from a population that feels helpless. Not an action I personally would engage in or feel comfartable encouraging others to commit but then again I have never seen my family blown to bits in my own home. I can only assume that your grievance is the fact that as you see it innocent civilians are killed. The only answer I have unfortunately is that's war. It's a bit rich to attack a group of people with the full might of your armed forces and then cry foul when they have the audacity to fight back. So if you had seen your family or loved ones blown up on a bus, at a wedding or in the local shopping mall, would you expect your goverment to use the full might at their disposal to make sure such atrocities never happened again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt84 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 So if you had seen your family or loved ones blown up on a bus, at a wedding or in the local shopping mall, would you expect your goverment to use the full might at their disposal to make sure such atrocities never happened again? Well that's the chicken and the egg isn't it. What came first? You clearly believe that Israel is reacting to Hamas rocket attacks and suicide bombings and I believe it's the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moogsy Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 In the absence of military hardware it's an understandable form of resistance from a population that feels helpless. Not an action I personally would engage in or feel comfartable encouraging others to commit but then again I have never seen my family blown to bits in my own home. I can only assume that your grievance is the fact that as you see it innocent civilians are killed. The only answer I have unfortunately is that's war. It's a bit rich to attack a group of people with the full might of your armed forces and then cry foul when they have the audacity to fight back. The exact excuse Israel would use when bombing residential areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt84 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 The exact excuse Israel would use when bombing residential areas. The difference is Israel is the aggressor. It is Israel that initiates these conflicts. They occupy Palestinian land, control every facet of Palestinian life and routinely murder Palestinians with impunity. When the Palestinians fight back they are castigated and labeled terrorists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Well that's the chicken and the egg isn't it. What came first? You clearly believe that Israel is reacting to Hamas rocket attacks and suicide bombings and I believe it's the other way around. Does it really matter what came first? What most people want is for violence to stop. However, in your binary pro-Palestinian world, the Israelis are the epitome of evil and therefore you are creating a narrative which justifies any Palestinian action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Murray Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 The difference is Israel is the aggressor. It is Israel that initiates these conflicts. They occupy Palestinian land, control every facet of Palestinian life and routinely murder Palestinians with impunity. When the Palestinians fight back they are castigated and labeled terrorists. The reason they control every facet of Palestinian life is to stop a return to the almost daily use of suicide bombers from day's gone past Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 The reason they control every facet of Palestinian life is to stop a return to the almost daily use of suicide bombers from day's gone past ....and the reason suicide bombers carried out these terrible acts? A bad morning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Benoit Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 The difference is Israel is the aggressor. It is Israel that initiates these conflicts. They occupy Palestinian land, control every facet of Palestinian life and routinely murder Palestinians with impunity. When the Palestinians fight back they are castigated and labeled terrorists. I've agreed with pretty much all you've posted until now but can't disagree with this more. Targeting civilians on either side is reprehensible and cannot ever be condoned or excused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt84 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 I've agreed with pretty much all you've posted until now but can't disagree with this more. Targeting civilians on either side is reprehensible and cannot ever be condoned or excused. I can't fault you for that as its a very difficult argument to try and defend. One that I'm not entirely sure how to go about. I simply feel uncomfortable pointing the finger of blame at Palestinians when I feel they are acting purely in self defence. Were Palestinians to start blowing themselves up in cafes in Sweden or Japan I would obviously be outraged as it would be an attack without provocation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt84 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Correct me if I'm wrong but did the United Kingdom not engage in the bombing of civilian areas in Germany during World War Two? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moogsy Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 I can't fault you for that as its a very difficult argument to try and defend. One that I'm not entirely sure how to go about. I simply feel uncomfortable pointing the finger of blame at Palestinians when I feel they are acting purely in self defence. Were Palestinians to start blowing themselves up in cafes in Sweden or Japan I would obviously be outraged as it would be an attack without provocation. Did you think the IRA were justified in detonating bombs in areas populated by civilians? Hypothetically speaking, do you think the Iraqi resistance would have been justified in blowing themselves up on UK soil in areas populated by civilians? Going by your logic the British public voted for and financed the government that invaded their country so I'd have to surmise that you wouldn't view it as unjust? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Correct me if I'm wrong but did the United Kingdom not engage in the bombing of civilian areas in Germany during World War Two? Yes they did. And your moral equivalence is what, precisely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt84 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Yes they did. And your moral equivalence is what, precisely? Do you think the Citizens of the United Kingdom found it acceptable at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Do you think the Citizens of the United Kingdom found it acceptable at the time. I would say that the vast majority of the citizens of the UK didn't know or care what the bombs were doing precisely. They were just glad that Germany was being bombed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt84 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 I would say that the vast majority of the citizens of the UK didn't know or care what the bombs were doing precisely. They were just glad that Germany was being bombed. Exactly. They were happy or glad as you put it "innocent civilians" were being murdered. Why? Because those very same innocent civilians were waging war on them. The point I'm attempting to make is that our opinions of what is abhorrent or morally right or wrong alter depending on our circumstances. 70 years ago Brits felt justified in bombing civilian areas. Today they would probably balk at the idea as they no longer feel threatened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Exactly. They were happy or glad as you put it "innocent civilians" were being murdered. Why? Because those very same innocent civilians were waging war on them. The point I'm attempting to make is that our opinions of what is abhorrent or morally right or wrong alter depending on our circumstances. 70 years ago Brits felt justified in bombing civilian areas. Today they would probably balk at the idea as they no longer feel threatened. So in your view both Israelis and Palestinians are fair game? By that logic, if Israel decided to liquidate Gaza and the West Bank they would be fully justified! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Did you think the IRA were justified in detonating bombs in areas populated by civilians? Hypothetically speaking, do you think the Iraqi resistance would have been justified in blowing themselves up on UK soil in areas populated by civilians? Going by your logic the British public voted for and financed the government that invaded their country so I'd have to surmise that you wouldn't view it as unjust? Keeping it in context,you could say The Stern Gang were justified in killing British ministers in Israel? Which they did! I think we can all agree that it is a big,FO mess! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C00l K1d Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Excuse my ignorance, but why has this suddenly all kicked off again? This has been going on for years, how come it's suddenly all over the news and folk seem to be taking a massive interest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Excuse my ignorance, but why has this suddenly all kicked off again? This has been going on for years, how come it's suddenly all over the news and folk seem to be taking a massive interest? It escalated after the kidnappings, which were newsworthy. Firing rockets and applying siege conditions wasn't deemed newsworthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
super_vlad Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 It escalated after the kidnappings, which were newsworthy. Firing rockets and applying siege conditions wasn't deemed newsworthy. No rockets were fired for 18 months Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 No rockets were fired for 18 months Fair enough. The point still stands though that the conflict was out of the media's consciousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMaganator Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 A YouTube video of an interview with one of the sons of a founding member of Hamas. He rejected their teachings and converted to Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidelight Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 ?No rockets fired in 18 months? That statement is simply not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moogsy Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 No rockets were fired for 18 months Nonsense. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Benoit Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I think he's mistaking no rockets fired by Hamas with no rockets fired from Palestine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djf Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 A small number of rockets were fired from Palestinian territory against the wishes of Hamas who attempted to prevent this. Some argue they could have been more forceful in their preventive methods but obviously they are walking an incredible delicate line in attempting to police Palestinian militant groups when Israel are continuing to blockade the area, demolish homes and further encroach on Palestinian territory with illegal settlements. Unfortunately criminality will be prevalent in any area that is subject to the conditions placed on the Palestinian people. Whatever your view of the conflict it is obvious that the only way for progress and the end of mass killings is for Israel to agree to concessions regarding the economic blockade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Hamas lack any Command and Control system to run it's rocket force. It's all terrorist cells operating with a lot of independence. It's hard to enforce cease fires on their part and have all members running off the same script. Israel on the other hand can stop and go in minutes. They need to be longer ceasefires to ensure they are adhered to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djf Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Speaking of ceasefires - 85.6% of Israeli's oppose prospect of ceasefire http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Poll-865-percent-of-Israelis-oppose-cease-fire-369064 Effectively without meaningful international intervention this conflict will not end any time soon. Israeli public opinion is so far to the right that Netanyahu can either choose further attacks or political destruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Worth a read. How Obama and Kerry wanted to use President Peres to push Netanyahu to work with Abbas and how it has now been lost... http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118751/how-israel-palestine-peace-deal-died Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maroonlegions Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Says it all really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Says it all really. If humanity had failed, then there wouldn't be any protests, would there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 The difference is Israel is the aggressor. It is Israel that initiates these conflicts. They occupy Palestinian land, control every facet of Palestinian life and routinely murder Palestinians with impunity. When the Palestinians fight back they are castigated and labeled terrorists. Correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 So another thing. Israel is deemed to be occupying Gaza and the other Arab areas as it controls entry (hence the tunnels). UN "law" says occupiers are responsible for safety of citizens. Suppose bombing and killing them is to make them safer under Israeli PR. Arab world getting angrier. Won't end well for Israel or its supporters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Speaking of ceasefires - 85.6% of Israeli's oppose prospect of ceasefire http://www.jpost.com...ase-fire-369064 Effectively without meaningful international intervention this conflict will not end any time soon. Israeli public opinion is so far to the right that Netanyahu can either choose further attacks or political destruction. I don't necessarily doubt the gist of the findings but I'd question how robust that poll is. 504 respondents for a Jewish Israeli population of 6.1 million or thereabouts...? I've found this thread really interesting by the way, great level of debate...mostly.. matt84's contributions have been especially strong, thanks for taking the time to set out your arguments so well. Really appreciated that. Great reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zibi Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 The sooner the Zionist colonial savages leave Palestine the better. Sadly I can't see it happening until the world standing of the US declines much further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alwaysthereinspirit Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 The sooner the Zionist colonial savages leave Palestine the better. Sadly I can't see it happening until the world standing of the US declines much further. Better for whom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maroonlegions Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maroonlegions Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 How far is this war crime going to go on, yes there will be a cease fire like all the one before and then it will start again but this time they have crossed the line ,the number of children killed has now made this butchery a genocidal insanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alwaysthereinspirit Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 How far is this war crime going to go on, yes there will be a cease fire like all the one before and then it will start again but this time they have crossed the line ,the number of children killed has now made this butchery a genocidal insanity. You really want to go with Genocide or Genocidal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 How far is this war crime going to go on, yes there will be a cease fire like all the one before and then it will start again but this time they have crossed the line ,the number of children killed has now made this butchery a genocidal insanity. I don't like death and destruction. The explosion in the picture most probably was a direct hit on a rocket launcher or other weapon containing fuel hence the fire ball. A very dramatic picture indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fourcandles Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 You really want to go with Genocide or Genocidal? When you see the size of that plume of flame against the block of flats you realise the size of munitions that are being used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I don't like death and destruction. The explosion in the picture most probably was a direct hit on a rocket launcher or other weapon containing fuel hence the fire ball. A very dramatic picture indeed. This is tongue in cheek,aye? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alwaysthereinspirit Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 When you see the size of that plume of flame against the block of flats you realise the size of munitions that are being used. That certainly is a lot of smoke. What was the address of this explosion. I cant tell from the photo of the exact distance the explosion is from the building in the foreground. I cant even tell where this explosion happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 This is tongue in cheek,aye? No. It's an observation of the reaction that's taken place as a result of a bomb or shell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphonseCapone Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Is it accurate there has never been an independent Palestinian state in history and has always been under the control of other powers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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