Cade Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 So it turns out that the "kidnapped" soldier actually died in action BEFORE the ceasefire took hold. Israel broke the ceasefire simply because he was still MIA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Israel killed their own kidnapped soldier it seems from reports trying to get the kidnap gang. Along with 100+ Gaza residents in revenge. An another UN school hit. Like their revenge it seems Israeli government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malinga the Swinga Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 The yanks are still sending them weapons FFS. Only a proper, South Africa-style boycott, arms embargo and financial sanctions will constrain the Zionists. Do you get special trendy left wing points for saying Zionist now instead of Israelis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2NaFish Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Do you get special trendy left wing points for saying Zionist now instead of Israelis? maybe he's just mindful of the fact that there's a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 maybe he's just mindful of the fact that there's a difference. Nah, he is just a sandal wearer with an unhealthy obsession for lentils. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2NaFish Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Nah, he is just a sandal wearer with an unhealthy obsession for lentils. It can be both. More lentilists and less zionist child murderers and the world would be a better place. Think about it, yeah? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 The article JamboX2 posted up a few pages back is an excellent insight into American efforts to try and bring about a peace deal in the lead up to the current conflict. Everyone should have a read. Cheers. It was an eye opener to me. Shows that the old adage about soft power working when you see little action to be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djf Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/does-this-war-make-me-look-fat/ http://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-starvation-diet-gaza/11810 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Sausage Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Neither of them want peace. They both want to wipe each other of the face of the planet. They're both dickheads. This. In spades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djf Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/concentrate-and-exterminate-israel-parliament-deputy-speakers-gaza-genocide-plan In a 1 August posting on his Facebook page, Feiglin, a member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu?s ruling Likud Party, calls for the ?conquest of the entire Gaza Strip, and annihilation of all fighting forces and their supporters.??This is our country ? our country exclusively,? he writes, ?including Gaza.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alwaysthereinspirit Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/concentrate-and-exterminate-israel-parliament-deputy-speakers-gaza-genocide-plan [/size][/font][/color] Do you know if this is real? Reason being is that anyone posting this on their Facebook page and in his position would have to be mentally incompetent to stand trial. Facebook? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXX Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 If Hamas started lobbing rockets at Egypt it would be all over the news and the internet and would mark the real beginning of the end of Hamas. Hamas has NOTHING to gain from attacking Egypt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr-sad Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 This thread ain't a patch on what they have over the road on sisterfisters "Holy Ground", already seems to be one "left by mutual consent" through it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missed98 Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 For those of you interested, this video is a cracker. Warning it's 70 minutes long. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=etXAm-OylQQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossthejambo Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Israel killed their own kidnapped soldier it seems from reports trying to get the kidnap gang. Along with 100+ Gaza residents in revenge. An another UN school hit. Like their revenge it seems Israeli government. Seems to be an awful lot of silence from people condemning Hamas for breaking the ceasefire since this came to light... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Guns Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Could DJF be any bigger a terrorist sympathiser? Incredible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real Maroonblood Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Could DJF be any bigger a freedom fighter sympathiser? Incredible. FTFY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMaganator Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/picking-a-side-in-israel-palestine_b_5602701.html "7 Things to Consider Before Choosing Sides in the Middle East Conflict" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/picking-a-side-in-israel-palestine_b_5602701.html "7 Things to Consider Before Choosing Sides in the Middle East Conflict" Choose neither and hope they both lose until they see sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djf Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Do you know if this is real? Reason being is that anyone posting this on their Facebook page and in his position would have to be mentally incompetent to stand trial. Facebook? He's made similar statements in the past. There's plenty of moderate voices in current Israeli politics but unfortunately they're being drowned out by hard line majority right. Nobody would dream of censuring any of those comments for fear of being branded a terrorist sympathiser. It's one of the main reasons why things will be getting worse before they, if ever, get better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/does-this-war-make-me-look-fat/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB52 Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Could DJF be any bigger a terrorist sympathiser? Incredible. could sten guns be any bigger a genocide sympathiser? Incredible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2NaFish Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 http://blogs.timesof...ke-me-look-fat/ it's not satire. jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB52 Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Why did Hamas break the ceasefire? After 3 hours? And then kidnap a soldier? These aren't the actions of a group that want peace they didn't they didn't they didn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djf Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/04/gaza-israeli-soldiers-shoot-and-kill-fleeing-civilians Human Rights Watch cover Palestinian statements on the killing of innocent civilians in Khuza'a. Akram al-Najjar said that soldiers allowed him to leave the area on the afternoon of July 23, in a separate group of 16 boys and young men, and that the group came under fire after they had reached the Tawhid mosque, in the northwestern part of Khuza?a:The youngest boy in my group was 14 and the oldest one was 19 years old. We had walked from the dunes and had reached the mosque. We got 50 meters past it, and soldiers started shooting at us. The shooting injured three of us. One of them died. He was shot in the stomach. He said he did not know the name of the young man who had been killed, but that no one in the group was carrying a weapon. He said there were no Palestinian fighters near his group, and that he did not see or hear any exchanges of fire between Israeli ground forces and Palestinian fighters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/does-this-war-make-me-look-fat/ "Fat narcissistic ****" Think that just abou covers it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Draper Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hearts151 Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/does-this-war-make-me-look-fat/ Damn. Been removed. Pretty bad aye? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Damn. Been removed. Pretty bad aye? Some Israeli woman saying how bad the war is because it makes her comfort eat and get fat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Draper Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/05/gaza-arms-embargo-alex-salmond_n_5650417.html?1407243916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 http://www.huffingto...html?1407243916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maroonlegions Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 The article JamboX2 posted up a few pages back is an excellent insight into American efforts to try and bring about a peace deal in the lead up to the current conflict. Everyone should have a read. Remain sceptical but the USA will continue to sell arms to Israel like the UK to, kinda speaks volumes for their desire for peace i feel but the spin doctors will justify it soon. lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maroonlegions Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 seconded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maroonlegions Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 The article JamboX2 posted up a few pages back is an excellent insight into American efforts to try and bring about a peace deal in the lead up to the current conflict. Everyone should have a read. Sorry nothing personal but feck me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maroonlegions Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Desperation and acts of desperation, hopefully it remains a peaceful protest. http://londonpalestineaction.tumblr.com/post/93853399864/uk-activists-shut-down-israeli-arms-factory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maroonlegions Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Very interesting article on the usage of human shields, seems that Israel was at it to. Israeli High Court: Israeli Soldiers Used Palestinians as Human Shields 1,200 Times http://investmentwatchblog.com/israeli-high-court-israeli-soldiers-used-palestinians-as-human-shields-1200-times/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimUpNorth Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 The US will continue arming Israel as they're their main ally in the region, doesn't mean they don't want a two state solution and peace. Same way Russia arms Syria but calls for a ceasefire of the civil war. Looks hypocritical of course. They both want a strong well armed Israel/Syria. I don't ever remember relations between the US and Israel as bad as they have been recently, publicly at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Burgundy Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Very interesting article on the usage of human shields, seems that Israel was at it to. Israeli High Court: Israeli Soldiers Used Palestinians as Human Shields 1,200 Times http://investmentwatchblog.com/israeli-high-court-israeli-soldiers-used-palestinians-as-human-shields-1200-times/ It doesn't really look like the soldiers hiding behind him and using him as a shield though does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malinga the Swinga Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 The Huffington Post is a good article that sums up things pretty nicely. Actions by people like Morsi stand out as being attention grabbing publicity attempts to boost their own image, but will in all likelihood achieve nothing for the cause they are supposed to be trying to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXX Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Fact is though that it is Hamas run Gaza as they were elected by the people. The tunnels were also used to smuggle methamphetamines as parts of Gaza has serious drugs issues (I suppose Israel are blame for that to). Egypt has been destroying the tunnels at their side because they don't want Hamas militants bolstering the Muslim Brotherhood and Jordan does't want refugees as they don't see it as their problem, maybe because the PLO tried to take over and kill their king. Allow the UN to inspect ships as it's been shown Iran is sending missiles to Gaza through the port. Gaza is a very small part of the 1947 mandate and is the currently the only area which firing rockets, I wonder does that have something to do with Hamas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2NaFish Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 It doesn't really look like the soldiers hiding behind him and using him as a shield though does it? There's more to a shield than simply thrusting someone directly in front of you a la the end to a bad action movie. Given the position of the person in the blindfold, you'd need to be a certain shot to be sure of hitting the soldier and you'd be unable to use anything with a blast radius. I'm fairly sure that picture constitutes a human shield under the articles of war, assuming that the 'shield' was actually positioned there (which is a pretty reasonable assessment). I've not read the link provided so couldn't comment upon it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djf Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Regarding the HuffPro article here's an excellent deconstruction of the piece from elsewhere online. Quoting in full and strongly recommend all who have read the original HuffPro piece to read in interests of balance even if you likely disagree with some. Okay, very well, here's my takedown of this Huff Post article that we've seen a lot. Before I start, keep in mind that English is not my first language, so if you find mistakes or stuff that isn't worded correctly, feel free to tell me. 1) "Why is everything so much worse when there are Jews involved?" It is not because Jews are involved in this conflict that the situation is worse than elsewhere, but because of a combination of factors. To ask "Why is everything so much worse when there are Jews involved?" is to imply that there is a fundamentally antisemitic element to people's criticism of Israel, which is an accusation that is starting to get old. The reasons for which many people - and the media - talk a lot about I/P are as follows: a) The fact that the I/P conflict has been lasting for several decades, and that for all this time the Palestinians' plight has known little amelioration. Israel has been implementing colonialist policies, which is something that the Western (European) public has learned to detest after the end of our own colonial adventures, whereas the other dictators and mass-murderers mentioned in the article have not. c) Israel benefits from a more or less unconditional support from European and American leaders (as shown for instance here :http://mondoweiss.ne...ng-inquiry.html or here : http://www.israelnat...21#.U94VvCcbOPY), which is not the case for Assad, IS, and so on, which leads the populations of these countries who are sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinian people to vocally break away from their governments' support of Israel. and d) Israel has a pretty well established propaganda policy that aims at defending the toll of its military operations and its policies regarding Palestine, a policy that is often pretty vile in its whitewashing of war crimes and as such it is to be countered. That is why there are many pro-Palestinian advocacy groups who try to counter Israel's own advocacy. In my opinion, while trying to conquer public opinion is not a bad thing at all, whitewashing or relativizing extremely concerning practices is not acceptable and should be fought against. I'll add that the paragraph starting with "Amazingly..." is factually completely wrong. The large majority of pictures of bloody or dead kids that are broadcast in the media are absolutely not from the Syrian conflict. I have even seen images of pro-Israeli propaganda showing images of children playing around a rocket launcher that were themselves from the Syrian civil war (http://i.imgur.com/YgGDvgf.jpg) so thanks but no thanks for the lesson. The answer to the question in the paragraph starting by "Here is a question for those..." is given by many Hamas leaders. The most recent one I could find was Khaled Meshaal's, in this segment from CBS News' Face the Nation (transcription included in the following link: http://www.cbsnews.c...ogers-albright/). This one is quite recent as well: http://www.timesofis...k-leader-says/. To impute Hamas with the intention of wanting to go to war at all costs, to imply that they have genocidal intentions is an aberration; Hamas' current objective is to achieve the end of the occupation of Palestine. For more information of Hamas' proposals for long-standing truces and peace, should the occupation stop, here is a very good study:http://file.prio.no/...s/Prio/Tuastad(2010)%20Hamas%20Concept%20of%20a%20Long-term%20Ceasefire%20(PRIO%20Paper).pdf I'd like to add that trying to induce fear by invoking Israel's neighbors is pretty dishonest, when Egypt has never been so friendly to Israel as it is being these past few years (and Egypt has not been at war with srael for over 30 years), or when Saudi Arabia has not demonstrated any bellicose intentions towards Israel for even longer than that. In fact, the Arab Peace Initiative that was already twoce adopted unanimously by the members of the Arab League shows that a peaceful resolution of the conflict that would abide by international law would go a long way towards normalizing the relationship between Arab countries and Israel. Finally, it remains that even if Palestinians and other Arab peoples in the region were viscerally antisemitic, and even if peace and a respect of the Palestinans' right to self-determination with the establishment of an independant Palestinian state did not have an impact on antisemitism in the region, even a militarized state of Palestine would not represent a real threat to Israel. Let's be honest for a moment. Racism and anti-semitism are extremely problematic in this conflict - but hatred of the Other is at least as pervasive in Israel as it is in Palestine, and highlighting the hatred of Jews in Gaza without mentioning the hatred of Arabs in Israel is dishonest. So that's why the author's question/answer #1 is a complete diversion, adorned with a few lies. 2) "Why does everyone keep saying this is not a religious conflict?" Of course zionism has a religious basis, but that does not change anything to the fact that one can be opposed to zionism because it is a form of nationalism, and not because one dislikes Jews. Even moreso in the current instance, since it is a nationalism that is applied at the expense of a population that has the exact same right to self-determination as the Jewish people. We ought to look at zionism as it is being theorized and practiced by Israel and its leaders: for instance, in Likud's most recent platform (http://www.dailykos....-Party-Platform - and I'm not even talking about the 1977 Likud constitution which absolutely denied the possibility of another state than Israel on the territory of Mandatory Palestine: https://www.jewishvi...udPlat1977.html) or in the recent declarations by many Israeli politicians in Netanyahu's coalition (for instance: http://www.israelnat...26#.U9kh9CcbOPZ). This brand of zionism bases its claims on religious grounds, and as such it has no legitimacy in our current world where the only legitimacy given to national claims derives from the peoples' right to self-determination. As for the second argument raised in this answer #2, I'm not about to engage in any sort of game of ping-pong to find out whose religion has the most references to genocide of other peoples - that's an absurd game and the only thing I would achieve would be to prove that all these religious texts are the product of a far-away past, and ought to be treated as such. It is not religion or civilization that is the primary source of the Palestinans' hostility towards Israel or the Jews. Indeed, as I said earlier, Hamas leaders openly admit that it is not cohabitation with the Jews that is a problem. Mentioning obsolete texts such as Hamas' ancient covenant, which leaders such as Khaled Meshaal have dismissed and which is no longer part of Hamas' official literature is pretty dishonest. People should look at their latest literature, their latest declarations, or their electoral platform in order to really ascertain what their ideoology is, and what their demands are: http://www.theguardi.../jan/12/israel. So that's why the author's question/answer #2 is a complete diversion. 3) "Why would Israel deliberately want to kill civilians?" The question asked by the author here is quite logical on its surface: since killing civilians causes image problems to Israel, why would Israel voluntary kill civilians? The question is asked as if it were rhetorical, and yet there are several other answers than "But that's impossible!", which is implied by the article. Several concomitant strategies by different actors could explain the murder of Palestinian civilians: a) The first is a government strategy, whose aim is to break the Palestinians' will to revolt, in accordance with the idea that if one exacts an intolerable price to revolt, then there will be no revolt. That principle is at the heart of the concept of collective punishment, and that's nothing new or proper to Israel. Killing civilians - not every possible civilian, but killing some civilians - or at least not caring whether or not there are civilians during a military operation in Gaza would pertain to this strategy to the same extent as the use of Skunk in the West Bank (http://www.richardsi...izes-west-bank/), or the blockade on Gaza. And a UN report (http://www2.ohchr.or...A-HRC-12-48.pdf) mentions the implementation by Israel in Lebanon of what it calls the Dahiya doctrine, which is exactly that. The second strategy is more complex, it is linked to IDF military practices. The "We were caught unprepared" report (http://www.dtic.mil/...oc?AD=ADA477851), which is mainly about the 2006 war against Hizbullah in Lebanon but also mentions the Palestinians, exposes practices aiming at instilling a "consciousness of defeat" among the population, which could be achieved by killing civilians disproportionately. c) The third strategy would be individual, on the level of IDF soldiers themselves, who have been shown to having killed Palestinan civilians in the name of vengeance, or to take out their frustration at losing their fellow soldiers (see the bottom of the article at http://mondoweiss.ne...-civilians.html) The author of this article seems to believe, in the last paragraph, that the only reason that one could invoke for which Israel would want to kill civilians would be a mere desire to kill civilians. That's not the case. But from the fat that Israel does not kill EVERY civilian in Gaza, it does not follow that Israel or the IDF does not deliberately kill civilians. In any case Israel does not own up to these strategies, and that is why it produces a lot of propaganda in order to either whitewash or relativize the fact that far too many civilians are killed. Israel has found another way to counter the stain to its image caused by the deaths of civilians: its immense PR effort. So that's why the author's question/answer #3 is a diversion, and it is falsely na?ve. 4) "Does Hamas really use its own civilians as human shields?" Ah, human shields. This is an accusation that is leveled at Hamas by Israel all the time, and it has ingrained itself into the collective unconscious. And it's quite grating, to be honest. I'd like to question something that is almost axiomatic in the public discourse, that is that Hamas uses human shields. And here I am asking you: have you ever seen any evidence - not accusations, not claims, concrete evidence - that Hamas uses Human shields? For starters, here is a document by Amnesty International that investigates these claims in its chapter 4.2.2:http://www.amnesty.o...50152009en.pdf. The document raises a few questions - first, what is the definition of a "human shield"? Hamas does indeed fire rockets from civilian areas, but that is something they are forced to do, given the fact that the Gaza strip is almost entirely an urban area. No one in their right mind would ask that Hamas gather its divisions and fight against the IDF head on on a neutral piece of land: Hamas is an insurgency, not a conventional army. It is therefore normal that it would fight from urban areas. So while Hamas fights from urban areas, does it drag civilians into the fight? Amnesty International's report on Cast Lead is clear: they have found no Palestian to bear witness to the claim that Hamas militants sheltered behind them to fire rockets ot to attack IDF ground troops - even though Palestinian civilians have openly and freely testified against Hamas to humanitarian organizations about a variety of other claims of abuse. Amnesty International has found no proof that Hamas ever forced civilians to remain in a zone where fighting took place. And among all the inquiries led by Amnesty International in cases where civilians were hit by IDF shelling of bombing, NONE revealed that Hamas fighters were hiding among the victims. We have seen a few claims of evidence that Hamas leaders have asked Gazans to act as human shields: one interview of Sami Abu Zuhri who praises Palestinian civilians who are courageous enough to stand on top of their homes in order to try to deter IAF planes from bombing them - but that's people trying to protect their property and homes, not Hamas using human shields - and an intervention by the Hamas minister of the Interior, resquesting that Gazans do not listen to calls to evacuate their homes (which still would not make them human shields for Hamas). An intervention which in any case went totally unheeded according to the link the author used as evidence itself - http://www.smh.com.a...714-zt6cs.html. So in any case, Gazans' will to put themselves in danger, hoping that their presence would deter the bombing of their homes or vital infrastructures, does not mean that Hamas uses human shields for its militants. "Human shields" are a convenient excuse for civilian casualties, but in reality, Hamas does not use them. And I'll only incidentally mention that on the contrary, the use of civilian Palestinian human shields by IDF soldiers during IDF interventions has been demonstrated - see the Amnesty International report I mentioned earlier, chapter 2.1. The IDF targeting civilian buildings does not make the people who live or work there human shields, especially not when the IDF's reasons are so spurious. For instance: in the beginning of Protective Edge, a good deal of the IDF's targets were individual homes of Hamas leaders - not necessarily military commanders, but also police chiefs or civilian leaders. Wikipedia has an excellent list: http://en.wikipedia....rotective_Edge. These homes were where these people lived with their families. There is no reason to call the family of a Hamas member not currently engaging in military operations and yet targeted for assassination a human shield. The IDF also claims that their targeting of civilian buildings is motivated by the fact that Hamas stores ammunition or rockets there. Two things: according to the UN itself, when they found rockets stored in their buildings, these buildings were always empty and not occupied by civilians. Second, in virtue of the principle of proportionality in war, mere weapons or ammunition cannot be used as a justification to destroy a civilian building, much less a UN building. All these problems are compounded by the fact that the IDF produces very little proof of each of its claims. When hospitals or schools are targeted, and the reason invoked is that a rocket was launched "in the vicinity", that's not good enough, because a) the IDF produces no material proof, IDF weaponry is precise enough that it should be able to handle "in the vicinity" of a building, and not the building itself, c) a militant launching rockets has enough time to evacuate his firing position before the counter-attack anyway and most importantly, d) the strategic advantage gained by killing a single militant launching rockets is minimal, almost non-existent, and therefore targeting such an important building as a hospital, or a UN school used for sheltering ciivilians, cannot be justified and is in clear contradiction with the principle of proportionality - for everyone, including Israel and Hamas, know that the military threat of one Qassam rocket is minimal. I reject both arguments presented in the paragraph starting by "Why launch rockets..." and the next one. For starters, Hamas does not launch rockets without reason, and has shown in the past that it would not fire any rockets into Israel while ceasefires are in effect, going so far as to stopping other militant groups from firing rockets: http://i.imgur.com/LseCaqZ.png. While the graph in itself does not show explicit efforts by Hamas to stop other militant factions from firing rockets into Israel, these two articles do: http://www.al-monito...iege-egypt.html and http://www.ynetnews....683385,00.html. I am also quite critical of the idea that launching rockets "invites great damage to your own people" when Israel always has the option of treating these rockets as what they really are, that is, pretty harmless pieces of rocketry - and therefore the option not to escalate. In fact, the reasons given by Hamas for their launching of rockets into Israel are well known, and are listed in the Amnesty International report in section 4.1.3: they are launched in response to the death of Palestinians, and are the symbolic representation of Hamas' and other groups' resistance to the occupation - i.e. they are themselves retaliatory, and they embody Hamas' commitment to resistance. These two paragraphs paint Hamas as a cold and calculating organization that try to get Palestinians to die in order to boost their own international image. This is pretty baseless and vile, as far as accusations go: would anyone pretend that Israel deliberately sent its 60 or so soldiers who have died so far in Protective Edge to die in order to get an image boost? So that's why the author's question/answer #4 is an outright lie. 5) "Why are people asking for Israel to end the "occupation" in Gaza?" This one ought to be shorter. Gaza is under Israeli occupation because Gaza does not control its borders, its airspace or its coasts; Gaza is under a land and sea blockade that lets only a minimal amount of resources in - here is evidence regarding restrictions in food importation caused by the blockade :http://www.theguardi...rie-limit-gaza. The buffer zones set up by Israel inside Gaza cover about a sixth of Gazan territory. And so on. It is an argument in bad faith to talk about the disengagement and the demolition of the settlements without mentioning the harsh blockade that followed the election of Hamas. What the author says about Hamas not willing to invest in construction projects other than tunnels is false. After 2006, the Gazan economy was largely dependant on tunnels into Egypt, and thankfully for the Gazan population a large quantity of resources and building materials could be imported into Gaza. These were used not only for civilian and military tunnels, but for many other construction and reonstruction projects. The resources Israel allowed in through their border were used in accordance with Israeli demands, under UN monitoring, for the purpose of building schools among others. Here is an excellent article about the tunnel economy, and how vital these were for the Gazan economy and the living conditions in Gaza : http://palestine-stu...1&href=fulltext I am quite incensed by what the author implies when he says that Hamas did not build shelters for its population. No indeed, Hamas did not build such shelters, and for two major reasons: a) The bombs used by the IAF are of another caliber than Hamas' rockets, and building shelters that would protect people from such bombs is not within Hamas' means, and there are designated shelters in Gaza, these are UN buildings such as schools - such buildings are supposed to be inviolable and are not supposed to be bombed or shelled by the IDF. And yet they were. I'll finish by quoting the article's own question/answer #1, last paragraph: "Yes, there's an unfair and illegal occupation there, and yes, it's a human rights disaster." So that's why the author's question/answer #5 is full of bad faith, and mixes in a couple of lies. 6) "Why are there so many more casualties in Gaza than in Israel?" I have already answered some elements there, and the author is repeating himself somewhat. Less civilians die in Israel for three reasons, the first one being that Hamas' rockets are notoriously inefficient at killing Israelis, the second one being that Hamas has launched less rockets/mortars at Israel in Protective Edge than Israel has at Gaza, ant the third one being that Hamas has objectively way less means than Israel to protect its citizens from the ordnance falling from the skies. I'll remark again that the link he uses to justify his claim that there are more casualties because Hamas tells people to stay put directly contradicts his claim - since it says that people actually fled en masse. As for the rest, it is the same accusation according to which Hamas wants to see Gazans dead for PR purposes. That's still putting thoughts into Hamas' mind. The truth is that Hamas has absolutely no need for Gazan civilians to die in order to have a certain legitimacy: the occupation and the general treatment of Palestinians by Israel are enough to legitimize resistance. So that's why the author's question/answer #6 is not only a rehash of previous points, but a diversion as well. 7) "If Hamas is so bad, why isn't everyone pro-Israel in this conflict?" I don't have much to say about question/answer #7, except this: there is no need to slander Hamas in order to be able to paint them as bad guys. As I said: each rocket they launch is a war crime. They are not secular. They violently suppress opposition, as was shown during the Gazan civil war that followed the elections. They are authoritarian. I could even accept someone telling me that they used to use suicide bombings to kill civilians - although they have renounced suicide attacks for more than a decade. All that in itself is enough. But it's not even a question of being pro-Hamas or anti-Hamas. One population is needlessly suffering way more than the other in this conflict. More than a million of people are food-insecure, they have little water, little electricity, their everyday life is a nightmare of horrid humanitarian conditions. That is why we should take their defense, and protest Israel's actions. It's not being pro-Palestinian, it's being anti-discrimination, anti-racism, and pro-self-determination. There you have it! I hope this post will have been useful, if it does anything it centralizes quite a few useful links for debating purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djf Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 There's more to a shield than simply thrusting someone directly in front of you a la the end to a bad action movie. Given the position of the person in the blindfold, you'd need to be a certain shot to be sure of hitting the soldier and you'd be unable to use anything with a blast radius. I'm fairly sure that picture constitutes a human shield under the articles of war, assuming that the 'shield' was actually positioned there (which is a pretty reasonable assessment). I've not read the link provided so couldn't comment upon it. Either way, if it is to be suggested that Hamas militants operating from residential areas is considered using human shields then nobody can argue in good faith that the above image is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Guns Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 New one today. Absolutely outstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Benoit Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Turned it off as soon as he started having a go at people demonstrating because they didn't demonstrate for other bad stuff. Apologies if what followed was insightful life changing stuff but I'll not hold my breath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maroonlegions Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Another's "left" another's fight, another's "right" another's fight and around and around we go and meanwhile children die horrific deaths, politics are a cancer in this plight just now, its about the humanitarian side of this one sided genocidal massacre that really matters and as usual the political and religious cancers pollute it and are used by some to justify this slaughter, fecking joke that some using these two cancers actually think they are in any way civilised in their perceptions and thinking of what is actually taking place in Gazza. War crimes have been committed but the big fat Yankee dollar will but out any real blame or responsibility of those guilty of these genocidal crimes, the blood money is probably exchanging bank balances already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Draper Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 "The resolutely biased Western media". Aye good one, Pat. Only in Opposite Land, to paraphrase Spongebob Squarepants, is the Western media biased towards the Palestinians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alwaysthereinspirit Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 It doesn't really look like the soldiers hiding behind him and using him as a shield though does it? Could be photoshopped and he's really not around the corner out of harms way. Unfortunately that would spoil the illusion that Hamas are the victim here as per. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moogsy Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 So Hamas have ended the ceasefire then. Not surprising, these are the same people that view their own people's deaths as being 'good for the cause'. Despicable bunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent B.A Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 So Hamas have ended the ceasefire then. Not surprising, these are the same people that view their own people's deaths as being 'good for the cause'. Despicable bunch. They made it pretty clear that the rockets would continue until the blockade is lifted. Ensuring the safety of the people in Gaza is not their number one priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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