Israel starts ground offensive in Gaza.

[matt84]

 

 

I know one Palestinian. She favours a one-state solution. She says that many don't.

 

Hamas want to dismantle the state of Israel. What do you think that would mean for the Jews that live there?

 

Out of interest what are your views on the way Hamas operate? Are the reports that they tell their citizens to martyr themselves rather than flee to safety when they're warned of rockets coming true, or tosh?

 

I try and look at both sides of this. It's hard to say what we'd do if we were being rocketed indiscriminately

 

What would that mean for the Jews that live there? They, along with the Palestinians, would become citizens of a new country with an equal say in all matters and administered for the benefit of everyone.

 

Nobody is saying that Jewish people can't go and live in that part of the world if they believe it is their ancestral home. What you have to accept though is that there are people of other races, religions and creeds that live there also. What you can't do is turn up and declare that this now belongs to you and kick everybody out that currently lives there or treat them as second class citizens if they refuse to move.

 

What are my views on the way Hamas operate? Hamas are a democratically elected party who attempt to administer their jurisdiction and act in the best interests of their constituents. As someone mentioned earlier they are mostly involved in civil government.

 

What you are probably referring to is the military wing of the party. The Izzedine Al Qassam Brigades.

 

Remember the Palestinians whether it's the Gazans or the West Bankers have no Military. None whatsoever. No planes, no ships, no tanks, no soldiers, no guns, no armour, no command centres. Nothing.

 

The only way they can stand up and be heard in any way shape or form is for young men to join the Al Qassam Brigades and fire off rockets.

 

I'm also not entirely sure that people are aware that these Qassam rockets are in fact home made. Yes that's right. They are essentially 6ft metal tubes filled with fertiliser. They have no guidance and virtually no impact at all. 99% of them are intercepted by the Iron Dome defence system or land in fields injuring no one.

 

The firing of these rockets is purely an act of defiance by the Palestinians. An attempt to say to Israel we will not lay down and die.

 

Remember these rockets have only been in existence for ten years. Palestine has been occupied for decades.

 

As for the tactics on the ground. You could be forgiven for laughing if it wasn't so horrific when you hear an Israeli commander claim Hamas fire rockets from civilian areas. The entire Gaza Strip is a civilian area. Where are they supposed to fire them from.

[matt84]

 

 

 

A bizarre analogy to medieval history aside, Israeli actions are given Hamas justification for theirs. It doesn't mean they aren't terrorists though.

 

What's bizarre about the analogy?

 

William Wallace was a Scot who defended his home from invading English armies. Hamas are Palestinians who defend their homes from invading Israeli armies. One is known the world over as brave freedom fighter who stood up for his principals and refused to be terrorised and the other is branded a terrorist organisation.

 

A terrorist is a person or group that uses unjust force against others.

 

Why are the Palestinians not allowed to defend themselves?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

What's bizarre about the analogy?

 

William Wallace was a Scot who defended his home from invading English armies. Hamas are Palestinians who defend their homes from invading Israeli armies. One is known the world over as brave freedom fighter who stood up for his principals and refused to be terrorised and the other is branded a terrorist organisation.

 

Because comparing the geopolitics of the Middle East to what a bunch of feudal landlords squabbled about in the 13th century is bizarre. In addition, Wallace is best known around the world from the ripping yarn that is Braveheart as opposed to actual history. With Israel and Palestine the history is well known. What isn't clear is the solution.

 

A terrorist is a person or group that uses unjust force against others.

 

Which Hamas have done many times in the past. That was my point.

Why are the Palestinians not allowed to defend themselves?

Who said they weren't?

[matt84]

 

 

 

Because comparing the geopolitics of the Middle East to what a bunch of feudal landlords squabbled about in the 13th century is bizarre. In addition, Wallace is best known around the world from the ripping yarn that is Braveheart as opposed to actual history. With Israel and Palestine the history is well known. What isn't clear is the solution.

 

 

 

Which Hamas have done many times in the past. That was my point.

 

Who said they weren't?

 

Equating the Scottish Wars of Independence to a mere squabble. Now that is bizarre.

 

The purpose of referring to William Wallace was to highlight the double standards and hypocrisy that is inherent in labelling someone a terrorist. It depends entirely what side of the fence you are on. The word terrorist is utterly useless and only causes bias in this situation as it is two groups of people at war.

 

You mention that the history of Israel-Palestine is well known but from reading through the posts on this topic it's quite clear it isn't.

 

When have Hamas used unjust force?

 

If the Palestinians are allowed to defend themselves in what way shape or form are they allowed to do so?

[JamboX2]

 

 

Yes. In the sense that it was the last straw.

 

I take it you don't?

 

 

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

The murdered teenagers was an atrocious act. But surely that's a matter of policing and the justice system rather than the green light to invade the Palestinian territory again?

 

There was, at the same time of the murders, the death of a Palestinian boy and the savage assault on his friend in the West Bank which had the same effect for Palestinians as the deaths of the Israeli boys, and that was committed by I think the IDF. Each is dreadful. But I don't think the deaths of 3 people legitimises the deaths of near 1000 persons as much as the death of the Palestinian boy doesn't give Hamas licence to fire rockets into Israel.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Equating the Scottish Wars of Independence to a mere squabble. Now that is bizarre.

 

Sigh. Missing the point. Most of the Scottish lords owned estates in both Scotland and England. The squabbles were over who occupied the Scottish throne. Anyway, that isn't important to the context but you bash on if you must.

 

The purpose of referring to William Wallace was to highlight the double standards and hypocrisy that is inherent in labelling someone a terrorist. It depends entirely what side of the fence you are on. The word terrorist is utterly useless and only causes bias in this situation as it is two groups of people at war.

 

Is it really? Were the IRA terrorists? Were the UVF? Were people like me, who were not terrorists but living in a "theatre of war" apparently, using double standards and hypocrisy by calling them such? It doesn't depend what side of the fence you are on as put it. There is right and wrong and moral judgements as to what makes something right or wrong. I personally believe both sides are in the wrong so what does that make me then?

 

You mention that the history of Israel-Palestine is well known but from reading through the posts on this topic it's quite clear it isn't.

 

In your opinion.

 

When have Hamas used unjust force?

 

That's a difficult question to answer given that your view of "unjust" may be different to mine. I would give this as one example but you might think it is ok.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/1370229/A-day-of-rage-revenge-and-bloodshed.html

 

 

If the Palestinians are allowed to defend themselves in what way shape or form are they allowed to do so?

 

By any means possible as self-defence for life and property. As I said, that is due to Israel being in the wrong.

[JamboX2]

 

 

 

Equating the Scottish Wars of Independence to a mere squabble. Now that is bizarre.

 

The purpose of referring to William Wallace was to highlight the double standards and hypocrisy that is inherent in labelling someone a terrorist. It depends entirely what side of the fence you are on. The word terrorist is utterly useless and only causes bias in this situation as it is two groups of people at war.

 

If you were an Englishman living near the border, or even a scots bordered of the time of Wallace you would consider him a terrorist. Sacking York and the North of England was use of unjust force on non-combatants.

 

Hamas is a terrorist organisation. So was the IRA. So was the Stern Gang. Arguably so was Wallace. They all fought for some form of constitutional position to provide those they sought to better a place of their own to call home. One thing that unites them all is that they are all also called freedom fighters. One mans freedom fighter is another's terrorist being the case.

 

If Israel want to have long term peace they'll need to sit down with Hamas while they run Gaza. Britain had to with the IRA to end the Troubles and even had to work with members of the Stern Gang to facilitate the birth of Israel. That doesn't make them less of a terrorist organisation.

[IMac]

???

If you were an Englishman living near the border, or even a scots bordered of the time of Wallace you would consider him a terrorist. Sacking York and the North of England was use of unjust force on non-combatants.

 

Hamas is a terrorist organisation. So was the IRA. So was the Stern Gang. Arguably so was Wallace. They all fought for some form of constitutional position to provide those they sought to better a place of their own to call home. One thing that unites them all is that they are all also called freedom fighters. One mans freedom fighter is another's terrorist being the case.

 

If Israel want to have long term peace they'll need to sit down with Hamas while they run Gaza. Britain had to with the IRA to end the Troubles and even had to work with members of the Stern Gang to facilitate the birth of Israel. That doesn't make them less of a terrorist organisation.

 

wallace didn't sack york or even come close to it.

[ToYouToMe]

 

When have Hamas used unjust force?

 

 

Utterly embarrassing. Your whole argument discredited in one sentence.

 

 

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

 

[2NaFish]

If you were an Englishman living near the border, or even a scots bordered of the time of Wallace you would consider him a terrorist. Sacking York and the North of England was use of unjust force on non-combatants.

 

The bigger point being made here is with regards anachronism. That's why we can't compare wallace and hamas or whoever. It also means we can't say people at the time would call him a terrorist nor can we talk of unjust force. There were rules of chivalry for the period and we can only expect people to abide by them, otherwise almost every great historical figure becomes a monster by our standards.

[Sten Guns]

William Wallace and Kris Donald analogies.

 

[Sidelight]

A young IDF soldier's experience in Gaza!

 

We went into Shuja?iya, to discover and destroy the Hamas? terrorist tunnels. We discovered there an entire underground city, with multi-shaft, wide tunnels, with Wi-Fi & air-conditioning systems, concrete walls, and stocked to the ceiling with weapons and explosives. Some of the tunnels are so wide, that they can ride back and forwards on Vespa-type scooters.

 

And then came the worst! The Hamas ?fighters? started sending towards us 13- and 14-year-old Palestinian children, running at us, wearing explosive-laden suicide-bomber belts!! Those children were death-trapped, and became human bombs, by the community?s adults!! We were trained to fight adult soldiers or any other skilled adults, enabling us to defend our families and countrymen. But this?? We had no other option but, in self-defense, to shoot them at as far a range from us as we could, before the ?responsible adult? that sent them used his mobile phone to detonate the belts, and kill us.?

 

One of the injured soldiers ended up by saying, ?I do not know if I?ll ever be able to sleep again; the pictures of those poor children, killed by my gun, will probably never leave me!?

[ToYouToMe]

A young IDF soldier's experience in Gaza!

 

We went into Shuja?iya, to discover and destroy the Hamas? terrorist tunnels. We discovered there an entire underground city, with multi-shaft, wide tunnels, with Wi-Fi & air-conditioning systems, concrete walls, and stocked to the ceiling with weapons and explosives. Some of the tunnels are so wide, that they can ride back and forwards on Vespa-type scooters.

 

And then came the worst! The Hamas ?fighters? started sending towards us 13- and 14-year-old Palestinian children, running at us, wearing explosive-laden suicide-bomber belts!! Those children were death-trapped, and became human bombs, by the community?s adults!! We were trained to fight adult soldiers or any other skilled adults, enabling us to defend our families and countrymen. But this?? We had no other option but, in self-defense, to shoot them at as far a range from us as we could, before the ?responsible adult? that sent them used his mobile phone to detonate the belts, and kill us.?

 

One of the injured soldiers ended up by saying, ?I do not know if I?ll ever be able to sleep again; the pictures of those poor children, killed by my gun, will probably never leave me!?

 

What? These peace loving politicians of Hamas? Who are just defending the people of Palestine???

 

Surely not!

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

 

[djf]

It's telling of how ridiculous the Israeli propaganda machine is that I can't tell if that's satire or something people are genuinely hoping will be believed.

[Chris Benoit]

It's telling of how ridiculous the Israeli propaganda machine is that I can't tell if that's satire or something people are genuinely hoping will be believed.

 

 

Very much this

[ToYouToMe]

It's telling of how ridiculous the Israeli propaganda machine is that I can't tell if that's satire or something people are genuinely hoping will be believed.

 

Because suicide bombings are so outlandish of course. And Hamas such champions of the Palestinian people.

 

Don't make me laugh.

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

 

[Sidelight]

 

 

Disturbing Video Footage Of Hamas Using Children As Human Shields

 

http://wwwwakeupamericans-spree.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/disturbing-video-footage-of-hamas-using.html#.U9UUByV0zmR

 

 

[Tazio]

Disturbing Video Footage Of Hamas Using Children As Human Shields

 

http://wwwwakeupamer...ml#.U9UUByV0zmR

 

If you try harder you might be able to find a slightly more mental website to reference. David Icke maybe?

[Boab]

Disturbing Video Footage Of Hamas Using Children As Human Shields

 

http://wwwwakeupamer...ml#.U9UUByV0zmR

 

Love the comment from Dan in the comments section.......very objective link.....well done!

[djf]

Because suicide bombings are so outlandish of course. And Hamas such champions of the Palestinian people.

 

Don't make me laugh.

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

Ok lets address the "TERROR TUNNELS"

 

Firstly, tunnelling from Gaza is a long-standing practice and most of the tunnels have been in place for decades. They have mostly been used for the movement of goods, medicine and people due to the border conditions Israel have placed on the Palestinians.

 

Israel are well aware of the tunnels and have done so for a long, long time.

 

Now ask yourself some questions - If there happened to be wi-fi equipped tunnels loaded with missiles do you think the Israeli government would have missed a trick and not have these images plastered on the front of every newspaper in the English speaking world?

 

If the tunnels had been used for militancy and were a real danger to the safety of Israel would there not have been evidence of constant incursions into Israeli territory and militancy within Israeli cities? Why is there only a handful of such incidents over the past decade? Why do Hamas persist with the completely ineffective rocket campaign when they have had the ability to mount an on foot campaign into Israel and even check-in on facebook during the journey?

 

Finally even if we are to take a huge undeserved leap of faith and trust the Israeli narrative on the tunnels and agree that they exist as described and are a current and real threat then why the hell is the Israeli response to bomb civilian centres in Gaza? I'm not military expert but that doesn't seem a rational or reasonable response underground terror attacks. Egypt managed to completely eliminate tunnels from Palestine to Egypt without a shot fired by simply filling them in at their end. Why couldn't the IDF have done the same.

 

PS. If you can provide any impartial evidence of Hamas using children suicide bombers on a widespread basis then do share. Every humanitarian on the ground in the region agree it is more Israeli scaremongering with no basis in reality.

[djf]

Countries operating military maneuvers from a structure in the close proximity of civilian populations knowing full well they could be attacked in response is a vile practice which must be stopped immediately.

 

 

[matt84]

 

 

 

Utterly embarrassing. Your whole argument discredited in one sentence.

 

 

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

You're extremely fond of throwing out pithy little remarks aren't you.

 

"please", "behave", "shameless".

[matt84]

I would never use the word terrorist. It's completely useless. Are the British Army terrorists? They invaded Iraq and killed thousands of civilians.

 

It's only purpose is to delegitimise the enemy which allows you to act without constraint.

[The Real Maroonblood]

 

 

 

 

What would that mean for the Jews that live there? They, along with the Palestinians, would become citizens of a new country with an equal say in all matters and administered for the benefit of everyone.

 

Nobody is saying that Jewish people can't go and live in that part of the world if they believe it is their ancestral home. What you have to accept though is that there are people of other races, religions and creeds that live there also. What you can't do is turn up and declare that this now belongs to you and kick everybody out that currently lives there or treat them as second class citizens if they refuse to move.

 

What are my views on the way Hamas operate? Hamas are a democratically elected party who attempt to administer their jurisdiction and act in the best interests of their constituents. As someone mentioned earlier they are mostly involved in civil government.

 

What you are probably referring to is the military wing of the party. The Izzedine Al Qassam Brigades.

 

Remember the Palestinians whether it's the Gazans or the West Bankers have no Military. None whatsoever. No planes, no ships, no tanks, no soldiers, no guns, no armour, no command centres. Nothing.

 

The only way they can stand up and be heard in any way shape or form is for young men to join the Al Qassam Brigades and fire off rockets.

 

I'm also not entirely sure that people are aware that these Qassam rockets are in fact home made. Yes that's right. They are essentially 6ft metal tubes filled with fertiliser. They have no guidance and virtually no impact at all. 99% of them are intercepted by the Iron Dome defence system or land in fields injuring no one.

 

The firing of these rockets is purely an act of defiance by the Palestinians. An attempt to say to Israel we will not lay down and die.

 

Remember these rockets have only been in existence for ten years. Palestine has been occupied for decades.

 

As for the tactics on the ground. You could be forgiven for laughing if it wasn't so horrific when you hear an Israeli commander claim Hamas fire rockets from civilian areas. The entire Gaza Strip is a civilian area. Where are they supposed to fire them from.

Another excellent post.

 

[ToYouToMe]

 

 

You're extremely fond of throwing out pithy little remarks aren't you.

 

"please", "behave", "shameless".

 

 

I didn't realise that we were debating my posting style now.

 

Poor show sir, poor show.

 

Mind you, it must be hard to defend your statement regarding Hamas and unjust force.

 

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[Boab]

I didn't realise that we were debating my posting style now.

 

Poor show sir, poor show.

 

Mind you, it must be hard to defend your statement regarding Hamas and unjust force.

 

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

No,I think he is trying to debate the issues.

Guys like matt84 and djf have wiped the floor with you in this debate,using eloquence in their posts as opposed to the above.

Debate the issues and leave out that stuff.

Would you agree that there is a lot of dis-information being put out there as witnessed by alfajambo's post 267?

[TheMaganator]

 

 

If you try harder you might be able to find a slightly more mental website to reference. David Icke maybe?

Aye, but what of the footage?

 

I've no idea of it is real btw

[Fourcandles]

In every "Lets discuss religion" thread over the years on JKB.......there are two posters that stick out a mile as strong , highly devout Christians......

I point this out because while they are of course completely entitled to their view, much as a member of parliament they should have their declared interests noted when debating.

 

.

 

 

 

[Ray Gin]

http://youtu.be/B4NXjMHZd7I

[ToYouToMe]

 

No,I think he is trying to debate the issues.

Guys like matt84 and djf have wiped the floor with you in this debate,using eloquence in their posts as opposed to the above.

Debate the issues and leave out that stuff.

Would you agree that there is a lot of dis-information being put out there as witnessed by alfajambo's post 267?

 

 

Glad to see their posts have delighted you so much.

 

 

As for the question as to dis-information, I notice you made no reference to the David Icke link that was posted earlier.

 

 

Oh wait, I see, it supported your position.

 

There is dis information on both sides. They are both playing games.

 

I am prepared to acknowledge that but it seems that those who have an anti Israel agenda are blinded to the tactics of Hamas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[Boab]

Glad to see their posts have delighted you so much. Good for you.

 

 

As for the question as to dis-information, I notice you made no reference to the David Icke link that was posted earlier.

 

 

Oh wait, I see, it supported your position.

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

You're at it again.

Can you not just discuss the issues without appearing to be an arsehole? I don't think anyone is remotely "delighted"!

I never seen that earlier link but will check it out and give you my honest opinion of it.

As for my question...will you answer it?

[Don Draper]

http://youtu.be/B4NXjMHZd7I

 

That is essential viewing.

[ToYouToMe]

 

You're at it again.

Can you not just discuss the issues without appearing to be an arsehole? I don't think anyone is remotely "delighted"!

I never seen that earlier link but will check it out and give you my honest opinion of it.

As for my question...will you answer it?

 

 

Yes. Both sides are using propoganda. No doubt. But there are elements of truth in it all too.

 

My frustration is that Israel are being painted as the bad guys by some on here. But when any army has to fight guerilla warfare, how can they not appear heavy handed? It's inevitable.

 

What I would like to ask you is, do you think that Hamas and their backers are using the Palestinians as pawns in their game and to advance their real goal which is anti Semitic in nature?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[Fourcandles]

 

http://youtu.be/B4NXjMHZd7I

 

Slaughter of the innocents on a 'biblical' scale.

[Boab]

Yes. Both sides are using propoganda. No doubt. But there are elements of truth in it all too.

 

My frustration is that Israel are being painted on here as the bad guys by some on here. But when any army has to fight guerilla warfare, how can they not appear heavy handed? It's inevitable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

Thanks....at least we're back to debating.

You may find this hard to believe but there are are many people who can't get it into their heads how there can be a blockade of Gaza yet the mititary factions of Hamas have thousands of rockets at their disposal.

You would think the IDF would be more than capable of stopping them getting in there in the first place.If Egypt can stop the tunnels...surely they can.

Why is this?

[djf]

I wonder why people might be more passionate and intense in their condemnation of Israel's actions.

 

 

Ignoring the fact that only one side has the power to actually end this conflict.

[matt84]

 

 

 

 

I didn't realise that we were debating my posting style now.

 

Poor show sir, poor show.

 

Mind you, it must be hard to defend your statement regarding Hamas and unjust force.

 

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

My only problem with your debating style is that you haven't really brought anything to the table.

 

I have done my best to be open, honest, articulate and concise with each post. I have tried to give as much information as possible to convey my point.

 

You on the other hand have replied to peoples posts with pithy one liners and such. I had a look back through the topic and so far we have had.

 

"Awful"

"Shameful"

"You're just embarrassing yourself now"

"Ridiculous statement"

"Behave" That's my favourite although the next two run it close.

"Do me a favour"

"Don't make me laugh"

"Naive doesn't cover it"

"Crass"

"Utterly embarrassing"

 

 

 

[djf]

What do people want the people of Palestine to do? What is the benefit of non-violent resistance to them?

 

Between the end of Cast-Lead and the beginning of the recent escalation, rocket attacks from Gaza were nearly non-existent. Those that did happen were down to independent groups and were against the active wishes of Hamas. Despite this Israel continued it's economic blockade of Gaza, continued to control Palestinian air space and territorial waters, continued to expand settlements within Palestinian territory, continued to kidnap and kill Hamas members and continued to control the movements of people into and from Palestine. Hundreds died of starvation, preventable illness and the education system was in tatters due to Israel's blockade.

 

These things continued to happen despite the peace of the Palestinian population.

 

What should they do differently?

[ToYouToMe]

 

 

My only problem with your debating style is that you haven't really brought anything to the table.

 

I have done my best to be open, honest, articulate and concise with each post. I have tried to give as much information as possible to convey my point.

 

You on the other hand have replied to peoples posts with pithy one liners and such. I had a look back through the topic and so far we have had.

 

"Awful"

"Shameful"

"You're just embarrassing yourself now"

"Ridiculous statement"

"Behave" That's my favourite although the next two run it close.

"Do me a favour"

"Don't make me laugh"

"Naive doesn't cover it"

"Crass"

"Utterly embarrassing"

 

Ok fair enough. You are entitled to your opinion of my posts.

 

 

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

 

[matt84]

 

 

 

Ok fair enough. You are entitled to your opinion of my posts.

 

 

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

Ok. No harm done. I'm glad we're all friends again. X

 

 

[Boab]

Yes. Both sides are using propoganda. No doubt. But there are elements of truth in it all too.

 

My frustration is that Israel are being painted as the bad guys by some on here. But when any army has to fight guerilla warfare, how can they not appear heavy handed? It's inevitable.

 

What I would like to ask you is, do you think that Hamas and their backers are using the Palestinians as pawns in their game and to advance their real goal which is anti Semitic in nature?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

It's a good question and is difficult to answer simply.

There is no doubt that Iran has a hand in the situation in Palestine,just as many others have e.g USA.

It would be naive of Iran to think that Israel would cede any land as that would inflame the right wing in Israel....and America...who have huge influence in the shaping of that region.

The anti-semitism card will be played by Israel when needed and is a powerful propaganda tool.....not that none exists....some statements,from Iranian politicians in particular,have been outrageous.

There have,of course,been some equally appalling comments from Israeli politicians...one last week calling Palestinian children snakes!

It's hard to see how the suffering in Gaza will ever end.As long as the huge Jewish lobby in the States dictate America's policy in the region,nothing of any substance will change.That's not anti-semitic...just a fact.

[MacDonald Jardine]

I would never use the word terrorist. It's completely useless. Are the British Army terrorists? They invaded Iraq and killed thousands of civilians.

 

It's only purpose is to delegitimise the enemy which allows you to act without constraint.

 

So if I go on a shooting spree in the name of "racial purity" I have the same legitimacy as a national army?

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 4

 

 

[ToYouToMe]

What do people want the people of Palestine to do? What is the benefit of non-violent resistance to them?

 

Between the end of Cast-Lead and the beginning of the recent escalation, rocket attacks from Gaza were nearly non-existent. Those that did happen were down to independent groups and were against the active wishes of Hamas. Despite this Israel continued it's economic blockade of Gaza, continued to control Palestinian air space and territorial waters, continued to expand settlements within Palestinian territory, continued to kidnap and kill Hamas members and continued to control the movements of people into and from Palestine. Hundreds died of starvation, preventable illness and the education system was in tatters due to Israel's blockade.

 

These things continued to happen despite the peace of the Palestinian population.

 

What should they do differently?

 

Peaceful resistance? Which is far more likely to affect change imo. Politics?

 

But as I have stated above I don't believe Hamas are interested in peace or any solution other than the destruction of Israel.

 

That's why I can't agree with the depiction of Hamas as some sort of political body engaged in a struggle for emancipation which truly represents the Palestinians.

 

They rule through fear and manipulation imo. It suits their aims to fan the flames of conflict.

 

 

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

 

[Mikey1874]

Israel are the "bad guys" - killing children in their strategy to gain land.

 

They are not of course acting without justification and like everyone else can give reasons for what they do. And are more skilled now in the media. And they have a lot of powerful backers.

 

And they are still killing children and others for the overall strategy of control of all the land.

[Mikey1874]

 

As somebody alluded to earlier when you dehumanise your enemy and make them out to be irrational savages hell bent on destroying you for no reason you can justify any action against them.

 

It's often said that Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran or simply Arabs in general wish to "wipe Israel from the map". If you actually read what these organisations have said and in what context it becomes very clear that what they actually mean is they wish to see the end of the political entity that is Israel.

 

They view Israel as an inherently undemocratic apartheid racist State created in their midst.

 

You could compare it to the western powers wishing an end to the Soviet Union. This didn't mean they were going to march over Russia killing every man, women and child. Simply that the political entity should be dismantled.

 

If you were to ask Palestinians now if they would live side by side in one State with Israelis where everybody was an equal and had a voice and a vote, there were no separate roads or schools or hospitals, no preferential treatment for one side or the other, they would certainly say yes.

 

Palestinians have been made out to be demonic anti-Semites when their only crime is to feel massively aggrieved by their treatment at the hands of Israel.

 

It's actually the Israelis that have no desire to live in peace with the Palestinians. As I stated earlier the entire raison d'?tre of Israel is to have a Jewish State exclusively for Jewish people.

 

It's very clear to anybody that has studied the territorial maps of the last 70 years that Israel is attempting to take over the entire area it calls Eretz-Israel ( The Land Of Israel). Their very own declaration of Statehood didn't actually mention any set borders precisely for this reason.

 

The West Bank has been eroded away to a few sporadic unconnected towns here and there such as Ramallah, Nablus and Hebron. All under military occupation surrounded by illegal settlements, IDF defence posts, security barriers and check points.

 

The Gaza Strip has been squeezed and squeezed with various buffer zones and no go areas. The current events have demolished entire neighbourhoods leaving tens of thousands of people homeless.

 

The aim of Israel is to make life so unbearable for Palestinians that they just pick up and leave.

 

The most egregious aspect of the whole conflict is that the oppressor paints itself as the victim and the victim as the oppressor.

 

and this

[moogsy]

Equating the Scottish Wars of Independence to a mere squabble. Now that is bizarre.

 

The purpose of referring to William Wallace was to highlight the double standards and hypocrisy that is inherent in labelling someone a terrorist. It depends entirely what side of the fence you are on. The word terrorist is utterly useless and only causes bias in this situation as it is two groups of people at war.

 

You mention that the history of Israel-Palestine is well known but from reading through the posts on this topic it's quite clear it isn't.

 

When have Hamas used unjust force?

 

If the Palestinians are allowed to defend themselves in what way shape or form are they allowed to do so?

 

Not sure if serious? Are suicide bombings 'justified force'?

[djf]

Peaceful resistance? Which is far more likely to affect change imo. Politics?

 

But as I have stated above I don't believe Hamas are interested in peace or any solution other than the destruction of Israel.

 

That's why I can't agree with the depiction of Hamas as some sort of political body engaged in a struggle for emancipation which truly represents the Palestinians.

 

They rule through fear and manipulation imo. It suits their aims to fan the flames of conflict.

 

 

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

Edited as I think this discussion has ran it's course and i'm just repeating points i've previously made.

[JamboX2]

 

 

The bigger point being made here is with regards anachronism. That's why we can't compare wallace and hamas or whoever. It also means we can't say people at the time would call him a terrorist nor can we talk of unjust force. There were rules of chivalry for the period and we can only expect people to abide by them, otherwise almost every great historical figure becomes a monster by our standards.

 

Indeed. All fair points. And I totally agree.

[JamboX2]

 

 

Because suicide bombings are so outlandish of course. And Hamas such champions of the Palestinian people.

 

Don't make me laugh.

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

Israel has failed to work to a lasting peace under a two state solution for years and years now. They want the whole area as theirs as that way they think they'll feel safe. In the process they've denied a people wanted their own state that right. At least that's how some Palestinians view it. It's part of the reason why Palestinians in some numbers have resorted to Hamas and arming themselves. Add to that the blockade and the walls protecting the land grabs and the utter impoverishment of Palestinians and you should be able to understand why some have resorted to violence. Add to that the fact that in the settlements some Palestinians are denied work, or have work but with minimal rights of employment and job security and you can see why they feel like second class citizens and why they are unhappy with their lot in life.

[matt84]

 

 

 

Not sure if serious? Are suicide bombings 'justified force'?

 

Here are my thoughts on "suicide bombings".

 

The condemnation of suicide bombings is based upon the supposition that innocent civilians or non combatants as someone called them earlier are unjustly murdered.

 

If a Palestinian blows himself up in a restaurant in Tel Aviv and kills a young couple in their twenties the general consensus would be that the couple had no part to play in the bombardment and siege of The Gaza Strip and should therefore be left alone.

 

There is an argument to be made.

 

The Israeli Government and by extension the Israeli Defence Forces are not a private organisation. They are elected, funded, comprised of and operate purely on the behest of Israeli citizens. If you are a citizen of Israel you elect the politicians that send the IDF to Palestine. If you are an Israeli citizen your taxes pay for the F16's, Apache Helicopters and Hellfire missiles that go with it. In short they are in fact the ones who are complicit in committing the crimes. As such it is hard to complain when the people you are terrorising fight back.

 

With the inability to strike the IDF in the absence of any military hardware the Palestinians resorted to blowing themselves up or sending home made rockets into Israel itself as a last recourse.

 

As we have all seen from the last few weeks the Israeli Defence Force itself has no objections to killing "innocent civilians" in the course of carrying out its military aims.

 

Why should the Palestinians be held to a higher standard?