Zibi Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Better for whom? Palestinians and Jews who aren't Zionists would see the biggest benefit. These are the two groups who have suffered most from Israel. However, more generally if the international community took a stand on Israel and gave the land back to the people that were removed from it and removed the constant threat they have been under for decades it would send a wider message out that the world isn't going to stand idly by and allow a fascist state to oppress a people in the way they have been able to do since they first invaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 The sooner the Zionist colonial savages leave Palestine the better. Sadly I can't see it happening until the world standing of the US declines much further. What do you define Palestine as though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zibi Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 What do you define Palestine as though? Israel and the occupied territories, apart from the Golan Heights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidelight Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Has there ever been a country called Palestine? No! Never - simply a slang name for the Holy Land under the Romans. The people who are referred to as Palestinians are Arabs, only in recent history have they referred to themselves as Palestinians. The title was apparently initiated by the terrorist and founder of the PLO, Yassir Arafat, circa 1964. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Of course they are Arabs. And also Palestinians. Arab is a pretty big base to cover and covers people of all faiths in the region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Israel and the occupied territories, apart from the Golan Heights. And who guarantees the human rights of Jews in this world of yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidelight Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 The sooner the Zionist colonial savages leave Palestine the better. Sadly I can't see it happening until the world standing of the US declines much further. The Palestine Arabs do have their own state. Geographically larger than the state of Israel, its called Jordan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 The Palestine Arabs do have their own state. Geographically larger than the state of Israel, its called Jordan. I think you need to do more research before making these statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Looking bleaker and bleaker tonight. Israel now rounding on Kerry. Obama,if he had any baws,would say something...anything! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidelight Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I think you need to do more research before making these statements. 'Jordan' the Arab state since 1946/8. IMO Very soon (maybe 2015 or before) Israel will attack and successfully destroy Iran?s perceived Nuclear capability. This action will give Russia along with Iran the green light to embark on a massive military invasion of Israel. The war against Israel will end in disaster for Russia and Iran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaac Clarke Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 'Jordan' the Arab state since 1946/8. IMO Very soon (maybe 2015 or before) Israel will attack and successfully destroy Iran?s perceived Nuclear capability. This action will give Russia along with Iran the green light to embark on a massive military invasion of Israel. The war against Israel will end in disaster for Russia and Iran. No way Russia would ever invade Israel purely because it would inevitably drag in the Americans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C00l K1d Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 'Jordan' the Arab state since 1946/8. IMO Very soon (maybe 2015 or before) Israel will attack and successfully destroy Iran?s perceived Nuclear capability. This action will give Russia along with Iran the green light to embark on a massive military invasion of Israel. The war against Israel will end in disaster for Russia and Iran. Utter nonsense. You do realise Jordan is as artificial as Israel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smack Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Has there ever been a country called Palestine? No! Never - simply a slang name for the Holy Land under the Romans. The people who are referred to as Palestinians are Arabs, only in recent history have they referred to themselves as Palestinians. The title was apparently initiated by the terrorist and founder of the PLO, Yassir Arafat, circa 1964. And if they had planted a flag? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alwaysthereinspirit Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Palestinians and Jews who aren't Zionists would see the biggest benefit. These are the two groups who have suffered most from Israel. However, more generally if the international community took a stand on Israel and gave the land back to the people that were removed from it and removed the constant threat they have been under for decades it would send a wider message out that the world isn't going to stand idly by and allow a fascist state to oppress a people in the way they have been able to do since they first invaded. When you say Palestinians and Jews have suffered the most from Israel, which Jews do you mean? Israeli Jews living there or Jews in other parts of the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidelight Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Utter nonsense. You do realise Jordan is as artificial as Israel? 'Jordan' the Arab state since 1946/8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidelight Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Utter nonsense. You do realise Jordan is as artificial as Israel? ?Palestine and Jordan are one?? said King Abdullah in 1948. ?The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan,? said King Hussein of Jordan, in 1981. Abdul Hamid Sharif, Prime Minister of Jordan declared, in 1980, ?The Palestinians and Jordanians do not belong to different nationalities. They hold the same Jordanian passports, are Arabs and have the same Jordanian culture.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homme Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Meanwhile Israel maintain their bombardment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 ?Palestine and Jordan are one?? said King Abdullah in 1948. ?The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan,? said King Hussein of Jordan, in 1981. Abdul Hamid Sharif, Prime Minister of Jordan declared, in 1980, ?The Palestinians and Jordanians do not belong to different nationalities. They hold the same Jordanian passports, are Arabs and have the same Jordanian culture.? So why is Israel settling on "Jordanian" land? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 ?Palestine and Jordan are one?? said King Abdullah in 1948. ?The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan,? said King Hussein of Jordan, in 1981. Abdul Hamid Sharif, Prime Minister of Jordan declared, in 1980, ?The Palestinians and Jordanians do not belong to different nationalities. They hold the same Jordanian passports, are Arabs and have the same Jordanian culture.? As I said you need to read some facts. Jordan is a completely artificial state. The ruling family are actually Saudi and were given Jordan by the British. Also could it be that your quotes that you place so much faith in were a message of support to the many hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who live there as refugees from their own land? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Tucker Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Heaviest night of bombardment from Israel into Gaza City last night, by all accounts. This following the bombing of a play-park. I doubt Hamas were hiding a rocket-launcher under the swings. Whatever side you sway towards in this debate, the intentional murder of civilians is disgusting. Depressingly, the people in power have made their choice now. I don't think this is going to stop until Gaza is wiped out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasavallan Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Utter nonsense. You do realise Jordan is as artificial as Israel? Correct. The whole of the ME is artificial. There were no boundaries in the ME until 1916. Up until then the whole of the Saudi peninsular was part of the Ottoman Empire and was ruled by the nomad Bedouin. The countries as we know then today were drawn up by the British-French to divide their sphere of influence/control after the fall of the Ottomans and were basically drawn up by using a ruler. Jordan originally emerged as part of the British Protectorate of Transjordania,.which included what is now the countries of Iraq, Jordan and Palestine. In 1921 these countries had their borders drawn up by a drunken Winston Churchill who arbitrarily drew lines on a map using a ruler and a pen (check out Winston's Hiccup)..Iraq beacme a separate Kingdom but Transjordan remaining under British protectorate. Transjordan became the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.in 1946 with the then Emir Abdullah becoming King. Palestine stayed under British control until the Arab-Isreali War of 1948.. Jordan came into being almost at the same time that the state of Isreal was founded. The problems in the Middle East today is a direct result of British imperialism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homme Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Not to mention the bombing of Gaza's only power station. Sickening - but in self defence i guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Meanwhile Israel maintain their bombardment. killing more children and of course maybe their relatives, friends and others will forgive - the best but hardest response but maybe some of them will seek revenge and how is that going to go? Without its allies including I must say Russia Israel would face destruction. No need for any of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zibi Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 When you say Palestinians and Jews have suffered the most from Israel, which Jews do you mean? Israeli Jews living there or Jews in other parts of the world? Jews who don't live in Israel. Anti-Semitism is never going to go away for so long as Israel exists. The worse the atrocities they commit the worse it gets. Attacks on synagogues have went through the roof in Europe since their latest offensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 And from the Israeli side this journalist penned the following. http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/cnn-bbc-and-the-like-are-responsible-for-civilian-deaths-in-gaza/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Is it accurate there has never been an independent Palestinian state in history and has always been under the control of other powers? Kind of not. Obviously ancient times it was Jewish, then Roman, then Byzantine. Then it was Ottoman. Then after World War 1 it was made a League of Nations Mandate under British rule. France got Syria and Lebananon. Britain called it Trans-Jordan. The Balfour Declaration said there would be a home for the Jews there and the British had also promised a land for the Arabs in the same area when they fought the ottomans. There was a lot immigration of Jews into the area and there were tensions. And there were groups like the Stern Gang who were zionists calling for the whole land. This got a lot worse in the post-ww2 period and the UN stepped in and drew up the 1948 partition plan. Unfortunately for the Zionists they didn't get all of Trans Jordan (which to them is biblical Judea) as Jordan, Syria and Egypt sat around them by now. They all opposed he creation of Israel and wanted the land to become Palestine. They invaded when the last British troops got on their boats out and the war began the process we see being continued now. Of war, peace, war, peace every few years. Had they not invaded and let it play out under the partition Palestine would have existed. They didn't and much of the land was occupied and settled over the next few decades. So no, there's never really been a Palestinian state. Jordan offered to take over the West Bank with Egypt taking Gaza. But I don't think the Israelis were too open to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 For as long as this issue is bogged down in the who owns which land debate (as is happening in this thread) the argument will go nowhere. On a purely humanitarian point, the collateral damage caused by Israel's bombing is unforgivable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidelight Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Correct. The whole of the ME is artificial. There were no boundaries in the ME until 1916. Up until then the whole of the Saudi peninsular was part of the Ottoman Empire and was ruled by the nomad Bedouin. The countries as we know then today were drawn up by the British-French to divide their sphere of influence/control after the fall of the Ottomans and were basically drawn up by using a ruler. Jordan originally emerged as part of the British Protectorate of Transjordania,.which included what is now the countries of Iraq, Jordan and Palestine. In 1921 these countries had their borders drawn up by a drunken Winston Churchill who arbitrarily drew lines on a map using a ruler and a pen (check out Winston's Hiccup)..Iraq beacme a separate Kingdom but Transjordan remaining under British protectorate. Transjordan became the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.in 1946 with the then Emir Abdullah becoming King. Palestine stayed under British control until the Arab-Isreali War of 1948.. Jordan came into being almost at the same time that the state of Isreal was founded. The problems in the Middle East today is a direct result of British imperialism The Palestine Arabs do have their own state. Geographically 3 times larger than the state of Israel, you are absolutely correct it?s called Jordan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 The Palestine Arabs do have their own state. Geographically 3 times larger than the state of Israel, you are absolutely correct it?s called Jordan. You can type it as many times as you want it is still utter nonsense. I suggest you read up on The Nakba. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigieboy Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 First comment on this. This whole situation is awful. It's never ending. How can they get away with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malinga the Swinga Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Funny how people can get taken in by the soft reporting on Hamas and it's fights. They are a terrorist organisation who want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, and yet people, from thousands of miles away, say a recognised legal state should negotiate with them. If it was as simple as people here believe, Israel would simply retreat to their borders and everything would be okay. Give it a few months and they would recommence random attacks on Tel Aviv and Jerusalem with missiles being fired, attacks using tunnels on kibbutz and Israelis would be common place, yet all of this takes second place to BBC reporters rushing around taking photos of civilian casualties. When a war is taking place, civilians die, it has always been this way and will remain like this for ever. The people in Gaza are blocked in, yes, but Israel does not control all the borders. Egypt also has a border here and it remains firmly closed, yet funnily enough, their is no 'international' pressure on them to re-open their border and allow Palestinians entry into Egypt. Why would that be. Would it because they too are sick of Hamas and their tunnels, the smuggling of arms from Iran and Syria into its territories for use later in Israel. Strange how when Hamas assist Assad and his regime in fighting rebels in Syria, they are evil and must be stopped, but when they are fighting Israel, they are martyrs and should be admired. Freedom fighters when it suits us and terrorists when it doesn't. If Israel is serious, then it should take the opportunity to crush Hamas once and for all and destroy all tunnels, and only withdraw once they are 100% convinced that no threat remains. Other than Iran and Syria, I doubt any other Arab nation would complain. As for people who complain about artificial states, unless we find a way to go back in time and we can redraw maps, there is nothing that can be done about that now. Do we go back to the Ottoman times, the Persian empire or back to the bible, which in any case, we all know is made up stories? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 As for people who complain about artificial states, unless we find a way to go back in time and we can redraw maps, there is nothing that can be done about that now. Do we go back to the Ottoman times, the Persian empire or back to the bible, which in any case, we all know is made up stories? Oops, that's Israel's claim to land scuppered then.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaac Clarke Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 If Israel is serious, then it should take the opportunity to crush Hamas once and for all and destroy all tunnels, and only withdraw once they are 100% convinced that no threat remains. Other than Iran and Syria, I doubt any other Arab nation would complain. I don't think you'll ever crush Hamas. They'll always be people to take the place of anybody assassinated. The best Israel can do is destroy enough rockets/tunnels to weaken them short term. It'll all kick off again in a few years later though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Benoit Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Oops, that's Israel's claim to land scuppered then.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 The Palestine Arabs do have their own state. Geographically 3 times larger than the state of Israel, you are absolutely correct it?s called Jordan. Still waiting for your explanation of why Israelis are occupying this Jordanian land of yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibrahim Tall Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Strange how when Hamas assist Assad and his regime in fighting rebels in Syria, they are evil and must be stopped, but when they are fighting Israel, they are martyrs and should be admired. Freedom fighters when it suits us and terrorists when it doesn't. Except that's completely false, Hamas "backed" the rebels if anything and lost a hell of a lot of backing from Iran and Syria in doing so. You're possibly thinking of Hezbollah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Except that's completely false, Hamas "backed" the rebels if anything and lost a hell of a lot of backing from Iran and Syria in doing so. You're possibly thinking of Hezbollah. They switched sides. http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/02/24/us-syria-palestinians-idUSTRE81N1CC20120224 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
systemx Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Every time I see or read about Gaza and the blockade/bombings the Warsaw Ghetto comes to mind.After all the Jewish people went through how can they treat others in the same way? And why does Israeli expansion always remind me of Lebensraum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Every time I see or read about Gaza and the blockade/bombings the Warsaw Ghetto comes to mind.After all the Jewish people went through how can they treat others in the same way? And why does Israeli expansion always remind me of Lebensraum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimUpNorth Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Worth a read. How Obama and Kerry wanted to use President Peres to push Netanyahu to work with Abbas and how it has now been lost... http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118751/how-israel-palestine-peace-deal-died Fascinating read, absolutely superb. Took best part of an hour, on and off, but well worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djf Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Even in the unlikely event that Israel could wipe out Hamas they would only be replaced by something worse, perhaps ISIS. Israel know this so you can only draw the conclusion that they don't give a shit about the safety their own civilians as well as their wanton disregard for the life of Palestinians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alwaysthereinspirit Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Even in the unlikely event that Israel could wipe out Hamas they would only be replaced by something worse, perhaps ISIS. Israel know this so you can only draw the conclusion that they don't give a shit about the safety their own civilians as well as their wanton disregard for the life of Palestinians. "Don't give a shit about the safety of their own civilians" is about 180 degrees from reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Apparent leaked transcript of phone call between Obama and Netayahu.... http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-29/shocked-white-house-slams-fabrication-after-israel-tv-leaks-damning-transcript-obama Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidelight Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 You can type it as many times as you want it is still utter nonsense. I suggest you read up on The Nakba. No doubt you are aware that 75% of the land offered to the Jews by the League of Nations was sold behind their backs to the Arabs, Palestinians if you want, they are the same people. This land has been called Jordan since 1948. The Jews where giving the remaining 25%. However the Arabs were against the Jews being given any land and to appease the Arabs, the UN voted to apportion the remaining 25% between the Jews and the Arabs ? the Jews accepted this partition the Arabs not. Israel declared its Independence on May 14, 1948, after the vote from the United Nations had been concluded. One day later, five Arab armies invaded Israel. Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq - This war had nothing to do with allowing a two state solution. In fact the opposite is true; the Arabs waged war because they were rejecting a two state solution. Their stated goal was the complete destruction and extermination of Israel! And it still is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 No doubt you are aware that 75% of the land offered to the Jews by the League of Nations was sold behind their backs to the Arabs, Palestinians if you want, they are the same people. This land has been called Jordan since 1948. The Jews where giving the remaining 25%. However the Arabs were against the Jews being given any land and to appease the Arabs, the UN voted to apportion the remaining 25% between the Jews and the Arabs ? the Jews accepted this partition the Arabs not. Israel declared its Independence on May 14, 1948, after the vote from the United Nations had been concluded. One day later, five Arab armies invaded Israel. Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq - This war had nothing to do with allowing a two state solution. In fact the opposite is true; the Arabs waged war because they were rejecting a two state solution. Their stated goal was the complete destruction and extermination of Israel! And it still is. So are you going to tell us why Israel is settling Jordanian land? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homme Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28558433 Israel now defending itself by shelling schools / UN run refugee camps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidelight Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 So are you going to tell us why Israel is settling Jordanian land? I don?t teach Israeli apologetics and I am not here to spin my brand of relative morality. I would never state than Israel was not guilty of abominable acts. However Israel does have the right to live in peace and security. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I don?t teach Israeli apologetics and I am not here to spin my brand of relative morality. I would never state than Israel was not guilty of abominable acts. However Israel does have the right to live in peace and security. Yes it does. That doesn't mean it has the right to indiscriminately murder other people to achieve peace and security, nor does it have the right to steal land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2NaFish Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 That's a no, Geoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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