Official Ashes 2013/14 Thread

[Chad Sexington]

All out for 179.

 

Pitiful again by England.

[shaun.lawson]

England's tail. Good lord. This really is like being back in the 90s.

 

Believe it or not, we absolutely can still win - but all the momentum is with Australia. And whereas in 1998, Mullally added an absolutely crucial 20 odd to give us something to defend, this time, we've added nothing.

 

We deserve to lose this 5-0. Outrageous if we still win this game after playing like that tbh.

[Chad Sexington]

England's tail. Good lord. This really is like being back in the 90s.

 

Believe it or not, we absolutely can still win - but all the momentum is with Australia. And whereas in 1998, Mullally added an absolutely crucial 20 odd to give us something to defend, this time, we've added nothing.

 

We deserve to lose this 5-0. Outrageous if we still win this game after playing like that tbh.

 

Credit where it's due, you've called this one pretty much spot on from the start.

 

I think what will let your prediction down will be just how feeble the England tail was.

 

If they'd even added 20 or 30 I reckon that would have made the difference.

 

I think Australia will go on and win this now.

 

 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

MP Vaughan is on TMS at the moment saying the seethe at Gooch is misplaced and he is right. The collective sphincter twitching at Johnson's bowling has been embarrassing and that's caused the situation here with Lyon able to get a Michelle as a result.

[shaun.lawson]

Credit where it's due, you've called this one pretty much spot on from the start.

 

I think what will let your prediction down will be just how feeble the England tail was.

 

If they'd even added 20 or 30 I reckon that would have made the difference.

 

I think Australia will go on and win this now.

 

That's exactly what I think too. Lead of 250 plus would probably have been enough I think.

 

But here's the thing: I look at this side, and I don't see where 10 wickets are going to come from. We look desperately weak with both ball and the bat - and whereas in '98, we had Headley steaming in and having the game of his life, Gough bowling absolutely out of his skin, and Ramprakash taking a catch for the ages which triggered off an incredible Australian collapse, who do we have now?

 

They look destroyed out there. And if Cook can't get their heads up literally in the next few hours - because this game is still there to be won, but I don't think the players even believe it on that evidence - he should resign IMO. This is desperate, pathetic stuff.

 

In '98, incidentally, Australia's first wicket went down at 31, their 3rd at 103, their 5th at 140... and they were all out for 162 chasing 175 to win. That was a great Aussie side, light years ahead of this one; but it was also an underrated England side who'd been very unlucky and were giving absolutely everything for the cause. They played with passion and pride: is this England side even capable of that? If they're not, they're a disgrace.

[shaun.lawson]

MP Vaughan is on TMS at the moment saying the seethe at Gooch is misplaced and he is right. The collective sphincter twitching at Johnson's bowling has been embarrassing and that's caused the situation here with Lyon able to get a Michelle as a result.

 

MP Vaughan's a top, top man and was an awesome captain. But have you read Botham's autobiography? In his time as England captain, it was his way or the highway for Gooch: he couldn't relate to anyone with different personalities, anyone who wasn't prepared to over-work, over-train and over-analyse.

 

The result was that Gooch had the England players doing hours and hours in the gym during the 1992 World Cup: including those carrying injuries. We promptly blew a tournament we should've won by a mile: tailing off at the end through physical and mental exhaustion.

 

Allan Lamb and Derek Pringle have said very similar things about that time. I think this England camp is miles too introspective and generally intolerant of free spirits: which is considerably why Compton was jettisoned so quickly, and maybe also why Swann's been so unhappy on this tour. Plus there's just so much defensive block, block, block - so we get bogged down early on, the pressure builds and builds, and we just crumble.

 

A lot of it stems from Gooch I think. The batting's been a disaster area for a good year now (the problems started in New Zealand), and he has to be accountable for that. Plus Flower seems to be morphing into Duncan Fletcher with every passing match too. It's all far too cautious, anal and, frankly, scared.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Don't get me wrong. Flower and Gooch are under scrutiny but those shots are nothing to do with coaching and everything to do with stupidity.

[shaun.lawson]

Don't get me wrong. Flower and Gooch are under scrutiny but those shots are nothing to do with coaching and everything to do with stupidity.

 

I think they're to do with psychology. The psychology of playing for a side who've not batted properly for a year; the psychology of being bullied by opponents who they've allowed to get right on top of them; the psychology of playing defensively and with huge amounts of fear.

 

It's all in the mind. In 2005, Vaughan's attitude to his players was "look, we know Warne will take wickets, so let's at least go after him and give him something to think about". Right now, there's so much fear in this side that we're making Johnson look like McGrath and Lyon look like Warne! The whole set-up is just wrong.

[Chad Sexington]

 

 

I think they're to do with psychology. The psychology of playing for a side who've not batted properly for a year; the psychology of being bullied by opponents who they've allowed to get right on top of them; the psychology of playing defensively and with huge amounts of fear.

 

It's all in the mind. In 2005, Vaughan's attitude to his players was "look, we know Warne will take wickets, so let's at least go after him and give him something to think about". Right now, there's so much fear in this side that we're making Johnson look like McGrath and Lyon look like Warne! The whole set-up is just wrong.

 

You're spot on.

 

Some of the England batting has been downright cowardly. They aren't cowardly players. That has to come from upstairs, imo.

 

There seems to be a culture of fear seeping through this England team.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

I think they're to do with psychology. The psychology of playing for a side who've not batted properly for a year; the psychology of being bullied by opponents who they've allowed to get right on top of them; the psychology of playing defensively and with huge amounts of fear.

 

It's all in the mind. In 2005, Vaughan's attitude to his players was "look, we know Warne will take wickets, so let's at least go after him and give him something to think about". Right now, there's so much fear in this side that we're making Johnson look like McGrath and Lyon look like Warne! The whole set-up is just wrong.

Indeed but it doesn't excuse bad decision making. England saw that pitch close up in the first dig. It is doing sweet FA. It was doing sweet FA on Day 1. The only batsman on either side, ironically, who has batted as this pitch properly is KP! That's basics and inexcusable.

[shaun.lawson]

You're spot on.

 

Some of the England batting has been downright cowardly. They aren't cowardly players. That has to come from upstairs, imo.

 

There seems to be a culture of fear seeping through this England team.

 

It's a depressing recurrent theme in English sport - and something the cricketers were traditionally most guilty of for a long, long time. Hussain and Vaughan got a grip of it in different ways (and however earnest he is in the commentary box, I like listening to David Lloyd because I think his positivity began England's re-emergence after over a decade of toil): and when we scored 407 in one day at Edgbaston in 2005, I was hoping we'd put all that negative, ultra-conservative rubbish behind us at last.

 

But then, as we collapsed in Adelaide in 2006, all we did was block block block. Collingwood actually got credit for this from the TMS commentators, despite it being obvious we had to set Australia a proper target; that's why I think Carberry is as or more culpable than most this time, because well... 12 runs from 81 balls in a dead rubber when you're opening the batting and have a lead of 51 already? It's unreal. There's not even the slightest chance an Australian opener would do the same.

 

But heck, even in the World Cup, we've been exposed constantly for two decades now. The sub-continental sides know how to attack; we just don't seem to. The default we fall into is just so negative - and if you look around English team sport, it's laughable how robotic it always is. Where's the enjoyment? Where's the inventiveness? Where's the creativity? And Gooch grew up with that mindset and embodies it completely.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Looks like big Geoffrey agrees with Dusk Till Dawn. Less good than they think they are:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/25533876

[Sooperstar]

Oh England!

[Boof]

Help ma boab!

 

Fell asleep at lunch and when I woke up I reckoned, before checking the score, that it would be not too bad if England had managed to lose <4 wickets.

[Harry Palmer]

It's not getting any better is it?

 

Cook dropping catches and he's put Root into bowl now.

[Kenny ******* Powers]

It's not getting any better is it?

 

Cook dropping catches and he's put Root into bowl now.

 

Never rains but it pours. Easy catch it was too.

[Sooperstar]

It's not getting any better is it?

 

Cook dropping catches and he's put Root into bowl now.

 

Did you mean to say that it was getting much better?

[shaun.lawson]

I'm scandalized by this England team. Sick of the sight of most of 'em.

 

Root and Bairstow both irritate the **** out of me, standing there looking like choirboys. Anderson's supposed to be our best strike bowler, but I've never really rated him, 300 Test wickets or not. Bresnan... what does Bresnan do, exactly? He just ambles in bowling nothing: he's a county player, frankly. And then there's Monty and his fielding, and Cook and his captaincy...

 

This whole team is just so beige. No leaders, barely any characters, names like Jonny and Tim and Alastair and Stuart. We're just a bunch of losers. Anyone got any raw vegetables to chuck at this lot when they arrive home?

[graygo]

/\ /\ /\ /\ /\

[shaun.lawson]

 

There's only one thing that makes an Englishman angrier than losing to the Aussies.

 

It's limp surrender, waving the white flag and producing a series of performances of monumental embarrassment against the Aussies.

 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Today has been the biggest embarrassment of the series. And that is saying something. I hope Buck gets his ton and the Aussies win by 9 wickets. It is what England deserve.

[graygo]

The end is nigh.

 

The Aussies are really going for it now.

[Chad Sexington]

England have played like spineless weasels.

[shaun.lawson]

England have played like spineless weasels.

 

I dunno. Are they just, well, completely knackered? I doubt it's a coincidence that by far the stand-out player of this series played no part in the Test series in England.

 

Regardless: what scares me is how bare the cupboard suddenly looks in English cricket. If we don't rip it all up and start again after this debacle, we never will - and a number of players in this sorry side look like they're begging to be put out of their misery. But who is there? Andrew Strauss just mentioned Ravi Bopara: if Bopara's the answer, what was the question? And if Cook resigned the captaincy, who on Earth would replace him?

 

No wheels on this wagon. England's worst, most humiliating tour since the 1992/3 slaughter in the sub-continent.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Game over. 4-0

 

It will be 5 in the first week of January.

 

Heads have to roll, starting with Andy Flower.

[Chad Sexington]

And that's that.

 

Too easy.

 

 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Oh, and team wise, clean sheet time.

 

I would still chase KP. He has proven that he can bat sensibly. Having not done that the rest of the series makes it even more maddening but he can stay for Sydney as he deserves to lose 5-0 for the second time. The top order needs sorted. Bell needs to bat at 3 as Trott will never play again. Golden boy Root is no more than a 5 or 6. Bairstow is crap and shouldn't play at all.

 

Team for Sydney: Cook, Carberry, Bell, Pietersen, Root, Stokes, Prior, Broad, Rankin, Finn, Panesar

 

Team for India at home: Cook, Carberry, Bell, Ballance, Root, Borthwick, Stokes, Buttler, Broad, Onions, Anderson

[shaun.lawson]

Oh, and team wise, clean sheet time.

 

I would still chase KP. He has proven that he can bat sensibly. Having not done that the rest of the series makes it even more maddening but he can stay for Sydney as he deserves to lose 5-0 for the second time. The top order needs sorted. Bell needs to bat at 3 as Trott will never play again. Golden boy Root is no more than a 5 or 6. Bairstow is crap and shouldn't play at all.

 

Team for Sydney: Cook, Carberry, Bell, Pietersen, Root, Stokes, Prior, Broad, Rankin, Finn, Panesar

 

Team for India at home: Cook, Carberry, Bell, Ballance, Root, Borthwick, Stokes, Buttler, Broad, Onions, Anderson

 

Ridiculous if we just put Prior straight back in again. He's shot to pieces and has been for a year. Also ridiculous to keep Carberry in: he batted himself out of the side yesterday as far as I'm concerned, and has no chance of being retained back in England.

 

Also, why give Rankin and Finn their chance in Sydney, only to immediately jettison them once back home? That makes no sense at all. I'd also be tempted to give Borthwick an immediate go at the SCG: let's face it, spinners are key there, and Cook clearly doesn't trust Panesar. If you ask me, it looked like Panesar had been sent to Coventry because of his poor fielding, which is just bizarre.

 

I agree that we have to stick with KP though. He's the only alternative captain I can see at all.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Ridiculous if we just put Prior straight back in again. He's shot to pieces and has been for a year. Also ridiculous to keep Carberry in: he batted himself out of the side yesterday as far as I'm concerned, and has no chance of being retained back in England.

 

It was ridiculous to pick a 20/20 keeper as the backup keeper. He isn't a keeper. As for Carberry, he has outbatted the rest of the top order except KP. He has to work on balls around the wicket in terms of his defence but otherwise his technique is sound and is what you need as a opener.

 

Also, why give Rankin and Finn their chance in Sydney, only to immediately jettison them once back home? That makes no sense at all. I'd also be tempted to give Borthwick an immediate go at the SCG: let's face it, spinners are key there, and Cook clearly doesn't trust Panesar. If you ask me, it looked like Panesar had been sent to Coventry because of his poor fielding, which is just bizarre.

 

The handling of Monty shows shan captaincy. He's still England's best spinner now that Swann has left. As for Rankin and Finn, it is about rotating the bowlers. Anderson is shot through and Bresnan's military medium is all well and good but at least these two might put the ball around Warner's ugly mug. When they come back to England, Onions needs a recall as he should have been out here in the first place.

 

I agree that we have to stick with KP though. He's the only alternative captain I can see at all.

 

KP as skipper! - no, the next captain is the Sherminator. A pity Swann wasn't playing as I would have given it to him as at least he knows how to set a field.

[shaun.lawson]

The problem with Bell as skipper is I just see it as more of the same. He has no personality either!

 

Carberry? Sorry, but no. The excuses being made for him - including "well, nobody expected him to get that many runs" - are unbelievable, and itself an acknowledgement that he's not up to it. He's an opener on an Ashes tour, and he can't score runs when facing around the wicket bowling? Are you kidding me?

 

No chance on this planet that Australia would persist with someone who approached his innings yesterday as he did. Why the heck should we?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

So you would have Joe 180 and bust Root opening?

[shaun.lawson]

So you would have Joe 180 and bust Root opening?

 

Yep - although if I'd had my way, Compton would be on this tour, and he'd be opening - with Root nowhere to be seen.

 

But as he's not:

 

Cook, Root, Bell, Pietersen, Stokes, Ballance, Bairstow, Broad, Finn, Borthwick, Rankin

 

Possibly Panesar for Finn - but as Cook doesn't rate him, and all his teammates seem to hate him, I can't see the point.

[The Mighty Thor]

I dunno. Are they just, well, completely knackered? I doubt it's a coincidence that by far the stand-out player of this series played no part in the Test series in England.

 

Regardless: what scares me is how bare the cupboard suddenly looks in English cricket. If we don't rip it all up and start again after this debacle, we never will - and a number of players in this sorry side look like they're begging to be put out of their misery. But who is there? Andrew Strauss just mentioned Ravi Bopara: if Bopara's the answer, what was the question? And if Cook resigned the captaincy, who on Earth would replace him?

 

No wheels on this wagon. England's worst, most humiliating tour since the 1992/3 slaughter in the sub-continent.

Bottom line is Shaun that the Aussies were never that bad really and England were never anywhere near as good as the media stoked them into believing.

 

Cook is a good batsman and not that bad a captain. His problem is a lack of support from senior players, who have simply not delivered.

 

Carberry, Root, Bairstow, Stokes aren't good enough.

 

Panesar isn't good enough. The Aussies before the test said they'd go after him. They did. They won the battle before a ball was bowled.

 

No walk Broad is a tosser. It's been enjoyable watching him get taken apart.

 

KP isn't a team player, it's all about KP.

 

That doesn't leave much and as you say the cupboard at home is pretty bare.

 

Hopefully this series is a good learning experience for Cook and a proper wake up call for the ECB.

[Kenny ******* Powers]

England are a good side who have had a nightmare series. There is no doubt about that. Making massive changes when they've already lost Trott and Swann is not the answer though.

 

Carberry- whilst not outstanding has done ok. Compton was dropped for a reason. That reason was he's not good enough.

 

Cook- youngest player EVER to 8000 test runs.

 

Root - decent start to his test career. One of the few who looked comfortable against Johnson.

 

Pietersen - 4th highest run scorer for England all time

 

Bell- 20 century's and basically carried England in the home series.

 

Stokes- looked decent with both bat and ball. Definite potential.

 

Prior- should never have been dropped. Out of form yes but averages over 42 and always bats for the team.

 

All this being said all of the above have under performed on this tour. Of that there is no doubt.

 

The bowlers have been ok but have struggled to press home an advantage when on top.

 

The main differences in this series have been Johnson's ability against the tail, Siddles ability to get Pietersen out at will and Haddin averaging about 75 when his team have been in trouble.

 

Terrible series for England but not the end of this current team.

 

 

 

 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Somebody mentioned Bopara. He epitomises the problem with British sporting attitudes - a couple of big knocks against Bangladesh (yes them) and suddenly he's hoisted up as a top-class player. When in fact he's shite

[shaun.lawson]

Bottom line is Shaun that the Aussies were never that bad really and England were never anywhere near as good as the media stoked them into believing.

 

Cook is a good batsman and not that bad a captain. His problem is a lack of support from senior players, who have simply not delivered.

 

Carberry, Root, Bairstow, Stokes aren't good enough.

 

Panesar isn't good enough. The Aussies before the test said they'd go after him. They did. They won the battle before a ball was bowled.

 

No walk Broad is a tosser. It's been enjoyable watching him get taken apart.

 

KP isn't a team player, it's all about KP.

 

That doesn't leave much and as you say the cupboard at home is pretty bare.

 

Hopefully this series is a good learning experience for Cook and a proper wake up call for the ECB.

 

There's an awful lot that's wrong in the above, I think. Did England ever believe they were that good? In 2011, when we thrashed Australia and India and were number 1 in the world, sure; and we were still a very good side when winning in India, English cricket's finest achievement in decades. But not since then: I think this side knew it had problems, and there were more questions over its make-up going into this series than Australia's: which is incredible given how poor they'd been until only a couple of matches earlier.

 

If Australia hadn't been in a God awful mess, they wouldn't have fired Mickey Arthurs mid-series, would they? But they did, and Lehmann's done a wonderful job creating a superb team ethic in next to no time. England, meanwhile, weren't over-confident or anything like it; it's the opposite. These players have no confidence at all, and have played far, far too much top level cricket in recent years. It catches up with you: and I'd say it's hit all the key players at pretty much the same time.

 

Cook? Cook has no authority over the side, and if he wasn't a bad captain, he wouldn't have set the most scandalously negative field imaginable on the third morning, allowing Australia's last wicket partnership to pile on 40 runs out of nothing; he wouldn't have been bowling his mate Root instead of Panesar (Warne couldn't believe this: it destroyed any confidence Monty might've had, and smacked of the cliques which this England side is riven with); and he wouldn't have responded to Broad drawing an edge and looking dangerous by... not bowling him again for another hour and a half. That was just astonishing. He hasn't got a clue what he's doing out there.

 

"No walk Broad"? Sorry, but who gives a shit? What on earth is the difference between that and Australia loudly appealing for all sorts of things they know aren't out? They even appealed and celebrated Pietersen's apparent 'dismissal' when the bails had simply been blown off by the wind. That's cheating as well; all cricket sides are always at it.

 

KP? Without him, we sure as heck ain't got much. I think it's nuts that he's being singled out too. He has no support from the tail; none at all, which is why he went for one shot too many. He wouldn't have done that if he'd had any confidence they were even capable of blocking the Aussie bowlers out - but they're not. Our tail is a joke: and if you consider that 1-6 on both sides have batted close to identically, that's the key to all this. Which means it's the bowlers who've been the true weak link: our bowlers can't bat to save their lives, and they've allowed the Australian tail to pour on the runs.

 

Why has this happened? Because they've not been rotated. Instead of playing Tremlett at the Oval in a dead rubber, England left him out, took him to Australia... and suddenly discovered he'd lost two yards of pace. Meanwhile, Onions sat back home twiddling his thumbs; and we've not had the balls to actually back our squad selection and give Finn or Rankin a go. So it's been same old, same old; the bowlers are all knackered. Physically and mentally shot by absolutely appalling management.

 

PS. Stokes, not good enough?! What more does he have to do? That century on a pitch from hell in Perth was phenomenal. He's been the only real find of this tour.

[shaun.lawson]

Carberry- whilst not outstanding has done ok. Compton was dropped for a reason. That reason was he's not good enough.

 

Prior- should never have been dropped. Out of form yes but averages over 42 and always bats for the team.

 

 

Can you explain to me how in the name of the wee man Compton, averaging 35 on his debut tour in India, then scoring two centuries in two Tests in New Zealand, "isn't good enough" because of the mere two Tests which followed that; while Carberry - one half century in four games, and crawling to a quite unbelievable halt on a pitch doing nothing - is good enough?

 

As for Prior: he's shattered. Keep picking a shattered man, and it'll only get worse. He had to be rested for his own sake.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

Can you explain to me how in the name of the wee man Compton, averaging 35 on his debut tour in India, then scoring two centuries in two Tests in New Zealand, "isn't good enough" because of the mere two Tests which followed that; while Carberry - no half centuries at all in four games, and crawling to a quite unbelievable halt on a pitch doing nothing - is good enough?

 

As for Prior: he's shattered. Keep picking a shattered man, and it'll only get worse. He had to be rested for his own sake.

You obviously missed Carberry making 60 then.

[shaun.lawson]

You obviously missed Carberry making 60 then.

 

Apart from that.

 

Did it do his confidence any good at all though? No, he's going backwards. This is a guy who scores for fun at all other levels of the game; then he gets in the Test side, and he suddenly makes Geoff Boycott look like Michael Slater.

[Tommy Wiseau]

Carberry is at an age as well where he won't be given any time, even if he were good enough. 33 is no age to be strolling about with batting averages of 30 on great pitches.

[DETTY29]

So in the final test on a spinning Perth pitch going are England to continue with Root as no.1 spinner with Panesar chastised as he is hopeless in the field.

 

Maybe they should try him at first slip?

[shaun.lawson]

So in the final test on a spinning Perth pitch going are England to continue with Root as no.1 spinner with Panesar chastised as he is hopeless in the field.

 

Maybe they should try him at first slip?

 

 

Touche. I've never understood why, when we know Panesar can't throw, we don't have him close in to begin with. Just sending him out to stand near the boundary rope invites shots in his direction - then we act all angry and surprised when he can't do what he's never been able to do.

 

His handling by his captain yesterday was something else, though. The worst man-management by an England captain I've seen since that clueless tit Atherton declared with Hick 98 not out.

[DETTY29]

 

Touche. I've never understood why, when we know Panesar can't throw, we don't have him close in to begin with. Just sending him out to stand near the boundary rope invites shots in his direction - then we act all angry and surprised when he can't do what he's never been able to do.

 

His handling by his captain yesterday was something else, though. The worst man-management by an England captain I've seen since that clueless tit Atherton declared with Hick 98 not out.

And Anderson and I think Root had a howler or two too.

 

I was half joking, but similarly if he can't cover the ground quickly or throw long distances then one of the slips must be considered.

[DETTY29]

So in the final test on a spinning Perth pitch going are England to continue with Root as no.1 spinner with Panesar chastised as he is hopeless in the field.

 

Maybe they should try him at first slip?

Edit - should be Sydney pitch.

[The Mighty Thor]

There's an awful lot that's wrong in the above, I think. Did England ever believe they were that good? In 2011, when we thrashed Australia and India and were number 1 in the world, sure; and we were still a very good side when winning in India, English cricket's finest achievement in decades. But not since then: I think this side knew it had problems, and there were more questions over its make-up going into this series than Australia's: which is incredible given how poor they'd been until only a couple of matches earlier.

 

If Australia hadn't been in a God awful mess, they wouldn't have fired Mickey Arthurs mid-series, would they? But they did, and Lehmann's done a wonderful job creating a superb team ethic in next to no time. England, meanwhile, weren't over-confident or anything like it; it's the opposite. These players have no confidence at all, and have played far, far too much top level cricket in recent years. It catches up with you: and I'd say it's hit all the key players at pretty much the same time.

 

Cook? Cook has no authority over the side, and if he wasn't a bad captain, he wouldn't have set the most scandalously negative field imaginable on the third morning, allowing Australia's last wicket partnership to pile on 40 runs out of nothing; he wouldn't have been bowling his mate Root instead of Panesar (Warne couldn't believe this: it destroyed any confidence Monty might've had, and smacked of the cliques which this England side is riven with); and he wouldn't have responded to Broad drawing an edge and looking dangerous by... not bowling him again for another hour and a half. That was just astonishing. He hasn't got a clue what he's doing out there.

 

"No walk Broad"? Sorry, but who gives a shit? What on earth is the difference between that and Australia loudly appealing for all sorts of things they know aren't out? They even appealed and celebrated Pietersen's apparent 'dismissal' when the bails had simply been blown off by the wind. That's cheating as well; all cricket sides are always at it.

 

KP? Without him, we sure as heck ain't got much. I think it's nuts that he's being singled out too. He has no support from the tail; none at all, which is why he went for one shot too many. He wouldn't have done that if he'd had any confidence they were even capable of blocking the Aussie bowlers out - but they're not. Our tail is a joke: and if you consider that 1-6 on both sides have batted close to identically, that's the key to all this. Which means it's the bowlers who've been the true weak link: our bowlers can't bat to save their lives, and they've allowed the Australian tail to pour on the runs.

 

Why has this happened? Because they've not been rotated. Instead of playing Tremlett at the Oval in a dead rubber, England left him out, took him to Australia... and suddenly discovered he'd lost two yards of pace. Meanwhile, Onions sat back home twiddling his thumbs; and we've not had the balls to actually back our squad selection and give Finn or Rankin a go. So it's been same old, same old; the bowlers are all knackered. Physically and mentally shot by absolutely appalling management.

 

PS. Stokes, not good enough?! What more does he have to do? That century on a pitch from hell in Perth was phenomenal. He's been the only real find of this tour.

So this summer after dispatching the Aussie's 3-0 this England team didn't think they only had to rock up to the Gabba to wipe the floor with them again? Every commentator barring perhaps one or two thought so. They just couldn't see how an Aussie side in complete disarray would offer up an kind of challenge.Had there been the big questions there would have been the big changes, there wasn't and there haven't been.

 

The Aussie team wasn't in a god awful mess, Mickey Arthurs was. Senior test players doing written homework at night? David Warner shouldn't have lamped Joe Root he should've decked Mickey Arthurs. Lehman has had the easiest job to pull together his side for a home series against a vastly over-rated and over-confident England team.

 

I still rate Cook. Yes he's had his arse handed to him here but I don't think he's as bad a captain as is being made out. He's been captain for 18 months or so recording a series win in India and a home Ashes series. You mention a team riven with cliques? who is behind these? seniors players? KP? Bell?

 

Talking of the bold boy KP, He's all you've got? In that case you're well and truly stuffed. KP goes for one shot too many because he's KP and that's what KP does. he's not a team player. If this England side are on the precipice of a slide down the rankings and a period in the doldrums and there's any chance this will impact on brand KP then KP will announce his retirement from international cricket tout de suite.

 

I'll give you the Broad one. I really really can't stand him.

 

The bowlers are the weak link? The bowlers have been the engine of England's success in the last 18 months. Are they that tired? I get the batting angle but to be fair they've come up against Mitchell Johnson in the finest of form. He's been unplayable at times on the pitches down there.

 

So what's to change all this Shaun? World beaters 18 months ago are now a dispirited rabble, riven with cliques being 'directed' badly by a token captain overseen by shit management?

 

If you were to change sports from Cricket to Football, cast Australia as Hearts and England as Hibs then your post above looks like one of the collective wailings usually found on .net around an hour after we've done them over again.

 

I hope England get at least a draw in Sydney or we'll need to take your shoelaces and belt from you.

[shaun.lawson]

So this summer after dispatching the Aussie's 3-0 this England team didn't think they only had to rock up to the Gabba to wipe the floor with them again? Every commentator barring perhaps one or two thought so. They just couldn't see how an Aussie side in complete disarray would offer up an kind of challenge.Had there been the big questions there would have been the big changes, there wasn't and there haven't been.

 

The Aussie team wasn't in a god awful mess, Mickey Arthurs was. Senior test players doing written homework at night? David Warner shouldn't have lamped Joe Root he should've decked Mickey Arthurs. Lehman has had the easiest job to pull together his side for a home series against a vastly over-rated and over-confident England team.

 

I still rate Cook. Yes he's had his arse handed to him here but I don't think he's as bad a captain as is being made out. He's been captain for 18 months or so recording a series win in India and a home Ashes series. You mention a team riven with cliques? who is behind these? seniors players? KP? Bell?

 

Talking of the bold boy KP, He's all you've got? In that case you're well and truly stuffed. KP goes for one shot too many because he's KP and that's what KP does. he's not a team player. If this England side are on the precipice of a slide down the rankings and a period in the doldrums and there's any chance this will impact on brand KP then KP will announce his retirement from international cricket tout de suite.

 

I'll give you the Broad one. I really really can't stand him.

 

The bowlers are the weak link? The bowlers have been the engine of England's success in the last 18 months. Are they that tired? I get the batting angle but to be fair they've come up against Mitchell Johnson in the finest of form. He's been unplayable at times on the pitches down there.

 

So what's to change all this Shaun? World beaters 18 months ago are now a dispirited rabble, riven with cliques being 'directed' badly by a token captain overseen by shit management?

 

If you were to change sports from Cricket to Football, cast Australia as Hearts and England as Hibs then your post above looks like one of the collective wailings usually found on .net around an hour after we've done them over again.

 

I hope England get at least a draw in Sydney or we'll need to take your shoelaces and belt from you.

 

No, they didn't. I think people just invent this stuff when it comes to English sporting teams: I really do. Whenever we lose badly at anything, it's always "you were over-confident. You were arrogant". No: whatever confidence we had was very brittle, with key players having played themselves out of form late in the summer. But big changes were never going to happen ahead of an Ashes tour: that's as big a test as there is, and there isn't a country on the planet which changes a national team wholesale when it's still winning, even if it's gradually declining.

 

That decline has turned into a complete collapse for various reasons: captain, coach and too much cricket all part of it; ditto a marvellously hungry, reborn Australian side. But in essence, too many key players have suddenly all gone over the hill at the same time: so many are all suffering from the same malaise.

 

"The Aussie team wasn't in a God awful mess"? Is this a serious comment?! They lost six Test matches in a row and were winless in nine going into this series. Australia, for heavens sake! The Aussie public couldn't believe the fiasco before Lehmann was appointed, as I'm sure Aussie residents on here will confirm. The team was a national embarrassment. Now, it's England who are.

 

Cook, of course, inherited a side which reached its peak and number 1 in the world under Strauss. There was bound to be at least some momentum from that: but the signs were there even in India, and much more so in New Zealand. Then 3-0 v Aus flattered us like hell: neither side was any good really, but they were a shambles at Lord's, and spent the rest of the series in rebuild mode, eyeing the return. Nice position to have been in, that.

 

And yes, the bowlers have been the weak(est) link. They're one-dimensional, knackered and have been given no rest at all. You can't just keep picking the same three or four mostly failing bowlers every time and expect to get away with it; but that goes back to the selectors, who brought alternatives on tour but haven't used them. KP had little choice going for the shot he did on 49: our tail immediately proved why. Out of interest, when Kapil Dev hit four sixes in a row to save the follow-on for India at Lord's in 1990, and Narendra Hirwani was out next ball, therefore immediately vindicating him, did you think that was "all about Kapil Dev" too? Or is that different, because he didn't play for England?

 

What's to change things now? Nothing that I can see. I think we should rip it all up and start again: new captain, new coach, new assistants, and practically half a new team. This is the end of a long, long cycle in English cricket: after over a decade of disgraceful shambles in the late 80s and most of the 90s, first Hussain dragged us to 3rd in the world; then Vaughan got us to 2nd; then Strauss got us to 1st. It was an exhilarating journey lasting fully 15 years; but it's over now. Time to rebuild, time for transition; time for a prolonged spell back in the wilderness, I think.

 

PS. One other thing. I love how the triumphalist English media are somehow the same as the England team in your eyes. What a load of nonsense. Ian Botham says we'll win 5-0, so the England team was clearly arrogant? No: Ian Botham was. That's it.

[flecktimus]

No, they didn't. I think people just invent this stuff when it comes to English sporting teams: I really do. Whenever we lose badly at anything, it's always "you were over-confident. You were arrogant". No: whatever confidence we had was very brittle, with key players having played themselves out of form late in the summer. But big changes were never going to happen ahead of an Ashes tour: that's as big a test as there is, and there isn't a country on the planet which changes a national team wholesale when it's still winning, even if it's gradually declining.

 

That decline has turned into a complete collapse for various reasons: captain, coach and too much cricket all part of it; ditto a marvellously hungry, reborn Australian side. But in essence, too many key players have suddenly all gone over the hill at the same time: so many are all suffering from the same malaise.

 

"The Aussie team wasn't in a God awful mess"? Is this a serious comment?! They lost six Test matches in a row and were winless in nine going into this series. Australia, for heavens sake! The Aussie public couldn't believe the fiasco before Lehmann was appointed, as I'm sure Aussie residents on here will confirm. The team was a national embarrassment. Now, it's England who are.

 

Cook, of course, inherited a side which reached its peak and number 1 in the world under Strauss. There was bound to be at least some momentum from that: but the signs were there even in India, and much more so in New Zealand. Then 3-0 v Aus flattered us like hell: neither side was any good really, but they were a shambles at Lord's, and spent the rest of the series in rebuild mode, eyeing the return. Nice position to have been in, that.

 

And yes, the bowlers have been the weak(est) link. They're one-dimensional, knackered and have been given no rest at all. You can't just keep picking the same three or four mostly failing bowlers every time and expect to get away with it; but that goes back to the selectors, who brought alternatives on tour but haven't used them. KP had little choice going for the shot he did on 49: our tail immediately proved why. Out of interest, when Kapil Dev hit four sixes in a row to save the follow-on for India at Lord's in 1990, and Narendra Hirwani was out next ball, therefore immediately vindicating him, did you think that was "all about Kapil Dev" too? Or is that different, because he didn't play for England?

 

What's to change things now? Nothing that I can see. I think we should rip it all up and start again: new captain, new coach, new assistants, and practically half a new team. This is the end of a long, long cycle in English cricket: after over a decade of disgraceful shambles in the late 80s and most of the 90s, first Hussain dragged us to 3rd in the world; then Vaughan got us to 2nd; then Strauss got us to 1st. It was an exhilarating journey lasting fully 15 years; but it's over now. Time to rebuild, time for transition; time for a prolonged spell back in the wilderness, I think.

 

PS. One other thing. I love how the triumphalist English media are somehow the same as the England team in your eyes. What a load of nonsense. Ian Botham says we'll win 5-0, so the England team was clearly arrogant? No: Ian Botham was. That's it.

 

Mcgrath

Warne

Gilliespie

 

Garner

Holding

Marshall

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

Mcgrath

Warne

Gilliespie

 

Garner

Holding

Marshall

Dizzy was not a mainstay of that Aussie attack. Stuart Clark would have been if he could have stayed fit.

 

The Windies were the exception to every rule.

[Coco]

Dizzy was not a mainstay of that Aussie attack. Stuart Clark would have been if he could have stayed fit.

 

The Windies were the exception to every rule.

 

Gillespie 259 Test wickets - plus Brett Lee 310 Test wickets. Those 2 plus McGrath and Warne were a fairly consistent Test attack? With the likes of Clark and McGill as backups?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

Gillespie 259 Test wickets - plus Brett Lee 310 Test wickets. Those 2 plus McGrath and Warne were a fairly consistent Test attack? With the likes of Clark and McGill as backups?

Spread over what time frame though? Anderson has over 300 wickets for England but it is only in the last few years that he established himself in the side. Lee appeared more regularly than Gillespie, as did Merv Hughes.