Official Ashes 2013/14 Thread

[Coco]

Spread over what time frame though? Anderson has over 300 wickets for England but it is only in the last few years that he established himself in the side. Lee appeared more regularly than Gillespie, as did Merv Hughes.

 

Have no stats but if I'm thinking of the early noughties great side the batting lineup ends Gilchrest, Warne, Gillespie, Lee, McGrath.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

 

 

No, they didn't. I think people just invent this stuff when it comes to English sporting teams: I really do. Whenever we lose badly at anything, it's always "you were over-confident. You were arrogant". No: whatever confidence we had was very brittle, with key players having played themselves out of form late in the summer. But big changes were never going to happen ahead of an Ashes tour: that's as big a test as there is, and there isn't a country on the planet which changes a national team wholesale when it's still winning, even if it's gradually declining.

 

That decline has turned into a complete collapse for various reasons: captain, coach and too much cricket all part of it; ditto a marvellously hungry, reborn Australian side. But in essence, too many key players have suddenly all gone over the hill at the same time: so many are all suffering from the same malaise.

 

"The Aussie team wasn't in a God awful mess"? Is this a serious comment?! They lost six Test matches in a row and were winless in nine going into this series. Australia, for heavens sake! The Aussie public couldn't believe the fiasco before Lehmann was appointed, as I'm sure Aussie residents on here will confirm. The team was a national embarrassment. Now, it's England who are.

 

Cook, of course, inherited a side which reached its peak and number 1 in the world under Strauss. There was bound to be at least some momentum from that: but the signs were there even in India, and much more so in New Zealand. Then 3-0 v Aus flattered us like hell: neither side was any good really, but they were a shambles at Lord's, and spent the rest of the series in rebuild mode, eyeing the return. Nice position to have been in, that.

 

And yes, the bowlers have been the weak(est) link. They're one-dimensional, knackered and have been given no rest at all. You can't just keep picking the same three or four mostly failing bowlers every time and expect to get away with it; but that goes back to the selectors, who brought alternatives on tour but haven't used them. KP had little choice going for the shot he did on 49: our tail immediately proved why. Out of interest, when Kapil Dev hit four sixes in a row to save the follow-on for India at Lord's in 1990, and Narendra Hirwani was out next ball, therefore immediately vindicating him, did you think that was "all about Kapil Dev" too? Or is that different, because he didn't play for England?

 

What's to change things now? Nothing that I can see. I think we should rip it all up and start again: new captain, new coach, new assistants, and practically half a new team. This is the end of a long, long cycle in English cricket: after over a decade of disgraceful shambles in the late 80s and most of the 90s, first Hussain dragged us to 3rd in the world; then Vaughan got us to 2nd; then Strauss got us to 1st. It was an exhilarating journey lasting fully 15 years; but it's over now. Time to rebuild, time for transition; time for a prolonged spell back in the wilderness, I think.

 

PS. One other thing. I love how the triumphalist English media are somehow the same as the England team in your eyes. What a load of nonsense. Ian Botham says we'll win 5-0, so the England team was clearly arrogant? No: Ian Botham was. That's it.

 

Lawson, even Boycott is saying that this England team have too high an opinion of themselves. The problems are obviously more complicated than that but the woeful start to this series and England's complete inability to improve at any stage smacks of complacency.

[CJGJ]

The usual cricket experts both professional and press are always fantastic............... after the event.

 

A marvelleous series of tell all tales and interpretation of events follows pretending to know all the circumstances surrounding the failure.

 

If only they had been bright enough to tell the world before the series started what they knew........................amazing that not one of them was able to tell the cricketing public in advance.

 

The reality is usually a lot more simple than the usual blurb from the experts.

 

Players are out of form

Players have peaked and are now on the slide

Pitches are 'doctored' to suit the home team

The opposition learn from experience, change tactics and players to counter the opposition

Playing away is always more difficult in all sports

[babywhalo]

 

 

Mcgrath

Warne

Gilliespie

 

Garner

Holding

Marshall

 

When we're any of those 6 mostly failing?

[Tazio]

 

 

Lawson, even Boycott is saying that this England team have too high an opinion of themselves. The problems are obviously more complicated than that but the woeful start to this series and England's complete inability to improve at any stage smacks of complacency.

 

And what the hell does Boycott know compared to Shaun Lawson? Where are the stats and dates Geoffrey?

[shaun.lawson]

Mcgrath

Warne

Gilliespie

 

Garner

Holding

Marshall

 

'Mostly failing'.

[shaun.lawson]

Lawson, even Boycott is saying that this England team have too high an opinion of themselves. The problems are obviously more complicated than that but the woeful start to this series and England's complete inability to improve at any stage smacks of complacency.

 

I know Boycott's saying it. It's classic Boycott rent-a-quote "they don't want it enough!" over-simplification, playing to the crowd.

 

And no: England's complete inability to improve at any stage smacks of the total opposite. If we'd played badly in the first Test, then improved, that'd point to complacency. Instead, we're plumbing ever greater depths: which shows these players can't get back to the level they were once at. They're shot to pieces.

 

Hearts, of course, have been largely unable to improve over the vast bulk of this season. Does that "smack of complacency" then? I mean, seriously: think about it.

[shaun.lawson]

And what the hell does Boycott know compared to Shaun Lawson? Where are the stats and dates Geoffrey?

 

Can you explain to me how a team which gets worse with every subsequent match, to the extent that it's started to resemble a pub team, is a sign of 'complacency' please?

 

Do you think any cricket side in the history of the game has been 'complacent' when 3-0 down with two to play?

[shaun.lawson]

The usual cricket experts both professional and press are always fantastic............... after the event.

 

A marvelleous series of tell all tales and interpretation of events follows pretending to know all the circumstances surrounding the failure.

 

If only they had been bright enough to tell the world before the series started what they knew........................amazing that not one of them was able to tell the cricketing public in advance.

 

The reality is usually a lot more simple than the usual blurb from the experts.

 

Players are out of form

Players have peaked and are now on the slide

Pitches are 'doctored' to suit the home team

The opposition learn from experience, change tactics and players to counter the opposition

Playing away is always more difficult in all sports

 

I agree with all of this, incidentally.

 

And if you turn to page 1, I was one of the few who predicted that Australia would win the Ashes back, and cited the obvious change in mood in both camps before the series even began. I didn't think they'd win them back like this though!

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

I know Boycott's saying it. It's classic Boycott rent-a-quote "they don't want it enough!" over-simplification, playing to the crowd.

 

And no: England's complete inability to improve at any stage smacks of the total opposite. If we'd played badly in the first Test, then improved, that'd point to complacency. Instead, we're plumbing ever greater depths: which shows these players can't get back to the level they were once at. They're shot to pieces.

 

Hearts, of course, have been largely unable to improve over the vast bulk of this season. Does that "smack of complacency" then? I mean, seriously: think about it.

 

That's a ridiculous comparison. Did England lose the bulk of their established players before they went to Australia? Were they all replaced by junior players with nil or next to nil experience? Were they also managed by a raw, untried and untested coach who'd been in the job for a few months? Give over.

 

I'd question England's preparation and I'd question their application from the get-go, hence why I think the suggestion of arrogance/complacency is right on the money. There's one team with a plan out there and it's not the English. The reason they haven't improved and are now "shot to pieces" as you put it is purely down to pressure - they were woeful in the first Test, realised that they might be in trouble and completely lost their bottle. Not as good as they thought they were.

 

Look at Broad wandering into the presser with a copy of the Brisbane paper after the first day of the first day. Day one of the first fecking test and Broad thinks he's put the Australian media in their place. Jesus wept. Listen as well to some of the comments from the English players as they were getting battered (Carberry's in particular are a comedy fest of positive nonsense). As a group they've been well and truly shown up.

 

P.S. - Boycott. Interesting to see Pietersen prove him right with another laughable dismissal in the last test. A mug indeed.

[Kenny ******* Powers]

 

 

Can you explain to me how in the name of the wee man Compton, averaging 35 on his debut tour in India, then scoring two centuries in two Tests in New Zealand, "isn't good enough" because of the mere two Tests which followed that; while Carberry - one half century in four games, and crawling to a quite unbelievable halt on a pitch doing nothing - is good enough?

 

As for Prior: he's shattered. Keep picking a shattered man, and it'll only get worse. He had to be rested for his own sake.

 

The fact that he averages 30 in his 9 test career suggests to me he isn't good enough.

 

He scored 1 half century in India I think. Then 2 century's against a side ranked 8th out of the 10 test playing nations. He then scored a grand total of 39 runs in 4 innings against the same opposition.

 

For what it's worth Carberry may not be the long term answer but he deserved his chance. In my opinion of course.

[132goals1958]

That's a ridiculous comparison. Did England lose the bulk of their established players before they went to Australia? Were they all replaced by junior players with nil or next to nil experience? Were they also managed by a raw, untried and untested coach who'd been in the job for a few months? Give over.

 

I'd question England's preparation and I'd question their application from the get-go, hence why I think the suggestion of arrogance/complacency is right on the money. There's one team with a plan out there and it's not the English. The reason they haven't improved and are now "shot to pieces" as you put it is purely down to pressure - they were woeful in the first Test, realised that they might be in trouble and completely lost their bottle. Not as good as they thought they were.

 

Look at Broad wandering into the presser with a copy of the Brisbane paper after the first day of the first day. Day one of the first fecking test and Broad thinks he's put the Australian media in their place. Jesus wept. Listen as well to some of the comments from the English players as they were getting battered (Carberry's in particular are a comedy fest of positive nonsense). As a group they've been well and truly shown up.

 

P.S. - Boycott. Interesting to see Pietersen prove him right with another laughable dismissal in the last test. A mug indeed.

 

I agree with most of your observations, but for once on this tour I wouldn't attach too much blame to Pietersen who had effectively run out of partners. Thought he played a responsible innings and on this occasion would point the finger at Broad for a poor shot choice.

[shaun.lawson]

I agree with most of your observations, but for once on this tour I wouldn't attach too much blame to Pietersen who had effectively run out of partners. Thought he played a responsible innings and on this occasion would point the finger at Broad for a poor shot choice.

 

Exactly. But Pietersen's always been an easy target: we've never truly embraced him, and always mistrust his motives.

 

Only in England would one of the only two batsmen to actually approach his innings completely correctly - calmly, sensibly, but not over-cautiously - then get it in the neck because he ran out of partners and was forced into doing something about it. That's not his fault. The stick he gets is unbelievable.

 

PS. Dusk Til Dawn: I'd question England's mental state, period. It's been one series too far for a whole nucleus of players. And that points to not complacency, but straightforward exhaustion and burnout. Trott and Swann's departures, and the decline not just in Prior's play, but his whole persona over recent months, bear that out completely.

[flecktimus]

When we're any of those 6 mostly failing?

 

That was my point. They didn't fail they played great cricket until they retired.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

I agree with most of your observations, but for once on this tour I wouldn't attach too much blame to Pietersen who had effectively run out of partners. Thought he played a responsible innings and on this occasion would point the finger at Broad for a poor shot choice.

KP batted correctly at the G, which makes you ask WTF he was doing in the other three tests. Get rid.

[Sydney]

No, they didn't. I think people just invent this stuff when it comes to English sporting teams: I really do. Whenever we lose badly at anything, it's always "you were over-confident. You were arrogant". No: whatever confidence we had was very brittle, with key players having played themselves out of form late in the summer. But big changes were never going to happen ahead of an Ashes tour: that's as big a test as there is, and there isn't a country on the planet which changes a national team wholesale when it's still winning, even if it's gradually declining.

 

PS. One other thing. I love how the triumphalist English media are somehow the same as the England team in your eyes. What a load of nonsense. Ian Botham says we'll win 5-0, so the England team was clearly arrogant? No: Ian Botham was. That's it.

 

To quote Aggers (hopefully he's not seen as a rent-a-quote like the other cricket observers such as Botham and Boycott):

 

The views of those connected with first-class cricket should be listened to, as well as those of the media, the people who have watched England play over the last few years.

 

"We write on this team every day. Sometimes we are right, sometimes we are wrong, but we do watch a lot of cricket and can offer an opinion on the direction in which England should go. Ultimately, there will have to be lessons learned from this tour.

 

Their 3-0 victory during the summer was probably an unfair reflection of the balance of power but England were the better side and deserved to win - although they clearly believed they were better than they were."

 

Now Shaun, you may well be better connected to the England cricket team than I think you are, but I also think that these guys (Aggers, Botham and Boycott), who've played first class cricket, international cricket, captained their countries, watched and analysed England for years, know and are accepted into the inner-circle of players, might have an inkling of what their talking about.

 

In my opinion:

• The team thought it would be easier to win the Ashes than it actually was (complacency) as they thought Oz were struggling for form, and they'd only just recently won the series 3-0.
  
• England have tried to play the same attritional cricket they always go for (complacency) and have struggled to change tactics during matches.
  
• Australia have played better than anyone thought they would.
  
• England have played worse than anyone thought they would.
  

The performances have obviously had a much bigger impact on the result than the complacency, but a less complacent team would have had better plans B + C in place when plan A didn't work.

[ToadKiller Dog]

England under Capt Cook are reverting back to their traditional conservative nature , Cook as a captain reminds me a bit of Atherton as capt caution first .

Vaughan and Strauss were more attacking tactically .

 

Australia under Lehman have found their traditional aggressive style even if they still are not a great side that was enough to destroy the current nervy unadventorous England team .

If Lehman had been appointed earlier Australia might have won in the summer also .

 

To win in Australia you need to be aggressive not defensive and England were not even good at being defensive .

 

 

[Harry Palmer]

England to give 3 players their debuts?

 

Ballance, Borthwick and Rankin.

 

Is Rankin the Irish boy?

[The Mighty Thor]

No, they didn't. I think people just invent this stuff when it comes to English sporting teams: I really do. Whenever we lose badly at anything, it's always "you were over-confident. You were arrogant". No: whatever confidence we had was very brittle, with key players having played themselves out of form late in the summer. But big changes were never going to happen ahead of an Ashes tour: that's as big a test as there is, and there isn't a country on the planet which changes a national team wholesale when it's still winning, even if it's gradually declining.

 

That decline has turned into a complete collapse for various reasons: captain, coach and too much cricket all part of it; ditto a marvellously hungry, reborn Australian side. But in essence, too many key players have suddenly all gone over the hill at the same time: so many are all suffering from the same malaise.

 

"The Aussie team wasn't in a God awful mess"? Is this a serious comment?! They lost six Test matches in a row and were winless in nine going into this series. Australia, for heavens sake! The Aussie public couldn't believe the fiasco before Lehmann was appointed, as I'm sure Aussie residents on here will confirm. The team was a national embarrassment. Now, it's England who are.

 

Cook, of course, inherited a side which reached its peak and number 1 in the world under Strauss. There was bound to be at least some momentum from that: but the signs were there even in India, and much more so in New Zealand. Then 3-0 v Aus flattered us like hell: neither side was any good really, but they were a shambles at Lord's, and spent the rest of the series in rebuild mode, eyeing the return. Nice position to have been in, that.

 

And yes, the bowlers have been the weak(est) link. They're one-dimensional, knackered and have been given no rest at all. You can't just keep picking the same three or four mostly failing bowlers every time and expect to get away with it; but that goes back to the selectors, who brought alternatives on tour but haven't used them. KP had little choice going for the shot he did on 49: our tail immediately proved why. Out of interest, when Kapil Dev hit four sixes in a row to save the follow-on for India at Lord's in 1990, and Narendra Hirwani was out next ball, therefore immediately vindicating him, did you think that was "all about Kapil Dev" too? Or is that different, because he didn't play for England?

 

What's to change things now? Nothing that I can see. I think we should rip it all up and start again: new captain, new coach, new assistants, and practically half a new team. This is the end of a long, long cycle in English cricket: after over a decade of disgraceful shambles in the late 80s and most of the 90s, first Hussain dragged us to 3rd in the world; then Vaughan got us to 2nd; then Strauss got us to 1st. It was an exhilarating journey lasting fully 15 years; but it's over now. Time to rebuild, time for transition; time for a prolonged spell back in the wilderness, I think.

 

PS. One other thing. I love how the triumphalist English media are somehow the same as the England team in your eyes. What a load of nonsense. Ian Botham says we'll win 5-0, so the England team was clearly arrogant? No: Ian Botham was. That's it.

 

Just caught this now ahead of tonight's game.

 

I'm sorry Shaun but this England side swaggered into the colony thinking it was going to be an easy job and back home with the urn. Day 1 of the first test probably stoked that to the extent that when day 2 happened there was a collective WTF from which they never recovered. Call it over-confidence, arrogance or whatever you like. The fact there were next to no changes to the touring side evidences this arrogance. Change players? why? we pumped them 3-0 on the back of a series hammering the last time.

 

I genuinely don't think the Aussie side was a god awful mess, I think the management of that side (by Mickey Arthurs) was appalling, which turned a not brilliant, but workmanlike side into a utterly disjointed, dispirited group of individuals.

 

KP - Shaun KP's decision making is woeful. He can easily play himself into a game and score nicely but you just know that a spell of bowling in the right area and you'll get the real KP to come out chasing something he shouldn't.

I'm not really sure what the Kapil Dev comparison is or the relevance of whether he's English or not. It's not about nationality, it's about critical thinking in a tight game and giving your wicket away to expose the tail. If we're discussing nationality then technically KP's a Saffer anyway.

 

Success in international cricket is cyclical anyway, although the top sides really don't suffer the troughs quite as badly as England do but then again the highs and lows in English cricket are amplified by a fairly hysterical media to the point where England are bi-polar between world-beaters and a perpetual embarrassment when the reality is probably something in-between.

 

I'm not really sure whether your last comment is a shit attempt to turn it into an anti-England thing but horse on anyway. Ian Botham's arrogance is Stuart Broad's stupidity in the day 1 press conference with a newspaper in his back pocket. That's came right back and is biting his arse every time he takes to the field in Australia.

 

Tonight? England need to bat second. If the Aussies get them in first on a slightly green pitch it could be a short first day with Johnson & Siddle attacking.

I reckon either way there'll be at least 10 wickets tonight with anything over 250 good going.

[Harry Palmer]

That's not confirmed yet....

 

Bit late to be chucking them in but at least it adds some interest.

 

Root out though, maybe.

 

Sky Sports News ?@SkySportsNews2m

Gary Ballance, Scott Borthwick & Boyd Rankin make test debuts for England in final Ashes test

[Harry Palmer]

England win the toss and choose to bowl.

 

Australia unchanged.

 

First time ever that's happened.

 

BBC TMS ?@bbctms2m

Australia unchanged. So for the first time in their history they use only 11 players for a 5 match series

[Boof]

Warner gone for 16 bowled Broad

22-1

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Bowled the correct way to that DB Warner.

[Harry Palmer]

Clarke gone...c Bell b Stokes

 

78-3

[Harry Palmer]

Anderson wicket.

 

Watson lbw.

 

94-4

 

England will chuck it away.

[Sydney]

First session to England. I'm still not optimistic though.

 

Wouldn't surprise me if Haddin was to end up on 288 not out, then England to get to 65 for 1 and then collapse all out for 135.

 

But.......if England win the toss, England win the test. Let's see if it holds true.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Obviously need more Ulstermen in the team. Rankin has made the difference.

[Kenny ******* Powers]

Bailey out for 1

 

Aus 97-5

 

Haddin in now. At least 50 at a run a ball?

[Harry Palmer]

Cook nearly fluffed that.

 

Haddin to bat the rest of the day....

[shaun.lawson]

Famous last words, but I genuinely do not expect Australia to recover here. Should be skittled out for 220 at worst IMO.

 

And the reason I think that is that, finally, England have some balance and variation to our attack. Which earlier on, the SKY commentators finally fingered for their utter, laughable ineptitude in this series. No lbws at all in the entire series before Watson's dismissal today; that is disgraceful. Astonishingly few balls which would've hit the wicket too: that is embarrassing and clueless.

 

The selectors, coach and captain are culpable for all of that. And so are our braindead bowlers - who belatedly, are showing what could've happened if they'd been rotated properly when the Ashes were still at stake.

[Sydney]

 

The selectors, coach and captain are culpable for all of that. And so are our braindead bowlers - who belatedly, are showing what could've happened if they'd been rotated properly when the Ashes were still at stake.

 

Was their lack of rotation earlier in the series due to their complacency?..............................

[shaun.lawson]

Was their lack of rotation earlier in the series due to their complacency?..............................

 

EDIT: Ah, I'm with you now. No, it was due to England's complete, miserable inability to do anything else. Grey, conservative thinking is the blight of English team sport, and has been again here - but being scared to take any risks at all does not equate to "complacency". Quite the reverse.

[Sydney]

EDIT: Ah, I'm with you now. No, it was due to England's complete, miserable inability to do anything else. Grey, conservative thinking is the blight of English team sport, and has been again here - but being scared to take any risks at all does not equate to "complacency". Quite the reverse.

 

I see.

 

I mistakenly thought you meant that they had kept trying to play the way that had won them three Ashes series in a row, and had no plan B as they complacently believed their approach would bring them another series just a few months after the last win.

 

I didn't realise that they had come down under paralysed with fear and unable to take risks.

 

If I knew how to do a smiley I would.

 

 

 

But then again, smileys are for complete ******* .

[shaun.lawson]

I see.

 

I mistakenly thought you meant that they had kept trying to play the way that had won them three Ashes series in a row, and had no plan B as they complacently believed their approach would bring them another series just a few months after the last win.

 

I didn't realise that they had come down under paralysed with fear and unable to take risks.

 

If I knew how to do a smiley I would.

 

 

 

But then again, smileys are for complete ******* .

 

 

No, they had no Plan B because they had no Plan B. They've been like rabbits in the headlights throughout the series. Again I cite Swann and Trott's departures as symptomatic of a deeper problem: this side has absolutely been paralysed by fear, and mentally gone for most of the series.

 

We really, really need a wicket within the next 20-25 runs though...

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Rankin injured

[shaun.lawson]

Worried now.

[Chad Sexington]

The Australian counter attack is underway.

 

Not looking so rosey for the poms now.

[shaun.lawson]

Famous last words, but I genuinely do not expect Australia to recover here. Should be skittled out for 220 at worst IMO.

 

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Complacent English arsehole.

[Sydney]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Complacent English arsehole.

 

But at least the TEAM never thought that.

 

Just some rent-a-quote.

[shaun.lawson]

But at least the TEAM never thought that.

 

Just some rent-a-quote.

 

Correct.

[shaun.lawson]

Very, very worried now. This partnership might not merely lead Australia to a respectable total. It might win them the match.

[Chad Sexington]

Haddin and Smith are ragdolling England all over the shop.

[Harry Palmer]

Haddin eh?

 

201-5 @ tea.

[Kenny ******* Powers]

Thank **** for that.

[Sydney]

Got him!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Haddin truly is a c u next Tuesday.

[Harry Palmer]

It's still shite..

 

Haddin 75

 

225-6

 

(97-5) (97-5) (97-5)

[Kenny ******* Powers]

It's still shite..

 

Haddin 75

 

225-6

 

(97-5) (97-5) (97-5)

 

Correct. The damage has been done. Once again England let an opportunity slip because the cant get an average wicket keeper out.

 

Australia will still get at least 300 here.

[shaun.lawson]

Oh, Rankin. Oh, England.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I would like to see Broad or Anderson bowl a couple of bouncers from round the wicket to put the wind up Smith.