Bin Laden dead

[P-Dizzle]

I also saw on the news earlier that the US recovered a surprising amount of intel from his house, it'll be really interesting to see what follows from that.

 

 

I have to say, the conspiracy theories here are laughable. "He's been dead for years", "He's not dead anymore", "Maybe he was dead and the US had him on ice until the economy got worse and to distract us from Obama's birth certificate"

 

I think the 'Don't believe everything you're told' folk need to take some of their own advice. "The world's media is lying to us, a college student in a video told me!"

[Daydream Believer]

Now the Americans admit this bloke was unarmed!

 

 

Knew it. It was an execution, so we'll never see the video.

[wibble]

So now they are admitting that they have already lied to us? These people can't help themselves.

Is it any wonder that no-one believes them?

[Isaac Clarke]

THEY'RE LYING TO US!

 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I also saw on the news earlier that the US recovered a surprising amount of intel from his house, it'll be really interesting to see what follows from that.

 

 

I have to say, the conspiracy theories here are laughable. "He's been dead for years", "He's not dead anymore", "Maybe he was dead and the US had him on ice until the economy got worse and to distract us from Obama's birth certificate"

 

I think the 'Don't believe everything you're told' folk need to take some of their own advice. "The world's media is lying to us, a college student in a video told me!"

On your first paragraph, that is surprising given the building went on fire!

 

On the "conspiracy theory" I've already said I'm happy to admit I'm wrong when the evidence is presented. Still waiting for that

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

So now they are admitting that they have already lied to us? These people can't help themselves.

Is it any wonder that no-one believes them?

You can't say that on this thread. People will think you have tinfoil on your head!

[P-Dizzle]

On your first paragraph, that is surprising given the building went on fire!

 

 

You'll need to run that one past me again.

 

 

 

On the "conspiracy theory" I've already said I'm happy to admit I'm wrong when the evidence is presented. Still waiting for that

 

And that's fine, but what is your reason for thinking that you are being lied to in this case? What is so unbelievable about the story that you find him either being dead for years or still alive more reasonable than what we have been told?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

You'll need to run that one past me again.

 

 

 

 

 

And that's fine, but what is your reason for thinking that you are being lied to in this case? What is so unbelievable about the story that you find him either being dead for years or still alive more reasonable than what we have been told?

On the first part, the limited footage that we've seen shows a fire in the building. Couple that to the fact they had to bail out pretty quickly after the hit.

 

As for the second part, I've already laid that out earlier in the thread.

[makateer]

Jim Corr is exposing the New World Order!

 

http://www.jimcorr.com/

 

He tells it like it is, kids.

[P-Dizzle]

On the first part, the limited footage that we've seen shows a fire in the building. Couple that to the fact they had to bail out pretty quickly after the hit.

 

You mean the one Pakistani journalists were walking about the morning after?

 

Several news reports state that SEAL teams recovered documents, computers and data storage devices from the compound and are already in the hands of US intelligence officals. Or is that all "a little too convenient" as well?

 

 

 

 

You stick with your dollar meltdown/PR exercise theory until something more rational comes along then mate.

[johnjl]

Has nobody thought that perhaps they have him alive and he is currently on-board a ship being waterboarded to the max.

I am quite sure that they'd have liked a chat with the guy before they pop a cap in his ass.

I like this one. Sounds plausible.

[logie green]

just seen the bbc news. there was a corrugated outbuilding with a smoke damaged roof. couldn't see any smoke damage to the main house. was there not a helicopter that crashed - could that not be the source of the fire? i wouldn't be hanging around either if i'd just whacked OBL

[P-Dizzle]

just seen the bbc news. there was a corrugated outbuilding with a smoke damaged roof. couldn't see any smoke damage to the main house. was there not a helicopter that crashed - could that not be the source of the fire? i wouldn't be hanging around either if i'd just whacked OBL

 

There was a place where they burned their rubbish, not sure if that was the outbuilding or not. A helicopter did crash and they blew it up upon leaving the compound. It could well have caused a fire, but the US forces were well on their way by that point.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

You mean the one Pakistani journalists were walking about the morning after?

 

Several news reports state that SEAL teams recovered documents, computers and data storage devices from the compound and are already in the hands of US intelligence officals. Or is that all "a little too convenient" as well?

 

 

 

 

You stick with your dollar meltdown/PR exercise theory until something more rational comes along then mate.

LP, being patronising isn't your strong point. If they have got intel, it's quite an effort given that (a) there was a 40 minute firefight, ( they then bumped off the target and © they had to get out of Dodge.

[girvanjambo]

Now the Americans admit this bloke was unarmed!

 

And they admit he was executed in front of a 13 year old girl, allegedly OBL's daughter. The photos of the dead bloke are "gruesome", admitted by the Yanks own spokesman. The more information released about this whole attack, the worse the Americans look and is currently fuelling the already outraged fires of the muslim extremists.

[P-Dizzle]

LP, being patronising isn't your strong point. If they have got intel, it's quite an effort given that (a) there was a 40 minute firefight, ( they then bumped off the target and ? they had to get out of Dodge.

 

Au contraire.

 

I'm sure it's well beyond the capability of a special forces unit to pick up some papers and a computer after their assault. You don't think they would have been briefed to look for any PCs or things of that nature? Again, why would they claim to have found these things if they had not?

 

 

I didn't know you were so knowledgeable on military assault tactics either, you're like Ross Kemp without the humility.

[Ulysses]

The more information released about this whole attack, the worse the Americans look and is currently fuelling the already outraged fires of the muslim extremists.

 

Americans. Worst. Cover-up. Ever.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Au contraire.

 

I'm sure it's well beyond the capability of a special forces unit to pick up some papers and a computer after their assault. You don't think they would have been briefed to look for any PCs or things of that nature? Again, why would they claim to have found these things if they had not?

You keep thinking that.

 

The point is, if they have got useful intel, it is a very impressive effort given everything else that was going on, don't you think?

[johnjl]

Au contraire.

 

I'm sure it's well beyond the capability of a special forces unit to pick up some papers and a computer after their assault. You don't think they would have been briefed to look for any PCs or things of that nature? Again, why would they claim to have found these things if they had not?

 

Cos bin laden is being tortured on a big boat somewhere and that's where they're getting the info from (out of his head).

 

I mean computers? Who keeps info on computers ?

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Now the Americans admit this bloke was unarmed!

 

 

Doesn't make any difference. They had all the justification they needed and then some to kill him.

[P-Dizzle]

You keep thinking that.

 

The point is, if they have got useful intel, it is a very impressive effort given everything else that was going on, don't you think?

 

No, see my edit.

 

 

What is harder to believe? That the SEAL teams removed electronic equipment and documents from the compound, or that it's all a lie and Osama has been dead for years and this is all a ruse to trick the American public into voting for Obama again.

 

On that point, where did they keep him on ice for all these years? Was it pre-Obama, in which case why didn't Bush do it towards the end of his term and walk out a hero?

[southside1874]

I'm a big believer in the conspiracy theories. I believe the conspiracy theories serve a purpose and that is deception. There is no purpose in pretending he is dead now if he was dead previously. This deception will have to last longer than a year and the chance of someone he knew/knows saying he has been dead for a while is not worth the hassle. if he was dead why not say this when it happened.

 

I'm going with Wibbles post and i think he is still alive. Body at sea and shoot to kill policy doesn't wear with me but it is instrumental in showing him he is not a martyr and he is going to have a slow lingering death if he doesn't co-operate. Its instrumental in showing him what everyone thinks. Bin Laden has been shot in the head and his body is dropped in the ocean. The world moves on and you are written from the history books. The folk that seen you boarding the chopper are all dead. The muslim world are happy you are dead.

 

They knew the guy was in that compound for ages and have been listening to his conversations. They watch the comings and goings and now know their enemy. Bin Laden has not been instrumental in any chaos for a while and thats because they know what he is doing. They also know he has caught wind of this and is ready to make a move, so they pounce.

 

They will strip that guy of any honour before he dies and if there is any sort of movement to make him a martyr, they will release tapes of him denouncing what he done, the same way as hostages denounced the west.

 

I'm very unclear about what Bin laden actually wanted and what his grievance was. Maybe it will all come out in the future.

[The People's Chimp]

No, see my edit.

 

 

What is harder to believe? That the SEAL teams removed electronic equipment and documents from the compound, or that it's all a lie and Osama has been dead for years and this is all a ruse to trick the American public into voting for Obama again.

 

On that point, where did they keep him on ice for all these years? Was it pre-Obama, in which case why didn't Bush do it towards the end of his term and walk out a hero?

 

He was in area 51. Get with it.

[Daydream Believer]

Doesn't make any difference. They had all the justification they needed and then some to kill him.

 

Did they? If he was unarmed and they shot him in cold blood? Even the nazi's got a trial. They clearly never had any permission from Pakistan to be there. What if the UK wanted to question him in relation to the 7/7 bombings? Saddam Hussain stood trial too.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Did they? If he was unarmed and they shot him in cold blood? Even the nazi's got a trial. They clearly never had any permission from Pakistan to be there. What if the UK wanted to question him in relation to the 7/7 bombings? Saddam Hussain stood trial too.

 

 

Of course, there's validity in all of that. I'm normally a liberal kind of dude but I won't lose any sleep over this whatsoever. The 3,000 people who were murdered in September 2001 weren't afforded a 'trial'. The majority of them died in a state of absolute terror and their families will never see them again. The only 'crime' they committed was going to work, trudging into an office or a fire station or wherever, like we all do every single day. It's one of the most heartless things I've ever felt but I'm actually more delighted he was unarmed. I hope his death was even just a hundredth as terrifying and horrific for him as it was for people trapped on the 100th floor of a burning building as it collapsed to the ground.

[johnjl]

Did they? If he was unarmed and they shot him in cold blood? Even the nazi's got a trial. They clearly never had any permission from Pakistan to be there. What if the UK wanted to question him in relation to the 7/7 bombings? Saddam Hussain stood trial too.

Playing by the rules would put those who don't play by the rules at a massive advantage. People get murdered in wars.

[Das Root]

Jim Corr is exposing the New World Order!

 

http://www.jimcorr.com/

 

He tells it like it is, kids.

 

 

This is what happens when you spend your days wanting to pump your sisters.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

No, see my edit.

 

 

What is harder to believe? That the SEAL teams removed electronic equipment and documents from the compound, or that it's all a lie and Osama has been dead for years and this is all a ruse to trick the American public into voting for Obama again.

 

On that point, where did they keep him on ice for all these years? Was it pre-Obama, in which case why didn't Bush do it towards the end of his term and walk out a hero?

Wow, you are now conflating two different things. First off, you can believe what you like but I don't trust a word from the Pentagon without some corroborating evidence.

 

Your next point is that if Bin Laden was already dead where is he buried? I have absolutely no idea but then would the leadership want people to know he was dead? No. So it could be anywhere. You seem to imply that the Americans would say "job done". Why? Bin Laden is or was a useful bogeyman.

 

Now, for argument's sake, let's say this was Bin Laden. What do the Americans gain from this hit? It's hardly a decapitation strategy given that Al-Qaeda is a loose alliance of nutjobs. Will it reduce the terrorist threat? Er, no. So what? Revenge? Great, and then what?

 

Hence my premise that is a fantastic circus amongst the economic decline. Still, Obama is a shoo-in to be re-elected now as well.

[Felix Lighter]

No, see my edit.

 

 

What is harder to believe? That the SEAL teams removed electronic equipment and documents from the compound, or that it's all a lie and Osama has been dead for years and this is all a ruse to trick the American public into voting for Obama again.

 

On that point, where did they keep him on ice for all these years? Was it pre-Obama, in which case why didn't Bush do it towards the end of his term and walk out a hero?

 

The obvious answer is that it Bush was no more in charge back then than Obama is in charge now.

Obama is as much a puppet as Bush was for the men behind the curtain.

 

[The People's Chimp]

This is what happens when you spend your days wanting to pump your sisters.

 

The stock response from everyone, except Maroon Legions, who visits his site is

 

"This is what happens when you spend your days wanting to pump your sisters."

 

The reason this is the stock response is because it's blatantly true in his case.

[Daydream Believer]

Of course, there's validity in all of that. I'm normally a liberal kind of dude but I won't lose any sleep over this whatsoever. The 3,000 people who were murdered in September 2001 weren't afforded a 'trial'. The majority of them died in a state of absolute terror and their families will never see them again. The only 'crime' they committed was going to work, trudging into an office or a fire station or wherever, like we all do every single day. It's one of the most heartless things I've ever felt but I'm actually more delighted he was unarmed. I hope his death was even just a hundredth as terrifying and horrific for him as it was for people trapped on the 100th floor of a burning building as it collapsed to the ground.

 

 

I don't think that there'll be much argument in this case but it does set a dangerous precident. The US have been at it since Castro. Telling other people to play by the rules and then making up their own. Some bloke from the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt was talking about it on Newsnight and he's got a point. These policies just give amunition to people with radical views. I'm sure a lot of the flag burners just don't like the injustice of US policy.

[P-Dizzle]

Wow, you are now conflating two different things. First off, you can believe what you like but I don't trust a word from the Pentagon without some corroborating evidence.

 

Your next point is that if Bin Laden was already dead where is he buried? I have absolutely no idea but then would the leadership want people to know he was dead? No. So it could be anywhere. You seem to imply that the Americans would say "job done". Why? Bin Laden is or was a useful bogeyman.

 

Correct, he was a useful bogeyman, so why would they throw it away now when they had no reason to? Surely they could've kept up such a charade for many years to come if there was no risk of him actually dying because he's been dead for years, like you're suggesting.

 

Now, for argument's sake, let's say this was Bin Laden. What do the Americans gain from this hit? It's hardly a decapitation strategy given that Al-Qaeda is a loose alliance of nutjobs. Will it reduce the terrorist threat? Er, no. So what? Revenge? Great, and then what?

 

Hence my premise that is a fantastic circus amongst the economic decline. Still, Obama is a shoo-in to be re-elected now as well.

 

He clearly wasn't running things like he was 10 years ago, but he was still the figurehead of Islamic extremism.

 

This has been in the works for many months, they saw an opportunity to take down the man that orchestrated the murder of 3000 of their own people. I'd say that's a huge gain.

[Das Root]

The stock response from everyone, except Maroon Legions, who visits his site is

 

"This is what happens when you spend your days wanting to pump your sisters."

 

The reason this is the stock response is because it's blatantly true in his case.

 

 

I feel so ordinary

[Ulysses]

The stock response from everyone, except Maroon Legions, who visits his site is

 

"This is what happens when you spend your days wanting to pump your sisters."

 

The reason this is the stock response is because it's blatantly true in his case.

 

 

 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Correct, he was a useful bogeyman, so why would they throw it away now when they had no reason to? Surely they could've kept up such a charade for many years to come if there was no risk of him actually dying because he's been dead for years, like you're suggesting.

 

 

 

He clearly wasn't running things like he was 10 years ago, but he was still the figurehead of Islamic extremism.

 

This has been in the works for many months, they saw an opportunity to take down the man that orchestrated the murder of 3000 of their own people. I'd say that's a huge gain.

I disagree. In the grand scheme of things, this hit will make not one bit of blind difference to the terrorist threat. What it can do is create leverage for the US to do different things militarily, such as getting out of Afghanistan.

[P-Dizzle]

I disagree. In the grand scheme of things, this hit will make not one bit of blind difference to the terrorist threat. What it can do is create leverage for the US to do different things militarily, such as getting out of Afghanistan.

 

I've never claimed that it will reduce the threat we face from terrorism, I wouldn't be so naive to think that it's all over now. It is good, however, to show that no matter how long it takes these crimes will not go unpunished. That has to be good any way you look at it. It shows that nobody is untouchable and hopefully this is the beginning of widescale dismantling of terrorist organisations.

[Felix Lighter]

Of course, there's validity in all of that. I'm normally a liberal kind of dude but I won't lose any sleep over this whatsoever. The 3,000 people who were murdered in September 2001 weren't afforded a 'trial'. The majority of them died in a state of absolute terror and their families will never see them again. The only 'crime' they committed was going to work, trudging into an office or a fire station or wherever, like we all do every single day. It's one of the most heartless things I've ever felt but I'm actually more delighted he was unarmed. I hope his death was even just a hundredth as terrifying and horrific for him as it was for people trapped on the 100th floor of a burning building as it collapsed to the ground.

 

Indeed,but then the families of those 3,000 victims were also denied a thorough investigation into the events leading up to that day.Infact I'd go as far as saying the 9/11 Commission Report was an insult to the memory of those who died and their families.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbWQ8ItJB-s

[redm]

I'm not up to date with reading on all the news stuff about this but can anyone save me a dig about and tell me how the Pakistani authorities are explaining how they didn't notice he was living in some great big suspicious looking compound about 2 minutes from an important military base? It might already have been covered but I'd rather not read through umpteen pages of conspiracy stuff if at all possible....

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I've never claimed that it will reduce the threat we face from terrorism, I wouldn't be so naive to think that it's all over now. It is good, however, to show that no matter how long it takes these crimes will not go unpunished. That has to be good any way you look at it. It shows that nobody is untouchable and hopefully this is the beginning of widescale dismantling of terrorist organisations.

LP, consider the case if this WASN'T Bin Laden that was bumped after all. You have two choices - one is to cover up the fact you have invaded sovereign territory as best you can giving Pakistan all sorts of leverage over you or two, say it is Bin Laden anyway and create the noise to say so.

 

The point here is that the Americans were taking option two even if the intelligence was wrong.

[P-Dizzle]

LP, consider the case if this WASN'T Bin Laden that was bumped after all. You have two choices - one is to cover up the fact you have invaded sovereign territory as best you can giving Pakistan all sorts of leverage over you or two, say it is Bin Laden anyway and create the noise to say so.

 

The point here is that the Americans were taking option two even if the intelligence was wrong.

 

The US operate in Pakistan autonomously already, this would be nothing new or a shock to Pakistan. The mock outrage coming from some in Pakistan is just them playing the political game, they've got to deal with both sides. They allow a lot of freedom to the US to work within their borders, with surveillance and missile drones as well as military activity. At the same time they cannot be seen to be too lenient with them and express anger when something like this has happened.

 

I really wouldn't be reading too much into that if you're looking to base a conspiracy on something. I mean, the theories we've seen in this thread are about as substantial as the ones claiming Jamie Lee Curtis is a hermaphrodite.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

The US operate in Pakistan autonomously already, this would be nothing new or a shock to Pakistan. The mock outrage coming from some in Pakistan is just them playing the political game, they've got to deal with both sides. They allow a lot of freedom to the US to work within their borders, with surveillance and missile drones as well as military activity. At the same time they cannot be seen to be too lenient with them and express anger when something like this has happened.

 

I really wouldn't be reading too much into that if you're looking to base a conspiracy on something. I mean, the theories we've seen in this thread are about as substantial as the ones claiming Jamie Lee Curtis is a hermaphrodite.

That's fair enough. All I would finally add is that the burden of proof is on the White House and Pentagon to show that this was Bin Laden. So far, we have their word for it and nothing else.

[P-Dizzle]

I'm not up to date with reading on all the news stuff about this but can anyone save me a dig about and tell me how the Pakistani authorities are explaining how they didn't notice he was living in some great big suspicious looking compound about 2 minutes from an important military base? It might already have been covered but I'd rather not read through umpteen pages of conspiracy stuff if at all possible....

 

The offical line is that they had no knowledge and they're sticking to that. He was living 'hidden in plain sight', nobody claims to have known they were there and the fact that a giant compound was erected and expanded over recent years didn't seem to raise any eyebrows.

 

There's little doubt in my mind that they knew at least to some degree where he was, whether they were actively harbouring Bin Laden is another issue.

[P-Dizzle]

That's fair enough. All I would finally add is that the burden of proof is on the White House and Pentagon to show that this was Bin Laden. So far, we have their word for it and nothing else.

 

Oh undoubtedly, I'm looking forward to seeing a confirmed picture of him to verify his death as much as you. The difference we have here, is that I have no reason to doubt the offical story and am totally unconvinced by every contrary view expressed so far in this thread.

[Tazio]

What's the difference between Bin Laden and Henry Cooper?

 

Henry could stay on his feet after more than two rounds.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Oh undoubtedly, I'm looking forward to seeing a confirmed picture of him to verify his death as much as you. The difference we have here, is that I have no reason to doubt the offical story and am totally unconvinced by every contrary view expressed so far in this thread.

Fair enough. I've spelled out my reasons why I argue my case and, if proven wrong, I will say so. Unlike others who like to cut and paste and wear tinfoil, I'll make my own mind up.

[P-Dizzle]

What's the difference between Bin Laden and Henry Cooper?

 

Henry could stay on his feet after more than two rounds.

 

 

 

 

 

e- You never told me if I was right about East Timor.

[Guest Ultraviolet Catastrophe]

That's fair enough. All I would finally add is that the burden of proof is on the White House and Pentagon to show that this was Bin Laden. So far, we have their word for it and nothing else.

 

 

The Pentagon don't need to explain themselves to the Kickback Columbos and other internet "free thinkers". Seriously, who do you think you are?! If they say they've killed him, then they've probably killed him and if they don't want to provide proof (extremely sensible decision given the circumstances) then that's case closed.

 

People have already mentioned how such a massive lie would be difficult to keep it all under wraps if they hadn't killed him/killed him ages ago/whatever, and people have already explained quite elegantly why he was buried at sea and why there'll probably be no photos released.

 

The US Government have also said for ages that if they find him, he'll be executed and that's exactly what they've done. Absolutely nothing out of the ordinary, in fact I reckon Obama's played a blinder on this one, given how he's handled it. They wanted to kill him as a symbolic gesture and they've done it with minimum fuss, respected Muslim traditions and avoided winding up some angry extremists even more by parading pictures of his corpse around international media.

 

I honestly don't know what you and others expect from the US - they'll release whatever evidence they like whenever they see fit, and the self-important conspiracy theorists will just have to make do.

[Nicholas Brody]

http://youtu.be/mJ2xLK-AGOE

 

:stare:

[Felix Lighter]

 

The Pentagon don't need to explain themselves to the Kickback Columbos and other internet "free thinkers". Seriously, who do you think you are?! If they say they've killed him, then they've probably killed him and if they don't want to provide proof (extremely sensible decision given the circumstances) then that's case closed.

 

People have already mentioned how such a massive lie would be difficult to keep it all under wraps if they hadn't killed him/killed him ages ago/whatever, and people have already explained quite elegantly why he was buried at sea and why there'll probably be no photos released.

 

The US Government have also said for ages that if they find him, he'll be executed and that's exactly what they've done. Absolutely nothing out of the ordinary, in fact I reckon Obama's played a blinder on this one, given how he's handled it. They wanted to kill him as a symbolic gesture and they've done it with minimum fuss, respected Muslim traditions and avoided winding up some angry extremists even more by parading pictures of his corpse around international media.

 

I honestly don't know what you and others expect from the US - they'll release whatever evidence they like whenever they see fit, and the self-important conspiracy theorists will just have to make do.

 

 

I'm confused.Who's in charge here?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

The Pentagon don't need to explain themselves to the Kickback Columbos and other internet "free thinkers". Seriously, who do you think you are?! If they say they've killed him, then they've probably killed him and if they don't want to provide proof (extremely sensible decision given the circumstances) then that's case closed.

 

People have already mentioned how such a massive lie would be difficult to keep it all under wraps if they hadn't killed him/killed him ages ago/whatever, and people have already explained quite elegantly why he was buried at sea and why there'll probably be no photos released.

 

The US Government have also said for ages that if they find him, he'll be executed and that's exactly what they've done. Absolutely nothing out of the ordinary, in fact I reckon Obama's played a blinder on this one, given how he's handled it. They wanted to kill him as a symbolic gesture and they've done it with minimum fuss, respected Muslim traditions and avoided winding up some angry extremists even more by parading pictures of his corpse around international media.

 

I honestly don't know what you and others expect from the US - they'll release whatever evidence they like whenever they see fit, and the self-important conspiracy theorists will just have to make do.

I suppose you believed there were WMD in Iraq as well because they said there were too?

 

The day people stop scrutinising governments is the day they end up under a dictatorship.