*** Official St Mirren v Heart Of Midlothian thread ***

[Sooks]

Just now, Mr Elwood P said:

It's not even a debatable decision. It's a booking. Watch more football matches.

I watched it while at the game . Not sure why watching other football matches will change my opinion 

[Mr Elwood P]

1 minute ago, Sooks said:

I watched it while at the game . Not sure why watching other football matches will change my opinion 

It will give you context of what a yellow card offence looks like. Bookings for that foul in most football matches. It's just obviously a booking, to me at least.

[Sooks]

1 minute ago, Mr Elwood P said:

It will give you context of what a yellow card offence looks like. Bookings for that foul in most football matches. It's just obviously a booking, to me at least.

I prefer to go by my understanding of the laws of the game tbh . If you are wanting to apply context from other games then you are on a hiding to nothing since the consistency non existent within the same 90 minutes here , let alone other games elsewhere 

[Mr Elwood P]

Just now, Sooks said:

I prefer to go by my understanding of the laws of the game tbh . If you are wanting to apply context from other games then you are on a hiding to nothing since the consistency non existent within the same 90 minutes here , let alone other games elsewhere 

What specific law or rule of the game are you relying on here?

[Sooks]

Just now, Mr Elwood P said:

What specific law or rule of the game are you relying on here?

I ll get back to you at some point tomorrow . You tend to get entrenched in long debates over things on here and I am going to bed soon  

[Mr Elwood P]

Just now, Sooks said:

I ll get back to you at some point tomorrow . You tend to get entrenched in long debates over things on here and I am going to bed soon  

I'm not debating, i'm explaining. I very much look forward to seeing any evidence you can produce, that supports that foul not being a yellow card...

[gregzy2k7]

12 hours ago, May one-six said:

I'd like to see us have some sort of strategy that exploits their weaknesses and gives us the best chance of winning. I may be wrong, but I get the impression that we go to places like St Mirren having given absolutely no thought to the strengths and weaknesses of the opposition and no plan in place to counter/exploit these. We seem to have an arrogant attitude that we can rock up there and let them worry about us. The recent debacle at Dundee and countless other away games over the years suggests that's a mindset doomed to failure. 

While I get what you are trying to say, The best teams/managers play a certain style and stick to it, Regardless of who the opponent are, see Pep, Klopp and even Ange Postecoglu to a certain extent, I think we have to work towards having a system/style/identity and then stick to it, it's ok to have a back up plan or two if things are not working, and make changes after half time or after an hour, but I don't believe in changing your approach at the start and set up to nullify or try to get an advantage over the team you are playing. This rarely works and players get confused changing style and system every week, let's face it football players are not the brightest.

[Malinga the Swinga]

Would take a win, any win. Don't care about performance, just the win.

[davemclaren]

10 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Would take a win, any win. Don't care about performance, just the win.

Correct answer. 

[Hectormasson]

just get out there hearts and play them of the park,and similar score as v sheep would be sufficient,    

nothing to be scared of against them...🇶🇦🇱🇻🇶🇦🇱🇻🇶🇦🇱🇻🇶🇦🇱🇻🇶🇦🇱🇻&FTh

[Hearts1975]

                     Clark

 

Natty.      Kent.     Rowles.     Kingsley 

 

               Hoff.      Devlin 

 

Oda.             Shanks.           Forrest 

 

                     Vargas 

 

Boyce/Grant/Lowry all off the bench and use as impact players 

 

If we win this game this could really kickstart the season 

 

Hearts 2 - St Midden 1 

[Pasquale for King]

21 minutes ago, Hearts1975 said:

                     Clark

 

Natty.      Kent.     Rowles.     Kingsley 

 

               Hoff.      Devlin 

 

Oda.             Shanks.           Forrest 

 

                     Vargas 

 

Boyce/Grant/Lowry all off the bench and use as impact players 

 

If we win this game this could really kickstart the season 

 

Hearts 2 - St Midden 1 

Looks good to me 👍🏽

[Pasquale for King]

3 hours ago, chrystaf said:

Agree.  We won't get the luxury of time on the ball and a dodgy defence as we did on Saturday. They will press us and we will need to be "up for it". 

Probably another reason we need to work on the quick ball over or in behind their defence. 

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

2 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Would take a win, any win. Don't care about performance, just the win.

100%

[Sooks]

7 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

Probably another reason we need to work on the quick ball over or in behind their defence. 

The thing is though a more direct style of play would evoke cat calls about hoofing and signing players who are good at it. Would get the club slaughtered . When we were rumoured to be considering either battering ram strikers or fast strong running players like Main or Nouble , this place erupts . I would like to have a specialist for that sort of tactic on our bench personally 

[fila]

Just need to win , that's all its about 

[Pans Jambo]

Pisses me off how far we have fell that we are worried about playing St Mirren.
I know our last 10 games or so through there have not been great but that just reinforces my point. THEY should be shitting it that WE are going there!

 

We need to step up away from home. Sick of our away form now. As usual, a draw will be seen by some as a ‘result’. 
 

Fek that Hearts! Get the 3 points. A Dundee esq performance will not go down well. 
 

2-1 Hearts. 

[May one-six]

10 hours ago, gregzy2k7 said:

While I get what you are trying to say, The best teams/managers play a certain style and stick to it, Regardless of who the opponent are, see Pep, Klopp and even Ange Postecoglu to a certain extent, I think we have to work towards having a system/style/identity and then stick to it, it's ok to have a back up plan or two if things are not working, and make changes after half time or after an hour, but I don't believe in changing your approach at the start and set up to nullify or try to get an advantage over the team you are playing. This rarely works and players get confused changing style and system every week, let's face it football players are not the brightest.

I appreciate that it's best to have a distinctive style that players know and understand but the proof of the pudding etc. Whatever style we are trying to implement is clearly useless when it comes to away games. Our record overall is atrocious. That would suggest we need a different approach that's more flexible and gives us the best chance of winning more often. It would seem to me that looking for weaknesses in the opposition and trying to make the most of them would be a start. Perhaps SN is looking to vary things a little and that will bring us more success. Here's hoping.

[The Treasurer]

44 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Pisses me off how far we have fell that we are worried about playing St Mirren.
I know our last 10 games or so through there have not been great but that just reinforces my point. THEY should be shitting it that WE are going there!

 

We need to step up away from home. Sick of our away form now. As usual, a draw will be seen by some as a ‘result’. 
 

Fek that Hearts! Get the 3 points. A Dundee esq performance will not go down well. 
 

2-1 Hearts. 

Don't think that worried is the right word. 

Midden are on a good run, they have a very good home record, so people are rightly saying this will be a very tough match 

[Sooks]

1 minute ago, The Treasurer said:

Don't think that worried is the right word. 

Midden are on a good run, they have a very good home record, so people are rightly saying this will be a very tough match 

And also recognising that it is the ideal game to make a statement and change the momentum of both teams 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

1 hour ago, Pans Jambo said:

Pisses me off how far we have fell that we are worried about playing St Mirren.
I know our last 10 games or so through there have not been great but that just reinforces my point. THEY should be shitting it that WE are going there!

 

We need to step up away from home. Sick of our away form now. As usual, a draw will be seen by some as a ‘result’. 
 

Fek that Hearts! Get the 3 points. A Dundee esq performance will not go down well. 
 

2-1 Hearts. 

Probably because St Mirren are going through a really good spell, despite losing key players in the summer they seem to have got better. Other teams are allowed to improve and will

[Pans Jambo]

30 minutes ago, The Treasurer said:

Don't think that worried is the right word. 

Midden are on a good run, they have a very good home record, so people are rightly saying this will be a very tough match 

Well there's definitely an 'edge' on this thread that looks like concern to me. We should be smashing that shite in their stadium regardless of what kind of run they are on. I know that realistically, that's not the case but given the huge gulf in resources, I don't understand why we don't do to them what the erse cheeks do to us. Regularly!

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

30 minutes ago, Sooks said:

And also recognising that it is the ideal game to make a statement and change the momentum of both teams 

You can only do that through process though. Saturday the process has to be to win the ball and 2nd balls, which we did well last Saturday, but rarely do away from home. Then its get the ball down in the final third, and get balls into the box, again something we rarely do away from home, perhaps because we are trying too quickly to get to the 2nd part

[Pans Jambo]

2 minutes ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

Probably because St Mirren are going through a really good spell, despite losing key players in the summer they seem to have got better. Other teams are allowed to improve and will

I know but just look at the size and quality of our squad. We should not fear anyone in Scotland.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Just now, Pans Jambo said:

I know but just look at the size and quality of our squad. We should not fear anyone in Scotland.

I think you only need to look at Kilmarnock taking out both cheeks to realise, that teams that are well set up, are there first and foremost to be "hard to beat". St Mirren fall into that category, will likely look to play early balls at us, feed off scraps and keep a rigid back line.

 

I just dont think its as easy as you think, the whole problem I think with Scottish football, too many teams want to be "hard to beat", but its their prerogative to get points and cash any which way they can. 

 

As I replied to @Sooks process for us has to be match the scrap, win it, and then let football break out, away from home anyway

[Pans Jambo]

5 minutes ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

I think you only need to look at Kilmarnock taking out both cheeks to realise, that teams that are well set up, are there first and foremost to be "hard to beat". St Mirren fall into that category, will likely look to play early balls at us, feed off scraps and keep a rigid back line.

 

I just dont think its as easy as you think, the whole problem I think with Scottish football, too many teams want to be "hard to beat", but its their prerogative to get points and cash any which way they can. 

 

As I replied to @Sooks process for us has to be match the scrap, win it, and then let football break out, away from home anyway

Yeah the lack of fight at Dundee was hard to take. You're right that these teams drag you down to their clogger level and you need to fight first and then play your own game plan second. We should have the ability to do that with the players we have.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

10 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Yeah the lack of fight at Dundee was hard to take. You're right that these teams drag you down to their clogger level and you need to fight first and then play your own game plan second. We should have the ability to do that with the players we have.

I think the simple answer is, its easier to destroy a game than it is to make one, bit like me with DIY, I can take anything down, but can never make anything . Much to Dame Beni's disgust!

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

23 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

I know but just look at the size and quality of our squad. We should not fear anyone in Scotland.

Agree with you ! Our away form is shocking over a long period of time, with our resources compared to the teams we play against outside the old firm we should be beating those teams more often than not

[We_are_the_Hearts]

Most of it is just mentality and attitude. Need to have the mindset to go and just play your normal game, win the battle and dictate the game. End of the day its just a football pitch and more times than not we have as many fans as the opposition. 

[Class of 75]

Another glorified pub team that Hearts should have no concerns about. 3 points, 2-0 win. 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

14 minutes ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

Agree with you ! Our away form is shocking over a long period of time, with our resources compared to the teams we play against outside the old firm we should be beating those teams more often than not

I think this is fundamentally the issue. We lose more often than not, I dont expect to win them all or easily, however there needs to be something like 6 to 8 away wins to really see us improve. 5 home points dropped already, that shortfall needs to be made up for.

[Jambo in Bathgate]

11 minutes ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

I think this is fundamentally the issue. We lose more often than not, I dont expect to win them all or easily, however there needs to be something like 6 to 8 away wins to really see us improve. 5 home points dropped already, that shortfall needs to be made up for.

In the sort term our objective should be to improve on a poor away record against the other teams outside the Glasgow two. That’s the way to ensure  third place. 

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

15 minutes ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

I think this is fundamentally the issue. We lose more often than not, I dont expect to win them all or easily, however there needs to be something like 6 to 8 away wins to really see us improve. 5 home points dropped already, that shortfall needs to be made up for.

100% agree

[TheBigO]

15 hours ago, Turkishcap said:

Our crowds and our budget should mean 3 points.

Am I confident, no.

See how I feel as days go by.

Not sure it fully works like that chief.  Budget gets you consistency over the season as you have better players but also a deeper and more level quality across squad.  But away at St Mirren is going to be tough for even the OF and you won't be surprised to see points dropped there by any team.

 

That's not to say we shouldn't be going there and winning, I just don't think the budget thing works 100% like that.  As I say, 38 games, should we be above St Mirren?  Hell yes, by double digits.  One off game in Paisley, it'll be tight, could come down to a team getting an early break, a ref, anything.

 

What's for sure is I want Hearts to start going to away games (every game obviously!) with chests puffed out, sleeves rolled up KNOWING AND EXPECTING to win cos we're better than our opposition and willing to fight harder than them to prove it.  That's the attitude we need.  And I'd be surprised if it's not the attitude Naismith wants - Neilson was more controlled and every game was "tough" etc, you got the impression that wasn't just his media messaging either.  Naisy may say something in the press - but it'd be surprising to me if the attitude he's trying to harness isn't We're Hearts - eff you!!!

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

5 minutes ago, Jambo in Bathgate said:

In the sort term our objective should be to improve on a poor away record against the other teams outside the Glasgow two. That’s the way to ensure  third place. 

 

3 minutes ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

100% agree

Yeah, simply not losing twice to Aberdeen is a start for example. Beating bottom 6 teams, we have one in the bag already which is a start, Dundee though a really poor result. If you win at home, maybe take 40 home points from the season, 20-25 points away probably gets 3rd, 25-30 shows proper progress

[May one-six]

1 hour ago, Pans Jambo said:

Well there's definitely an 'edge' on this thread that looks like concern to me. We should be smashing that shite in their stadium regardless of what kind of run they are on. I know that realistically, that's not the case but given the huge gulf in resources, I don't understand why we don't do to them what the erse cheeks do to us. Regularly!

Last season the erse cheeks struggled in Paisley. The truth is that there's a huge gulf in playing resources when you compare the OF with everyone else, but the same is not true for us. Some people might see St Mirren, Motherwell etc as made up of 'shite' but our squad is only marginally above that level. As can be seen on this very forum, we have lots of players - Haring, Atkinson, Rowles, Devlin, Kingsley, Hof, McKay, Boyce, Clark, Sibbick, Lowry, Tagawa - who our own supporters regard as either poor or limited.

 

[Fozzyonthefence]

14 hours ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

What the first one? If so why did Shinnie and another Aberdeen player not get booked for similar fouls in the next 5 minutes. 

 

Have a word with yourself, serious

If you think Haring’s yellow card was harsh then you don’t understand the rules of football!  It was a deliberate trip from behind to stop a counter attack with zero attempt to play the ball.  The very definition of a yellow card.  Whether it was his first foul or not is completely irrelevant.
 

I thought Aberdeen should have had one just after that (probably one of the fouls you referred to), however it wasn’t the same type of foul and of course Sportscene didn’t show it so I’ve not had the benefit of seeing how late it was. 

[Fozzyonthefence]

14 hours ago, Mr Elwood P said:

 

Staggering analysis. The first is a booking all day long. See that booking in almost every football match you watch. 2nd foul he's saved by advantage being played.

Not often I agree with you but absolutely spot on. First one was a professional foul and booking all day long, nowhere near the ball and no attempt to even play the ball,  just deliberately tripped him to take one for the team (a good foul the pundits would call it). 

[Pasquale for King]

4 hours ago, Sooks said:

The thing is though a more direct style of play would evoke cat calls about hoofing and signing players who are good at it. Would get the club slaughtered . When we were rumoured to be considering either battering ram strikers or fast strong running players like Main or Nouble , this place erupts . I would like to have a specialist for that sort of tactic on our bench personally 

Thats not the kind of style I’m advocating, which by the way we have played far too much this season. The problem with long balls is the GK can’t kick the ball consistently in any direction or length.
I’m talking more of the way Hibs play to Boyle and Youhan, quick balls over the top or through for them to run onto behind a defence that has pushed up because Shankland and Boyce play in the same deeper areas. 

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, May one-six said:

Last season the erse cheeks struggled in Paisley. The truth is that there's a huge gulf in playing resources when you compare the OF with everyone else, but the same is not true for us. Some people might see St Mirren, Motherwell etc as made up of 'shite' but our squad is only marginally above that level. As can be seen on this very forum, we have lots of players - Haring, Atkinson, Rowles, Devlin, Kingsley, Hof, McKay, Boyce, Clark, Sibbick, Lowry, Tagawa - who our own supporters regard as either poor or limited.

 

Celtic lost 2-0 and then won 5-1, Rangers drew 1-1 and won 3-0. Struggled once but won easily the next time. 

The only way we will start getting better at winning away from home is to have the confidence that the uglies have and the demands from the fans that we beat these teams, no matter how small the gap is between us, we are a better team. 
Every one of those players is better than they’re counterparts at St Mirren or Motherwell. 
We also have a great record there recently with 2 wins and 2 draws. 

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, TheBigO said:

Not sure it fully works like that chief.  Budget gets you consistency over the season as you have better players but also a deeper and more level quality across squad.  But away at St Mirren is going to be tough for even the OF and you won't be surprised to see points dropped there by any team.

 

That's not to say we shouldn't be going there and winning, I just don't think the budget thing works 100% like that.  As I say, 38 games, should we be above St Mirren?  Hell yes, by double digits.  One off game in Paisley, it'll be tight, could come down to a team getting an early break, a ref, anything.

 

What's for sure is I want Hearts to start going to away games (every game obviously!) with chests puffed out, sleeves rolled up KNOWING AND EXPECTING to win cos we're better than our opposition and willing to fight harder than them to prove it.  That's the attitude we need.  And I'd be surprised if it's not the attitude Naismith wants - Neilson was more controlled and every game was "tough" etc, you got the impression that wasn't just his media messaging either.  Naisy may say something in the press - but it'd be surprising to me if the attitude he's trying to harness isn't We're Hearts - eff you!!!

Definitely. 

[upgotheheads]

1 hour ago, May one-six said:

Last season the erse cheeks struggled in Paisley. The truth is that there's a huge gulf in playing resources when you compare the OF with everyone else, but the same is not true for us. Some people might see St Mirren, Motherwell etc as made up of 'shite' but our squad is only marginally above that level. As can be seen on this very forum, we have lots of players - Haring, Atkinson, Rowles, Devlin, Kingsley, Hof, McKay, Boyce, Clark, Sibbick, Lowry, Tagawa - who our own supporters regard as either poor or limited.

 

 

There would always be a handful of players from Motherwell and St Mirren, in recent years at least, who would walk into our squad.

[Turkishcap]

3 hours ago, TheBigO said:

Not sure it fully works like that chief.  Budget gets you consistency over the season as you have better players but also a deeper and more level quality across squad.  But away at St Mirren is going to be tough for even the OF and you won't be surprised to see points dropped there by any team.

 

That's not to say we shouldn't be going there and winning, I just don't think the budget thing works 100% like that.  As I say, 38 games, should we be above St Mirren?  Hell yes, by double digits.  One off game in Paisley, it'll be tight, could come down to a team getting an early break, a ref, anything.

 

What's for sure is I want Hearts to start going to away games (every game obviously!) with chests puffed out, sleeves rolled up KNOWING AND EXPECTING to win cos we're better than our opposition and willing to fight harder than them to prove it.  That's the attitude we need.  And I'd be surprised if it's not the attitude Naismith wants - Neilson was more controlled and every game was "tough" etc, you got the impression that wasn't just his media messaging either.  Naisy may say something in the press - but it'd be surprising to me if the attitude he's trying to harness isn't We're Hearts - eff you!!!

Well put.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

2 hours ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

If you think Haring’s yellow card was harsh then you don’t understand the rules of football!  It was a deliberate trip from behind to stop a counter attack with zero attempt to play the ball.  The very definition of a yellow card.  Whether it was his first foul or not is completely irrelevant.
 

I thought Aberdeen should have had one just after that (probably one of the fouls you referred to), however it wasn’t the same type of foul and of course Sportscene didn’t show it so I’ve not had the benefit of seeing how late it was. 

I understand them perfectly well, my opinion differs to yours, Haring got a piece of the ball, there was no force or malice, and a talking to, which was afforded to Shinnie, when there was no effort to play the ball seconds there would have sufficed.

 

Jog on

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

2 hours ago, upgotheheads said:

 

There would always be a handful of players from Motherwell and St Mirren, in recent years at least, who would walk into our squad.

Walk in is perhaps strong, likes of Forrest and Halkett being picked up from teams associated with lower half does suggest there is some quality. Motherwell have had some really good young talent, Campbell, Turnbull, latterly Johnston, these would walk in, but they dont seem to have a handful in their teams all at once

[TexasAndy]

Like to see us play with same tempo as Saturday.  They will nip away at us but if we match that commitment I'd like to think we have better quality in team to grab the win.  

[May one-six]

2 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

Celtic lost 2-0 and then won 5-1, Rangers drew 1-1 and won 3-0. Struggled once but won easily the next time. 

The only way we will start getting better at winning away from home is to have the confidence that the uglies have and the demands from the fans that we beat these teams, no matter how small the gap is between us, we are a better team. 
Every one of those players is better than they’re counterparts at St Mirren or Motherwell. 
We also have a great record there recently with 2 wins and 2 draws. 

Confidence would be useful, arrogance is not. The OF (Celtic in particular) have players who are miles ahead of other teams in the league. We don't. Instead, we have players who are slightly better. However, it seems there are quite a few of our supporters (not you) who expect us to go to other away grounds and smash the opposition. I think the only way we will secure regular away wins is to be a bit more humble and accept that we have to prepare very seriously and work extremely hard during games. If all of our players are better than Motherwell's then they struggled to show it in the recent game at Tynie. We'll see on Saturday how much better they are than those at St Mirren. 

[PapaShango]

We need to come out quick on Saturday and play a high tempo game. Although St Mirren have had a very good start to the season, we should never be fearful of playing them! Their bubble has to burst at some point, we should have better players all over the park and it will come down to the application and work rate of the players. Last time out against them we were awful in the first half, played safe the entire game and back the way. We need to mix it up with them and play forwards. Would like to see Hoff come in for Haring who was the only one on Saturday who was poor for me. That's the only change I would make barring Oda not being fit. If he is out then not sure who we bring in, maybe Forrest based on his outing last weekend. Not sure Lowry is effective in these types of games from the start, would keep him to come on later if needed. 

[OmiyaHearts]

The fact we're still concerned about st mirren away shows how little we've progressed the last 10 years, despite the massive fan and benefactor contributions. It's a joke, really.

 

We won't come out and play quick high tempo away to them. We've never done it and never will, especially with the current head coach.

 

We beat a horrific Aberdeen side are probably about to start a run of games where apart from the derby, we won't see a victory until November.

 

If it plays out like that, we'll be looking for a new manager come Livingston game. This weekends game is another must-win for the management team. I don't care about the performances just now, as long as we are getting points on the board. Which looks doubtful.

[MattyK82]

25 minutes ago, OmiyaHearts said:

The fact we're still concerned about st mirren away shows how little we've progressed the last 10 years, despite the massive fan and benefactor contributions. It's a joke, really.

 

We won't come out and play quick high tempo away to them. We've never done it and never will, especially with the current head coach.

 

We beat a horrific Aberdeen side are probably about to start a run of games where apart from the derby, we won't see a victory until November.

 

If it plays out like that, we'll be looking for a new manager come Livingston game. This weekends game is another must-win for the management team. I don't care about the performances just now, as long as we are getting points on the board. Which looks doubtful.

 

Super pumped up for Saturday now!