*** Official St Mirren v Heart Of Midlothian thread ***

[Jarhead]

3 hours ago, soonbe110 said:

There were 6 Aussies on the pitch at ko yesterday. It was a dreadful game of football with virtually no skilful stuff on display from either side. It was attrition football and no surprise a howling mistake produced the only goal. Nearly a third of the outfield from Oz and that’s where we have placed the bet on our future. It was the same at Perth where five Aussies were involved and the best of a bad bunch used to play for us but doesn’t now.    Need to cut the ties now and not waste any more money on a footballing backwater. 

What a strange (and slightly sinister) thing to take away from yesterday. 
The nationality of any of our players is completely irrelevant to whether they are any good or not. 
Granted Rowles wasn’t great but anyone thinking the other 3 Aussies were the reason we lost then I’m not sure what they were watching 🤷‍♂️

[Jingle Bells]

3 hours ago, mitch41 said:

Watching the game who noticed how many times we failed to stop or block them crossing the ball into our box. At times it looked as if the players were uninterested or lazy to put a challenge in. This was just one of many basic things we never did on a day our travelling support were let down again.  No Teamwork, no playing for each other, one decent move in the whole game, no leadership which tells me there is problems within the first team squad. Is there a clique, do some not get on with others, whatever it is it needs to be sorted out asap.

 

4 hours ago, Hearts1975 said:

It would be interesting to know how much input he has into what they actually train toward. 

That said, I could be doing the guy a dis-service here, and he isnt the problem at all. 

Can the players actually execute what's being asked of them on the park ? That might explain things a bit better 

That doesnt even bear thinking about 

 

Forrest was normally carrying a clip board around with him so I'm guessing that was his instructions from Neilson, whom was rarely there. 

The back five practiced passing the ball as quickly as possible to each other in a line and there was a lot of five aside type games.

Like I said though I was only watching it for a short period so there would have been a lot more happening than that.

Couldn't tell you what happening this season as I'm now doing evening shifts

[Hearts1975]

5 minutes ago, Jingle Bells said:

 

 

Forrest was normally carrying a clip board around with him so I'm guessing that was his instructions from Neilson, whom was rarely there. 

The back five practiced passing the ball as quickly as possible to each other in a line and there was a lot of five aside type games.

Like I said though I was only watching it for a short period so there would have been a lot more happening than that.

Couldn't tell you what happening this season as I'm now doing evening shifts

It does sound like a lot of in-field decision making type drills. Interesting indeed. 

 

Another poster made a good point the other day where he said that most of the time, goals, come from turnovers in the opposition half, and dispossessing the other team, most notably from initiating a press. 

 

When we eventually get the ball into the opposition half, we are almost always carrying the ball in there, and are met with 10 men defending behind the ball. 

 

High possession statistics game on game but although the opposition in most cases have between 30-40% of the ball, they always seem to be creating far more chances than we do. 

 

The other teams seem to plan for getting the ball and creating chances in one box and defending their box, and we seem to plan for having most of the ball and when it doesn't work, and we don't make enough chances in the game, it's always stated that we didn't make the right "decisions" when we had the ball. 

 

We need a system where we almost need to remove that individual decision making from the players, as it's patently obvious that in the majority of games we just aren't capable of doing what the manager is asking of the players.

 

I wish we would try something different rather than continually try and bridge the obvious deficiencies when it comes to playing one football philosophy, and one football philosophy only. 

 

 

[The Old Tolbooth]

On 23/09/2023 at 17:47, Diadora Van Basten said:

That’s not correct he made a great save from Devlin.

 

I don't even remember that one, I must have fallen asleep. 

[Ex member of the SaS]

I have waited a bit before posting as I know most will disagree, but for me Shankland and Boyce are not good enough! There I've said it! Whether it's because they can't play together or they are too comfortable knowing they won't be dropped I can't tell. Shankland drops too deep and is never in the box for the knock on ( yes he score penalties, but we can't rely on getting one every game ) and Boyce does well but can't make a decision, should have shot when he had the chance instead of passing off to the winger.

We need a proper striker or two and a proper manager ( yes I thought Naismith could do a job, but I am now of the opinion he can't get these players to do what he says he does ) too slow and too many passes and still little forward movement. We need a complete shake up from top to bottom and God knows what our FoH rep does as there is no communication of what the fans want to see on the pitch.

[Batistuta87]

Watched the highlights again this morning and the more I see their first goal the worse it looks. WTF were Kent and Clark doing?? Kent was in a good position to block the cross at the front post and if he'd stayed where he was it would have hit off him and gone out for a corner - why on earth did he step back and let it go? Did he think he was inside the post and would have scored an OG? It was as if he'd had a shout from the keeper, but then the keeper didn't react like someone who had shouted to claim it for himself and didn't deal with it either... Very poor  

[Chimp]

20 minutes ago, Batistuta87 said:

Watched the highlights again this morning and the more I see their first goal the worse it looks. WTF were Kent and Clark doing?? Kent was in a good position to block the cross at the front post and if he'd stayed where he was it would have hit off him and gone out for a corner - why on earth did he step back and let it go? Did he think he was inside the post and would have scored an OG? It was as if he'd had a shout from the keeper, but then the keeper didn't react like someone who had shouted to claim it for himself and didn't deal with it either... Very poor  

 

For me someone (I presume Clark) has shouted for the ball. Don't think for a second Kent pulls his leg out of the way for no reason at all. You don't do that without hearing a shout, no chance.

 

Both players were at fault obviously but Clark has to deal with that for me. Sure I noticed he puts his hand in the air afterwards too as if to apologise, could be wrong but he f***** up massively there and not for the first time. Looks less and less reliable every time I watch him. No2 at best and shows how much we miss Gordon.

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Chimp said:

 

For me someone (I presume Clark) has shouted for the ball. Don't think for a second Kent pulls his leg out of the way for no reason at all. You don't do that without hearing a shout, no chance.

 

Both players were at fault obviously but Clark has to deal with that for me. Sure I noticed he puts his hand in the air afterwards too as if to apologise, could be wrong but he f***** up massively there and not for the first time. Looks less and less reliable every time I watch him. No2 at best and shows how much we miss Gordon.

 

If god almighty had shouted to leave it, Kent still should have cleared it. That's not a ball you let go.

[Chimp]

3 minutes ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

If god almighty had shouted to leave it, Kent still should have cleared it. That's not a ball you let go.

 

That's why I included him in the blame 👍

[Ex member of the SaS]

Basic rule of defending, boot it out. however if the keeper shouts he has to be sure he can deal with it. More and more I see Clark making mistakes and the sooner Craig is back the better

[Unknown user]

34 minutes ago, Chimp said:

 

That's why I included him in the blame 👍

 

I'm not arguing, I'm just saying it should never have got past him, for any reason, any shout.

[Chimp]

Just now, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

I'm not arguing, I'm just saying it should never have got past him, for any reason, any shout.

 

I wasn't arguing either mate and that's why I said they're both at fault. But if a GK is going to shout for the ball he needs to collect it, or at least make an effort to. Kent seems to be a no nonsense defender and was out of character so I can only presume it was Clark who shouted for it. A calamitous goal all round either way and sums up where we are at the minute.

[Batistuta87]

46 minutes ago, Chimp said:

 

For me someone (I presume Clark) has shouted for the ball. Don't think for a second Kent pulls his leg out of the way for no reason at all. You don't do that without hearing a shout, no chance.

 

Both players were at fault obviously but Clark has to deal with that for me. Sure I noticed he puts his hand in the air afterwards too as if to apologise, could be wrong but he f***** up massively there and not for the first time. Looks less and less reliable every time I watch him. No2 at best and shows how much we miss Gordon.

Yeah don't think he would have left it without a shout, but then Clark didn't claim it either so dunno what happened? Mental. 

 

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, Chimp said:

 

I wasn't arguing either mate and that's why I said they're both at fault. But if a GK is going to shout for the ball he needs to collect it, or at least make an effort to. Kent seems to be a no nonsense defender and was out of character so I can only presume it was Clark who shouted for it. A calamitous goal all round either way and sums up where we are at the minute.

 

I don't think Zander can take much blame TBH, no one in that stadium expected that to happen

[Chimp]

Just now, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

I don't think Zander can take much blame TBH, no one in that stadium expected that to happen

 

If he has shouted for it then he absolutely can take a lot of the blame. Who knows though, lack of or poor communication contributed to it either way.

[Batistuta87]

56 minutes ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

If god almighty had shouted to leave it, Kent still should have cleared it. That's not a ball you let go.

Agree with this. If you're defending the front post, under no circumstances should you leave a ball for the keeper. 

 

[Unknown user]

7 minutes ago, Chimp said:

 

If he has shouted for it then he absolutely can take a lot of the blame. Who knows though, lack of or poor communication contributed to it either way.

Not for me, that's defensive insanity with or without a shout IMO.

 

I did wonder if he'd misheard a shout, and of course, in a split second it's easy to choose the wrong option, but in those circumstances leaving the ball is mental.

[pettigrewsstylist]

1 hour ago, Batistuta87 said:

Watched the highlights again this morning and the more I see their first goal the worse it looks. WTF were Kent and Clark doing?? Kent was in a good position to block the cross at the front post and if he'd stayed where he was it would have hit off him and gone out for a corner - why on earth did he step back and let it go? Did he think he was inside the post and would have scored an OG? It was as if he'd had a shout from the keeper, but then the keeper didn't react like someone who had shouted to claim it for himself and didn't deal with it either... Very poor  

Clark seems to lift his hand in apology immediatley after?

[pettigrewsstylist]

1 hour ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

If god almighty had shouted to leave it, Kent still should have cleared it. That's not a ball you let go.

Totally. Chasing possesion in dangerous areas and making mistakes under pressure in those areas, as St Huddies stated was their gameplan. 7 mins we lasted.

Amateur hour.

[Heartbeat]

2 minutes ago, pettigrewsstylist said:

Clark seems to lift his hand in apology immediatley after?

Yes agree was right behind goal and Clark shouted and it was left then Clark didn’t gather. yes he did on more than one occasion put an apologetic hand up, so that’s Dundee this season and he threw two in v killie end of last season and generally not confident on crosses and punches when could easily catch. Not knee jerk but if Gordon not coming back anytime soon it’s time for Michael McGovern to get a try. Two of our three losses this season would have been draws without ZC Mistakes, however doesn’t address the lack of creativity in midfield and struggling to threaten opposition goalkeeper

[pettigrewsstylist]

2 minutes ago, Heartbeat said:

Yes agree was right behind goal and Clark shouted and it was left then Clark didn’t gather. yes he did on more than one occasion put an apologetic hand up, so that’s Dundee this season and he threw two in v killie end of last season and generally not confident on crosses and punches when could easily catch. Not knee jerk but if Gordon not coming back anytime soon it’s time for Michael McGovern to get a try. Two of our three losses this season would have been draws without ZC Mistakes, however doesn’t address the lack of creativity in midfield and struggling to threaten opposition goalkeeper

To be honest, on another day we lose 3 zip on Sat. We got away with one at 1-0 only.

[Batistuta87]

31 minutes ago, pettigrewsstylist said:

Clark seems to lift his hand in apology immediatley after?

Very poor from Clark if he's shouted on it. If he shouts he HAS to claim it. 

Still poor from Kent as mentioned above. Clear your lines at the near post no matter what your keeper says. 

 

[Ex member of the SaS]

21 minutes ago, Batistuta87 said:

Very poor from Clark if he's shouted on it. If he shouts he HAS to claim it. 

Still poor from Kent as mentioned above. Clear your lines at the near post no matter what your keeper says. 

 

Have to disagree in as much as if the keeper shouts it's far better for him to collect the ball than boot it for a throw in or corner. IMHO Clark is 100% to blame for that goal. Without a shout than yes the defender should have dealt with it.

[Batistuta87]

45 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

Have to disagree in as much as if the keeper shouts it's far better for him to collect the ball than boot it for a throw in or corner. IMHO Clark is 100% to blame for that goal. Without a shout than yes the defender should have dealt with it.

If that's me I'm going to deal with it anyway and give the keeper a quick tap to apologise. I'd rather not risk someone nipping in between myself and the keeper when I know for 100% sure that I can prevent the goal. 

Opinions though mate  

 

[combo74]

3 hours ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

I have waited a bit before posting as I know most will disagree, but for me Shankland and Boyce are not good enough! There I've said it! Whether it's because they can't play together or they are too comfortable knowing they won't be dropped I can't tell. Shankland drops too deep and is never in the box for the knock on ( yes he score penalties, but we can't rely on getting one every game ) and Boyce does well but can't make a decision, should have shot when he had the chance instead of passing off to the winger.

We need a proper striker or two and a proper manager ( yes I thought Naismith could do a job, but I am now of the opinion he can't get these players to do what he says he does ) too slow and too many passes and still little forward movement. We need a complete shake up from top to bottom and God knows what our FoH rep does as there is no communication of what the fans want to see on the pitch.

I’m with you on this and have been for a few weeks. Both are technically good players in their own right, but I don’t think playing both together works. They both drop deep on a regular basis, which leaves us short up front and neither have any pace, which means they are relatively easy to mark/close down. Shankland looks off it at the moment, for whatever reason, and Boyce’s finishing ability and the ability to strike a clean ball seems to have deserted him. It may seem tough to drop one of them, but for the good of the team I think we have to…in saying that the loss of McKay, Oda and Tagawa has clearly left us short of options.

 

The above 3 (along with the departure of Gino), has taken so much pace out of the team and that’s hurting us.

[Ricardo Quaresma]

Highlights, aplogies if posted already; how is that not a handball at 2:16?

 

 

[Jingle Bells]

On 24/09/2023 at 21:13, Hearts1975 said:

It does sound like a lot of in-field decision making type drills. Interesting indeed. 

 

Another poster made a good point the other day where he said that most of the time, goals, come from turnovers in the opposition half, and dispossessing the other team, most notably from initiating a press. 

 

When we eventually get the ball into the opposition half, we are almost always carrying the ball in there, and are met with 10 men defending behind the ball. 

 

High possession statistics game on game but although the opposition in most cases have between 30-40% of the ball, they always seem to be creating far more chances than we do. 

 

The other teams seem to plan for getting the ball and creating chances in one box and defending their box, and we seem to plan for having most of the ball and when it doesn't work, and we don't make enough chances in the game, it's always stated that we didn't make the right "decisions" when we had the ball. 

 

We need a system where we almost need to remove that individual decision making from the players, as it's patently obvious that in the majority of games we just aren't capable of doing what the manager is asking of the players.

 

I wish we would try something different rather than continually try and bridge the obvious deficiencies when it comes to playing one football philosophy, and one football philosophy only. 

 

 

 

I agree with you 1975 and would add the following;

 

I'd say we haven't had a Head Coach who can improve players since Sergio, although Stendhal given more time might have done so too.

 

It would be good to have a clever coach who looks at what talent we have and then fashions a system/team to accommodate them all rather than slavishly copying what happens in the EPL ,which results in us playing a third rate version of it because we don't have the quality of player to play it properly i.e. Neilson and wing-backs for instance.

 

I think Levein thought players could be  manufactured and having everyone playing the exact same way throughout the Club would bring better results, however playing systems don't last long before an astute Manager finds a way to beat them. Better to look for the best talent available  and take it from there as players need to be adaptable nowadays imho.

I mention Levein as we still following this football blue print for the Club and his "principles of play" manual.

 

Do we do enough "training with the ball"? Probably not.

 

Another thing that bugs me is for years now we have never set up a team to play to a Striker strengths, they are normally just an after thought. We now seem to be wrecking Shanklands' game too.

 

Its funny how football goes in circles . Wingers used to hit the bye line  and put in crosses as its the hardest cross to defend, then wingers cutting inside was the vogue and now the top EPL teams are back to having their wingers hitting the bye line and putting in crosses.

 

Our main problems I feel at present are that we have replaced a speedster in Ginnelly with a slow coach in Boycie as a number 10,,  As soon as he came back into the team our play went back to being ponderous. We haven't got anybody prepared to shoot from distance either. We need to shoot more.. 

I'm not having a go at Boyce as he is a good six yard penalty box striker but playing out of position..

 

Hopefully the football gets better soon.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Jingle Bells

[Hearts1975]

3 hours ago, Jingle Bells said:

 

I agree with you 1975 and would add the following;

 

I'd say we haven't had a Head Coach who can improve players since Sergio, although Stendhal given more time might have done so too.

 

It would be good to have a clever coach who looks at what talent we have and then fashions a system/team to accommodate them all rather than slavishly copying what happens in the EPL ,which results in us playing a third rate version of it because we don't have the quality of player to play it properly i.e. Neilson and wing-backs for instance.

 

I think Levein thought players could be  manufactured and having everyone playing the exact same way throughout the Club would bring better results, however playing systems don't last long before an astute Manager finds a way to beat them. Better to look for the best talent available  and take it from there as players need to be adaptable nowadays imho.

I mention Levein as we still following this football blue print for the Club and his "principles of play" manual.

 

Do we do enough "training with the ball"? Probably not.

 

Another thing that bugs me is for years now we have never set up a team to play to a Striker strengths, they are normally just an after thought. We now seem to be wrecking Shanklands' game too.

 

Its funny how football goes in circles . Wingers used to hit the bye line  and put in crosses as its the hardest cross to defend, then wingers cutting inside was the vogue and now the top EPL teams are back to having their wingers hitting the bye line and putting in crosses.

 

Our main problems I feel at present are that we have replaced a speedster in Ginnelly with a slow coach in Boycie as a number 10,,  As soon as he came back into the team our play went back to being ponderous. We haven't got anybody prepared to shoot from distance either. We need to shoot more.. 

I'm not having a go at Boyce as he is a good six yard penalty box striker but playing out of position..

 

Hopefully the football gets better soon.

Great post. Completely agree with this.

 

[KG1874]

On 23/09/2023 at 08:06, i8hibsh said:

 

 

I love your attitude but have you ever visited planet Earth?

Aye nae more predictions from that’s me 0-3 for the season