Dundee United are fecked - Goodwin appointed

[FWJ]

Talking about this (league size) on Saturday night with a mate.  
12 teams just so that you can get to play the OF 6/8 times is s***e.  Clubs only interested in the money.  Ok, fair enough they are businesses - but there’s so many of them treading water, barely afloat, they have to wh*re themselves out to the arsecheeks.  It’s a sorry state of affairs.

[MattyK82]

1 minute ago, OTT said:

 

I'd like Hearts to reignite those talks. We're not coming from a position that can be characterised as weakness anymore, and I think some excellent points could be made to really push the issue. 

 

Ultimately, it would benefit the whole of Scottish football to have an expanded top flight. 

Definitely. 
 

The whole of Scottish football would get behind it. I think even OF fans wouldn’t be against it.
 

Ultimately though, the fans views don’t count. Like we saw last time we pushed for reconstruction, it’s every man for himself. 
 

 

[davemclaren]

6 minutes ago, MattyK82 said:

All very good points. 
 

The league format was set up to favour two clubs. No other club will ever win the league or even get close to it in the current structure. Like you say, the games v the OF in one season equate to 24 pts (assuming you make the top 6). Effectively, you are doing very well if you can finish any less than 24 pts behind them. 
 

It’s also boring having to play the same teams multiple times a season. 
 

However, because of the 💩 set up in voting for reconstruction, I honestly have no hope it will change any time soon. 
 

Any sponsors which the SPFL are able to attract seem hell bent on having their quota of OF games, not considering how much excitement a larger top division would garner. 

To be fair, the premier league was very successful in the first ten years in terms of widening the competion to win as Aberdeen and Dundee UTD both won it.  
 

However, the old firm starting to really utilise their financial muscle in the mid 80s has resulted in no-one but the OF winning it since.  I doubt reconstruction will make much of a dent in that. 

[MattyK82]

4 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

To be fair, the premier league was very successful in the first ten years in terms of widening the competion to win as Aberdeen and Dundee UTD both won it.  
 

However, the old firm starting to really utilise their financial muscle in the mid 80s has resulted in no-one but the OF winning it since.  I doubt reconstruction will make much of a dent in that. 

I think it was around this point, the gate receipt rule came into effect (I am sure gates used to be more evenly split). So the OF, with their large stadiums and huge fan bases were able to absolutely dominate the division and they still do. 
 

A larger top division would likely still result in a league title heading to Glasgow but it would be a lot closer, if a team like Hearts could be consistent against all the other teams. 

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, That thing you do said:

Ive never understood the long term benefit of not having 14 to 16 teams. Sure, you miss an old firm gate, but bottom 6 teams miss one now. Its about time we increased the league so that the Hearts, Aberdeens, Uniteds and Hibses even are secure enough to give youngsters the experience they need and to improve the game overall. 12 is too cut throat and one bad season and youre in a right mess.

 

I also advocate summer football as it makes the occasion better than 3rd degree burns from spilt Bovri in the winter. 

 

16 team league is the perfect number. 30 games. You could have a split but 30 games gives better spaced out season. You could bring back Cup replays. 

 

20 odd years ago UEFA wanted everyone to do it but liked of England scuppered that. 

[Ked]

22 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

I'd like Hearts to reignite those talks. We're not coming from a position that can be characterised as weakness anymore, and I think some excellent points could be made to really push the issue. 

 

Ultimately, it would benefit the whole of Scottish football to have an expanded top flight. 

Not sure it would tbh.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

9 minutes ago, MattyK82 said:

I think it was around this point, the gate receipt rule came into effect (I am sure gates used to be more evenly split). So the OF, with their large stadiums and huge fan bases were able to absolutely dominate the division and they still do. 
 

A larger top division would likely still result in a league title heading to Glasgow but it would be a lot closer, if a team like Hearts could be consistent against all the other teams. 

 

Yip, when that rule came along the OF just got richer and richer and the rest poorer, it'll never go back now.

[Unknown user]

6 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

16 team league is the perfect number. 30 games. You could have a split but 30 games gives better spaced out season. You could bring back Cup replays. 

 

20 odd years ago UEFA wanted everyone to do it but liked of England scuppered that. 

30 games means losing 4 home games' worth of income without the extra measures.

 

I like 14 teams with a split - play each other home and away, after 26 games split into top and bottom 7. Then play each other home and away in your half to make 38 games.

 

The down side is that the bottom half only get 2 OF home games, and there a team with a week off every week after the split.

[Carter]

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

16 team league is the perfect number. 30 games. You could have a split but 30 games gives better spaced out season. You could bring back Cup replays. 

 

20 odd years ago UEFA wanted everyone to do it but liked of England scuppered that. 

16 teams does feel ideal. Only way there is even the remotest chance of stopping the duopoly. Would make home games against cheeks and Hibs / Aberdeen absolutely enormous. 

 

I suppose the counter argument is there could be so called meaningless games. Less direct opportunities for uglies to land a direct blow. Imagine if you could beat both a home. Anything could happen in those circumstances.

 

Feels as though we'd be one of the biggest beneficiaries of an enlarged league. Teams at the bottom end of the current set up would also benefit.

 

Cheeks love the status quo. Minimum 4 games against each other safe in the knowledge they'll both be miles clear. A Hearts or perish the thought, Hibs, could go pretty close in a 16 team league.

 

Would also be a competitive and well supported landscape without the uglies.

[OTT]

6 minutes ago, Ked said:

Not sure it would tbh.

 

Why? - The current format is terrible, predictable and staler than fortnight old bread. 

 

Teams outside the OF very rarely go unbeaten against each other because eventually the weaker team gets it right, combined with 8 horrible games the OF we end up with a gap that cannot be bridged. Seeking to do what we can to cut it down by bringing in more teams and reduce the impact the OF can have on your season makes sense. 

 

I think its 100% worth trying even for a 5 year trial to at least see if a fresh format re-engages fans of non-OF teams, sees better development of young talent and leads to a more exciting product. We've had 30 years of the same shit. You can't possibly advocate for the status quo?

Edited February 21, 2023 by OTT

[LauderJambo]

3 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Why? - The current format is terrible, predictable and staler than fortnight old bread. 

 

Teams outside the OF very rarely go unbeaten against each other because eventually the weaker team gets it right, combined with 8 horrible games the OF we end up with a gap that cannot be bridged. Seeking to do what we can to cut it down by bringing in more teams and reduce the impact the OF can have on your season makes sense. 

 

I think its 100% worth trying even for a 5 year trial to at least see if a fresh format re-engages fans of non-OF teams, sees better development of young talent and leads to a more exciting product. We've had 30 years of the same shit. You can't possibly advocate for the status quo?

I agree..not sure the OF will though?

[OTT]

6 minutes ago, LauderJambo said:

I agree..not sure the OF will though?

 

Always worth putting forward. Change isn't easily achieved, but if they vote it down (and them alone) then clubs can assess how to force through the change they want. Ultimately, the OF cannot play each other 38 times a season and there if a supermajority of clubs want it to happen then there is always the threat of a breakaway league and so forth. 

[Footballfirst]

21 minutes ago, MattyK82 said:

I think it was around this point, the gate receipt rule came into effect (I am sure gates used to be more evenly split). So the OF, with their large stadiums and huge fan bases were able to absolutely dominate the division and they still do. 
 

A larger top division would likely still result in a league title heading to Glasgow but it would be a lot closer, if a team like Hearts could be consistent against all the other teams. 

The vote to end gate sharing was actually as far back at October 1980 (it took effect the following season).

 

The game changer came in 1986 when Souness was brought in (amid the post Heysel ban on English clubs in Europe). Two years later David Murray became the major shareholder at Rangers, backed up with a blank cheque book from the Bank of Scotland.

 

Even Celtic couldn't cope and almost went bust in 1994 and were only saved at the last minute by Fergus McCann and his backers, including Dermot Desmond who remains there to this day.  

[Taffin]

Having an expanded league should also offer the opportunity for more youth players to get a run out as (and no disrespect intended) there's be 4 more 'lesser' teams in the calendar.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Taffin

[buzzbomb1958]

Oh dear what a shame never mind Dundee Hibernian you deserve every bit of pain coming to you , you chose to vote the way you did , well there you go KARMA IS A BITCH enjoy your demise because as sure as feck I THOROUGHLY WILL TA TA YOU SHOWER OF FILTHY ANIMALS

[buzzbomb1958]

Oh dear what a shame never mind Dundee Hibernian you deserve every bit of pain coming to you , you chose to vote the way you did , well there you go KARMA IS A BITCH enjoy your demise because as sure as feck I THOROUGHLY WILL TA TA YOU SHOWER OF FILTHY ANIMALS

[buzzbomb1958]

Oh dear what a shame never mind Dundee Hibernian you deserve every bit of pain coming to you , you chose to vote the way you did , well there you go KARMA IS A BITCH enjoy your demise because as sure as feck I THOROUGHLY WILL TA TA YOU SHOWER OF FILTHY ANIMALS

[Turkishcap]

The 2 cheeks have it all the way they want why would they want to change?

[Mikey1874]

I do think reconstruction is a long time away from being considered again. 

[jr ewing]

Wish it was Celtic and Ttfka Rangers again 🙄 

[Shooter McGavin]

Dear Dundee Utd,

 

Hurry up and die.

 

Regards,

Shooter

[Gizmo]

4 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

I do think reconstruction is a long time away from being considered again. 

I'd be quite affronted if reconstruction is mooted to save the likes of Utd. I still recall reconstruction to save Motherwell, but when there was a pandemic and brutally difficult financial landscapes for the clubs, we were told it simply wasn't the time. If that wasn't the time, then why should now be the time?

None of these welts could wait to stick the knife into us and then kick us whilst we were still twitching. I've got a long list and a long memory and will not forget the clubs who went out of their way to do us down. 

Utd are one of them. The only thing more pleasing than them going down would be for Ross County to lose the play-off and follow them down. If a meteorite could wipe out that "yer oot the gemme" of a lawyer the same weekend their relegations are confirmed...

 

[Unknown user]

😿

[gjcc]

If someone wants to do a sponsored walk from Tynie to Dundee, I’ll chip in for a few medicines for Utd. 

[Darkwhisky7]

In the words of Status Quo…down down deeper down. 👌😁

[jock _turd]

I would hate to see an established Scottish go under ... but in their case I would make an exception if they go belly up  will be delighted !

[1971fozzy]

2 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

According to their 2022 accounts, £9,339,576 was owed to Mark Ogren.

 

They also have a Scottish Government loan of £1.4m.

 

That’s shocking, more so for a club whose average attendance isn’t great and looking doomed. Their wages % to turnover was off the scale from memory and has backfired spectacularly. 
Their manager Fox seems a decent bloke but looks so far out his depth it’s scary. 
Looks like a hellish road ahead for the club and supporters.  God I’m glad we are fan owned and in great hands. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

1 hour ago, Peakybunnet said:

I have lived in Dundee for 9 years now. The support isn’t just in the City of Dundee but includes more affluent areas of Angus including Broughty Ferry, Monifieth and Carnoustie. Also stretching out to the rich villages in the Carse of Gowrie. 
 

Problem  is it’s spread between two clubs who play in the same street. 
It probably won’t happen but amalgamation is probably the best option for the region but the fans wouldn’t back it. 

 

Last time I ran the numbers the city of Dundee had one of the highest per capita attendances of anywhere in Scotland by quite a distance (Ross County being an odd one to calculate, of course). I think the rivalry feeds both clubs, and you can see with Aberdeen that having a market all to yourself doesn't mean success or high attendance.

 

I do think a ground share in a new stadium is a no-brainer, given that there's no geographic distinction between the clubs within the city. Do a land swap with that sports center a few blocks east of the stadiums—take the two football pitches that are there and put a stadium there, and turn the existing Dens and Tannadice pitches into community pitches. Each of the clubs could even keep their offices, shops, and museums at their old grounds. Far more sensible IMO than the thing Dundee is proposing on the edge of the city.

[WDJ87]

Will celebrate their inevitable demise 😁😁 karma's a bitch and I love her 😘

[TheBigO]

2 hours ago, Randy Marsh said:

Will not forget their actions during our demotion.  They had a chance to vote for a 14 team top flight that would have meant no harm to any club but didn't.  Feck them and their even worse rivals.

Nutshell

[jamboj]

15 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Last time I ran the numbers the city of Dundee had one of the highest per capita attendances of anywhere in Scotland by quite a distance (Ross County being an odd one to calculate, of course). I think the rivalry feeds both clubs, and you can see with Aberdeen that having a market all to yourself doesn't mean success or high attendance.

 

I do think a ground share in a new stadium is a no-brainer, given that there's no geographic distinction between the clubs within the city. Do a land swap with that sports center a few blocks east of the stadiums—take the two football pitches that are there and put a stadium there, and turn the existing Dens and Tannadice pitches into community pitches. Each of the clubs could even keep their offices, shops, and museums at their old grounds. Far more sensible IMO than the thing Dundee is proposing on the edge of the city.

Stadia are supposed to be revenue generating, outside of match days. That's why ground shares are so rare 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

1 minute ago, jamboj said:

Stadia are supposed to be revenue generating, outside of match days. That's why ground shares are so rare 

 

I have to believe a new shared stadium could generate more than Dens and Tannadice combined right now if designed correctly. I see the reason ground shares are rare is that teams are often tied to a specific geographic part of the city. Would Hibs ever consider moving to Gorgie or nearby, and would Hearts ever consider moving to Leith? I don't think so. Likewise Celtic would never move to Govan or Rangers to Parkhead.

 

But in Dundee there's no such division. They're literally a keeper's punt apart.

[iainmac]

2 hours ago, That thing you do said:

Ive never understood the long term benefit of not having 14 to 16 teams. Sure, you miss an old firm gate, but bottom 6 teams miss one now. Its about time we increased the league so that the Hearts, Aberdeens, Uniteds and Hibses even are secure enough to give youngsters the experience they need and to improve the game overall. 12 is too cut throat and one bad season and youre in a right mess.

 

I also advocate summer football as it makes the occasion better than 3rd degree burns from spilt Bovri in the winter. 

 

I once spilt mine over the guy sitting in the row in front of me in the Wheatfield. 

 

He doesn't sit there anymore. 

[The Hogfather]

Naive to believe clubs who hand over over 50% of their home stadium to the Old Firm would willingly vote to cut the number of home games they get against them both. It’s all well and good looking at this from our point of view, but no chance Livingston, St Johnstone, Dundee United or Motherwell vote for reconstruction. 

[frankblack]

Can't wait for those ****ers to drop back to the championship, where they belong.

 

Tinpot club with no fans.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

17 minutes ago, iainmac said:

 

I once spilt mine over the guy sitting in the row in front of me in the Wheatfield. 

 

He doesn't sit there anymore. 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Can't say I have any real seethe over United, financial pain for any other team however is karma. 

 

Just as well they are getting cash off Harry Souttar sell on

[upgotheheads]

3 hours ago, Jambo 4 Ever said:

We shouldn’t want any Scottish teams to go bust 

 

this

[upgotheheads]

16 minutes ago, frankblack said:

Can't wait for those ****ers to drop back to the championship, where they belong.

 

Tinpot club with no fans.

They're about the only club in Scotland outside of the arse-cheeks, us, Aberdeen and H1b5 who an attract 8k supporters on a regular basis.

[Cruyff]

Hope they die. 

[jamboinglasgow]

9 minutes ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

Can't say I have any real seethe over United, financial pain for any other team however is karma. 

 

Just as well they are getting cash off Harry Souttar sell on

 

Yeah I dont have any hatred towards United but as you say karma.

 

The debt is huge and puts them in a very bad position. I suspect from what the OP says that sales going back to the owner then the Souttar money will pay off some of that debt.

 

I would be intrigued to see what would happen if their owner does look to sell. One thing I have been surprised at, with the rise of group of clubs being owned by the same person or group to create a network to help each other and ultimately the club at the top (see the City group who own Man City, Girona, New York CIty FC and 10 other clubs,) is that none of these groups have tried to buy a Scottish club. It would took little investment, you have a good place to loan players, its easier to get a work permit for a player than in England (especially lower leagues) and done right you can get regular European football. Dundee United would be an ideal one for that, especially when you throw in an academy system that has provided quite a few players to EPL academies in recent years.

[Libertarian]

3 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

 

At this point I don't care who it rescues, if it gets a bigger top tier, two games between every club, and no split, I'll take it.

 

As for United, you would think they'd have a decent chance of organizing fan ownership. But the other clubs that have tried haven't been able to get the traction that FoH got.

I would prefer a top league of 16 or 18 Each club plays one another once home and away but due to the TV demands it's never going to happen. A compromise would be a 14 team top league. Play one another twice then split into top 8 and bottom 6 and play one another twice again.

[Mikey1874]

31 minutes ago, The Hogfather said:

Naive to believe clubs who hand over over 50% of their home stadium to the Old Firm would willingly vote to cut the number of home games they get against them both. It’s all well and good looking at this from our point of view, but no chance Livingston, St Johnstone, Dundee United or Motherwell vote for reconstruction. 

 

Yeah, it ain't happening unless the rules totally change. 

 

Clubs shouldn't be able to veto. 

[Thomaso]

3 hours ago, Le Chat said:

Good.  I fecking hate Dundee Utd.

They’ve injured more Hearts players than the rest of the league put together!

[King of the North]

Their antics when we were being punted out the top flight will live long in the memory. 

 

Maybe they could get those two ******s to do another sponsored walk. 

 

Otherwise, they should quietly take their medicine.

 

Karma. Zero sympathy, whatever happens. 

[jamboinglasgow]

7 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Yeah, it ain't happening unless the rules totally change. 

 

Clubs shouldn't be able to veto. 

 

Everything about it is a demonstration how Scottish football backed itself into a corner. Clubs dependent on 4 home matches against the old firm, a tv deal too small for clubs to agree to taking a slightly lower amount of money so that the pot can be shared with more, a voting system that requires 11 in favour creating an easy veto, League two clubs who will never vote for reconstruction due to them knowing that non-league clubs are bigger and stronger and so they would lose their place, no real reserve league creating some clubs wanting B clubs and causing conflict, a league system that keeps Old Firm at the top. I could go on and on and on. 

[Martin_T]

Used to be very much in favour of an expanded top flight, but not sure now. Would more games with less at stake, really be that much of a draw? 

[PaddysBar]

3 hours ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

Aye we should. 

 

The *******s taken us to court, voted fir us ti go down and told us ti sick it up.

We took them to court ya bam🤣

[Rudy T]

Can we just get rid of Dundee, the whole place not just their shitty football teams. 

[Cade]