Dundee United are fecked - Goodwin appointed

[That thing you do]

Talking to a pal who supports United and they have just had their AGM, which had a small protest at it.

 

Anyway, outcome of the AGM is

- Tony Asghar and Liam Fox not going anywhere "Tony is his man"

- Ogrens not putting any more money into the pot

- Ogrens not coming over next season

- Seems business and sales (latest being Rory McLeod to Fulham) are the order of the day

- Sales will go back into owners pocket, so no money in the club.

 

Interesting question is, what would be the best strategy for United fans:

 

Take relegation into the Championship, lower the asking price, possibly make fan ownership like FOH viable.

Try and stay up, knowing that a buy out costs more and the club is just going to sit 6-11th the next few years

Boycott games and take money out of the owners pockets

Protest at every game until their gone.

 

I think Administration is a very near certainty if the above is true. Be as well taking the points off this season if it comes to that.

 

Think turmoil is heading to Tannadice St

 

Discuss....

 

[Gorgierools]

When's the walk?

[Le Chat]

Good.  I fecking hate Dundee Utd.

[Carter]

Relegation will be a disaster for them this season. Seem the club that would be most impacted by the financial consequences of relegation.

 

Looks fairly likely they'll be the bottom side. Good bit still to go but they look a poor side. Fox looks out of his depth in all honesty.

[Footballfirst]

According to their 2022 accounts, £9,339,576 was owed to Mark Ogren.

 

They also have a Scottish Government loan of £1.4m.

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Footballfirst

[That thing you do]

2 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

According to their 2022 accounts, £9,339,576 was owed to Mark Ogren.

Yeah, hes invested 12 Mil in apparently but seems to be on a loan basis and hes being paid back. Not a kindness of your heart benefactor giving it in.

[That thing you do]

The most alarming thing I heard happened at the AGM is fans asking "Dont you worry about Relegation Mark?"

 

To whcih he apparently said "If we go down we can always come straight back up" - if true, Asghar has a Phd in Bullshit as theres no chance United get back in one year. None.

 

The other conspiracy theory is the American at Dundee wants the clubs to merge as soon as they are in the same league. A Chernobyl like meltdoon would be seen from Edinburgh if that came to pass.

[SectionDJambo]

That reconstruction idea that was flung out, when it was just regarded as just being a bail out for Hearts, probably seems like a good idea for some now. Spite won over common sense.

Personally, I would like to see the idea of reconstruction brought back into focus, if only to see if it would make it more likely that teams could, in a given season when things went well, more likely to challenge for the title.

As things are, no club other than Rangers or Celtic, has any chance of winning the league when there are 24 points at stake by playing both of them 4 times.

Edited February 21, 2023 by SectionDJambo

[Jambo 4 Ever]

17 minutes ago, Le Chat said:

Good.  I fecking hate Dundee Utd.

We shouldn’t want any Scottish teams to go bust 

 

[OTT]

Scottish clubs are best kept in the hands of fans. 
 

but, they can do another sponsored walk. Pricks.

[neilnunb]

[neilnunb]

Add on:

 

Just a pity Raith are going to get a windfall from their cup trip to Ibrox...

 

😐

[King prawn]

21 minutes ago, Gorgierools said:

When's the walk?

 first thing that came to mind 

[Randy Marsh]

Will not forget their actions during our demotion.  They had a chance to vote for a 14 team top flight that would have meant no harm to any club but didn't.  Feck them and their even worse rivals.

[EIEIO]

12 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

According to their 2022 accounts, £9,339,576 was owed to Mark Ogren.

 

They also have a Scottish Government loan of £1.4m.

 

Their sell on fee for Harry Souttar is their only financial positive since these accounts.

[That thing you do]

8 minutes ago, SectionDJambo said:

That reconstruction idea that was flung out, when it was just regarded as just being a bail out for Hearts, probably seems like a good idea for some now. Spite won over common sense.

Personally, I would like to see the idea of reconstruction brought back into focus, if only to see if it would make it more likely that teams could, in a given season when things went well, more likely to challenge for the title.

As things are, no club other than Rangers or Celtic, has any chance of winning the league when there are 24 points at stake by playing both of them 4 times.

Was it not Aberdeen that voted no to change when Rangers were but a brand new club in League 1 or somewhere? Sure it was the Dons that shit the bed on that.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

11 minutes ago, SectionDJambo said:

That reconstruction idea that was flung out, when it was just regarded as just being a bail out for Hearts, probably seems like a good idea for some now. Spite won over common sense.

Personally, I would like to see the idea of reconstruction brought back into focus, if only to see if it would make it more likely that teams could, in a given season when things went well, more likely to challenge for the title.

As things are, no club other than Rangers or Celtic, has any chance of winning the league when there are 24 points at stake by playing both of them 4 times.

 

At this point I don't care who it rescues, if it gets a bigger top tier, two games between every club, and no split, I'll take it.

 

As for United, you would think they'd have a decent chance of organizing fan ownership. But the other clubs that have tried haven't been able to get the traction that FoH got.

[Bazzas right boot]

 

That will be a lot of spoonfuls.

 

[That thing you do]

4 minutes ago, Randy Marsh said:

Will not forget their actions during our demotion.  They had a chance to vote for a 14 team top flight that would have meant no harm to any club but didn't.  Feck them and their even worse rivals.

Ive never understood the long term benefit of not having 14 to 16 teams. Sure, you miss an old firm gate, but bottom 6 teams miss one now. Its about time we increased the league so that the Hearts, Aberdeens, Uniteds and Hibses even are secure enough to give youngsters the experience they need and to improve the game overall. 12 is too cut throat and one bad season and youre in a right mess.

 

I also advocate summer football as it makes the occasion better than 3rd degree burns from spilt Bovri in the winter. 

[Bazzas right boot]

13 minutes ago, Jambo 4 Ever said:

We shouldn’t want any Scottish teams to go bust 

 

 

Aye we should. 

 

The *******s taken us to court, voted fir us ti go down and told us ti sick it up.

[Bazzas right boot]

Levitt to us for abput £150k after relegation would be the cherry on top.

[That thing you do]

1 minute ago, Led Tasso said:

 

At this point I don't care who it rescues, if it gets a bigger top tier, two games between every club, and no split, I'll take it.

 

As for United, you would think they'd have a decent chance of organizing fan ownership. But the other clubs that have tried haven't been able to get the traction that FoH got.

They have the DUSF and its raised somewhere around 350k I think on pledges and off contributions. Its a hard one, the fan base is half of Hearts and lets be honest, theres no alot of cash flying around in the City of Dundee to put it in either. It could work, but much harder ask than FOH.

[That thing you do]

1 minute ago, Bazzas right boot said:

Levitt to us for abput £150k after relegation would be the cherry on top.

Neilson seems to like a swoop for a player connected to United so I wouldnt be surprised. Worth asking imo.

[indianajones]

Hope they cease to exist. 

 

**** them and their fans. 

[GBJambo]

16 minutes ago, Jambo 4 Ever said:

We shouldn’t want any Scottish teams to go bust 

 

Nope **** em. They voted for us to be demoted and they were also happy when we went into admin 

[Boris5115]

Tough titty. Hopefully St Midden and Dundee are next. 

[Rick Sanchez]

24 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

According to their 2022 accounts, £9,339,576 was owed to Mark Ogren.

 

They also have a Scottish Government loan of £1.4m.

 

 

I was about to mention that 3m Souttar cash as a saving grace for relegation.

 

Maybe not.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

1 minute ago, That thing you do said:

Ive never understood the long term benefit of not having 14 to 16 teams. Sure, you miss an old firm gate, but bottom 6 teams miss one now. Its about time we increased the league so that the Hearts, Aberdeens, Uniteds and Hibses even are secure enough to give youngsters the experience they need and to improve the game overall. 12 is too cut throat and one bad season and youre in a right mess.

 

I also advocate summer football as it makes the occasion better than 3rd degree burns from spilt Bovri in the winter. 

 

12 is too cutthroat and the repetitiveness of 3 or 4 games per team, plus potentially seeing them in two different cups, is just tiresome. There was an old argument that there weren't enough "SPFL-level clubs" to fill out a top flight but there's now 4 teams in the Championship and 3 in League One who've spent years in the top flight in recent decades and acquitted themselves perfectly well, and next season two clubs may come up who've not seen top flight action in years but will probably do fine. 18 club top flight would be broad and enjoyable.

 

If they need more OF games or other derbies just fudge the League Cup format to provide it.

[That thing you do]

Just now, Led Tasso said:

 

12 is too cutthroat and the repetitiveness of 3 or 4 games per team, plus potentially seeing them in two different cups, is just tiresome. There was an old argument that there weren't enough "SPFL-level clubs" to fill out a top flight but there's now 4 teams in the Championship and 3 in League One who've spent years in the top flight in recent decades and acquitted themselves perfectly well, and next season two clubs may come up who've not seen top flight action in years but will probably do fine. 18 club top flight would be broad and enjoyable.

 

If they need more OF games or other derbies just fudge the League Cup format to provide it.

Hard to disagree with that to be honest.

[Randy Marsh]

3 minutes ago, That thing you do said:

Ive never understood the long term benefit of not having 14 to 16 teams. Sure, you miss an old firm gate, but bottom 6 teams miss one now. Its about time we increased the league so that the Hearts, Aberdeens, Uniteds and Hibses even are secure enough to give youngsters the experience they need and to improve the game overall. 12 is too cut throat and one bad season and youre in a right mess.

 

I also advocate summer football as it makes the occasion better than 3rd degree burns from spilt Bovri in the winter. 

Correct.  You pretty much answered your own question as clubs like Dundee United want as many OF home matches as possible.  It's a very short sighted mindset and the reason I don't care when I hear the term 'diddy teams'.  They are.

[Paolo]

10 minutes ago, That thing you do said:

Was it not Aberdeen that voted no to change when Rangers were but a brand new club in League 1 or somewhere? Sure it was the Dons that shit the bed on that.

Something like that.  The one chance to achieve the 11-1 vote in favour of reconstruction, and as you say, they shat it. 

[Ministryofdad]

39 minutes ago, Gorgierools said:

When's the walk?

Exactly 

**** Dundee hibenian and everyone that sails inside her. 

[pettigrewsstylist]

22 minutes ago, SectionDJambo said:

That reconstruction idea that was flung out, when it was just regarded as just being a bail out for Hearts, probably seems like a good idea for some now. Spite won over common sense.

Personally, I would like to see the idea of reconstruction brought back into focus, if only to see if it would make it more likely that teams could, in a given season when things went well, more likely to challenge for the title.

As things are, no club other than Rangers or Celtic, has any chance of winning the league when there are 24 points at stake by playing both of them 4 times.

Yip, larger league been needed for so many reason for years.

No long term vision amongst top flight owners to vote against uglies and dictate "terms" holds us back.

[Pasquale for King]

Definitely should be looking at anyone worth taking off them, good to see nobody has any sympathy for them. 

[Thunder and Lightning]

Ho Ho Ho. 

 

Bye bye. 

[ShedBoy]

What absolutely wonderful news to come home to.

 

 

 

Next

[pettigrewsstylist]

16 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

Levitt to us for abput £150k after relegation would be the cherry on top.

Would be competition there! Some signing to pull off at that price.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

12 minutes ago, That thing you do said:

They have the DUSF and its raised somewhere around 350k I think on pledges and off contributions. Its a hard one, the fan base is half of Hearts and lets be honest, theres no alot of cash flying around in the City of Dundee to put it in either. It could work, but much harder ask than FOH.

 

This seems to be the consensus opinion on here about Dundee, and I haven't spent any time there myself, but it's hard to see in the median income or the index of multiple deprivation stats. Dundee's average income is a bit lower than Midlothian but only a little bit and nowhere near the lowest areas. The income for Dundee City as a place of work is actually a bit higher than the Scotland average. It has some "most deprived" areas but so does Edinburgh.

 

It'll be a harder ask than FoH but it's also a smaller club with fewer assets.

[Spitonastranger]

no sympathy for them, but on a personal note one of my favorite away days 🍺

[Japan Jambo]

17 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

12 is too cutthroat and the repetitiveness of 3 or 4 games per team, plus potentially seeing them in two different cups, is just tiresome. There was an old argument that there weren't enough "SPFL-level clubs" to fill out a top flight but there's now 4 teams in the Championship and 3 in League One who've spent years in the top flight in recent decades and acquitted themselves perfectly well, and next season two clubs may come up who've not seen top flight action in years but will probably do fine. 18 club top flight would be broad and enjoyable.

 

If they need more OF games or other derbies just fudge the League Cup format to provide it.

 

Make it a 20 team league where everyone plays each other twice, won't be nearly as rigged as it is now.

 

OF can come up with two bullshit annual exhibition matches where the play with each other to satisfy Sky's quota - they could play for a Qatar cup in Doha and the Toyota cup in Japan - it'd satisfy Sky, sponsors can put up the moola and it'll pander to their aspirations of global dominance.

[OTT]

14 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

12 is too cutthroat and the repetitiveness of 3 or 4 games per team, plus potentially seeing them in two different cups, is just tiresome. There was an old argument that there weren't enough "SPFL-level clubs" to fill out a top flight but there's now 4 teams in the Championship and 3 in League One who've spent years in the top flight in recent decades and acquitted themselves perfectly well, and next season two clubs may come up who've not seen top flight action in years but will probably do fine. 18 club top flight would be broad and enjoyable.

 

If they need more OF games or other derbies just fudge the League Cup format to provide it.

 

Absolutely. I think playing each other 3/4 times a season PLUS CUPS is a complete and utter embarrassment TBH. The league format isn't enjoyable and as you say, basically consists of a two horse forgone conclusion and everyone from 3rd down cutting each others throats. It gives mediocre teams and managers too many chances to take points off you, most managers can figure out how to stop you at least once in 4 kicks at the ball... Once home and once away, makes fixtures more exciting as there is no chance to 'put right' a defeat until the following season. If we lose against Hibs at home, then thats it until the next season. The fixtures automatically have more value. 

 

It would also cut the deficit at the top of the league. Every season we see at least a 20 point gap because 24 points of your total are tied up with getting a result against the gruesome twosome. Celtic and Rangers would still remain the dominant teams, but if that gap could be halved through league reconstruction then that would make the product more exciting. Suddenly 3rd has the potential to only be a few points behind 2nd/1st. There is also the mental damage defeats to the OF do, Celtic and Rangers can easily put 3/4 goals past Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs, so if we're having to play one of them every 7(ish) games then there is minimal room to put together any sort of run, and then following a pumping the run is ruined and the players usually struggle to get going again. 

 

These folk trying to say it would create meaningless games should maybe go and ask some youth players about their debuts. Most youngsters get their debut in meaningless end of season games, our end to the season was about as meaningless as it could get. A cup final, but the last 4 league games were nothing more than a 90 minute run about and praying no one gets injured. A bigger league would open up things for clubs with less resources and for the OF plus Edinburgh clubs and Aberdeen to hopefully loan out youngsters to clubs that can develop them, whilst also hopefully providing fixtures where they can feel confident about blooding youth. 

 

It might actually encourage teams to have a go, if you're Falkirk for example and you're playing Rangers/Celtic, realistically the chance of you picking up 3 pts is slim anyway, so why not give it a go and see if you can stun them? The impact of losing 4 games against them is halved and suddenly its not quite so big a deal. 

 

There isn't a sporting reason to keep the status quo. Its diddies like St Johnstone or Killie that hand over 2/3 stands to the OF which just flat out shouldn't be allowed. Using an away crowd to subsidise your existence is a sign you need to do better in attracting home fans, St Mirren have done exceptionally well recently in doing exactly that and they are building their following as a result. I think fans can get behind a club showing a bit of self respect. 

[OTT]

7 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Make it a 20 team league where everyone plays each other twice, won't be nearly as rigged as it is now.

 

OF can come up with two bullshit annual exhibition matches where the play with each other to satisfy Sky's quota - they could play for a Qatar cup in Doha and the Toyota cup in Japan - it'd satisfy Sky, sponsors can put up the moola and it'll pander to their aspirations of global dominance.

 

Aye, call it the Glasgow cup and they can play each other home and away. Job done and Sky Quota ticked. 

 

Or bring in a community shield, they'll be playing each other most seasons that way anyway.

[ToadKiller Dog]

 

58 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

According to their 2022 accounts, £9,339,576 was owed to Mark Ogren.

 

They also have a Scottish Government loan of £1.4m.

 

Reading  Ogren said today its 13m now owed to him and the Government .

Edited February 21, 2023 by ToadKiller Dog

[jambo1998]

Good stuff, feck em.

[Sooks]

1 hour ago, That thing you do said:

Talking to a pal who supports United and they have just had their AGM, which had a small protest at it.

 

Anyway, outcome of the AGM is

- Tony Asghar and Liam Fox not going anywhere "Tony is his man"

- Ogrens not putting any more money into the pot

- Ogrens not coming over next season

- Seems business and sales (latest being Rory McLeod to Fulham) are the order of the day

- Sales will go back into owners pocket, so no money in the club.

 

Interesting question is, what would be the best strategy for United fans:

 

Take relegation into the Championship, lower the asking price, possibly make fan ownership like FOH viable.

Try and stay up, knowing that a buy out costs more and the club is just going to sit 6-11th the next few years

Boycott games and take money out of the owners pockets

Protest at every game until their gone.

 

I think Administration is a very near certainty if the above is true. Be as well taking the points off this season if it comes to that.

 

Think turmoil is heading to Tannadice St

 

Discuss....

 

What they need to do , is get a duplicitous wee weasel ***** in as manager and give him a percentage of the fees from player sales . That should work ……………. It might result in another half a decade in the Championship but who cares right 

 

I dont think wee Jackie McNamara is up to much these days may be ask him to get involved 

 

Get ****ed United 

[MattyK82]

3 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Absolutely. I think playing each other 3/4 times a season PLUS CUPS is a complete and utter embarrassment TBH. The league format isn't enjoyable and as you say, basically consists of a two horse forgone conclusion and everyone from 3rd down cutting each others throats. It gives mediocre teams and managers too many chances to take points off you, most managers can figure out how to stop you at least once in 4 kicks at the ball... Once home and once away, makes fixtures more exciting as there is no chance to 'put right' a defeat until the following season. If we lose against Hibs at home, then thats it until the next season. The fixtures automatically have more value. 

 

It would also cut the deficit at the top of the league. Every season we see at least a 20 point gap because 24 points of your total are tied up with getting a result against the gruesome twosome. Celtic and Rangers would still remain the dominant teams, but if that gap could be halved through league reconstruction then that would make the product more exciting. Suddenly 3rd has the potential to only be a few points behind 2nd/1st. There is also the mental damage defeats to the OF do, Celtic and Rangers can easily put 3/4 goals past Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs, so if we're having to play one of them every 7(ish) games then there is minimal room to put together any sort of run, and then following a pumping the run is ruined and the players usually struggle to get going again. 

 

These folk trying to say it would create meaningless games should maybe go and ask some youth players about their debuts. Most youngsters get their debut in meaningless end of season games, our end to the season was about as meaningless as it could get. A cup final, but the last 4 league games were nothing more than a 90 minute run about and praying no one gets injured. A bigger league would open up things for clubs with less resources and for the OF plus Edinburgh clubs and Aberdeen to hopefully loan out youngsters to clubs that can develop them, whilst also hopefully providing fixtures where they can feel confident about blooding youth. 

 

It might actually encourage teams to have a go, if you're Falkirk for example and you're playing Rangers/Celtic, realistically the chance of you picking up 3 pts is slim anyway, so why not give it a go and see if you can stun them? The impact of losing 4 games against them is halved and suddenly its not quite so big a deal. 

 

There isn't a sporting reason to keep the status quo. Its diddies like St Johnstone or Killie that hand over 2/3 stands to the OF which just flat out shouldn't be allowed. Using an away crowd to subsidise your existence is a sign you need to do better in attracting home fans, St Mirren have done exceptionally well recently in doing exactly that and they are building their following as a result. I think fans can get behind a club showing a bit of self respect. 

All very good points. 
 

The league format was set up to favour two clubs. No other club will ever win the league or even get close to it in the current structure. Like you say, the games v the OF in one season equate to 24 pts (assuming you make the top 6). Effectively, you are doing very well if you can finish any less than 24 pts behind them. 
 

It’s also boring having to play the same teams multiple times a season. 
 

However, because of the 💩 set up in voting for reconstruction, I honestly have no hope it will change any time soon. 
 

Any sponsors which the SPFL are able to attract seem hell bent on having their quota of OF games, not considering how much excitement a larger top division would garner. 

[That thing you do]

5 minutes ago, ToadKiller Dog said:

 

Reading  Ogren said today its 13m now owed to him and the Government .

Yep. Ogren has put in 12m up to now, the SG covid loan is 1.4m.

 

Ogren intends to get back as much as he can, without putting more in. I wouldnt be surprised if Souttar and McLeod money is 100% going to the States

[Peakybunnet]

19 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

This seems to be the consensus opinion on here about Dundee, and I haven't spent any time there myself, but it's hard to see in the median income or the index of multiple deprivation stats. Dundee's average income is a bit lower than Midlothian but only a little bit and nowhere near the lowest areas. The income for Dundee City as a place of work is actually a bit higher than the Scotland average. It has some "most deprived" areas but so does Edinburgh.

 

It'll be a harder ask than FoH but it's also a smaller club with fewer assets.

I have lived in Dundee for 9 years now. The support isn’t just in the City of Dundee but includes more affluent areas of Angus including Broughty Ferry, Monifieth and Carnoustie. Also stretching out to the rich villages in the Carse of Gowrie. 
 

Problem  is it’s spread between two clubs who play in the same street. 
It probably won’t happen but amalgamation is probably the best option for the region but the fans wouldn’t back it. 

[OTT]

1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

According to their 2022 accounts, £9,339,576 was owed to Mark Ogren.

 

They also have a Scottish Government loan of £1.4m.

 

 

They really are absolutely ****ed. 

 

I don't see how they come back from this, genuinely. Its not (our) pre-admin figure, or Rangers HMRC debt, but its still a lot of money for a club that size and it will be growing in interest every day... I don't see where they generate the money to begin to pay that back. Most clubs in a good season turn a slim profit. Its only through selling key players where big(ish) money can be made. They don't really have anyone thats worth selling though and prize money alone isn't enough.. Levitt might net them a few hundred grand, but the days of Ryan Gauld, John Souttar, GMS, Russell, Goodwillie and the rest are long gone. 

 

It really underlines how important fan ownership is. Ogrens spending was out of control long ago, I can remember folk on here balking at the money allegedly being spent on Shankland when he was there (£5k p/w in the Championship was quoted, how true IDK). It was reckless spending chasing.. promotion to the Scottish Premiership? They shouldn't have needed to spend that kind of money when they have crowds of between 5 and 7 thousand (right?). 

 

Unless there is a local wealthy fan waiting in the wings to sort them out, they are looking at years of trying to manage that debt. 

[OTT]

3 minutes ago, MattyK82 said:

All very good points. 
 

The league format was set up to favour two clubs. No other club will ever win the league or even get close to it in the current structure. Like you say, the games v the OF in one season equate to 24 pts (assuming you make the top 6). Effectively, you are doing very well if you can finish any less than 24 pts behind them. 
 

It’s also boring having to play the same teams multiple times a season. 
 

However, because of the 💩 set up in voting for reconstruction, I honestly have no hope it will change any time soon. 
 

Any sponsors which the SPFL are able to attract seem hell bent on having their quota of OF games, not considering how much excitement a larger top division would garner. 

 

I'd like Hearts to reignite those talks. We're not coming from a position that can be characterised as weakness anymore, and I think some excellent points could be made to really push the issue. 

 

Ultimately, it would benefit the whole of Scottish football to have an expanded top flight.