****The All In One LGBTQ+ & Related Issues Mega Thread****

[Dawnrazor]

3 minutes ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

 

 

 But I'd add ...that identifies as a female.

 

 

 

That's the crux of the argument, just because you say you're a woman doesn't make you a woman, you're male and should not be allowed into womens safe spaces as you're a biological man.

[JudyJudyJudy]

14 minutes ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

 

I'll do my best

(y'haven't set a trap for me here have you? 🤣)

 

 what is a woman ?
Good question. Although I agree fully with you: an adult human being. But I'd add ...that identifies as a female.

 

How does one” prove “ they are another sex ?

Not easily that's for sure, especially as to get a GRC you have to convince a panel of 14 'experts' whatever that means. That's why I do not think people should get so fired up with rage about abusive men trying to use the system to assault or intimidate women.

 

How do u live as the other sex ?

I genuinely don't know but see above answer.

 

How do you prove this ?

See above

 

how can you be “ born in the wrong body “ ? 

I guess if you are born with male or female genitalia but everything else in your psyche screams you are the other gender.

 

thanks for answering 

[JudyJudyJudy]

9 minutes ago, jonesy said:

However, if there is no strict definition of what a man or woman is (i.e. completely subjective with indeterminate limits), then it is impossible to have been wrong in the wrong body. You can have effeminate men and butch women, it doesn't mean they need to chop bits off or fashion outy bits out of inny bits.

Exactly 

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

9 minutes ago, jonesy said:

However, if there is no strict definition of what a man or woman is (i.e. completely subjective with indeterminate limits), then it is impossible to have been wrong in the wrong body. You can have effeminate men and butch women, it doesn't mean they need to chop bits off or fashion outy bits out of inny bits.

 

Fair point.

 

It seems like it's only now that we are (rightly) starting to question the definitions. And we could argue on the head of a philosophical pin for the next millennia.

 

But, for me, it all boils down to how we best support vulnerable groups within our complex society. The more we learn, the more we start to understand the gaps appreciate how difficult it is for those who feel shut out. 

[Taffin]

23 minutes ago, jonesy said:

However, if there is no strict definition of what a man or woman is (i.e. completely subjective with indeterminate limits), then it is impossible to have been wrong in the wrong body. You can have effeminate men and butch women, it doesn't mean they need to chop bits off or fashion outy bits out of inny bits.

 

 

What if a male wanted to be a women who wore "men's" clothes and had "men's" interests...I wonder how they'd go about doing that or how the panel would review them.

 

 

Interestingly one could say Nicola Sturgeon exhibits historically male traits. Short hair, wears a suit, leader of a country...thankfully times moved on and that doesn't make her any less of a female. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Taffin

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

support vulnerable groups within our complex society.

children are the most vulnerable group in society.

 

Women next * 2/3 murdered each week.  

 

 

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

20 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

That's the crux of the argument, just because you say you're a woman doesn't make you a woman, you're male and should not be allowed into womens safe spaces as you're a biological man.

 

As I've said before, we already accommodate men who identify as women in female prisons (subject to risk assessment). As mentioned by other posts above, the rest of the UK already has a Gender Recognition Act. The Scottish version is, as far as I can tell, only proposing to shorten the timescale from 2 years to 3 months and reduce the age from 18 to 16.

 

Has the current GRA led to any of the scare stories that have flooded the press? How will making these changes suddenly create more?

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

3 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

children are the most vulnerable group in society.

 

Women next * 2/3 murdered each week.  

 

 

 

 

And we need to make places safer for them.

 

Making physical spaces safer is not difficult to do. And it doesn't have to mean leaving other vulnerable young people behind.

 

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

22 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

thanks for answering 

 

Thanks for being patient with me after I started by having a go at something you posted. Cheers 👍

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

 

Thanks for being patient with me after I started by having a go at something you posted. Cheers 👍

No bother. 

[TheJacobite]

Been said a million times before but

a man in a dress is still a man 

a man who thinks he should be a woman has mental issues and should be helped on that basis 

a man who goes through “gender reassignment” surgery is a sterilised man and can never be one a woman 

These are the facts

I’m all for live and let live and abhor discrimination and bigotry but stating the above facts is not discriminatory or bigoted

Trans people should have the same rights as everyone else and should be treated with respect the same as everyone else but that doesn’t mean pretending to believe the impossible 

I wish I was 30 years old but it ain’t gonna happen however I dress or do my hair

Get real people 

[i wish jj was my dad]

8 hours ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

The legislation does not do that. And it’s honesty and truth that should come first. 
 

Of course women must be listened to. The risks and threats must be addressed to allow women to feel safe. 

 

The threat of abusive men pretending to live as a woman for 3 months just to get a certificate is, however, so marginal, so unlikely, that it is clouding this whole issue and knocking it way out of proportion.
 

Of course we have violent individuals who will abuse any system - like David Carrick, a Police elite firearms officer who used his position to commit multiple rapes and other awful offences. Now that threat is very real and the Met are also investigating 800 current sexual offences by serving officers, but no one is calling for the shutdown of the Met. 
 

But the intention behind GRA is to recognise and support vulnerable young and older people who also feel threatened and marginalised every day.
 

This will help them to feel like they belong in a society that cares. To feel they are normal.

 

They don’t need to feel like they are being labelled as sex offenders just because we can’t agree on the exact wording of an Act.
 

 

This in spades. We've seen an example today of the sort of inflammatory nonsense that has been triggered by militant transphobia. 

If the Act is flawed, there are mechanisms to amend it. James Kelly managed to do that with a well intentioned but flawed attempt to stop bigotry at football.  It stuck in my craw but that's democracy. 

It's more grown up and much less offensive than rabble rousing and yelling paedo enabler. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

14 minutes ago, TheJacobite said:

Been said a million times before but

a man in a dress is still a man 

a man who thinks he should be a woman has mental issues and should be helped on that basis 

a man who goes through “gender reassignment” surgery is a sterilised man and can never be one a woman 

These are the facts

I’m all for live and let live and abhor discrimination and bigotry but stating the above facts is not discriminatory or bigoted

Trans people should have the same rights as everyone else and should be treated with respect the same as everyone else but that doesn’t mean pretending to believe the impossible 

I wish I was 30 years old but it ain’t gonna happen however I dress or do my hair

Get real people 

👍

[Bobilius]

25 minutes ago, TheJacobite said:

Been said a million times before but

a man in a dress is still a man 

a man who thinks he should be a woman has mental issues and should be helped on that basis 

a man who goes through “gender reassignment” surgery is a sterilised man and can never be one a woman 

These are the facts

I’m all for live and let live and abhor discrimination and bigotry but stating the above facts is not discriminatory or bigoted

Trans people should have the same rights as everyone else and should be treated with respect the same as everyone else but that doesn’t mean pretending to believe the impossible 

I wish I was 30 years old but it ain’t gonna happen however I dress or do my hair

Get real people 

 

10 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

👍

I take it you both believe the 2004 Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

[TheJacobite]

13 minutes ago, Bobilius said:

 

I take it you both believe the 2004 Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

Do I believe men should be allowed in female only places such as changing rooms?

No definitely not

Would a trans “man” ie a woman who has not had surgery be sensible showering in a male changing room

No

Should trans people be discriminated against in day to day life eg jobs, benefits, medical treatment, socialising etc 

Of course not

but

Biological sex is a reality not a concept

 

[the posh bit]

1 hour ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

children are the most vulnerable group in society.

 

Women next * 2/3 murdered each week.  

 

 

 

How many men are murdered each week? 

[i wish jj was my dad]

1 hour ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

 

Fair point.

 

It seems like it's only now that we are (rightly) starting to question the definitions. And we could argue on the head of a philosophical pin for the next millennia.

 

But, for me, it all boils down to how we best support vulnerable groups within our complex society. The more we learn, the more we start to understand the gaps appreciate how difficult it is for those who feel shut out. 

Good post. It's refreshing to see an objective view and open mind.  Surely, the debate should be about how we support a vulnerable minority rather than demonising them

I don't know how we find a way through this but I have some confidence that future generations will look back on this rather hysterical reaction in the same way as we now view Alf Garnett types of the 70s and 80s. 

[Bobilius]

13 minutes ago, TheJacobite said:

Do I believe men should be allowed in female only places such as changing rooms?

No definitely not

Would a trans “man” ie a woman who has not had surgery be sensible showering in a male changing room

No

Should trans people be discriminated against in day to day life eg jobs, benefits, medical treatment, socialising etc 

Of course not

but

Biological sex is a reality not a concept

 

So repeal the 2004 Act?

[the posh bit]

15 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Good post. It's refreshing to see an objective view and open mind.  Surely, the debate should be about how we support a vulnerable minority rather than demonising them

I don't know how we find a way through this but I have some confidence that future generations will look back on this rather hysterical reaction in the same way as we now view Alf Garnett types of the 70s and 80s. 

 

I think future generations will pish their pants at folk back in 2023 thinking that men would apply to change their sex just so they could abuse vulnerable women in their safe public spaces 😁

[Dawnrazor]

1 hour ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said:

 

As I've said before, we already accommodate men who identify as women in female prisons (subject to risk assessment). As mentioned by other posts above, the rest of the UK already has a Gender Recognition Act. The Scottish version is, as far as I can tell, only proposing to shorten the timescale from 2 years to 3 months and reduce the age from 18 to 16.

 

Has the current GRA led to any of the scare stories that have flooded the press? How will making these changes suddenly create more?

And we've seen what can happen in such circumstances.

 

Scare stories? Women voicing their concerns, that kind of "scare stories" are the ones that should be listened to.

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 minutes ago, the posh bit said:

 

I think future generations will pish their pants at folk back in 2023 thinking that men would apply to change their sex just so they could abuse vulnerable women in their safe public spaces 😁

It's bizarre when you put it like that. Baddies will be baddies. I get that but I'm not seeing this bill as a vehicle to enable abusers. 

A grown up society should be able to navigate its way through an admittedly complex issue without slinging abuse at vulnerable minorities or sincere attempts to support them. 

[Dawnrazor]

1 hour ago, TheJacobite said:

Been said a million times before but

a man in a dress is still a man 

a man who thinks he should be a woman has mental issues and should be helped on that basis 

a man who goes through “gender reassignment” surgery is a sterilised man and can never be one a woman 

These are the facts

I’m all for live and let live and abhor discrimination and bigotry but stating the above facts is not discriminatory or bigoted

Trans people should have the same rights as everyone else and should be treated with respect the same as everyone else but that doesn’t mean pretending to believe the impossible 

I wish I was 30 years old but it ain’t gonna happen however I dress or do my hair

Get real people 

Pretty much sums it up for me.

 

[Dawnrazor]

30 minutes ago, the posh bit said:

 

How many men are murdered each week? 

How many men are murdered by women each week?

How many women are murdered by men each week?

 

[Bobilius]

Learning a bit more about this issue from watching a rerun of the Westminster debate from earlier. Didn’t realise that both the UN and WHO both recommend countries should be moving to a system of Self ID for gender recognition. Also clear from listening to MP’s speaking that it’s almost unanimously felt that the 2004 GR Act is badly outdated and needs modernised. 
 

Taking the above as read, it really clarifies the point that if the bill had not went to such an extreme (16yo, 3 months) then it would have been welcomed with open arms. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

40 minutes ago, the posh bit said:

 

How many men are murdered each week? 

A hell of a lot . That’s why women don’t want men in their safe spaces ! They are violent . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Wait until they see the nick of your posts. There'll be a flood.

😂😂😂👍😎

[JudyJudyJudy]

11 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

How many men are murdered by women each week?

How many women are murdered by men each week?

 

Men are a risk to other men . Men are a risk to women . It’s factual and not man bashing ! 

[Bobilius]

Just now, jonesy said:

Genuine Q: Why did the SNP seek the 16 months/3 months aspect? What was their rationale?

Been thinking the same. I don’t know enough about the process that led to the final bill. A cynic may say they chose the extreme to trigger the current situation.

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

Genuine Q: Why did the SNP seek the 16 months/3 months aspect? What was their rationale?

An obvious trap and a win win for the Sturgeon.

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Genuine Q: Why did the SNP seek the 16 months/3 months aspect? What was their rationale?

Ask Derek Mackay ? 

[the posh bit]

16 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

How many men are murdered by women each week?

How many women are murdered by men each week?

 

 

If more men are murdered than women then men are more vulnerable than women, regardless of who is doing the murdering. 

[the posh bit]

10 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Wait until they see the nick of your posts. There'll be a flood.

 

I'll be remembered as a sane voice surrounded by a sea of twats. 😎

[Dawnrazor]

3 minutes ago, the posh bit said:

 

If more men are murdered than women then men are more vulnerable than women, regardless of who is doing the murdering. 

Nonsense!!!

[the posh bit]

2 minutes ago, jonesy said:

 

Christ, when I was 17 I was convinced I was James Dean

 

@JudyJudyJudy meme please. 👌

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, jonesy said:

"You're cute."

He has / had his finger on the pulse of what 16 years old get up to It seems .  

[the posh bit]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

Nonsense!!!

 

It's not nonsense at all. 

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, the posh bit said:

 

It's not nonsense at all. 

It is and you know it🤣🤣

[Bobilius]

Would be interesting to see what happens if the bill goes back to Holyrood and sensible changes are made (18yo, 12 months). I assume Westminster wouldn’t stand in the way and the bill will go forward and Scotland will have a sensible GR process in line with the UN and WHO recommendations. Where does that then leave those who are so derogatory towards trans people?

[The Mighty Thor]

1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

He has / had his finger on the pulse of what 16 years old get up to It seems .  

Was that with or without waiting for 3 months? 

[Bobilius]

5 minutes ago, jonesy said:

In a way I can understand the idea that 16 year old is old enough to do many adult things, so why not extend many other things to it. However, I'd suggest that teens suffering from gender dysphoria would be at the extreme end of the vulnerability scale and have safeguards in place to protect them from life-changing decisions they may well come to regret.

 

Christ, when I was 17 I was convinced I was James Dean and, thanks to a shitty family situation, fantasised about smashing my car into a wall.

 

A mixed up kid who may well be experimenting with their sexuality and still growing into themselves (oo-er!) is being given the green light to make a right mess of their life. And they are being encouraged to do so by people who claim the right to rule the country. I wonder how many of the architects of this nonsense actually have kids themselves.

Totally agree

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, the posh bit said:

 

If more men are murdered than women then men are more vulnerable than women, regardless of who is doing the murdering. 

Actually I’d agree with that to an extent . Men are more violent to each other which may lead to Murder , whereas women are more vulnerable to male violence due to their lack of physical strength .

[the posh bit]

2 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

He has / had his finger on the pulse of what 16 years old get up to It seems .  

 

Good posting James. This disgusting man is nearly three times the age of a 16 year old too. 🙁

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, jonesy said:

country. I wonder how many of the architects of this nonsense actually have kids themselves.

Not many 

[Bobilius]

2 minutes ago, the posh bit said:

 

It's not nonsense at all. 

It is. You’re running up a culdy sac.

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Was that with or without waiting for 3 months? 

😄

[the posh bit]

2 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Actually I’d agree with that to an extent . Men are more violent to each other which may lead to Murder , whereas women are more vulnerable to male violence due to their lack of physical strength .

 

Correct. Women are vulnerable however men are more vulnerable and this is supported by facts and stats. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

10 minutes ago, jonesy said:

In a way I can understand the idea that 16 year old is old enough to do many adult things, so why not extend many other things to it. However, I'd suggest that teens suffering from gender dysphoria would be at the extreme end of the vulnerability scale and have safeguards in place to protect them from life-changing decisions they may well come to regret.

 

Christ, when I was 17 I was convinced I was James Dean and, thanks to a shitty family situation, fantasised about smashing my car into a wall.

 

A mixed up kid who may well be experimenting with their sexuality and still growing into themselves (oo-er!) is being given the green light to make a right mess of their life. And they are being encouraged to do so by people who claim the right to rule the country. I wonder how many of the architects of this nonsense actually have kids themselves.

Good posting 

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, the posh bit said:

 

Good posting James. This disgusting man is nearly three times the age of a 16 year old too. 🙁

You certainly have an issue regarding age in relationships it seems . Not that he had any form of “ relationship “ with the lad . However playing devils advocate the lad was “ legal” . However the issue was about “ Abuse of trust “ and “ grooming “ really . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

I don't think it was his pulse he wanted to get his fingers on, the filthy *******.

 

 

Exactly 

[JudyJudyJudy]

7 minutes ago, the posh bit said:

 

Good posting James. This disgusting man is nearly three times the age of a 16 year old too. 🙁

Relationships should be age appropriate really for them to work out or at least have a chance . Big age differences create many problems plus issues of abuse , power and equality .