JudyJudyJudy Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 18 minutes ago, jonesy said: In a way I can understand the idea that 16 year old is old enough to do many adult things, so why not extend many other things to it. However, I'd suggest that teens suffering from gender dysphoria would be at the extreme end of the vulnerability scale and have safeguards in place to protect them from life-changing decisions they may well come to regret. Christ, when I was 17 I was convinced I was James Dean and, thanks to a shitty family situation, fantasised about smashing my car into a wall. A mixed up kid who may well be experimenting with their sexuality and still growing into themselves (oo-er!) is being given the green light to make a right mess of their life. And they are being encouraged to do so by people who claim the right to rule the country. I wonder how many of the architects of this nonsense actually have kids themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 13 minutes ago, Bobilius said: Would be interesting to see what happens if the bill goes back to Holyrood and sensible changes are made (18yo, 12 months). I assume Westminster wouldn’t stand in the way and the bill will go forward and Scotland will have a sensible GR process in line with the UN and WHO recommendations. Where does that then leave those who are so derogatory towards trans people? Alex …..,,, there is still the elephant in the room . Well In the changing rooms , gym changing rooms , womens safe spaces . That won’t change . Womens feelings of feeling unsafe won’t change . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the posh bit Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said: I never knew Josie smoked. 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobilius Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 Another issue being raised in the Westminster debate…at what point does the single sex rights/safe spaces issue stop being relevant? At the moment the process is 2 years/medical process/18 yo. Are women currently at risk and having their rights impinged? Say it changes to 18 months/medical process/18yo. Are women at risk and having their rights impinged? Say it changes to 2 years/self id/18yo. Are women at risk and having their rights impinged? Where is the line? Labour MP Hilary Benn pretty much asked the above question to Alistair Jack earlier and he couldn’t answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobilius Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 3 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said: Alex …..,,, there is still the elephant in the room . Well In the changing rooms , gym changing rooms , womens safe spaces . That won’t change . Womens feelings of feeling unsafe won’t change . So the 2004 Act should be repealed and trans people should not be allowed to seek a GRC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 1 minute ago, Bobilius said: Another issue being raised in the Westminster debate…at what point does the single sex rights/safe spaces issue stop being relevant? At the moment the process is 2 years/medical process/18 yo. Are women currently at risk and having their rights impinged? Say it changes to 18 months/medical process/18yo. Are women at risk and having their rights impinged? Say it changes to 2 years/self id/18yo. Are women at risk and having their rights impinged? Where is the line? Labour MP Hilary Benn pretty much asked the above question to Alistair Jack earlier and he couldn’t answer. If a self iD person still has a dick they are perceived as a risk to women . It’s that simple . It’s a weapon of abuse and power and Control . That’s most of my female friends view . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i wish jj was my dad Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 29 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said: Ask Derek Mackay ? I'm lost. What has a gay predator got to do with GR? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobilius Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 Just now, JudyJudyJudy said: If a self iD person still has a dick they are perceived as a risk to women . It’s that simple . It’s a weapon of abuse and power and Control . That’s most of my female friends view . So the 2004 GR Act puts women at risk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 1 minute ago, Bobilius said: So the 2004 Act should be repealed and trans people should not be allowed to seek a GRC? No they should not be allowed in womens only spaces as they aren’t women . Now Alex we have had these arguments before . Come on . Stop repeating yourself . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobilius Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 Just now, JudyJudyJudy said: No they should not be allowed in womens only spaces as they aren’t women . Now Alex we have had these arguments before . Come on . Stop repeating yourself . Are they allowed in women’s safe spaces under the 2004 Act? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 Just now, Bobilius said: Are they allowed in women’s safe spaces under the 2004 Act? Alex !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobilius Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 As I learn, watch and read more about this issue it’s becoming clearer that for some their issue isn’t this new bill, it’s trans rights more generally. It appears that it wouldn’t have mattered if the bill kept the age at 18 or at something sensible like a period of 12 months, they would have still found issue with it. A few right wing Tory MPs have pretty much stood up and admitted as much in this debate I’m watching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffros Furios Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said: Alex !! Maybe Alex would let us know if he still agrees with Mermaids advising the Scot Gov on this legislation. I do believe Alex works in Education which is rather worrying . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CF11JamTart Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 BBC News - Scotland Gender Recognition Bill: What are the sticking points? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64304740 Paragraph 2. The conflation of sex and gender. Changing the "sex = male or female" on the birth certificate. And people born in Scotland are "in scope". So, someone born in Scotland but living in Cornwall for 30 years could apply to have the definition of their biological sex altered on a piece of their core "life documentation". And then presumably roll on through passports etc. Gender... How you conform to outdated social stereotypes. Sex... Your biological coding. Some stuff should be sex-specific. And this legislation permits the documentation of "sex = m/f" to be change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobilius Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 1 minute ago, CF11JamTart said: BBC News - Scotland Gender Recognition Bill: What are the sticking points? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64304740 Paragraph 2. The conflation of sex and gender. Changing the "sex = male or female" on the birth certificate. And people born in Scotland are "in scope". So, someone born in Scotland but living in Cornwall for 30 years could apply to have the definition of their biological sex altered on a piece of their core "life documentation". And then presumably roll on through passports etc. Gender... How you conform to outdated social stereotypes. Sex... Your biological coding. Some stuff should be sex-specific. And this legislation permits the documentation of "sex = m/f" to be change. Are these issues new to the proposed bill or did they exist in the 2004 Act? It feels like this new bill is being used to drag up people’s issues with 2004 Act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 7 minutes ago, Jeffros Furios said: Maybe Alex would let us know if he still agrees with Mermaids advising the Scot Gov on this legislation. I do believe Alex works in Education which is rather worrying . Yes I wonder what is view is about that ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffros Furios Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 3 minutes ago, jonesy said: I'd be more interested in why he needs a new user account every few months. He's worse than the radge Vinny gadjie . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobilius Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, jonesy said: I'd be more interested in why he needs a new user account every few months. I’m more interested in why certain posters are trying to divert the thread in another direction as soon as genuine discussion points are raised about the motivations of those who are anti-trans. 🤷🏽♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sub4TiddlerMurray Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 51 minutes ago, Bobilius said: Learning a bit more about this issue from watching a rerun of the Westminster debate from earlier. Didn’t realise that both the UN and WHO both recommend countries should be moving to a system of Self ID for gender recognition. Also clear from listening to MP’s speaking that it’s almost unanimously felt that the 2004 GR Act is badly outdated and needs modernised. Taking the above as read, it really clarifies the point that if the bill had not went to such an extreme (16yo, 3 months) then it would have been welcomed with open arms. Good to know and shows that it is Westminster that is out of step. I don’t see the problem with 16 or 3 months. Why is 18 and 2yrs any different. A lot of people leave home, go abroad, work, pay taxes and serve in the armed forces at 16. Why is it an extreme for someone to get a certificate? It’s not surgery and it can easily be reversed. Why the moral panic all of a sudden? It’s not extreme at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 21 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said: I'm lost. What has a gay predator got to do with GR? He had his finger on the pulse a few years back regarding youth issues it seems . Even did out of hours work too . Maybe he was doing research regarding youths and their views etc about self ID etc . Very committed it seems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 3 minutes ago, Jeffros Furios said: He's worse than the radge Vinny gadjie . Oh I know . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CF11JamTart Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 5 minutes ago, Bobilius said: Are these issues new to the proposed bill or did they exist in the 2004 Act? It feels like this new bill is being used to drag up people’s issues with 2004 Act. Sound like you are more familiar with the 2004 Act than many. Short answer, I don't know. But if it was, it makes it easier. Dealing with (arguably) flawed, confused legislation by massively streamlining it doesn't quite feel right. Anyway, I'm looking forward to legislation coming in to effect. I can change my sex and join a women's football team in Wales. And go to nicer public bogs. And probably retire earlier. And if I get a prison sentence, do the time in a women's prison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 7 minutes ago, jonesy said: I'd be more interested in why he needs a new user account every few months. I wonder why ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 3 minutes ago, jonesy said: Quite possibly one and the same poster. Nah two very different “ writing styles “ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobilius Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said: Good to know and shows that it is Westminster that is out of step. I don’t see the problem with 16 or 3 months. Why is 18 and 2yrs any different. A lot of people leave home, go abroad, work, pay taxes and serve in the armed forces at 16. Why is it an extreme for someone to get a certificate? It’s not surgery and it can easily be reversed. Why the moral panic all of a sudden? It’s not extreme at all For me 16yo is just too young. The difference in maturity and life experience at 16 and 18 is huge. But you’re right in terms of the moral panic. Right wing transphobes jumping on this new bill would have jumped whatever it said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sub4TiddlerMurray Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 15 minutes ago, CF11JamTart said: BBC News - Scotland Gender Recognition Bill: What are the sticking points? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64304740 Paragraph 2. The conflation of sex and gender. Changing the "sex = male or female" on the birth certificate. And people born in Scotland are "in scope". So, someone born in Scotland but living in Cornwall for 30 years could apply to have the definition of their biological sex altered on a piece of their core "life documentation". And then presumably roll on through passports etc. Passports are controlled and issued by the UK government Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 6 minutes ago, Bobilius said: I’m more interested in why certain posters are trying to divert the thread in another direction as soon as genuine discussion points are raised about the motivations of those who are anti-trans. 🤷🏽♂️ You’re starting again Alex . Dearie me . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobilius Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 3 minutes ago, CF11JamTart said: Sound like you are more familiar with the 2004 Act than many. Short answer, I don't know. But if it was, it makes it easier. Dealing with (arguably) flawed, confused legislation by massively streamlining it doesn't quite feel right. Anyway, I'm looking forward to legislation coming in to effect. I can change my sex and join a women's football team in Wales. And go to nicer public bogs. And probably retire earlier. And if I get a prison sentence, do the time in a women's prison. I’m not familiar with it all really. Picking up the key points from the two Westminster debates today. Seems to be some real conflation (is that a word?) between GRCs more generally and the streamlining of the process to get one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 1 minute ago, jonesy said: If not believing that changing gender/sex is possible (and I would also argue that there is no difference between the two terms) then I'm quite happily anti-trans. If you have reached the point at which you refuse to accept reality and decide that cutting your hair, feminising a masculine name or vice versa and playing dress up is tantamount to 'living' as something you're not, then you need support and help, not having people indulge you. And if we can accept gender as a 'fluid' concept, then why not race, age and species? Great posting . He’s in a bizarre echo chamber it seems . Maybe too much we Scottish education and training courses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobilius Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 1 minute ago, jonesy said: If not believing that changing gender/sex is possible (and I would also argue that there is no difference between the two terms) then I'm quite happily anti-trans. If you have reached the point at which you refuse to accept reality and decide that cutting your hair, feminising a masculine name or vice versa and playing dress up is tantamount to 'living' as something you're not, then you need support and help, not having people indulge you. And if we can accept gender as a 'fluid' concept, then why not race, age and species? You only really become anti-trans if you feel they should not have the right to go through the process and get a GRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobilius Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 Just now, JudyJudyJudy said: Great posting . He’s in a bizarre echo chamber it seems . Maybe too much we Scottish education and training courses Your avoidance of the issues raised on the previous page is blatant and damning. 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CF11JamTart Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 3 minutes ago, Sub4TiddlerMurray said: Passports are controlled and issued by the UK government But presumably one of the key documents for getting a passport is a birth certificate? That's a specific which I probably shouldn't have used. I'm not au fait with the passport application process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, Bobilius said: You only really become anti-trans if you feel they should not have the right to go through the process and get a GRC. Maybe you'll be able to answer it in more depth. What is the process? Could you define what living as a woman, or a man entails? For example, what would I need to do differently tomorrow to start the process? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i wish jj was my dad Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 8 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said: He had his finger on the pulse a few years back regarding youth issues it seems . Even did out of hours work too . Maybe he was doing research regarding youths and their views etc about self ID etc . Very committed it seems. I'm still none the wiser. I get that Mackay resigned for getting caught grooming a young laddie. What is the connection with GR? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobilius Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 1 minute ago, jonesy said: It has certainly shone a light on something many people, myself included, didn't know much about. But what's the internet for if not arguing with strangers about stuff I don't have a full grasp of? Absolutely. I’ve learned more about it all in the past 24 hours than I had in the past 24 months. I hadn’t realised before that people were disguising their anger about trans people in general behind their anger about the new bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobilius Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 Just now, Taffin said: Maybe you'll be able to answer it in more depth. What is the process? Could you define what living as a woman, or a man entails? For example, what would I need to do differently tomorrow to start the process? The current Act has been around for 19 years. Plenty people have GRCs during that time. If only the internet had a search option where one could look up the 19 year old process? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sub4TiddlerMurray Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 3 minutes ago, jonesy said: If not believing that changing gender/sex is possible (and I would also argue that there is no difference between the two terms) then I'm quite happily anti-trans. If you have reached the point at which you refuse to accept reality and decide that cutting your hair, feminising a masculine name or vice versa and playing dress up is tantamount to 'living' as something you're not, then you need support and help, not having people indulge you. And if we can accept gender as a 'fluid' concept, then why not race, age and species? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, Bobilius said: Absolutely. I’ve learned more about it all in the past 24 hours than Pull the other one ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobilius Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 Just now, jonesy said: Only if those seeking to change other immutable and self-evident parts of their identity have the same right. I want to be recognised as a black cat and will use boot polish and a modified hairband as a way of realising this. And if you don't accept this then you are both anti-BAME and anti-feline, you bigots. Joking aside, you don’t have to have the same views on gender to respect trans rights. I’m not religious but I respect the right of others to worship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 6 minutes ago, jonesy said: But what's the internet for if not arguing with strangers about stuff I don't have a full grasp of? Well there's Holyrood and Westminster too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, Bobilius said: The current Act has been around for 19 years. Plenty people have GRCs during that time. If only the internet had a search option where one could look up the 19 year old process? I'll take that as a no then 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, jonesy said: Only if those seeking to change other immutable and self-evident parts of their identity have the same right. I want to be recognised as a black cat and will use boot polish and a modified hairband as a way of realising this. And if you don't accept this then you are both anti-BAME and anti-feline, you bigots. Yep. . Sex is immutable . He knows that . He’s just using word salad . Meanwhile in the real women feel frightened and alarmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobilius Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said: Pull the other one ! I have. I’ve learned that anti-trans people would have opposed the new bill regardless of what extent it simplified the process. Those people are anti-trans, anti-GRC and are using the safe spaces/women’s rights argument to hide their hatred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 3 minutes ago, jonesy said: Only if those seeking to change other immutable and self-evident parts of their identity have the same right. Could I identify as an eleven year old and legally change my age by living as an eleven year old for three months? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 1 minute ago, Taffin said: I'll take that as a no then 👍 Aye he’s like his buddy from last month who couldn’t answer similar questions . Their whole argument falls apart if they were truthful . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sub4TiddlerMurray Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 3 minutes ago, Taffin said: Maybe you'll be able to answer it in more depth. What is the process? Could you define what living as a woman, or a man entails? For example, what would I need to do differently tomorrow to start the process? Bit of déjà vu here Taffin ….are these your fav go-to questions on this subject that you try on different posters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 1 minute ago, Bobilius said: I have. I’ve learned that anti-trans people would have opposed the new bill regardless of what extent it simplified the process. Those people are anti-trans, anti-GRC and are using the safe spaces/women’s rights argument to hide their hatred. You have learned a lot in the last 24 hours alex . Steep learning curve . Good for the brain to keep learning , unless it’s mince . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnrazor Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 Just now, Bobilius said: I have. I’ve learned that anti-trans people would have opposed the new bill regardless of what extent it simplified the process. Those people are anti-trans, anti-GRC and are using the safe spaces/women’s rights argument to hide their hatred. 🤣🤣 come on!!! People who agree with women who've raised concerns about allowing men into women's spaces hate trans people??? Away and don't talk pish!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobilius Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, Taffin said: I'll take that as a no then 👍 Yep, it’s a no. I can’t explain to you the detail of the process involved in getting a GRC currently. I know it involves a 2 year period of living in your chosen gender, a medical certification and being 18yo or older. Beyond that, google is your friend. 👍🏽 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 Just now, Sub4TiddlerMurray said: Bit of déjà vu here Taffin ….are these your fav go-to questions on this subject that you try on different posters? No they are fundamental questions which are never answered . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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