****The All In One LGBTQ+ & Related Issues Mega Thread****

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, Bobilius said:

And another 😘

 

[il Duce McTarkin]

19 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

"Those people are anti-trans, anti-GRC and are using the safe spaces/women’s rights argument to hide their hatred."

 

Sound like my kind of people, tbf.

[Bobilius]

3 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

🤣 yep, you said people who hide behind womens safe spaces / womens rights are anti trans, that's bollocks, that's what I pointed out because that's what you said, it's there for everyone to see!!

 No wonder you feel the need to change your name every few weeks, it's embarrassment isn't it 👍

You clearly have comprehension issues. In the absence of a crayon font, I’ll explain it simply. 

i did say:

The people who would be opposed to ANY type of proposed bill are anti-trans and hiding behind the women’s rights argument.

 

I didn’t say:

People who hide behind women’s rights arguments are anti-trans.

 

Life is full of nuance. Give it a try some time.

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, Dirk McTarkin said:

 

Sound like my kind of people, tbf.

Sign of the time, if someone doesn't agree with you just call them anti / racist / bigot or similar.

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, Bobilius said:

You clearly have comprehension issues. In the absence of a crayon font, I’ll explain it simply. 

i did say:

The people who would be opposed to ANY type of proposed bill are anti-trans and hiding behind the women’s rights argument.

 

I didn’t say:

People who hide behind women’s rights arguments are anti-trans.

 

Life is full of nuance. Give it a try some time.

Your in a hole, stop digging, everyone can see clearly what you said.

You use "Nuance" because you got cought going back on what you said and looking a bit daft, you know that isn't what it means?

Edited January 17, 2023 by Dawnrazor

[Bobilius]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

Your in a hole, stop digging, everyone can see clearly what you said.

I’m sure everyone can. Except you clearly

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, Dirk McTarkin said:

 

Sound like my kind of people, tbf.

 

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, Bobilius said:

I’m sure everyone can. Except you clearly

I've pointed out your bollocks so clearly I can see .

[il Duce McTarkin]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

Sign of the time, if someone doesn't agree with you just call them anti / racist / bigot or similar.

 

The sooner that we accept that we are all in some way racially prejudiced, biggoted, or some other flovour of o-phobe,  the sooner we can get on with facing up to our individual prejudices, challenging them, and realising how utterly irrational most of them are.

[Bobilius]

Another couple of interesting questions raised in the Westminster debate:

 

If any change to the GRC process in Scotland would bring it into conflict with UK law, why have gender recognition as a devolved matter?

 

If the UK govt has no plans to modernise the GRC process (which even it’s own assessment concluded should happen) then how can Scotland and Wales improve the rights of trans people?

[il Duce McTarkin]

5 minutes ago, Bobilius said:

 

Life is full of nonces. Give it a try some time.

 

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Dirk McTarkin said:

 

The sooner that we accept that we are all in some way racially prejudiced, biggoted, or some other flovour of o-phobe,  the sooner we can get on with facing up to our individual prejudices, challenging them, and realising how utterly irrational most of them are.

Aye, but it's a bit like Animal Farm, some peoples bigotry is more acceptable than others.

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, Dirk McTarkin said:

 

The sooner that we accept that we are all in some way racially prejudiced, biggoted, or some other flovour of o-phobe,  the sooner we can get on with facing up to our individual prejudices, challenging them, and realising how utterly irrational most of them are.

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

Aye, but it's a bit like Animal Farm, some peoples bigotry is more acceptable than others.

Now ain’t that end truth . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, Dirk McTarkin said:

 

😂😂😂

[il Duce McTarkin]

3 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Aye, but it's a bit like Animal Farm, some peoples bigotry is more acceptable than others.

 

Alas, it has always been thus, Dawn.

 

There are none so blind as those that will not see.

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Dirk McTarkin said:

 

Alas, it has always been thus, Dawn.

 

There are none so blind as those that will not see.

Yep, sadly. 

[periodictabledancer]

12 minutes ago, Bobilius said:

Another couple of interesting questions raised in the Westminster debate:

 

If any change to the GRC process in Scotland would bring it into conflict with UK law, why have gender recognition as a devolved matter?

 

If the UK govt has no plans to modernise the GRC process (which even it’s own assessment concluded should happen) then how can Scotland and Wales improve the rights of trans people?

👏

[periodictabledancer]

[i wish jj was my dad]

6 hours ago, Dawnrazor said:

Aye, but it's a bit like Animal Farm, some peoples bigotry is more acceptable than others.

That's captured the point I've been trying to make since I joined this debate. 

Whether the bill is flawed or not the shit being chucked at the trans community and anybody who has any sympathy for trans rights has been off the scale or it certainly has on here and the abuse being chucked at them would not be acceptable if it was  being directed at any other section of society, particularly any other vulnerable minority. 

Every era seems to have a cause that justifies abusing a vulnerable group. Immigrants and trans are today's targets. 

[Bobilius]

1 hour ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

That's captured the point I've been trying to make since I joined this debate. 

Whether the bill is flawed or not the shit being chucked at the trans community and anybody who has any sympathy for trans rights has been off the scale or it certainly has on here and the abuse being chucked at them would not be acceptable if it was  being directed at any other section of society, particularly any other vulnerable minority. 

Every era seems to have a cause that justifies abusing a vulnerable group. Immigrants and trans are today's targets. 

For me it’s becoming clearer that concerns about this new bill are being used as the perfect cover for some anti-trans agendas. For some those agendas are borne of being very right wing, for others it’s because they feel threatened by trans people.

 

When you simplify it all right down, the new bill updates and simplifies the process that people go through to get a GRC. Similar changes have happened in Ireland, Denmark and other countries and have been suggested for the Uk as a whole:

1. Removing the medicalised part is in line with UN, WHO and even UK government’s own recommendations. 
2. Reducing the time that needs to be spent living in chosen gender from 2 years to three months.For me this is too extreme a drop and understandably creates concerns for women.

3. Reducing the age from 18 to 16. For me this brings unnecessary risks and it should have been left at 18.

 

When you clarify this it allows you to separate out the comments/concerns about this bill and the wider comments/concerns about trans people, their rights and the way they choose to live their lives. I don’t agree with the changes in the new bill and feel they are too extreme. It’s clear though that some people would have been opposed to the new bill regardless of how far it went. 
 

They aren’t anti this bill, they’re  anti-trans and that’s a whole other issue that needs to be clarified and separated from the debate about the flaws in this bill.

 

We’ll hopefully get to a point in a few years where the bill is amended to a more sensible version (12 months, 18yo) and hopefully even extended UK wide. At that point not only will pretty much all elected MPs and MSPs be in favour, the majority support of the public will return too. What will be left screaming in the dark will be the right wing MPs and the anti-trans alliances. By that time their true motivations and bias will be clearly in the spotlight.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Bobilius

[The Mighty Thor]

9 hours ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I'm lost. What has a gay predator got to do with GR? 

 

A fabulous question, which surprisingly didn't get answered. 

 

What happened there was the poster thought they were delivering a zinger about how shit and untrustworthy the SNP and in particular Derek Mackay are. 

 

Instead and inadvertently they've opened up a great point.

 

There appears to be a huge stooshie about the GR bill and the 'potential' for sexual predators to enter women's safe spaces after gaining a GR certificate after the arbitrary 3 month period of living in their chosen gender. 

 

I had a look online, and I'm more than happy to be corrected, but I couldn't find a single case of a GR certified sexual predator carrying out a sexual attack in a women's safe space in Scotland. I couldn't even find any sexual attacks at all

 

What I did find was a decent number of instances of convicted gay sexual predators (uncertified) committing sexual offences against and the grooming of men and young men (under 16) in a variety of locations and online in Scotland.   

 

Should I be worried about vulnerable men and young people like my sons?

 

[Bobilius]

5 hours ago, periodictabledancer said:

These are the kind of clear messages that should be shared widely to counter the scare mongering being used by anti-trans groups/individuals.

 

Get the bill sorted, get better safeguards in there for women and 16/17yo and leave them and their bias out in the light for everyone to see.

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

A fabulous question, which surprisingly didn't get answered. 

 

What happened there was the poster thought they were delivering a zinger about how shit and untrustworthy the SNP and in particular Derek Mackay are. 

 

Instead and inadvertently they've opened up a great point.

 

There appears to be a huge stooshie about the GR bill and the 'potential' for sexual predators to enter women's safe spaces after gaining a GR certificate after the arbitrary 3 month period of living in their chosen gender. 

 

I had a look online, and I'm more than happy to be corrected, but I couldn't find a single case of a GR certified sexual predator carrying out a sexual attack in a women's safe space in Scotland. I couldn't even find any sexual attacks at all

 

What I did find was a decent number of instances of convicted gay sexual predators (uncertified) committing sexual offences against and the grooming of men and young men (under 16) in a variety of locations and online in Scotland.   

 

Should I be worried about vulnerable men and young people like my sons?

 

If you want to go down that road Mighty then you’ll find numerous instances of self ID men :’/ trans committing horrendous crimes against women . You can’t have looked online too much . And wow gay “ predators “ ? They can also be trans too . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, Bobilius said:

These are the kind of clear messages that should be shared widely to counter the scare mongering being used by anti-trans groups/individuals.

 

Get the bill sorted, get better safeguards in there for women and 16/17yo and leave them and their bias out in the light for everyone to see.

Hurry up Alex you’ve got school soon ! 😂

[i wish jj was my dad]

3 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

If you want to go down that road Mighty then you’ll find numerous instances of self ID men :’/ trans committing horrendous crimes against women . You can’t have looked online too much . And wow gay “ predators “ ? They can also be trans too . 

Can you answer my original question though?  I still don't understand what point you were trying to make. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

16 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

A fabulous question, which surprisingly didn't get answered. 

 

What happened there was the poster thought they were delivering a zinger about how shit and untrustworthy the SNP and in particular Derek Mackay are. 

 

Instead and inadvertently they've opened up a great point.

 

There appears to be a huge stooshie about the GR bill and the 'potential' for sexual predators to enter women's safe spaces after gaining a GR certificate after the arbitrary 3 month period of living in their chosen gender. 

 

I had a look online, and I'm more than happy to be corrected, but I couldn't find a single case of a GR certified sexual predator carrying out a sexual attack in a women's safe space in Scotland. I couldn't even find any sexual attacks at all

 

What I did find was a decent number of instances of convicted gay sexual predators (uncertified) committing sexual offences against and the grooming of men and young men (under 16) in a variety of locations and online in Scotland.   

 

Should I be worried about vulnerable men and young people like my sons?

 

The answer to your last question is you educate your sons about potential risks of abuse from men . It can come from

anywhere, teachers , youth workers , priests , vicars , other faith leaders ,dads , uncles, etc . Anyone . No child is safe really . Btw I would hope you’re not at all defending Mr Mackay . I know you think the sun shines out sturgeons arse but you must have some limits ! 

Edited January 18, 2023 by JudyJudyJudy

[JudyJudyJudy]

16 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

A fabulous question, which surprisingly didn't get answered. 

 

What happened there was the poster thought they were delivering a zinger about how shit and untrustworthy the SNP and in particular Derek Mackay are. 

 

Instead and inadvertently they've opened up a great point.

 

There appears to be a huge stooshie about the GR bill and the 'potential' for sexual predators to enter women's safe spaces after gaining a GR certificate after the arbitrary 3 month period of living in their chosen gender. 

 

I had a look online, and I'm more than happy to be corrected, but I couldn't find a single case of a GR certified sexual predator carrying out a sexual attack in a women's safe space in Scotland. I couldn't even find any sexual attacks at all

 

What I did find was a decent number of instances of convicted gay sexual predators (uncertified) committing sexual offences against and the grooming of men and young men (under 16) in a variety of locations and online in Scotland.   

 

Should I be worried about vulnerable men and young people like my sons?

 

There you go . 
 

 

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/trans-woman-battered-male-inmate-28511707.amp

 

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 hours ago, periodictabledancer said:

And on the flip side 

 

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Amen 

 

 

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

6 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Hurry up Alex you’ve got school soon ! 😂

I don't know the guy or if he does have school to go to but he seems to have hit the nail firmly on the head this morning. 

Whatever your history with him, he has outlined a perfectly credible and balanced argument. Chucking insults at him rather than engaging in grown up debate isn't countering any of his points. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, i wish jj was my dad said:

I don't know the guy or if he does have school to go to but he seems to have hit the nail firmly on the head this morning. 

Whatever your history with him, he has outlined a perfectly credible and balanced argument. Chucking insults at him rather than engaging in grown up debate isn't countering any of his points. 

You don’t know the “ History “ others do 

[i wish jj was my dad]

6 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

The answer to your last question is you educate your sons about potential risks of abuse from men . It can come from

anywhere, teachers , youth workers , priests , vicars , other faith leaders ,dads , uncles, etc . Anyone . No child is safe really . Btw I would hope you’re not at all defending Mr Mackay . I know you think the sun shines out sturgeons arse but you must have some limits ! 

Nobody can defend Mackay and I don't think anyone has but what is the relevance to this debate? 

[i wish jj was my dad]

Just now, JudyJudyJudy said:

You don’t know the “ History “ others do 

Granted but based on what I am seeing here what I am seeing is you squealing for being called out. Much like you have been doing with me. 

If you set out a rational argument rather than throwing your toys out the pram with everything you didn't agree with, it might be easier to understand your point of view.  

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Nobody can defend Mackay and I don't think anyone has but what is the relevance to this debate? 

I have already told you . He was in contact with a 16 years old so as part of his “ Contact “ he might have had more of an “ insight “ into how young people view the trans / self I’d issue as it appears to be heavily involved within younger persons culture . 

[The Mighty Thor]

11 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

If you want to go down that road Mighty then you’ll find numerous instances of self ID men :’/ trans committing horrendous crimes against women . You can’t have looked online too much . And wow gay “ predators “ ? They can also be trans too . 

 

I've no great desire to go down any road. You brought Derek Mackay and gay predators into the conversation.

 

There may well be trans predators too but as I said I couldn't find a single one with a GR certificate when I looked. 

 

4 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

The answer to your last question is you educate your sons about potential risks of abuse from men . It can come from

anywhere, teachers , youth workers , priests , vicars , other faith leaders ,dads , uncles, etc . Anyone . No child is safe really . Btw I would hope you’re not at all defending Mr Mackay . I know you think the sun shines out sturgeons arse but you must have some limits ! 

 

I've tried to educate my sons on the potential risks from all sorts of things and people. I'm just wondering, given the clamour to protect women's rights and safe spaces from sexual predators if the same is being done to shield young vulnerable men too?

 

If you can point out where I defended Mr Mackay, that would be magnificent. 

 

3 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

There you go . 
 

 

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/trans-woman-battered-male-inmate-28511707.amp

 

 

 

 

You've posted that one a fair few times now. I've read it many times. What I read was that a self identifying female (not certified with a GR certificate as far as I could see) got into a fist fight with a male prisoner in a male Young Offenders institute?

 

I'm not sure of the relevance of this in the context of the current GR bill proposals or indeed the sexual nature of the offence or indeed the women's safe space it happened in?

 

Maybe I'm missing it?

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Granted but based on what I am seeing here what I am seeing is you squealing for being called out. Much like you have been doing with me. 

If you set out a rational argument rather than throwing your toys out the pram with everything you didn't agree with, it might be easier to understand your point of view.  

You don’t know him mate , others do . Hence they called him out too. Ironically for a subject Which involves “identity “

He has went to extraordinary lengths to conceal his on this . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

I've no great desire to go down any road. You brought Derek Mackay and gay predators into the conversation.

 

There may well be trans predators too but as I said I couldn't find a single one with a GR certificate when I looked. 

 

 

I've tried to educate my sons on the potential risks from all sorts of things and people. I'm just wondering, given the clamour to protect women's rights and safe spaces from sexual predators if the same is being done to shield young vulnerable men too?

 

If you can point out where I defended Mr Mackay, that would be magnificent. 

 

 

You've posted that one a fair few times now. I've read it many times. What I read was that a self identifying female (not certified with a GR certificate as far as I could see) got into a fist fight with a male prisoner in a male Young Offenders institute?

 

I'm not sure of the relevance of this in the context of the current GR bill proposals or indeed the sexual nature of the offence or indeed the women's safe space it happened in?

 

Maybe I'm missing it?

He was allowed to

enter public toilets without a grc due to self Id really . Anyway I’m glad you’re keeping your sons safe . There are lots of initiatives about helping boys remain safe and wary of online and offline predators . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

I was the same until I read all the way through. This person was convicted for assaulting a 10 year old and a 12 year old girl. He sounds like a thoroughly horrendous person. I doubt he is representative of trans people in general, however. 

He’s an extreme example I will

ackwlwgw that but never the less was able to enter a women and girls only space to commit a serious crime . That he was placed in a women’s prison is even more sickening ( but that’s one of the “ equal rights “ apparently self I’d didn’t have. They do now . 

[i wish jj was my dad]

4 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

I have already told you . He was in contact with a 16 years old so as part of his “ Contact “ he might have had more of an “ insight “ into how young people view the trans / self I’d issue as it appears to be heavily involved within younger persons culture . 

You are making quite a leap that he 'might'. 

There are predators in many walks of life and if I look back on it I was probably 'groomed' by an older female when I was only just above the age of consent. That doesn't make every woman a potential predator in my eyes. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, i wish jj was my dad said:

You are making quite a leap that he 'might'. 

There are predators in many walks of life and if I look back on it I was probably 'groomed' by an older female when I was only just above the age of consent. That doesn't make every woman a potential predator in my eyes. 

Yes buy everyone can be a potential predator . It’s that simple . Doesn’t meant everyone else 

[i wish jj was my dad]

Just now, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yes buy everyone can be a potential predator . It’s that simple . Doesn’t meant everyone else 

But you appear to me to be targeting a whole community based on that assumption you are making. That may or may not be your intention but it is how you are coming across to me as I have pointed out before. The consequences of which were seen yesterday where not for the first time a guy who says his family has been affected by abuse posted a horrible comment about paedo enablers and how they should be sorted out by the gorgie aggro. 

We've been over that before and you still haven't tempered your comments. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

But you appear to me to be targeting a whole community based on that assumption you are making. That may or may not be your intention but it is how you are coming across to me as I have pointed out before. The consequences of which were seen yesterday where not for the first time a guy who says his family has been affected by abuse posted a horrible comment about paedo enablers and how they should be sorted out by the gorgie aggro. 

We've been over that before and you still haven't tempered your comments. 

I have said “ some “ not the whole community , just like some men are predators . And wait a minute i am not responsible for Anyone’s else posts . That’s a low blow. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

But you appear to me to be targeting a whole community based on that assumption you are making. That may or may not be your intention but it is how you are coming across to me as I have pointed out before. The consequences of which were seen yesterday where not for the first time a guy who says his family has been affected by abuse posted a horrible comment about paedo enablers and how they should be sorted out by the gorgie aggro. 

We've been over that before and you still haven't tempered your comments. 

So why didn’t u challenge him then ? I also think the giy said his daughter was murdered too . So try and have some empathy , despite his other comments. 

[The Mighty Thor]

36 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I was the same until I read all the way through. This person was convicted for assaulting a 10 year old and a 12 year old girl. He sounds like a thoroughly horrendous person. I doubt he is representative of trans people in general, however. 

I read further articles on this individual and they're clearly very troubled. 

 

Not that it matters a huge amount but I couldn't determine whether the self ID as Trans came before or after the offences which saw them prosecuted.

 

The point of course being the GR bill would neither facilitate or prevent those type of individuals carrying out that type of crime. 

 

The stark reality is that you or I could put a dress and some make up on today self ID as Trans and go and piss in a women's public toilet if we so chose. The GR bill doesn't have any bearing on that. 

[The Mighty Thor]

36 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yes buy everyone can be a potential predator . It’s that simple . Doesn’t meant everyone else 

Which brings us neatly back to my point from earlier. 

 

What about young vulnerable men and their protection from gay sexual predators who use Men's safe spaces? 

[JudyJudyJudy]

11 hours ago, the posh bit said:

 

I think future generations will pish their pants at folk back in 2023 thinking that men would apply to change their sex just so they could abuse vulnerable women in their safe public spaces 😁

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Which brings us neatly back to my point from earlier. 

 

What about young vulnerable men and their protection from gay sexual predators who use Men's safe spaces? 

Again educating is the key . Make young people and children knowledgable about the insidious nature of grooming ( as noted in the Mackay case ) and that’s the best you can do . What are men’s safe spaces ? There is a unique power imbalance between men and women hence more safety issues required for women’s protection . 

[Bobilius]

1 hour ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I don't know the guy or if he does have school to go to but he seems to have hit the nail firmly on the head this morning. 

Whatever your history with him, he has outlined a perfectly credible and balanced argument. Chucking insults at him rather than engaging in grown up debate isn't countering any of his points. 

 

 

He’s been exposed and has no defence.

[The Mighty Thor]

4 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Again educating is the key . Make young people and children knowledgable about the insidious nature of grooming ( as noted in the Mackay case ) and that’s the best you can do . What are men’s safe spaces ? There is a unique power imbalance between men and women hence more safety issues required for women’s protection . 

Educating whom?

 

If it's that simple then surely the same would be true of Women and the perceived threat from Self ID Trans predators?

 

Men's safe spaces would be the same as those for Women, but for Men?

 

There's a potential difference in physicality between Men & Women but the same imbalances would be true between Men too.  Vulnerability is not necessarily confined to physicality so the protections would need to be the same from gay sexual predators as they are for Women from Self ID Trans predators.

 

Of course statistically speaking, I'm far more likely to be assualted by a gay sexual predator than my wife is by a Self ID Trans predator. So why doesn't legislation cover this and why aren't the communities up in arms about a potential issue not up in arms about an issue which actually happens?