****The All In One LGBTQ+ & Related Issues Mega Thread****

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Lord Montpelier said:

I'm currently sat in my local leisure centre

 

It has a female only toilet.

 

Notts, answer the question. Should men be allowed in that toilet (and by men, those with male genitalia as traditionally recognised)

My sons school has installed some mixed sex toilets, that fine, but girls at his school have the choice to use the mixed sex toilets of female only toilets, as have the teachers, but should boys be allowed into the girl only toilets? I would say no.

[Lord Montpelier]

2 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

I've answered all of them 

Nah, you've not. You keep ducking the one I posted above. 

[Lord Montpelier]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

My sons school has installed some mixed sex toilets, that fine, but girls at his school have the choice to use the mixed sex toilets of female only toilets, as have the teachers, but should boys be allowed into the girl only toilets? I would say no.

I would say no also. 

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

I've answered all of them 

You haven't. Do you think men should be allowed into women only spaces or compete against women in women only sports?

[BlueRiver]

2 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

My sons school has installed some mixed sex toilets, that fine, but girls at his school have the choice to use the mixed sex toilets of female only toilets, as have the teachers, but should boys be allowed into the girl only toilets? I would say no.

 

Why don't the boys get the option of boys only toilets? Weird set up. 

[Lord Montpelier]

2 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

You haven't. Do you think men should be allowed into women only spaces or compete against women in women only sports?

Bet he ducks it. 

[Dawnrazor]

5 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Why don't the boys get the option of boys only toilets? Weird set up. 

Sorry, they obviously do, the new mixed sex toilets were an addition to the male / female only toilets. 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Dawnrazor

[Notts1874]

3 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

You haven't. Do you think men should be allowed into women only spaces or compete against women in women only sports?

I actually have, you just can't see it.

[Lord Montpelier]

1 minute ago, Notts1874 said:

I actually have, you just can't see it.

Ducked it.

[BlueRiver]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

Sorry, they obviously do, the  ew mixed sex toilets were an addition to the male / female only toilets. 

 

Ah fairs. To be honest you say it's obvious that they would but in 2022 I'm never sure with these things. 

 

I reckon that school now in essence pretty much has 2 sets of boys toilets as couldn't imagine many lassies wanting to use the mixed! 

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Notts1874 said:

I actually have, you just can't see it.

Ok, humour me, I've read and re read your posts and I can't see where you've answered, so, let's start from scratch, do you think men should be allowed into women only spaces and compete against women in women only sports?

[Lord Montpelier]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

Ok, humour me, I've read and re read your posts and I can't see where you've answered, so, let's start from scratch, do you think men should be allowed into women only spaces and compete against women in women only sports?

Expect the reply to be a riddle at best 

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Ducked it.

 

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Ah fairs. To be honest you say it's obvious that they would but in 2022 I'm never sure with these things. 

 

I reckon that school now in essence pretty much has 2 sets of boys toilets as couldn't imagine many lassies wanting to use the mixed! 

I know, I'd thought it would be obvious but it just isn't these days! 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, Notts1874 said:

Shall we start at the bottom? 

 

The decision on sport will remain upto the sport's governing body. You know like, darts, snooker and horse based sports where they compete together. Other sports are still looking into this. 

 

Most public leisure centres already have mixed changing areas. I've been into many establishment's that have one toilet area with separate locked cubicles. 

 

Thank you for the reply

 

When i asked the question i asked what do YOU think of men competing in female sports not sports bodies etc.

 

Some public leisure centres have mixed changing areas. Thats true. I am more thinking about " females " only changing areas where there is literally no place to change in privacy ( such as a cubicle). My local sports gym has male and female changing rooms and most people just change in front of each other . in the relevent sex changing rooms. However this might now be an issue for women who might not want to exposed to male genitalia whilst being in a female only space. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

31 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

KD was a trans women at the time of the attacks, as I understand it. 

 

As I said before, all predatory men start somewhere. Maybe the starting point in the future will be to self ID as female when they are not on the radar to make it easier to do what they want. Beware of unintended consequences. 

I didn't know that so thanks for clarifying and I understand what you are driving at.

Your concerns are legitmate but while you may well be right you are still speculating rather than presenting evidence. 

Hopefully, if/when the bill passes through parliament all necessary safeguards are in place to protect everyone. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

All in your opinion. 

People, or at least I did, tried to engage in constructive debate but you couldn't accept that others don't have to share your opinion. 

As it happens, I am still open to persuasion but from the limited info I have seen in last few days- I am more inclined to think that the bill is a good thing. 

 

 

That is my opinion . I don't  always need to say explicitly every time i post " in my opinion) 

1 hour ago, Dawnrazor said:

You were asked if you agreed with the points in the questions, you haven't really answered, I'd be interested in your answers.

Yep 

1 hour ago, jonesy said:

If I get the boot polish out and go for a Stockton-style fancy dress night out, can I demand that I be treated by other black people as black? What’s the difference between doing that and cutting about with a bit of slap and a frock and wanting to be treated as a woman?

No difference at all. 

[redjambo]

26 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

I actually have, you just can't see it.

 

On behalf of any neutrals, I can't see it too then. Stating that mixed-gender spaces exist does not answer the question as to whether you are of the opinion that individuals born as men but identifying as women should be allowed into women-only spaces. It's akin to a politician answering a question by not answering it at all.

 

A simple yes or no would suffice.

[Lord Montpelier]

3 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

On behalf of any neutrals, I can't see it too then. Stating that mixed-gender spaces exist does not answer the question as to whether you are of the opinion that individuals born as men but identifying as women should be allowed into women-only spaces. It's akin to a politician answering a question by not answering it at all.

 

A simple yes or no would suffice.

Won't get it. Its a simple question Notts can't answer for some reason

[redjambo]

32 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

I actually have, you just can't see it.

 

Similarly, and I separate these replies because although related they are separate questions, do you think individuals born as men but identifying as women should be allowed to compete in women's sport? Stating that several sporting bodies have developed approaches to this issue does not answer the question as to where your opinions lie.

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, Notts1874 said:

Ah, but Judy gave a screenshot from a Spectator article about Norway. 

 

Ill post the full article 

1 hour ago, Notts1874 said:

I think you will find I have, mostly by using facts and things that already exist. 

 

 

No you didn't . You are using facts to back up an opinion which you haven't explicitly said. 

1 hour ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I doubt that the Spectator is adopting neutral stance. 

Never .  Ofcourse articles are going to argue one way or another. 

1 hour ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Lots of things , but that's for another day. 

 

In the meantime let's hope those who are elected do everything in their power to keep girls and women safe. Hell mend them if they fail. 

Yep

1 hour ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Tbh I'll be telling my daughter what she needs to do if she feels threatened off the back of this (she already knows, but I'll be asking her to increase her awareness of predatory men entering private spaces). Better safe than sorry, she'll be told to leave that space if this happens. If it causes hurty feelings, tough. 

Good parenting

1 hour ago, Lord Montpelier said:

That's a shame, before I read that I thought she was from the normal / sensible department in the SNP. (Not that's there's many of them)

She is very much against the Self ID . Shes a good politician . 

1 hour ago, Dawnrazor said:

The thing is, you haven't answered, it's obvious you haven't, you must know you haven't, the points were simple regardless of who asked you.

Why won't you answer directly the points in the post?

Hes like a politician. 

43 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

KD was a trans women at the time of the attacks, as I understand it. 

 

As I said before, all predatory men start somewhere. Maybe the starting point in the future will be to self ID as female when they are not on the radar to make it easier to do what they want. Beware of unintended consequences. 

The question is why make it easier for predators to abuse women and girls.  Thats the issue. This legislation makes it easier.  Note. I am not saying all those who self ID are predators. 

29 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Expect the reply to be a riddle at best 

I know Jesus. 

30 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Ok, humour me, I've read and re read your posts and I can't see where you've answered, so, let's start from scratch, do you think men should be allowed into women only spaces and compete against women in women only sports?

Its almost like he's gaslighting you mate. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

On behalf of any neutrals, I can't see it too then. Stating that mixed-gender spaces exist does not answer the question as to whether you are of the opinion that individuals born as men but identifying as women should be allowed into women-only spaces. It's akin to a politician answering a question by not answering it at all.

 

A simple yes or no would suffice.

well said Red. and for the record Red is very much neutral and has no bones to pick on this subject or axe to grind. 

[Lord Montpelier]

For the record, @XB52is another contributor like Notts who seems to avoid answering a very simple question on this topic. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

22 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Your concerns are legitmate but while you may well be right you are still speculating rather than presenting evidence. 

So an example of a 10 years old girl  being abused in a female only toilet by a person who self ID is not " evidence " ?

[redjambo]

2 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

well said Red. and for the record Red is very much neutral and has no bones to pick on this subject or axe to grind. 

 

I wouldn't say that I am "very much" neutral Judy. It is a very complex subject and there are areas with which I agree, and with which you would disagree, and areas about which I am concerned. Overall, I would like folk to be able to live as another sex/gender if they so please but I don't want the rights and safety of other individuals, notably women, to suffer as a result. I also don't want to see pressure, societal or otherwise, put on people, and especially younger people, to have physical transgender operations without sufficient reflection. If we can find a way to allow freedom of being while having measures in place to protect folk from others and themselves then I would consider that a success.

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

For the record, @XB52is another contributor like Notts who seems to avoid answering a very simple question on this topic. 

and for the record there is also a very high correlation between those who support this legislation and voting for the SNP too. Maybe take their tartan glasses off?  See a bit clearer. Although the bill did recieve cross party support ( god knows what Labour were thinking ? ) 

[Lord Montpelier]

3 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

and for the record there is also a very high correlation between those who support this legislation and voting for the SNP too. Maybe take their tartan glasses off?  See a bit clearer. Although the bill did recieve cross party support ( god knows what Labour were thinking ? ) 

It's something I've noticed as well. Almost like they can't admit some of this is bonkers as it would go against SNP high command desires. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

I wouldn't say that I am "very much" neutral Judy. It is a very complex subject and there are areas with which I agree, and with which you would disagree, and areas about which I am concerned. Overall, I would like folk to be able to live as another sex/gender if they so please but I don't want the rights and safety of other individuals, notably women, to suffer as a result. I also don't want to see pressure, societal or otherwise, put on people, and especially younger people, to have physical transgender operations without sufficient reflection. If we can find a way to allow freedom of being while having measures in place to protect folk from others and themselves then I would consider that a success.

👍

 

"I also don't want to see pressure, societal or otherwise, put on people, and especially younger people, to have physical transgender operations without sufficient reflection." 

 

Me too. That's why the British Govt have quite rightly said NO to a full ban on so called " conversion" Children can claim to be a hyena one day and the next day a cat.  They like to rebel and annoy their parents. I know. I was once a teenager. 

 

Teenagers in particular need impartial supports like counsellors to explore their issues regarding gender identity and not just be rail road roaded  into  puberty blockers and even worse physical operations . Both are irreversible and both cause serious long term health risks.  Give those experiencing issues with their identity the space and time to explore and work out who they are.  Most usually turn out to be happy homosexuals or lesbians in their adult life. 

 

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

28 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

That is my opinion . I don't  always need to say explicitly every time i post " in my opinion) 

 

I am glad you are acknowledging that it is only your opinion. 

Others may see the past few days as very positive and help them live far happier lives. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

It's something I've noticed as well. Almost like they can't admit some of this is bonkers as it would go against SNP high command desires. 

Yep 👍

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, i wish jj was my dad said:

I am glad you are acknowledging that it is only your opinion. 

Others may see the past few days as very positive and help them live far happier lives. 

Without going over old ground its fairly obvious it is my opinion. Its implicit. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

9 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

So an example of a 10 years old girl  being abused in a female only toilet by a person who self ID is not " evidence " ?

How is it evidence? The attack was not in any way a consequence of this bill.  M said 'Maybe the starting point.. ' that could be true but that is speculation rather than evidence. 

 

If a male predator who doesn't identify as a female did the same thing (and I think i have a recollection of something like that occurring before) that doesn't automatically mean that other men will do the same. 

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

How is it evidence? The attack was not in any way a consequence of this bill.  M said 'Maybe the starting point.. ' that could be true but that is speculation rather than evidence. 

 

If a male predator who doesn't identify as a female did the same thing (and I think i have a recollection of something like that occurring before) that doesn't automatically mean that other men will do the same. 

 

 

Yes but as i said it makes it easier for predators to access areas for their own sordid reasons.  Why make it easier ? 

Edited December 21, 2022 by JudyJudyJudy

[Lord Montpelier]

4 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

How is it evidence? The attack was not in any way a consequence of this bill.  M said 'Maybe the starting point.. ' that could be true but that is speculation rather than evidence. 

 

If a male predator who doesn't identify as a female did the same thing (and I think i have a recollection of something like that occurring before) that doesn't automatically mean that other men will do the same. 

 

 

If you were conducting risk analysis on this whole thing it would be a very fair risk to raise.

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

If you were conducting risk analysis on this whole thing it would be a very fair risk to raise.

Yep  That's it if one using a risk assessment tool it would be identified as a risk.

 

Also its about how women perceive risk. Their feelings need to be taken into account. They aren't. 

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

 

 

Also its about how women perceive risk. Their feelings need to be taken into account.  

This is it for me, men telling women how to feel and when to feel at risk is not on.

[JudyJudyJudy]

KInda says it all really

 

 

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yes but as i said it makes it easier for predators to access areas for their own sordid reasons.  Why make it easier ? 

If it does - and that remains to be seen - it is still not evidence. 

 

It's exactly the point I was making earlier. You presented the example as evidence. It isn't. Neither is your opinion a fact.

 

I have no desire to change any of your opinions or inhibit your right to be heard but the way you have been expressing yourself about this and the lack of respect for opposing views which are equally legitimately held seems little or no different from the militant activists you oppose. 

 

And to address another of your points, I am no SNP activist and I think their leadership have handled this issue appallingly no matter how well intentioned. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

And to address another of your points, I am no SNP activist

I didn't say everyone who supported it also were keen on the SNP 

[i wish jj was my dad]

17 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

If you were conducting risk analysis on this whole thing it would be a very fair risk to raise.

I agree. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

5 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

You presented the example as evidence.

it is evidence that when a man who enters a womens only space without question it can cause an issue like the assault on that young girl.  

[Mikey1874]

2 hours ago, Lord Montpelier said:

That's a shame, before I read that I thought she was from the normal / sensible department in the SNP. (Not that's there's many of them)

 

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

I didn't say everyone who supported it also were keen on the SNP 

That's true. You never said 'everyone' but you have laboured the point so why raise it in the first place? 

 

[Lord Montpelier]

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

 

Cherry would be better now changing her political party or going independent. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

 

Brilliant.

 

A shero

 

 

[Ked]

Two very opposite views given on channel 4 news there.

Both argued well .

One from stonewall and the other woman's group.

13 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

How is it evidence? The attack was not in any way a consequence of this bill.  M said 'Maybe the starting point.. ' that could be true but that is speculation rather than evidence. 

 

If a male predator who doesn't identify as a female did the same thing (and I think i have a recollection of something like that occurring before) that doesn't automatically mean that other men will do the same. 

 

 

No it doesn't.

But there's a fair percentage that do.

Both arguments have merit but I have to side with the woman on channel 4.

I mean it's really something when they won't disallow convicted sex offenders from going for change.

I do think that her argument that women's rights have only started to marry up relatively recently.

And that there is no protective measures in place for women's safety.

5 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

If it does - and that remains to be seen - it is still not evidence. 

 

It's exactly the point I was making earlier. You presented the example as evidence. It isn't. Neither is your opinion a fact.

 

I have no desire to change any of your opinions or inhibit your right to be heard but the way you have been expressing yourself about this and the lack of respect for opposing views which are equally legitimately held seems little or no different from the militant activists you oppose. 

 

And to address another of your points, I am no SNP activist and I think their leadership have handled this issue appallingly no matter how well intentioned. 

She also said some interesting things regarding the evidence about other countries such as Ireland.

That 7 years ago there was no female prisoners convicted of sexual assault.

There are now 3 .All of which were men.

She also cited other examples.

She came across well.

[i wish jj was my dad]

1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

it is evidence that when a man who enters a womens only space without question it can cause an issue like the assault on that young girl.  

It's really not evidence that this bill makes it less safe or that more attacks will take place. It is speculation. 

I'm not going around the houses on this though. You have your view. It's your campaign. How you conduct it is down to you. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

1 minute ago, Ked said:

Two very opposite views given on channel 4 news there.

Both argued well .

One from stonewall and the other woman's group.

No it doesn't.

But there's a fair percentage that do.

Both arguments have merit but I have to side with the woman on channel 4.

I mean it's really something when they won't disallow convicted sex offenders from going for change.

I do think that her argument that women's rights have only started to marry up relatively recently.

And that there is no protective measures in place for women's safety.

She also said some interesting things regarding the evidence about other countries such as Ireland.

That 7 years ago there was no female prisoners convicted of sexual assault.

There are now 3 .All of which were men.

She also cited other examples.

She came across well.

That is a helpful intervention and the first time anybody has presented anything to counter Uly's view. Hopefully, something factored into the passage (or otherwise) of the Bill. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Cherry would be better now changing her political party or going independent. 

True. But maybe she wants to affect change from inside. But with the iron grip the Murrells have i rather doubt it.  Shes maybe happier being the stirrer up and being thr adult in the room. An adult human female.  

[JudyJudyJudy]

5 minutes ago, Ked said:

Two very opposite views given on channel 4 news there.

Both argued well .

One from stonewall and the other woman's group.

No it doesn't.

But there's a fair percentage that do.

Both arguments have merit but I have to side with the woman on channel 4.

I mean it's really something when they won't disallow convicted sex offenders from going for change.

I do think that her argument that women's rights have only started to marry up relatively recently.

And that there is no protective measures in place for women's safety.

She also said some interesting things regarding the evidence about other countries such as Ireland.

That 7 years ago there was no female prisoners convicted of sexual assault.

There are now 3 .All of which were men.

She also cited other examples.

She came across well.

The spectator article which notes a 300 per cent rise in rape in Norway committed by women , after their GRC act came into play 

 

 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/does-the-snp-really-want-to-copy-norway-s-gender-revolution/