National rail strikes planned by RMT

[joondalupjambo]

On 07/01/2023 at 22:49, Dirk McTarkin said:

General strike incoming.

 

Hopefully some lively civil disobedience to follow.

Lets bring these *******s to heel.

Unfortunately we are not France.  Unions would only be able to pull together public bodies in the main to strike across the board.  In order to bring this lot to heel we would need the private sector employees to join in and come out to support any General Strike. 

 

Unfortunately too many people now only care for themselves, are too scared to put their heads above the parapet, are too well off, are happy for others to fight and/or too young to understand the benefits of a united fight.  

 

This current fight is a Tory ideological one and sadly it could be badly for the general public.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

2 hours ago, Nucky Thompson said:

They've got the same legislation all over Europe as well

 

How does that not surprise me.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

2 hours ago, joondalupjambo said:

Unfortunately we are not France.  Unions would only be able to pull together public bodies in the main to strike across the board.  In order to bring this lot to heel we would need the private sector employees to join in and come out to support any General Strike. 

 

Unfortunately too many people now only care for themselves, are too scared to put their heads above the parapet, are too well off, are happy for others to fight and/or too young to understand the benefits of a united fight.  

 

This current fight is a Tory ideological one and sadly it could be badly for the general public.

Hmm. I’m not being funny but what protection would private sector workers have in that scenario? A lot of the private sector isn’t unionised or not in the way the public sector are 

[joondalupjambo]

8 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Hmm. I’m not being funny but what protection would private sector workers have in that scenario? A lot of the private sector isn’t unionised or not in the way the public sector are 

Yeah sorry that is what I am saying as well.  Without a mass of private employees walking out then there is not really a general strike and so that type of action is not going to work.  And you are right it would be hard for them because many would be scared of any repercussions.  They could take a day's leave to attend any rallies I guess but that goes back to my other point of how many people really care deeply enough about others.  

 

The sad thing is the Tories can portray the Union's as bad guys in the media and rule by dividing and conquering.  IMHO I think if they can break the NHS strikes then they can play real and even more hard ball with any others.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

4 minutes ago, joondalupjambo said:

Yeah sorry that is what I am saying as well.  Without a mass of private employees walking out then there is not really a general strike and so that type of action is not going to work.  And you are right it would be hard for them because many would be scared of any repercussions.  They could take a day's leave to attend any rallies I guess but that goes back to my other point of how many people really care deeply enough about others.  

 

The sad thing is the Tories can portray the Union's as bad guys in the media and rule by dividing and conquering.  IMHO I think if they can break the NHS strikes then they can play real and even more hard ball with any others.

I know this is very cynical and I know it’s not helpful but plenty in the private sector would ask what the public sector is doing for them in return. It’s all tit for tat and pathetic but let’s be honest, public sector strikes are impinging on private sector folk, not the other way round.

[il Duce McTarkin]

7 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

I know this is very cynical and I know it’s not helpful but plenty in the private sector would ask what the public sector is doing for them in return. It’s all tit for tat and pathetic but let’s be honest, public sector strikes are impinging on private sector folk, not the other way round.

 

I'm in the private sector, but would gladly join my unionised comrades in lobbing molotovs at the arm of an increasingly authoritarian state. 

[il Duce McTarkin]

Metaphorically speaking, like. 

[maroonlegions]

8 minutes ago, Dirk McTarkin said:

 

I'm in the private sector, but would gladly join my unionised comrades in lobbing molotovs at the arm of an increasingly authoritarian state. 

Well, bet you are glad that Corbyn did not win the last GE. I mean otherwise we would be having loads of strikes and we would have been dragged back to the 1970s eh..

 

 

[il Duce McTarkin]

1 minute ago, maroonlegions said:

Well, bet you are glad that Corbyn did not win the last GE. I mean otherwise we would be having loads of strikes and we would have been dragged back to the 1970s eh..

 

 

 

WTF are you on about you gibbering imbecile? 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

18 minutes ago, Dirk McTarkin said:

 

I'm in the private sector, but would gladly join my unionised comrades in lobbing molotovs at the arm of an increasingly authoritarian state. 

me too but then you’d get disciplined/sacked and let me tell you, “hard-pressed hospital consultants” are not going to be fighting for you 🤑

[il Duce McTarkin]

22 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

me too but then you’d get disciplined/sacked and let me tell you, “hard-pressed hospital consultants” are not going to be fighting for you 🤑

 

Hard-pressed hospital consultants are not who I have in mind, tbh. 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

6 minutes ago, Dirk McTarkin said:

 

Hard-pressed hospital consultants are not who I have in mind, tbh. 

True, true but neither is Barry oaf the trains.

[il Duce McTarkin]

2 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

True, true but neither is Barry oaf the trains.

 

**** Barry oaf the trains too. I just want to join with the economically disenfranchised to loot whitehall and lob petrol bombs at riot police. 

 

Civil disobedience gets shit done. 

[The Mighty Thor]

1 minute ago, Dirk McTarkin said:

 

**** Barry oaf the trains too. I just want to join with the economically disenfranchised to loot whitehall and lob petrol bombs at riot police. 

 

Civil disobedience gets shit done. 

Given the utterly shit state of the 5-0, if they could strike they'd join you 

[il Duce McTarkin]

1 minute ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Given the utterly shit state of the 5-0, if they could strike they'd join you 

 

That's the cold, hard, facts right there, Thor. 

[Jeffros Furios]

I quite fancy a bit of civil disorder... politicians are ***** 

[manaliveits105]

Mon the government smash the unions 

 

 

[SectionDJambo]

If the proposed legislation passes, what's to stop workers just working their contracted hours with no take up of overtime? No breach of contract there.

That would result in more chaos in the longer term and, in the case of the NHS, highlight just how much the government has underfunded, underpaid and over worked all hospital medical staff and ambulance medics.

It would make more sense to stop sabre rattling and actually talk to them about pay and conditions. Unfortunately, there are too many blockheads in the current government who think that their stance is a vote winner. 

[Cade]

Mind when we left the EU, we were going to build a "high wage economy" and workers' rights would be enhanced?

 

Now it's "no you cannae have a pay rise you commie feckers" and "striking is illegal"

Edited January 11, 2023 by Cade

[Nucky Thompson]

2 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

Mon the government smash the unions 

 

 

Fair comment 

[frankblack]

1 hour ago, SectionDJambo said:

If the proposed legislation passes, what's to stop workers just working their contracted hours with no take up of overtime? No breach of contract there.

That would result in more chaos in the longer term and, in the case of the NHS, highlight just how much the government has underfunded, underpaid and over worked all hospital medical staff and ambulance medics.

It would make more sense to stop sabre rattling and actually talk to them about pay and conditions. Unfortunately, there are too many blockheads in the current government who think that their stance is a vote winner. 

 

The unions were taking the piss with their posturing over 19%.

 

I don't know if they have come back to reality yet but that is no way to instigate negotiations.

[Dennis Reynolds]

As always, good luck to them all.

[The Real Maroonblood]

28 minutes ago, Dennis Reynolds said:

As always, good luck to them all.

👍

[skinnybob72]

Anyone who sides with the Gov in the strikes should be careful what they wish for. 

 

My reading of the legislation they are trying to bring in re strikes is basically saying that if you are unhappy with the pay you are being offered by your employer then tough, we're making it illegal for you to withdraw your labour in protest. If the unions lose re pay demands then you can expect to see reductions in sick pay, holidays and pensions as workers rights are simply eroded in the name of corporate greed.  

[SectionDJambo]

3 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

The unions were taking the piss with their posturing over 19%.

 

I don't know if they have come back to reality yet but that is no way to instigate negotiations.

You think that they expected to get 19% in one go? Nobody in government bothered to ask them. They preferred confrontation over discussion over pay.

I wonder how much MPs salaries and expenses allowances have gone up in percentage terms, in the 12 years of Conservative government, in comparison with NHS nurses and ambulance medics. I don’t know the answer but I’d be surprised if they are similar. 
This dispute is about how the NHS has been run down and underfunded for years, not just since inflation hit 10%.
The government talks about the need for NHS staff to provide a minimum standard of service to the UK public when they have ensured that the current minimum standard of service that exists outwith strikes is as low as it’s ever been.
They blame covid and Putin, but they failed to provide and supply wealth to the UK through real sustainable growth over many years. 
They have failed the country and are going to leave an economic disaster behind them when they lose the next election.

[Captain Sausage]

Interesting podcast on The Rest is Politics covering the NHS. 
 

The whole thing is an absolute mess - teachers, nurses, doctors, bin men, rail workers - everyone seeing others strike for improved pay deals and (rightfully) wondering why they aren’t getting some of it. 
 

The private sector is going to get hammered over the next 12-36 months and it will have a knock on impact on the governments ability to fund the public sector. The legacy of Brexit and Covid will mean we are all absolutely ****ed. 
 

There is no right answer here. Acquiesce to the strikers and the government tab grows at a time where contributors to the pot are being squeezed harder than any time in the last 50 years. It’s easy to point at the chronic mismanagement of our current ruling party over the last 12 years, but much harder to see any way out of this other than accepting Brexit was a disaster, re-entering Europe and attempting to latch onto the green shoots of recover in the EU. 

[frankblack]

7 hours ago, SectionDJambo said:

You think that they expected to get 19% in one go? Nobody in government bothered to ask them. They preferred confrontation over discussion over pay.

 

If you bring a crazy number to the table then its hardly surprising the government wouldn't negotiate.  Crass stupidly and ignorance from the unions there.

 

7 hours ago, SectionDJambo said:

I wonder how much MPs salaries and expenses allowances have gone up in percentage terms, in the 12 years of Conservative government, in comparison with NHS nurses and ambulance medics. I don’t know the answer but I’d be surprised if they are similar. 

 

That is irrelevant, and an attempt to relate two very different jobs.

 

7 hours ago, SectionDJambo said:

 

This dispute is about how the NHS has been run down and underfunded for years, not just since inflation hit 10%.
The government talks about the need for NHS staff to provide a minimum standard of service to the UK public when they have ensured that the current minimum standard of service that exists outwith strikes is as low as it’s ever been.

 

That may or may not be true but its unrealistic to expect to make it up in one go.

 

7 hours ago, SectionDJambo said:

They blame covid and Putin, but they failed to provide and supply wealth to the UK through real sustainable growth over many years. 
They have failed the country and are going to leave an economic disaster behind them when they lose the next election.

 

Nobody is denying the shitshow of this parliament or that they will get emptied.  However its not relevant to this argument.

[maroondevo52]

9 hours ago, skinnybob72 said:

Anyone who sides with the Gov in the strikes should be careful what they wish for. 

 

My reading of the legislation they are trying to bring in re strikes is basically saying that if you are unhappy with the pay you are being offered by your employer then tough, we're making it illegal for you to withdraw your labour in protest. If the unions lose re pay demands then you can expect to see reductions in sick pay, holidays and pensions as workers rights are simply eroded in the name of corporate greed.  

 

Exactly, well said, unfortunately some people just don't see this.

[The Real Maroonblood]

10 hours ago, skinnybob72 said:

Anyone who sides with the Gov in the strikes should be careful what they wish for. 

 

My reading of the legislation they are trying to bring in re strikes is basically saying that if you are unhappy with the pay you are being offered by your employer then tough, we're making it illegal for you to withdraw your labour in protest. If the unions lose re pay demands then you can expect to see reductions in sick pay, holidays and pensions as workers rights are simply eroded in the name of corporate greed.  

Good post.

Some would rather bend over and take it dry.

[Dennis Reynolds]

9 hours ago, SectionDJambo said:

I wonder how much MPs salaries and expenses allowances have gone up in percentage terms, in the 12 years of Conservative government, in comparison with NHS nurses and ambulance medics. I don’t know the answer but I’d be surprised if they are similar.  

 

"Between 2012 and 2022, the pay of the average nurse has risen by just £3,908, while MPs have been a staggering rise of £18,406."

 

https://nursingnotes.co.uk/news/politics/mps-awarded-2200-pay-rise-for-dramatically-increased-duties-due-to-the-pandemic/

 

 

"Since 2010 (to 2021), MPs have had eight pay rises, amounting in total to an increase in salary of just under 25 per cent – or £16,500, just over half the national total average annual income.

 

Contrast that with the salaries of nurses whose pitifully small increases over the same period amount, in real terms, to a reduction of 10 per cent."

 

https://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/19425939.nurses-pitifully-small-pay-rises-compared-mps/

 

 

They always find money for their own wage rises whilst telling everyone else there is no money.

[frankblack]

2 hours ago, Dennis Reynolds said:

 

"Between 2012 and 2022, the pay of the average nurse has risen by just £3,908, while MPs have been a staggering rise of £18,406."

 

https://nursingnotes.co.uk/news/politics/mps-awarded-2200-pay-rise-for-dramatically-increased-duties-due-to-the-pandemic/

 

 

"Since 2010 (to 2021), MPs have had eight pay rises, amounting in total to an increase in salary of just under 25 per cent – or £16,500, just over half the national total average annual income.

 

Contrast that with the salaries of nurses whose pitifully small increases over the same period amount, in real terms, to a reduction of 10 per cent."

 

https://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/19425939.nurses-pitifully-small-pay-rises-compared-mps/

 

 

They always find money for their own wage rises whilst telling everyone else there is no money.

 

As much as I despise many politicians, its a nonsense comparison.

 

Its like me saying I earn less than the investment bankers but I deserve it because technically we are in the same company.  I'd get laughed at by my HR department.

[Japan Jambo]

On 04/01/2023 at 13:17, ri Alban said:

Nothing about Prince Andrew, the cost of energy, the cost of fuel, the cost of food.

Telling us that more money is being put into the NHS, but forgetting that it cost more to run, because of energy, fuel, food, supplies, inflation etc .  But putting these working class heroes wage up and it's

 

You need the Radio 4 today program for that Ri, or Shereen on a Saturday morning. The BBC loves to shroud wave.

[Japan Jambo]

On 05/01/2023 at 16:39, IronJambo said:

As funny as it is this is exactly why Steve Hedley isn't the assistant general secretary anymore and why he doesn't get to speak in public very often.

 

Guy is an embarrassment, what a complete walloper. Show itself looks like car crash TV judging by that clip.

 

Not much meeting in the middle going on with regard to the national discourse around these strikes.

[Japan Jambo]

6 hours ago, Captain Sausage said:

Interesting podcast on The Rest is Politics covering the NHS. 
 

The whole thing is an absolute mess - teachers, nurses, doctors, bin men, rail workers - everyone seeing others strike for improved pay deals and (rightfully) wondering why they aren’t getting some of it. 
 

The private sector is going to get hammered over the next 12-36 months and it will have a knock on impact on the governments ability to fund the public sector. The legacy of Brexit and Covid will mean we are all absolutely ****ed. 
 

There is no right answer here. Acquiesce to the strikers and the government tab grows at a time where contributors to the pot are being squeezed harder than any time in the last 50 years. It’s easy to point at the chronic mismanagement of our current ruling party over the last 12 years, but much harder to see any way out of this other than accepting Brexit was a disaster, re-entering Europe and attempting to latch onto the green shoots of recover in the EU. 

 

Furlough while absolutely the right call day one was allowed to run on for way, way too long. It's like a Christmas party where one table orders champagne and there is a dust up when the bill arrives. There is karma in Rishi having to figure out how the bills he ran up playing sidekick to Boris the Bountiful will be paid for.

 

Some rapprochement/common market solution along Norwegian/Swiss lines wouldn't half take the edge off things I'm sure. Problem with that is both Red and Blue are all in on 'taking back control'.

[Pans Jambo]

The lapdug almost looks pleased about this 😂

 

[Japan Jambo]

4 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

The lapdug almost looks pleased about this 😂

 

 

FFS if you're doing a banner at least make the writing big enough to read. 

 

[Pans Jambo]

44 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

FFS if you're doing a banner at least make the writing big enough to read. 

 

The Ispos Mori poll result can be read quite clearly I though 👓

[Dennis Reynolds]

2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

As much as I despise many politicians, its a nonsense comparison.

 

Its like me saying I earn less than the investment bankers but I deserve it because technically we are in the same company.  I'd get laughed at by my HR department.

 

Are investment bankers dictating what you should be paid?

[frankblack]

1 hour ago, Dennis Reynolds said:

 

Are investment bankers dictating what you should be paid?

 

No, but neither are politicians.  If unions went in with a realistic figure to start with the government would negotiate.

[Cruyff]

11 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

No, but neither are politicians.  If unions went in with a realistic figure to start with the government would negotiate.

If the Tories had not completely wrecked the country, folk wouldn't be asking for a pay rise. People should not be worse of because of their incompetence. 

[Cade]

13 years of below inflation pay rises.

Which, if you are any good at maths, means 13 years of pay CUTS.

Enough is enough.

Pay people properly.

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

28 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

If the Tories had not completely wrecked the country, folk wouldn't be asking for a pay rise. People should not be worse of because of their incompetence. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

8 hours ago, Dennis Reynolds said:

 

"Between 2012 and 2022, the pay of the average nurse has risen by just £3,908, while MPs have been a staggering rise of £18,406."

 

https://nursingnotes.co.uk/news/politics/mps-awarded-2200-pay-rise-for-dramatically-increased-duties-due-to-the-pandemic/

 

 

"Since 2010 (to 2021), MPs have had eight pay rises, amounting in total to an increase in salary of just under 25 per cent – or £16,500, just over half the national total average annual income.

 

Contrast that with the salaries of nurses whose pitifully small increases over the same period amount, in real terms, to a reduction of 10 per cent."

 

https://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/19425939.nurses-pitifully-small-pay-rises-compared-mps/

 

 

They always find money for their own wage rises whilst telling everyone else there is no money.

 

The government are quick to point out that this year they are implimenting the pay award in full that the pay review body has set out for nurses, however what they fail to mention is all the years (as much as 10) which the very same government ignored the pay review body's recommendations and imposed a 1% pay rise for nurses and other public sector workers, whilst happily accepting a 10%-11% pay rise that the same pay review body recommended for MP's, and that was just for one year, MP's got the same or more  % payrise in one year than public sector workers got in a decade, which is effectively been a wage cut as even 1% wasn't keeping up with inflation, multiply that over 10 years and it amounts to a substantial loss of earnings for the public sector.

 

If the pay review body recommends that nurses get a 12% pay rise next year, does anybody really think that the government will accept it and impliment it......not a fecking chance imo.

 

My old work were similar, happy to award payrises in line with inflation, when inflation was at 2%-3% but when it was sitting at 7%-8% not so keen then, despite that being the agreement made.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Jambo-Jimbo

[Cade]

16 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

The government are quick to point out that this year they are implimenting the pay award in full that the pay review body has set out for nurses, however what they fail to mention is all the years (as much as 10) which the very same government ignored the pay review body's recommendations and imposed a 1% pay rise for nurses and other public sector workers, whilst happily accepting a 10%-11% pay rise that the same pay review body recommended for MP's, and that was just for one year, MP's got the same or more  % payrise in one year than public sector workers got in a decade, which is effectively been a wage cut as even 1% wasn't keeping up with inflation, multiply that over 10 years and it amounts to a substantial loss of earnings for the public sector.

 

If the pay review body recommends that nurses get a 12% pay rise next year, does anybody really think that the government will accept it and impliment it......not a fecking chance imo.

 

My old work were similar, happy to award payrises in line with inflation, when inflation was at 2%-3% but when it was sitting at 7%-8% not so keen then, despite that being the agreement made.

The pay review body is not independent, as the Junta keep claiming.

 

Only last week they were in the news because they asked the pay review body to only recommend 2% next year

 

 

 

"Ministers have asked the NHS pay review body to cap the increase in frontline health workers’ pay to 2% in 2023-24 to help the government achieve its ambition to curb soaring inflation."

Edited January 12, 2023 by Cade

[frankblack]

50 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

If the Tories had not completely wrecked the country, folk wouldn't be asking for a pay rise. People should not be worse of because of their incompetence. 

 

Putin and the pandemic had a major part.  Other countries in Europe have the same issues with energy cost and strikes.

 

I'm not excusing the Tories but merely pointing out your argument isn't so clear cut.

[Cruyff]

5 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Putin and the pandemic had a major part.  Other countries in Europe have the same issues with energy cost and strikes.

 

I'm not excusing the Tories but merely pointing out your argument isn't so clear cut.

Brexit is the main cause of inflation. 

[Nucky Thompson]

1 minute ago, Cruyff said:

Brexit is the main cause of inflation. 

Really 

 

Has Brexit caused the soaring inflation all over the World 

[Cruyff]

5 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

Really 

 

Has Brexit caused the soaring inflation all over the World 

 

Richard Davies, an associate of CEP’s growth programme and a professor at Bristol University and study co-author, said: “The UK inflation rate rose above 11 per cent in 2022, the highest rate in 40 years. Many factors, affecting both supply and demand for goods and services, are involved. One factor in this high inflation has been the rise in non-tariff barriers for trade with the EU.

 

“In leaving the EU, the UK swapped a deep trade relationship with few impediments to trade for one where a wide range of checks, forms and steps are required before goods can cross the border. Firms faced higher costs and passed most of these onto consumers. Over the two years to the end of 2021, Brexit increased food prices by around six per cent overall.”

 

Nikhil Datta, an associate of CEP’s labour markets programme and an assistant professor of economics at Warwick University and study co-author, said: “The policy implications are stark: non-tariff barriers are an important impediment to trade that should be a first-order concern, at least on par with tariffs, for policymakers interested in low consumer prices.

 

“We calculate that Brexit caused a loss of £210 for the average household, or £5.84 billion overall, when looking at its impact on the food market alone. Since poorer households spend a larger fraction of their income on food, they are hit harder.” 

 

 

[Dazo]

11 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

Really 

 

Has Brexit caused the soaring inflation all over the World 

Not just that, everyone is only asking for a pay rise because of the Tories. We’d all be happy with our pay if Labour were in power. 😊

[Nucky Thompson]

6 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

 

Richard Davies, an associate of CEP’s growth programme and a professor at Bristol University and study co-author, said: “The UK inflation rate rose above 11 per cent in 2022, the highest rate in 40 years. Many factors, affecting both supply and demand for goods and services, are involved. One factor in this high inflation has been the rise in non-tariff barriers for trade with the EU.

 

“In leaving the EU, the UK swapped a deep trade relationship with few impediments to trade for one where a wide range of checks, forms and steps are required before goods can cross the border. Firms faced higher costs and passed most of these onto consumers. Over the two years to the end of 2021, Brexit increased food prices by around six per cent overall.”

 

Nikhil Datta, an associate of CEP’s labour markets programme and an assistant professor of economics at Warwick University and study co-author, said: “The policy implications are stark: non-tariff barriers are an important impediment to trade that should be a first-order concern, at least on par with tariffs, for policymakers interested in low consumer prices.

 

“We calculate that Brexit caused a loss of £210 for the average household, or £5.84 billion overall, when looking at its impact on the food market alone. Since poorer households spend a larger fraction of their income on food, they are hit harder.” 

 

 

What part of many factors don't you understand?

 

Is Brexit causing the 12.6% inflation in Italy or the 11.3% inflation in Germany and the Netherlands?

 

Next you'll be telling us that only Tories voted for Brexit