Tynecastle Park Hotel ( updated )

[JimmyCant]

12 minutes ago, The Maroon Pound said:

Thanks, does make you wonder if it is worth it, should just rent it out to Travelodge, The Waldorf, Trump, or some hotel chain and let them pay us and take up the running costs 

Yes that would be a good option. ‘The Radisson Tynecastle Park’  you’d still struggle to get over £100k a year but it’s guaranteed income with no £1million initial outlay and no refurb or maintenance or staff costs and it’s long term. you would also get all the F&B from their guests, plus there are club/stand/shirt sponsorship possibilities on top of that. The big drawback being a big high end global operator probably wouldn’t even answer the phone on it for less than 50 rooms

Edited March 27, 2022 by JimmyCant

[Fort Vallance]

On 25/03/2022 at 17:58, ri Alban said:

What's the West Ham stadium like? Do they still prefer Upton Park/Boleyn Ground?

Most of the old school would say they prefer The Boleyn.  But there's the start of a whole new generation that wouldn't have been able to go if they hadn't moved. They couldn't be described as glory hunters and certainly a lot more families. 

[OTT]

1 hour ago, JimmyCant said:

Best case : 12 rooms at 75% occupancy 365 nights at £100 a night after VAT and servicing costs is just over £300k a year. Deduct half that for staff and maintenance and equipment and you have £150k profit, so around 6 years before it pays for itself then you have to refurbish it

 

What about during the festival? Pretty much a license to print cash there with every hotel, air bnb and dodgy let eaten up, it means tourist living space is scare. It should give us a month run to charge through the nose for it which would be just prior/first couple of weeks of the new season right? If its geared more as a 'boutique' hotel, then its going to be more up market than one of these chain hotels where they're selling on volume low quality cheap rooms. 

 

I think during the season there is an opportunity to sell it as part of a 'super supporter experience' bundle type deal for fans from further afield which would easily go for much more than £100 a night. Match day ticket, museum tour, hospitality and lunch/dinner at the Skyline. I think you could charge a lot more for that. Could even throw in a meet and greet with some of the players etc.

 

I think your scepticism is warranted because any new thing should be scrutinised but there is definitely huge upside and a good chance to take advantage of the tourist market within Edinburgh. 

 

The Killie hotel seemed to subsidise them pretty handsomely before Johnston took it away(?) so I've no reason to doubt that something similar could be successful. With all the limitations of Scottish football - shite prize money, low transfer fees/ a general difficulty holding onto talent etc. then opening up alternative revenue streams makes a lot of sense and I think is still within the realms of the hospitality umbrella. 

 

 

 

[SUTOL]

2 hours ago, The Maroon Pound said:

If the club spent a £million to convert the top level into a hotel with added running costs, staff, power, maintenance, etc How long would it take to make a profit from this area? 

 

It won't cost £1million to fit out a dozen or so rooms in an existing modern shell. 

 

The figures posted by @JimmyCant suggest it would make a profit in year one. 

 

 

[jambodan1998]

I have heard it’s around £350k-£500k to do the refurbishment 

[Sooks]

3 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

Is that the only kind of night club there is in your head ?

Well if you are in that industry I am sure you will obviously know better but I would expect conferencing events and rental for events and parties without having to join a club would make more money in a city with the largest international arts festival in the world than a destination club

[JimmyCant]

1 hour ago, OTT said:

 

What about during the festival? Pretty much a license to print cash there with every hotel, air bnb and dodgy let eaten up, it means tourist living space is scare. It should give us a month run to charge through the nose for it which would be just prior/first couple of weeks of the new season right? If its geared more as a 'boutique' hotel, then its going to be more up market than one of these chain hotels where they're selling on volume low quality cheap rooms. 

 

I think during the season there is an opportunity to sell it as part of a 'super supporter experience' bundle type deal for fans from further afield which would easily go for much more than £100 a night. Match day ticket, museum tour, hospitality and lunch/dinner at the Skyline. I think you could charge a lot more for that. Could even throw in a meet and greet with some of the players etc.

 

I think your scepticism is warranted because any new thing should be scrutinised but there is definitely huge upside and a good chance to take advantage of the tourist market within Edinburgh. 

 

The Killie hotel seemed to subsidise them pretty handsomely before Johnston took it away(?) so I've no reason to doubt that something similar could be successful. With all the limitations of Scottish football - shite prize money, low transfer fees/ a general difficulty holding onto talent etc. then opening up alternative revenue streams makes a lot of sense and I think is still within the realms of the hospitality umbrella. 

 

 

 

The Edinburgh tourist season runs from May to September. You’ll get close to 100% occupancy in a small boutique hotel and in August you can charge top dollar. Where hotels make or break though is between October and April when the occupancies go sharply down apart from event weekends like new year, rugby etc etc. midweek November through to March you will sit empty unless your price is highly competitive and you make yourself busy for next to no revenue when you deduct costs. 
 

Id be sceptical about the prospects of a small boutique hotel which is in a run down area with not much going for it apart from Hearts and Murrayfield and it’s not city centre. City centre in hotel terms means you fall out of bed into Princes Street or the High Street

[Sooks]

What has been our festival and fringe presence so far actually The Scarf and the concert on the park because it seems to me that a building as close to the city centre as ours with a variety of different sized rooms and bars and restaurants could do very well for it self with a small amount of rooms tossed in and that’s before you look at conferences

[JimmyCant]

4 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Well if you are in that industry I am sure you will obviously know better but I would expect conferencing events and rental for events and parties without having to join a club would make more money in a city with the largest international arts festival in the world than a destination club

The festival lasts for 4 weeks mate. It’s not the holy grail it used to be, in fact it might take 10 years to recover to what it was after the pandemic as so many venues have been burned out of existence 

[Sooks]

2 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

The Edinburgh tourist season runs from May to September. You’ll get close to 100% occupancy in a small boutique hotel and in August you can charge top dollar. Where hotels make or break though is between October and April when the occupancies go sharply down apart from event weekends like new year, rugby etc etc. midweek November through to March you will sit empty unless your price is highly competitive and you make yourself busy for next to no revenue when you deduct costs. 
 

Id be sceptical about the prospects of a small boutique hotel which is in a run down area with not much going for it apart from Hearts and Murrayfield and it’s not city centre. City centre in hotel terms means you fall out of bed into Princes Street or the High Street

That is just the tourist seasons though the corporate side of things are still looking for venues for retreats and conferences between October and April 

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

2 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

Yes that would be a good option. ‘The Radisson Tynecastle Park’  you’d still struggle to get over £100k a year but it’s guaranteed income with no £1million initial outlay and no refurb or maintenance or staff costs and it’s long term. you would also get all the F&B from their guests, plus there are club/stand/shirt sponsorship possibilities on top of that. The big drawback being a big high end global operator probably wouldn’t even answer the phone on it for less than 50 rooms

Think that would be the best way to go, rent out the space without added risk and costs 

[JimmyCant]

1 hour ago, SUTOL said:

 

It won't cost £1million to fit out a dozen or so rooms in an existing modern shell. 

 

The figures posted by @JimmyCant suggest it would make a profit in year one. 

 

 

A trading profit yes, but you’ve shelled out whatever it was (£1million seems very high to me when the blank canvas is already there) and you’re not really profiting as a business until that initial outlay is recovered from revenue

[john thomas]

6 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

The Edinburgh tourist season runs from May to September. You’ll get close to 100% occupancy in a small boutique hotel and in August you can charge top dollar. Where hotels make or break though is between October and April when the occupancies go sharply down apart from event weekends like new year, rugby etc etc. midweek November through to March you will sit empty unless your price is highly competitive and you make yourself busy for next to no revenue when you deduct costs. 
 

Id be sceptical about the prospects of a small boutique hotel which is in a run down area with not much going for it apart from Hearts and Murrayfield and it’s not city centre. City centre in hotel terms means you fall out of bed into Princes Street or the High Street

From your posts I assume you are in the hotel industry .

My limited experience is with Airbnb lets and I have over 90% occupancy .

 

[JimmyCant]

4 minutes ago, Sooks said:

That is just the tourist seasons though the corporate side of things are still looking for venues for retreats and conferences between October and April 

In an increasingly highly competitive cut throat market where the big boys can afford to take a hit and beat you for price 

[Sooks]

1 minute ago, JimmyCant said:

The festival lasts for 4 weeks mate. It’s not the holy grail it used to be, in fact it might take 10 years to recover to what it was after the pandemic as so many venues have been burned out of existence 

Yes it is a short but profitable period but we have a venue with a reasonable range of different sized function rooms a restaurant and a handful of bars so with ten rooms tossed in we could cater for a pretty wide range of events from private parties through fringe venues and in to corporate and industry conferences and retreats 

[JimmyCant]

Just now, john thomas said:

From your posts I assume you are in the hotel industry .

My limited experience is with Airbnb lets and I have over 90% occupancy .

 

I WAS until the pandemic killed the industry and I was made redundant

[JimmyCant]

1 minute ago, Sooks said:

Yes it is a short but profitable period but we have a venue with a reasonable range of different sized function rooms a restaurant and a handful of bars so with ten rooms tossed in we could cater for a pretty wide range of events from private parties through fringe venues and in to corporate and industry conferences and retreats 

I certainly agree that having on-site bedrooms helps you win wedding and conference business and ideally your looking to get that off peak because you know you’ll fill with straight tourist business 5 months of the year

[Sooks]

1 minute ago, JimmyCant said:

In an increasingly highly competitive cut throat market where the big boys can afford to take a hit and beat you for price 

I would believe that definitely but that would be the benefit of having a range of potential uses for our spaces surely

[Sooks]

Just now, JimmyCant said:

I certainly agree that having on-site bedrooms helps you win wedding and conference business and ideally your looking to get that off peak because you know you’ll fill with straight tourist business 5 months of the year

That is the sort of thing I had in my mind keep the use as open and varied as possible and try and keep it filled with different purposes all year round and if it does not turn out to be worth it for a limited profit then reasses

[JimmyCant]

11 minutes ago, Sooks said:

I would believe that definitely but that would be the benefit of having a range of potential uses for our spaces surely

Well then it depends on how aggressive and savvy your sales and marketing team is. Good people and good tools cost big money and that comes right out of revenue. A top notch revenue manager who can do sales and marketing will cost you £35k a year (that’s what I was on and I didn’t do sales and marketing, just revenue management) and that before you buy reservation software and optimise your website and pay agents commissions. It’s relatively easy to be busy. It’s a lot harder to be both busy and profitable 

 

If I was Hearts I’d be having a close analysis of what event business we are already doing without bedrooms and how much more we’d do if we had bedrooms

Edited March 27, 2022 by JimmyCant

[Sooks]

1 minute ago, JimmyCant said:

Well then it depends on how aggressive and savvy your sales and marketing team is. Good people and good tools cost big money and that comes right out of revenue. It’s easy to be busy. It’s a lot harder to be both busy and profitable 

Makes sense so let us hope that Budge and Anderson have the required acumen and nous I assume they will appoint a hospitality and leisure manager with a fair bit of experience 

[kila]

22 minutes ago, Sooks said:

What has been our festival and fringe presence so far actually The Scarf and the concert on the park because it seems to me that a building as close to the city centre as ours with a variety of different sized rooms and bars and restaurants could do very well for it self with a small amount of rooms tossed in and that’s before you look at conferences

A War of Two Halves and then there was the history of women’s football too (forget title). 

[Sooks]

5 minutes ago, kila said:

A War of Two Halves and then there was the history of women’s football too (forget title). 

Seems like we have been thinking about this for a while and seeing where we could take a wee slice for ourselves 

[Rudolf]

25 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Makes sense so let us hope that Budge and Anderson have the required acumen and nous I assume they will appoint a hospitality and leisure manager with a fair bit of experience 

Get yer CV in Jimmy. 

[JimmyCant]

16 minutes ago, Rudolf said:

Get yer CV in Jimmy. 

I’ve retired from working life now but I dare say a comeback for a Labour of love would turn my head 😀

[Rudolf]

9 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

I’ve retired from working life now but I dare say a comeback for a Labour of love would turn my head 😀

👍

[Famous 1874]

Very interesting. Any visuals drawn up? 

[Thomaso]

2 hours ago, Sooks said:

Makes sense so let us hope that Budge and Anderson have the required acumen and nous I assume they will appoint a hospitality and leisure manager with a fair bit of experience 

Budge and Anderson have proven in business they have oodles of acumen and nous.

[yorkshire jambo]

I wonder if the cost of the hotel could be written of against tax ?

if we made a profit last year it’s feasible if it’s part of the stadium’s development the cost would come of any taxable profit !

[Sooks]

38 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

Budge and Anderson have proven in business they have oodles of acumen and nous.

Yes I very much think they will have and have said as much a few times further up and in the previous pages 

[Francis Albert]

3 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

The Edinburgh tourist season runs from May to September. You’ll get close to 100% occupancy in a small boutique hotel and in August you can charge top dollar. Where hotels make or break though is between October and April when the occupancies go sharply down apart from event weekends like new year, rugby etc etc. midweek November through to March you will sit empty unless your price is highly competitive and you make yourself busy for next to no revenue when you deduct costs. 
 

Id be sceptical about the prospects of a small boutique hotel which is in a run down area with not much going for it apart from Hearts and Murrayfield and it’s not city centre. City centre in hotel terms means you fall out of bed into Princes Street or the High Street

If I booked a hotel claiming to be in the city centre and turned up in a side street off Gorgie Road I would not be overjoyed.

Hope it goes well but some scepticism is justified. 

[Sooks]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

If I booked a hotel claiming to be in the city centre and turned up in a side street off Gorgie Road I would not be overjoyed.

Hope it goes well but some scepticism is justified. 

You seem determined to make Gorgie Road nearer or further away from the city centre depending on who you are replying to at any point you said earlier that you walk there from the city centre and could not understand why people younger than you waited on a bus

 

Tynecastle is the length of Dalry road and a few hundred metres away from Haymarket Station it might not be classed as the City Centre but it is literally a ten five minute bus journey from Princes Street

[Sooks]

Just now, Sooks said:

You seem determined to make Gorgie Road nearer or further away from the city centre depending on who you are replying to at any point you said earlier that you walk there from the city centre and could not understand why people younger than you waited on a bus

 

Tynecastle is the length of Dalry road and a few hundred metres away from Haymarket Station it might not be classed as the City Centre but it is literally a ten five minute bus journey from Princes Street

ten minute bus journey

[Wee Mikey]

10 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

If I booked a hotel claiming to be in the city centre and turned up in a side street off Gorgie Road I would not be overjoyed.

Hope it goes well but some scepticism is justified. 

 

If you booked a hotel without firstly finding out its location, then you'd deserve to sit on the bus for 10 minutes wearing a dunces cap. 😉

[Francis Albert]

2 minutes ago, Sooks said:

You seem determined to make Gorgie Road nearer or further away from the city centre depending on who you are replying to at any point you said earlier that you walk there from the city centre and could not understand why people younger than you waited on a bus

 

Tynecastle is the length of Dalry road and a few hundred metres away from Haymarket Station it might not be classed as the City Centre but it is literally a ten five minute bus journey from Princes Street

I like walking. My point was that as far as I can tell I am in a small and declining minority. And if I book a city centre hotel I don't expect to have to get a bus to the city centre.

 

[Francis Albert]

Just now, Wee Mikey said:

 

If you booked a hotel without firstly finding out its location, then you'd deserve to sit on the bus for 10 minutes wearing a dunces cap. 😉

Yes but that kind of misses the point. I would look up the location and book somewhere else.

[jr ewing]

21 minutes ago, Sooks said:

You seem determined to make Gorgie Road nearer or further away from the city centre depending on who you are replying to at any point you said earlier that you walk there from the city centre and could not understand why people younger than you waited on a bus

 

Tynecastle is the length of Dalry road and a few hundred metres away from Haymarket Station it might not be classed as the City Centre but it is literally a ten five minute bus journey from Princes Street

Less spread out than say Glasgow 😌 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

29 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

If I booked a hotel claiming to be in the city centre and turned up in a side street off Gorgie Road I would not be overjoyed.

Hope it goes well but some scepticism is justified. 

Works for RyanAir.

[Bazzas right boot]

7 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

Best case : 12 rooms at 75% occupancy 365 nights at £100 a night after VAT and servicing costs is just over £300k a year. Deduct half that for staff and maintenance and equipment and you have £150k profit, so around 6 years before it pays for itself then you have to refurbish it

 

 

Ffs. 

Yeah, because these folk won't eat or drink. 

The gp on food and drink can be around 70-80%.

 

We will already maintain the stadium, it's not a completely new job or cost to bolt that on to the hotel area. 

 

Digital technology can minimise staffing costs. 

 

If you're gonna do fag packet maths, make an effort. 

 

 

[Jamboross]

There are plenty successful hotels and guest houses (not to mention private short term rentals) in Edinburgh much further from the city centre than Tynecastle is. We may not actually be in the city centre but we're pretty damn close to it, it's a very walkable distance and there's an abundance of transport from Gorgie Road or Dalry Road for those less willing/able. 

 

Gorgie and Dalry (more so the latter) are also gentrifying at a steady pace so it's not as undesirable a place to stay as some are making out. If I was visiting a city I'd have no problem with staying in a similar area. 

 

Whether this succeeds or fails will not be down to location. 

Edited March 27, 2022 by Jamboross

[Sooks]

11 minutes ago, Jamboross said:

There are plenty successful hotels and guest houses (not to mention private short term rentals) in Edinburgh much further from the city centre than Tynecastle is. We may not actually be in the city centre but we're pretty damn close to it, it's a very walkable distance and there's an abundance of transport from Gorgie Road or Dalry Road for those less willing/able. 

 

Gorgie and Dalry (more so the latter) are also gentrifying at a steady pace so it's not as undesirable a place to stay as some are making out. If I was visiting a city I'd have no problem with staying in a similar area. 

 

Whether this succeeds or fails will not be down to location. 

Yes there is plenty choice of restaurants in Fountain Bridge and Dalry Road ranging from good quality steak houses and good Italian restaurants through to chains like Chiquitos and Pizza Hut and a fair hipster bars now too 

[Wee Mikey]

34 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Yes but that kind of misses the point. I would look up the location and book somewhere else.

 

Well, the Hampton by Hilton is touted as being in Edinburgh's West End, City Centre, and is only 0.8 miles from McLeod St. A stones throw. You're desperately looking for issues, especially given the likelyhood that people wishing to stay at Tynecastle would know fine well the location and have a 'special' reason for wishing to stay there, whether that be a football connection, or the other facilities on offer (e.g. conferencing).

 

See below:- 👇

 

16 minutes ago, Jamboross said:

There are plenty successful hotels and guest houses (not to mention private short term rentals) in Edinburgh much further from the city centre than Tynecastle is. We may not actually be in the city centre but we're pretty damn close to it, it's a very walkable distance and there's an abundance of transport from Gorgie Road or Dalry Road for those less willing/able. 

 

Gorgie and Dalry (more so the latter) are also gentrifying at a steady pace so it's not as undesirable a place to stay as some are making out. If I was visiting a city I'd have no problem with staying in a similar area. 

 

Whether this succeeds or fails will not be down to location. 

Edited March 27, 2022 by Wee Mikey

[Sooks]

1 minute ago, Sooks said:

Yes there is plenty choice of restaurants in Fountain Bridge and Dalry Road ranging from good quality steak houses and good Italian restaurants through to chains like Chiquitos and Pizza Hut and a fair hipster bars now too 

fair few 

[corryjambo]

45 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

If I booked a hotel claiming to be in the city centre and turned up in a side street off Gorgie Road I would not be overjoyed.

Hope it goes well but some scepticism is justified. 

You better not book the Leonardo Murrayfield if you are going to the rugby because you will be surprised when you find it is in the middle of Clermiston.  Strangely enough when I book a hotel one of the first things I check is the location. 

[Bazzas right boot]

52 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

If I booked a hotel claiming to be in the city centre and turned up in a side street off Gorgie Road I would not be overjoyed.

Hope it goes well but some scepticism is justified. 

 

 

If you book a hotel without checking its location you deserve to not be over joyed. 

 

What a stupid thing to suggest. 

 

It's not even open yet and here you are making up ridiculous scenerios already - just to moan. 

 

Unbelievable, yet funny in equal measure. 

 

 

 

[Francis Albert]

10 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

 

If you book a hotel without checking its location you deserve to not be over joyed. 

 

What a stupid thing to suggest. 

 

It's not even open yet and here you are making up ridiculous scenerios already - just to moan. 

 

Unbelievable, yet funny in equal measure. 

 

 

 

Just expressing an opinion. I have no issue with anyone who has expressed a different opinion. I repeat time will tell. I await the annual report that tells me how much money the boutique hotel makes. And for that matter how much the Skyline Restaurant is making

 

 

 

 

[davemclaren]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

Just expressing an opinion. I have no issue with anyone who has expressed a different opinion. I repeat time will tell. I await the annual report that tells me how much money the boutique hotel makes. And for that matter how much the Skyline Restaurant is making

 

 

 

 

Will their figures be highlighted separately. The skyline isn’t at the moment. 

[Sooks]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Just expressing an opinion. I have no issue with anyone who has expressed a different opinion. I repeat time will tell. I await the annual report that tells me how much money the boutique hotel makes. And for that matter how much the Skyline Restaurant is making

 

 

 

 

It would take someone with more dedication and patience to dry number dissecting than I could ever bring myself to do but I seem to remember something about us planning to add another million on to our turnover through non footballing income a few years ago and our turnover is much greater than it was in 2014 so I would guess it has been some what successful

[Bazzas right boot]

 

27 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Just expressing an opinion. I have no issue with anyone who has expressed a different opinion. I repeat time will tell. I await the annual report that tells me how much money the boutique hotel makes. And for that matter how much the Skyline Restaurant is making

 

 

 

 

 

Whatever floats your boat.

 

[Francis Albert]

24 minutes ago, Sooks said:

It would take someone with more dedication and patience to dry number dissecting than I could ever bring myself to do but I seem to remember something about us planning to add another million on to our turnover through non footballing income a few years ago and our turnover is much greater than it was in 2014 so I would guess it has been some what successful

Increased turnover in itself doesn't mean much. The Skyline Restaurant for example will have increased our turnover. Whether it is profitable is another matter.