Russia Invades Ukraine

[graygo]

Some Freudian slip from a journalist to the NATO gadgie asking if they have an anti-Hitler plan in place before correcting herself and saying anti-Putin. 😄

[Ray Gin]

**** waking up to this 

 

 

 

 

[Martin_T]

Where do we draw the line militarily? If he invades the Baltic States (who are EU and NATO members) do we fight back then? 

 

It really is pretty scary and hopefully diplomacy can stop this escalating into another global war.

[Greenbank2]

I'm the OP and I never thought that it would come to this. I was wrong.

 

Let's make no mistake, and I am pointing to those advocating a military response. Even Biden says "any American (NATO) troops firing on Russian troops is WW3" I'm not denying anyone's right to advocate for a military response, but if you do, that's what you are asking for. To me Putin is a rabid dog who has been cornered. And the West through the expansion of NATO has done this. As an earlier post said, if the point of NATO was to stop the advance of communism, why does it still exist? Putin is wrong and needs to be taken out, but the west has spent years poking the bear.

 

There is no good way out of this. Even a ceasefire with Russia annexing all of Ukraine will leave a bad smell that will linger for a long time. What's at the core of this is the "West's" fixation that their way is the one right way. Apart from always needing a bogey man to create fear in the population that their "freedom" is at risk (and therefore line the pockets of the elite), this has resulted in the belief that we should be world police. But time and again we see  that only happens when conflict impacts the stranglehold that the elites have over our democracies, or presents a way of making money. I see in another post asking should we really stand by and watch many Ukrainians die? Well we stand by and watch many Uighurs, Rohingyas, Syrians, Kurds, Yemeni's etc and even the population of our good friends like Saudi, suppressed and slaughtered by either their own governments of that of neighboring countries and do absolutely NOTHING. And don't get me started on Africa. Why should Ukraine be different? Because it's closer? Because we have some brotherhood with that part of the world? No more so than any of these other regions/peoples.

 

I'm not saying that this is good, but that the oppressor in this case is a massive military power that has the capability to suck in many nations and start WW3 which is what will happen if we engage in a military response. Then we will see death beyond anything the world has experienced.

 

There are 3 ways of ending this. 1. Accept the situation and reinforce the existing NATO borders massively, thus "protecting" the west, but in doing so, draw a ring around NATO saying this is our sphere-of-influence do not **** with us, but outside that, knock yourself out. 2. Go to war. 3. Regime change. This can only be done by making life so unbearable for Russia's elites and enough of it's people, that they get rid of their regime.

 

But each of these options involves a huge cost to the west in terms of our own daily life and standards of living. For those old enough, this is not going to be like watching the Falklands war on TV with a daily score - how many of theirs, how many of ours. Whatever happens, watch the price of food go through the roof (Russia is the larges exporter of grain in the world), our ability to heat or homes and fuel our cars (Oil up 8.5% per barrel) pension values hammered (every stock market down dramatically) etc etc. And all this has just happened now. And we're dealing with unparalleled national debt due to covid. Meanwhile Russia has spent 8 years building up reserves to insulate itself from crippling sanctions.

 

No outcome is good, but even the least painless will hurt us big time long before it gets an acceptable result.

[Lord Montpelier]

3 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

Where do we draw the line militarily? If he invades the Baltic States (who are EU and NATO members) do we fight back then? 

 

It really is pretty scary and hopefully diplomacy can stop this escalating into another global war.

If he goes at anyone within NATO all hell breaks loose. Simple as that. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by Lord Montpelier

[Cade]

NATO have re-stated again that any attack on any NATO member will be viewed as an attack on all NATO members and trigger a joint response.

Clear as day.

 

 

[Boab]

8 minutes ago, Greenbank2 said:

I'm the OP and I never thought that it would come to this. I was wrong.

 

Let's make no mistake, and I am pointing to those advocating a military response. Even Biden says "any American (NATO) troops firing on Russian troops is WW3" I'm not denying anyone's right to advocate for a military response, but if you do, that's what you are asking for. To me Putin is a rabid dog who has been cornered. And the West through the expansion of NATO has done this. As an earlier post said, if the point of NATO was to stop the advance of communism, why does it still exist? Putin is wrong and needs to be taken out, but the west has spent years poking the bear.

 

There is no good way out of this. Even a ceasefire with Russia annexing all of Ukraine will leave a bad smell that will linger for a long time. What's at the core of this is the "West's" fixation that their way is the one right way. Apart from always needing a bogey man to create fear in the population that their "freedom" is at risk (and therefore line the pockets of the elite), this has resulted in the belief that we should be world police. But time and again we see  that only happens when conflict impacts the stranglehold that the elites have over our democracies, or presents a way of making money. I see in another post asking should we really stand by and watch many Ukrainians die? Well we stand by and watch many Uighurs, Rohingyas, Syrians, Kurds, Yemeni's etc and even the population of our good friends like Saudi, suppressed and slaughtered by either their own governments of that of neighboring countries and do absolutely NOTHING. And don't get me started on Africa. Why should Ukraine be different? Because it's closer? Because we have some brotherhood with that part of the world? No more so than any of these other regions/peoples.

 

I'm not saying that this is good, but that the oppressor in this case is a massive military power that has the capability to suck in many nations and start WW3 which is what will happen if we engage in a military response. Then we will see death beyond anything the world has experienced.

 

There are 3 ways of ending this. 1. Accept the situation and reinforce the existing NATO borders massively, thus "protecting" the west, but in doing so, draw a ring around NATO saying this is our sphere-of-influence do not **** with us, but outside that, knock yourself out. 2. Go to war. 3. Regime change. This can only be done by making life so unbearable for Russia's elites and enough of it's people, that they get rid of their regime.

 

But each of these options involves a huge cost to the west in terms of our own daily life and standards of living. For those old enough, this is not going to be like watching the Falklands war on TV with a daily score - how many of theirs, how many of ours. Whatever happens, watch the price of food go through the roof (Russia is the larges exporter of grain in the world), our ability to heat or homes and fuel our cars (Oil up 8.5% per barrel) pension values hammered (every stock market down dramatically) etc etc. And all this has just happened now. And we're dealing with unparalleled national debt due to covid. Meanwhile Russia has spent 8 years building up reserves to insulate itself from crippling sanctions.

 

No outcome is good, but even the least painless will hurt us big time long before it gets an acceptable result.

Good post.

Option 1 is how I see it going.

No NATO member will be attacked. You can take that to the bank.

Putin is drawing up new lines. Ukraine, sadly for their people, is where the line will be drawn.

[NANOJAMBO]

17 minutes ago, RobboM said:

Rees Mogg might be able to add WW3 to the list of Brexit "benefits"

"War is good, peace is bad"... I wouldn't put it past him.

Maybe one good thing that comes from the war (if any good can come from war)  is that the Tories are dumped out of office for years to come, the Russian Report (that Johnson will not release) will see the light of day and people will start to take seriously the Russian threats to UK democracy. 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

10 minutes ago, Greenbank2 said:

I'm the OP and I never thought that it would come to this. I was wrong.

 

Let's make no mistake, and I am pointing to those advocating a military response. Even Biden says "any American (NATO) troops firing on Russian troops is WW3" I'm not denying anyone's right to advocate for a military response, but if you do, that's what you are asking for. To me Putin is a rabid dog who has been cornered. And the West through the expansion of NATO has done this. As an earlier post said, if the point of NATO was to stop the advance of communism, why does it still exist? Putin is wrong and needs to be taken out, but the west has spent years poking the bear.

 

There is no good way out of this. Even a ceasefire with Russia annexing all of Ukraine will leave a bad smell that will linger for a long time. What's at the core of this is the "West's" fixation that their way is the one right way. Apart from always needing a bogey man to create fear in the population that their "freedom" is at risk (and therefore line the pockets of the elite), this has resulted in the belief that we should be world police. But time and again we see  that only happens when conflict impacts the stranglehold that the elites have over our democracies, or presents a way of making money. I see in another post asking should we really stand by and watch many Ukrainians die? Well we stand by and watch many Uighurs, Rohingyas, Syrians, Kurds, Yemeni's etc and even the population of our good friends like Saudi, suppressed and slaughtered by either their own governments of that of neighboring countries and do absolutely NOTHING. And don't get me started on Africa. Why should Ukraine be different? Because it's closer? Because we have some brotherhood with that part of the world? No more so than any of these other regions/peoples.

 

I'm not saying that this is good, but that the oppressor in this case is a massive military power that has the capability to suck in many nations and start WW3 which is what will happen if we engage in a military response. Then we will see death beyond anything the world has experienced.

 

There are 3 ways of ending this. 1. Accept the situation and reinforce the existing NATO borders massively, thus "protecting" the west, but in doing so, draw a ring around NATO saying this is our sphere-of-influence do not **** with us, but outside that, knock yourself out. 2. Go to war. 3. Regime change. This can only be done by making life so unbearable for Russia's elites and enough of it's people, that they get rid of their regime.

 

But each of these options involves a huge cost to the west in terms of our own daily life and standards of living. For those old enough, this is not going to be like watching the Falklands war on TV with a daily score - how many of theirs, how many of ours. Whatever happens, watch the price of food go through the roof (Russia is the larges exporter of grain in the world), our ability to heat or homes and fuel our cars (Oil up 8.5% per barrel) pension values hammered (every stock market down dramatically) etc etc. And all this has just happened now. And we're dealing with unparalleled national debt due to covid. Meanwhile Russia has spent 8 years building up reserves to insulate itself from crippling sanctions.

 

No outcome is good, but even the least painless will hurt us big time long before it gets an acceptable result.

Good posting .

[Jeff]

Get the feeling we are gonna leave Ukraine to it and bolster the borders around the NATO nations.

 

Poor sods

 

Edit - NATO all but confirming it

Edited February 24, 2022 by Steak

[Herbert.]

48 minutes ago, Savage Vince said:

 

Careful with the facts here. 😊

 

😁

 

 

[Mikey1874]

21 minutes ago, Greenbank2 said:

I'm the OP and I never thought that it would come to this. I was wrong.

 

Let's make no mistake, and I am pointing to those advocating a military response. Even Biden says "any American (NATO) troops firing on Russian troops is WW3" I'm not denying anyone's right to advocate for a military response, but if you do, that's what you are asking for. To me Putin is a rabid dog who has been cornered. And the West through the expansion of NATO has done this. As an earlier post said, if the point of NATO was to stop the advance of communism, why does it still exist? Putin is wrong and needs to be taken out, but the west has spent years poking the bear.

 

There is no good way out of this. Even a ceasefire with Russia annexing all of Ukraine will leave a bad smell that will linger for a long time. What's at the core of this is the "West's" fixation that their way is the one right way. Apart from always needing a bogey man to create fear in the population that their "freedom" is at risk (and therefore line the pockets of the elite), this has resulted in the belief that we should be world police. But time and again we see  that only happens when conflict impacts the stranglehold that the elites have over our democracies, or presents a way of making money. I see in another post asking should we really stand by and watch many Ukrainians die? Well we stand by and watch many Uighurs, Rohingyas, Syrians, Kurds, Yemeni's etc and even the population of our good friends like Saudi, suppressed and slaughtered by either their own governments of that of neighboring countries and do absolutely NOTHING. And don't get me started on Africa. Why should Ukraine be different? Because it's closer? Because we have some brotherhood with that part of the world? No more so than any of these other regions/peoples.

 

I'm not saying that this is good, but that the oppressor in this case is a massive military power that has the capability to suck in many nations and start WW3 which is what will happen if we engage in a military response. Then we will see death beyond anything the world has experienced.

 

There are 3 ways of ending this. 1. Accept the situation and reinforce the existing NATO borders massively, thus "protecting" the west, but in doing so, draw a ring around NATO saying this is our sphere-of-influence do not **** with us, but outside that, knock yourself out. 2. Go to war. 3. Regime change. This can only be done by making life so unbearable for Russia's elites and enough of it's people, that they get rid of their regime.

 

But each of these options involves a huge cost to the west in terms of our own daily life and standards of living. For those old enough, this is not going to be like watching the Falklands war on TV with a daily score - how many of theirs, how many of ours. Whatever happens, watch the price of food go through the roof (Russia is the larges exporter of grain in the world), our ability to heat or homes and fuel our cars (Oil up 8.5% per barrel) pension values hammered (every stock market down dramatically) etc etc. And all this has just happened now. And we're dealing with unparalleled national debt due to covid. Meanwhile Russia has spent 8 years building up reserves to insulate itself from crippling sanctions.

 

No outcome is good, but even the least painless will hurt us big time long before it gets an acceptable result.

 

Nothing about the right of the Ukrainian people to decide what they want. 

 

Another fixated with the 'West's faults'.

[Herbert.]

Just now, Steak said:

Get the feeling we are gonna leave Ukraine to it and bolster the borders around the NATO nations.

 

Poor sods

 

 

As we should. We're always getting involved in shit that isn't our concern while the home front isn't looking too great. I wish the effort and money we pour into war was spent here. We make ourselves a target. Russia doesn't give a **** about us were not a threat to them and they aren't a threat to us unless our government provokes them.

[Lone Striker]

18 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

Where do we draw the line militarily? If he invades the Baltic States (who are EU and NATO members) do we fight back then? 

 

It really is pretty scary and hopefully diplomacy can stop this escalating into another global war.

Sad to say, I can see Ukraine being sacrificed on the ground by NATO (despite their words of solidarity). The Russians seem to be  on the front foot militarily - it remains to be seen how much of a fight the Ukraine forces manage to put up.   It sounds as if things will be extremely bloody.

 

NATO's focus will turn quickly to protecting the other former Soviet countries, imo.     

[NANOJAMBO]

17 minutes ago, Greenbank2 said:

. As an earlier post said, if the point of NATO was to stop the advance of communism, why does it still exist? Putin is wrong and needs to be taken out, but the west has spent years poking the bear.

 

Did you not hear Putin's rant of a speech this week : he denies Ukraine's right to exist , he has said over the years that the independence of the buffer states achieved after 1990 was a disaster for Russia, he has been waging a non stop cyber war on the Baltic states for years in an attempt to cripple their economies. 

This man is a deranged lunatic , hell bent on restoring the old USSR. He has always thought this and the so-called provocation of NATO membership was the blue touch paper for him. 

 

And your point about NATO being to stop the advance of communism is plain wrong. Russia might no longer be a communist state but it is still a danger to European democracies and freedoms and it's still run by a tyrannical dictator.  

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Herbert said:

 

 

As we should. We're always getting involved in shit that isn't our concern while the home front isn't looking too great. I wish the effort and money we pour into war was spent here. We make ourselves a target. Russia doesn't give a **** about us were not a threat to them and they aren't a threat to us unless our government provokes them.

 

You're absolutely right about our past behaviour. It just doesn't sit right with me how this is going down. Ukraine now... Finland next? It's a slippery slope

[GBJambo]

Just now, Steak said:

 

You're absolutely right about our past behaviour. It just doesn't sit right with me how this is going down. Ukraine now... Finland next? It's a slippery slope

Yep no chance Putin is stopping at Ukraine 

[Herbert.]

 

 

Just now, GBJambo said:

Yep no chance Putin is stopping at Ukraine 

 

 

Again if Putin wanted to grab ex soviet states it would have to be 1 massive push. All he's done is give the west time to prepare.

[Footballfirst]

No Fly Zone?

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

I see Wee Nippy that can't bring herself to give up her emergency coivd powers is calling Putin an autocrat. Oh the irony

[Mikey1874]

3 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Did you not hear Putin's rant of a speech this week : he denies Ukraine's right to exist , he has said over the years that the independence of the buffer states achieved after 1990 was a disaster for Russia, he has been waging a non stop cyber war on the Baltic states for years in an attempt to cripple their economies. 

This man is a deranged lunatic , hell bent on restoring the old USSR. He has always thought this and the so-called provocation of NATO membership was the blue touch paper for him. 

 

And your point about NATO being to stop the advance of communism is plain wrong. Russia might no longer be a communist state but it is still a danger to European democracies and freedoms and it's still run by a tyrannical dictator.  

 

Corruption, lack of investment, over reliance on oil and gas, and isolating from the outside world are far more problems for Russia than Lithuania being independent. 

[Greenbank2]

5 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Did you not hear Putin's rant of a speech this week : he denies Ukraine's right to exist , he has said over the years that the independence of the buffer states achieved after 1990 was a disaster for Russia, he has been waging a non stop cyber war on the Baltic states for years in an attempt to cripple their economies. 

This man is a deranged lunatic , hell bent on restoring the old USSR. He has always thought this and the so-called provocation of NATO membership was the blue touch paper for him. 

 

And your point about NATO being to stop the advance of communism is plain wrong. Russia might no longer be a communist state but it is still a danger to European democracies and freedoms and it's still run by a tyrannical dictator.  

Agree with you. He's a megalomaniac. And clearly Russia is a threat. But the discussion to be about how to counter the threat posed by him. I think there are 3 options, but people chiming in need to think through the consequences.

[Muppetboy]

Gotta feel for boris being in power during two of the most extraordinary events in human history. 

[GBJambo]

8 minutes ago, Herbert said:

 

 

 

 

Again if Putin wanted to grab ex soviet states it would have to be 1 massive push. All he's done is give the west time to prepare.

Have they the resources to push on several fronts at the same time though? 

[joondalupjambo]

Just now, Muppetboy said:

Gotta feel for the UK population with Boris being in power during two of the most extraordinary events in human history. 

FTFY 😄😄

[Costanza]

I've just read the below quote so not sure what sanctions we could do that would readily defer Russia.

At best this is a short term win for Russia and maybe longer term if we pivot to renewable and nuclear we can harm Russis economically but that could take years.

China as well will be lapping this up.

 

Absolute scumbags. The world faces an existential threat with climate change so let's throw some genocide and impoverishment into the mix rather than sorting that out.

 

"The Kremlin could sever all gas flows to Europe – 41pc of the EU’s supply – for two years or more without running into serious financial buffers."

 

[Jeff]

Just now, GBJambo said:

Have they the resources to push on several fronts at the same time though? 

 

If he channels his inner Stalin of course he does. Fight or be killed

[Muppetboy]

1 minute ago, joondalupjambo said:

FTFY 😄😄

👍

[Jeff]

Just now, Costanza said:

I've just read the below quote so not sure what sanctions we could do that would readily defer Russia.

At best this is a short term win for Russia and maybe longer term if we pivot to renewable and nuclear we can harm Russis economically but that could take years.

China as well will be lapping this up.

 

Absolute scumbags. The world faces an existential threat with climate change so let's throw some genocide and impoverishment into the mix rather than sorting that out.

 

"The Kremlin could sever all gas flows to Europe – 41pc of the EU’s supply – for two years or more without running into serious financial buffers."

 

 

It's time for nuclear power to be utilised. There's no other option

[NANOJAMBO]

10 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

No Fly Zone?

 

Just seen some tweets saying massive air assault going on just NW of Kyiv, Russians are saying that the city of Gostomel has been taken.

They're moving in on Kyiv  and they're not far away. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

46 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

Where do we draw the line militarily? If he invades the Baltic States (who are EU and NATO members) do we fight back then? 

 

It really is pretty scary and hopefully diplomacy can stop this escalating into another global war.

 

We have to as they are in NATO. I doubt the EU would bother to assist on it's own were they not NATO members.

[ri Alban]

17 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

I see Wee Nippy that can't bring herself to give up her emergency coivd powers is calling Putin an autocrat. Oh the irony

I see you don't mention The Mooth and her wee meetings with Russians donors. Move on comrade.

[ri Alban]

What's the point of nuclear deterrent, if you don't use them to deter when required.

[The Mighty Thor]

19 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

I see Wee Nippy that can't bring herself to give up her emergency coivd powers is calling Putin an autocrat. Oh the irony

Two anti SNP posts on the same page. Give it a rest.

 

[Martin_T]

4 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

We have to as they are in NATO. I doubt the EU would bother to assist on it's own were they not NATO members.

 

Would they though? It's never really properly been tested.

 

My fear is Realpolitik comes into play and if such an invasion were to occur and such countries would be deemed not worth fighting for.

[Cade]

So, Putin wants buffer states between Russia and NATO/EU.

 

But only if they're friendly to Russia and unfriendly to the West.

That's not a buffer state, that's a Soviet-style puppet state.

 

In short, he wants them all to be like Belarus, under Russian domination.

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

What's the point of nuclear deterrent, if you don't use them to deter when required.

 

As soon as one is set off 100 come back in the other direction.

 

 

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

My fave Spanish football team, Real Politik, clearly got a bye in your decision making tournament.

 

Of course but we are really digging a hole for ourselves here and it's only getting deeper as time passes

[Unknown user]

15 minutes ago, Steak said:

 

It's time for nuclear power to be utilised. There's no other option

 

You're calling for many, many thousands of lives to be wiped out in a world changing attack that will lead to retaliation and so much more horror

[Boab]

1 minute ago, Cade said:

So, Putin wants buffer states between Russia and NATO/EU.

 

But only if they're friendly to Russia and unfriendly to the West.

That's not a buffer state, that's a Soviet-style puppet state.

 

In short, he wants them all to be like Belarus, under Russian domination.

Of course he does.

Ukraine's access to the Black Sea seems to have flew under the radar, if you'll excuse the pun, in all this. 

He won't go any further than Ukraine.

Again, tragic for the people of any country involved in outbreaks of war.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

For as long as Putin is in charge of Russia, things can never return back to the way they were before all of this.

Russia must now be made a pariah state and all that includes, until Putin is deposed.

[ri Alban]

3 minutes ago, Steak said:

 

As soon as one is set off 100 come back in the other direction.

 

 

You don't have to fire them, just show they're ready and willing. Anyway, I don't think Russia has as many as they say they do. Or they're probably older than sin.

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

 

Mad sad wokey pish why is there complete unlikables in charge of every country & clowncil these days 

Drunk on Power the effing lot of them, why should good people do there dirty work, go to war, suffer the consequences deal with the repercussions of their actions for year's to come? 

They should all just be rounded up, put in a room and to sort themselves and egos out 

Too much greed, money and selfish attitudes with these so called leaders 

Putin is just going to steam roll the former soviet states and take them all back, China will kick off next into Taiwan 

It's going to take big characters & leaders to stop this WW3

Let's be honest when we can't call Midget Gems, Midget Gems anymore so not to offend dwarfism and have to call them mini gems then the country is Donald Ducked, No offence to duck's 🦆 or anybody called Donald 

No common sense days 

[cuthy2k]

https://twitter.com/SHEKHAR66355869/status/1496817274443153410?s=20&t=6kQymGlIg45zgsDT7GSo6w

[Locky]

After the NATO statement, I literally just said to my pal that Lithuania are the nation to watch as they border Russia and Belarus.

 

Sure enough, Lithuania have just declared a state of emergency and are sending troops to defend the border. Is this perhaps a move of provocation on NATO's part?

[joondalupjambo]

12 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Just seen some tweets saying massive air assault going on just NW of Kyiv, Russians are saying that the city of Gostomel has been taken.

They're moving in on Kyiv  and they're not far away. 

One plane will get out, the one with the Ukrainian President and his family in it.  All the bravado spouting out of him at the moment asking civilians to come and get a gun and to fight for the country.  My cash is on a very fast takeover of the country and him jumping ship.  Time will tell I guess but he is currently sounding very similar to the Afghan boy who ultimately saved his own skin.  Appreciate it is a different country, and therefore situation but has been giving it hot licks now for a few days.  He even asked other countries to join the fight.  It all sounds very last ditch before it had even started.

[Spitonastranger]

33 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

I see Wee Nippy that can't bring herself to give up her emergency coivd powers is calling Putin an autocrat. Oh the irony

its all you deserve 

[Jeff]

9 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

You're calling for many, many thousands of lives to be wiped out in a world changing attack that will lead to retaliation and so much more horror

 

I never meant to use nuclear weapons. My post was regarding how we power the UK going forward. We shouldn't be relying on Russia

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, Locky said:

After the NATO statement, I literally just said to my pal that Lithuania are the nation to watch as they border Russia and Belarus.

 

Sure enough, Lithuania have just declared a state of emergency and are sending troops to defend the border. Is this perhaps a move of provocation on NATO's part?

 

Head of NATO said they were bolstering borders so no shock

[Unknown user]

Just now, Steak said:

 

I never meant to use nuclear weapons. My post was regarding how we power the UK going forward. We shouldn't be relying on Russia

Good, that's a relief!