Russia Invades Ukraine

[Cade]

Ukraine has captured Viktor Medvedchuk, the leader of the Opposition Platform For Life, the biggest opposition party in Ukraine.

He's a multi-millionaire oligarch and a personal friend of Putin (Putin is his youngest daughter's godfather)

He'd been under house arrest for over a year for funding terrorism in the Donbas but escaped a few days after the Russian invasion began.

[SwindonJambo]

4 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

There was a time Putin would pull the trigger himself, nowadays he gets his goons to do the deed.

There is no doubt he's personally taken human life as well as ordering many, many more, to be carried out by said goons. A profoundly cold blooded, extremely cruel and incorrigibly evil creature. 

[OTT]

On 11/04/2022 at 23:08, JimmyCant said:

Chemical weapons used in Mariupol today apparently. If true and verified that’s surely the red line crossed for NATO

 

Source - Newsnight BBC

If the red line means military involvement, I’m really struggling to see if there is a red line short of Russia actually attacking a NATO member. I think provided they keep the conflict just to Ukraine, the west won’t get involved in terms of boots on the ground or a no fly zone. 

[JimmyCant]

24 minutes ago, OTT said:

If the red line means military involvement, I’m really struggling to see if there is a red line short of Russia actually attacking a NATO member. I think provided they keep the conflict just to Ukraine, the west won’t get involved in terms of boots on the ground or a no fly zone. 

True. If you stand by and let them murder thousands of civilians by conventional means, killing them with chemicals isn’t going to move you much

[Cade]

Chemical weapons are pretty  much a "use as much as you want" thing and arguably always have been.

WW1 and WW2 are the obvious ones to point out.

Vietnam, Iraq, Yemen, Israel/Palestine, Syria, Egypt.......all saw regular chemical weapons use and nary a shrug from the UN.

[Cruyff]

15 minutes ago, Cade said:

Chemical weapons are pretty  much a "use as much as you want" thing and arguably always have been.

WW1 and WW2 are the obvious ones to point out.

Vietnam, Iraq, Yemen, Israel/Palestine, Syria, Egypt.......all saw regular chemical weapons use and nary a shrug from the UN.

Neither the Germans or the Allies used Chemical Weapons in WW2.

[Cruyff]

18 minutes ago, Cade said:

Chemical weapons are pretty  much a "use as much as you want" thing and arguably always have been.

WW1 and WW2 are the obvious ones to point out.

Vietnam, Iraq, Yemen, Israel/Palestine, Syria, Egypt.......all saw regular chemical weapons use and nary a shrug from the UN.

Neither the Germans or the Allies used Chemical Weapons in WW2.

 

Edit - on the battlefield.

[Pap]

I dont think at this stage of the war that Russia would risk using chemical weapons or feel the need to. I think they will get their together now, military wise. It maybe long and drawn out but i cant see anything less than a Russian victory.

[Cade]

34 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

Neither the Germans or the Allies used Chemical Weapons in WW2.

Japanese did, on a big scale.

Biological too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

 

And the Nazis did most certainly use chemical weapons in the USSR. 

 

[Pap]

Finland to decide in a couple of weeks on whether to join NATO. Was initially a few months. I reckon they are in.

[cuthy2k]

53 minutes ago, Pap said:

Finland to decide in a couple of weeks on whether to join NATO. Was initially a few months. I reckon they are in.

Lessons learned over drawing out the Ukraine membership will expedite this to weeks instead of months. NATO does not want Russian's on 2 fronts (East and North). Scandinavians and Finns are no push over either, small but capable militaries. 

[Cade]

Russia being an idiot and saying that if Finland and Sweden join NATO then it will have no choice but to "redress the balance", which essentially means invading and annexing any non-NATO nation it can reach.

 

See how fast Moldova applies for NATO now.

 

[Pap]

11 minutes ago, Cade said:

Russia being an idiot and saying that if Finland and Sweden join NATO then it will have no choice but to "redress the balance", which essentially means invading and annexing any non-NATO nation it can reach.

 

See how fast Moldova applies for NATO now.

 

 

I wonder if Moldova could sign some sort of military alalliance with the USA. Something like that. To buy time.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Pap

[Mikey1874]

 

[il Duce McTarkin]

4 hours ago, Cade said:

 

And the Nazis did most certainly use chemical weapons in the USSR. 

 

 

And on civillians after they'd locked them into specially constructed chambers.

[Mister T]

4 hours ago, Cade said:

Japanese did, on a big scale.

Biological too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

 

And the Nazis did most certainly use chemical weapons in the USSR. 

 

I've never read that the nazis used chemical weapons on any front. Where did you see this? 

[Cade]

6 minutes ago, Mister T said:

I've never read that the nazis used chemical weapons on any front. Where did you see this? 

It's on the history of chemical weapons wiki.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_chemical_warfare#Nazi_Germany

The Nazis did use chemical weapons in combat on several occasions along the Black Sea, notably in Sevastopol, where they used toxic smoke to force Russian resistance fighters out of caverns below the city, in violation of the 1925 Geneva Protocol.
The Nazis also used asphyxiating gas in the catacombs of Odessa in November 1941, following their capture of the city, and in late May 1942 during the Battle of the Kerch Peninsula in eastern Crimea.
Victor Israelyan, a Soviet ambassador, reported that the latter incident was perpetrated by the Wehrmacht's Chemical Forces and organized by a special detail of SS troops with the help of a field engineer battalion. Chemical Forces General Ochsner reported to German command in June 1942 that a chemical unit had taken part in the battle.
After the battle in mid-May 1942, roughly 3,000 Red Army soldiers and Soviet civilians not evacuated by sea were besieged in a series of caves and tunnels in the nearby Adzhimushkay quarry. After holding out for approximately three months, "poison gas was released into the tunnels, killing all but a few score of the Soviet defenders."
Thousands of those killed around Adzhimushkay were documented to have been killed by asphyxiation from gas.

In February 1943, German troops stationed in Kuban received a telegram: "Russians might have to be cleared out of the mountain range with gas."
The troops also received two wagons of toxin antidotes.

[Mister T]

28 minutes ago, Cade said:

It's on the history of chemical weapons wiki.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_chemical_warfare#Nazi_Germany

The Nazis did use chemical weapons in combat on several occasions along the Black Sea, notably in Sevastopol, where they used toxic smoke to force Russian resistance fighters out of caverns below the city, in violation of the 1925 Geneva Protocol.
The Nazis also used asphyxiating gas in the catacombs of Odessa in November 1941, following their capture of the city, and in late May 1942 during the Battle of the Kerch Peninsula in eastern Crimea.
Victor Israelyan, a Soviet ambassador, reported that the latter incident was perpetrated by the Wehrmacht's Chemical Forces and organized by a special detail of SS troops with the help of a field engineer battalion. Chemical Forces General Ochsner reported to German command in June 1942 that a chemical unit had taken part in the battle.
After the battle in mid-May 1942, roughly 3,000 Red Army soldiers and Soviet civilians not evacuated by sea were besieged in a series of caves and tunnels in the nearby Adzhimushkay quarry. After holding out for approximately three months, "poison gas was released into the tunnels, killing all but a few score of the Soviet defenders."
Thousands of those killed around Adzhimushkay were documented to have been killed by asphyxiation from gas.

In February 1943, German troops stationed in Kuban received a telegram: "Russians might have to be cleared out of the mountain range with gas."
The troops also received two wagons of toxin antidotes.

Cheers. Didn't know that. 

[dtgj]

Looks like Russia's flagship in the Black Sea, Moskva, is in a bit of trouble. All the sailors have been evacuated after the ship was seriously damaged. Russia claims a fire on board but Ukraine says they hit the ship with missiles. 

 

Conflicting reports on whether it is actually sunk or not. 

[Pap]

There is no way the world that Russia would admit to it being hit by Ukraine missiles. It would be seen as another powerful symbol for Ukraine.

 

I'd :Kevinkeegan: for it to sink.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Pap

[Pap]

On Sweden/Finland joining Nato.

 

Mr Medvedev said there would have to be an end to talk of a nuclear-free Baltic region, adding "the balance must be restored".

 

What does he mean by this?

[Mysterion]

16 minutes ago, Pap said:

On Sweden/Finland joining Nato.

 

Mr Medvedev said there would have to be an end to talk of a nuclear-free Baltic region, adding "the balance must be restored".

 

What does he mean by this?

 

Threats of missiles being placed closer to those countries whilst glossing over the fact that nuclear subs with nuclear weapons operate in the area. 

 

It's a weak hand from a weak man who is trying bully tactics now.

[Mysterion]

2 hours ago, dtgj said:

Conflicting reports on whether it is actually sunk or not. 

 

Ukraine haven't claimed it has sunk. For that reason I believe it's still afloat. 

 

Taking that ship out would be too huge a scalp not to claim.

[Konrad von Carstein]

 

[Cade]

51 minutes ago, Pap said:

On Sweden/Finland joining Nato.

 

Mr Medvedev said there would have to be an end to talk of a nuclear-free Baltic region, adding "the balance must be restored".

 

What does he mean by this?

 

What he means is invading and annexing Moldova after Ukraine and stationing Nukes in both countries.

[Mikey1874]

2 hours ago, Pap said:

On Sweden/Finland joining Nato.

 

Mr Medvedev said there would have to be an end to talk of a nuclear-free Baltic region, adding "the balance must be restored".

 

What does he mean by this?

 

2 hours ago, Mysterion said:

 

Threats of missiles being placed closer to those countries whilst glossing over the fact that nuclear subs with nuclear weapons operate in the area. 

 

It's a weak hand from a weak man who is trying bully tactics now.

 

I take on board the Moldova comment. 

 

But it doesn't mean anything. Finland joining NATO is a massive boost to the Baltic nations and they say Russia already has nuclear weapons in the region. 

 

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Mikey1874

[Cade]

"If these wee nations join the biggest, best equipped and most powerful military alliance in the world and become totally off-limits for any attacks by anybody, then I'm going to move my missiles next door"

 

"....yes, and?....."

 

 

[Mikey1874]

3 minutes ago, Cade said:

"If these wee nations join the biggest, best equipped and most powerful military alliance in the world and become totally off-limits for any attacks by anybody, then I'm going to move my missiles next door"

 

"....yes, and?....."

 

 

 

A couple more ships will sail about aimlessly. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

I wonder if the nukes Russia says they will move to the Baltic's, are the same ones that are aimed at the Baltic's already.

Besides will Sweden or Finland allows nukes to be stationed on their soil, if not then nothing has changed in that respect if they join NATO or not.

 

All this is, is empty threats from a country that knows it's best days are long behind it.

[redjambo]

2 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

 

I take on board the Moldova comment. 

 

But it doesn't mean anything. Finland joining NATO is a massive boost to the Baltic nations and they say Russia already has nuclear weapons in the region. 

 

 

Indeed. It is a hollow threat given that nukes are probably already stationed in Kaliningrad and in a sub or two in the Baltic if need be. I don't think the threat was talking about Moldova.

[Mister T]

Russian Black Sea Fleet flag ship confirmed as sunk. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61114843

 

[Jeffros Furios]

5 minutes ago, Mister T said:

Russian Black Sea Fleet flag ship confirmed as sunk. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61114843

 

[manaliveits105]

11 minutes ago, Mister T said:

Russian Black Sea Fleet flag ship confirmed as sunk. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61114843

 

Back of the nyet !

[Pap]

Stormy seas

 

Russia are embarrassing.

[Mister T]

10 minutes ago, Pap said:

Stormy seas

 

Russia are embarrassing.

And trying to make out the 510 crew were rescued. Aye right. After a fire and explosion? It'll be interesting to see what it looked like after it was hit by the rocket propelled high waves. 

[Pap]

20 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Back of the nyet !

 

[Sooperstar]

33 minutes ago, Mister T said:

Russian Black Sea Fleet flag ship confirmed as sunk. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61114843

 

 

[Mikey1874]

Ukraine gave notice yesterday when it issued this stamp relating to the soldiers on the island that told the commander of the now sunk ship to *** off early on in the war.

 

 

[Mikey1874]

Lots of analysis saying this is a big deal. Ukraine showing it has capability to take out the Russian fleet.

 

 

[redjambo]

50 minutes ago, Mister T said:

Russian Black Sea Fleet flag ship confirmed as sunk. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61114843

 

 

A potential game-changer in itself, but even more so if it can be repeated with other enemy vessels off the Ukrainian coast.

[Mikey1874]

I'm cautious about getting ahead of ourselves.

 

But there are parallels with previous events seen as national humiliations. 1904 helped lead to the Russian revolution. 

 

 

[Cade]

I guess it actually DID go feck itself.

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Cade

[Mikey1874]

Biggest loss since World War II being bigger size than the General Belgrano from 1982. 

[redjambo]

22 minutes ago, Sooperstar said:

 

 

Perhaps with its origins here (warning: loud at end).

 

 

[Mikey1874]

The scenario is, unconfirmed that Ukraine sent up one of the Turkish drones to divert the defensive systems.

 

Then used the stormy weather conditions to send the missile with range of around 60 kilometres to skim the water undetected. 

 

Missile is Ukrainian made. 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Mikey1874

[redjambo]

Just now, Mikey1874 said:

The scenario is, unconfirmed that Ukraine sent up one of the Turkish drones to divert the defensive systems.

 

Then used the stormy weather conditions to send the missile to skim the water undetected. 

 

Yeah, read that too. I'm hoping that this is not what happened to be honest. They don't want to be telling the Russians exactly how they nobbled their prize ship - the less the Russians learn the better.

[redjambo]

Just read that the ship was 60-65 nautical miles south of Odessa when it was hit. Mightily impressive take-out.

[Mikey1874]

He knows

 

 

 

[Mikey1874]

4 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Yeah, read that too. I'm hoping that this is not what happened to be honest. They don't want to be telling the Russians exactly how they nobbled their prize ship - the less the Russians learn the better.

 

Seems from the people doing analysis (I read loads earlier today) the Russians only option is to completely withdraw their fleet. 

 

It's a good question about what intelligence the Russian have. But all the Ukrainians have to do is get close enough.

 

Their weapon is already well known. 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Mikey1874

[Cade]

Ukraine still has one of those ships left over from the fall of the USSR.

Unfinished and non upgraded their ship may be but they knew exactly where and how to hit it.