Russia Invades Ukraine

[redjambo]

6 minutes ago, highlandjambo3 said:

Type?….. leopard 2’s?
 

these are bad boys:

 

 

 

Used Leopard I's. First tank not for 6 weeks though, and the rest over a 3 month period after that. And they still need to get the green light from the German government.

 

https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/germanys-rheinmetall-aims-to-supply-up-to-50-tanks-to-ukraine-newspaper

[Cade]

The Ukrainians will need training to use the Leopard Is, it's not as easy as just giving them the tanks.

And these tanks have been in storage since Leopard II entered service in 1979.

[redjambo]

13 minutes ago, Cade said:

The Ukrainians will need training to use the Leopard Is, it's not as easy as just giving them the tanks.

And these tanks have been in storage since Leopard II entered service in 1979.

 

The article I linked to above had the Rheinmetall CEO saying that Ukrainian soldiers could be trained to use the Leopard 1 within a few days if they are trained military personnel.

 

Also, unless you've read otherwise about the 1979 storage date, although the Leopard II entered service in 1979, other armies using the Leopard I have been upgrading to Leopard IIs and returning the I's to Rheinmetall, and won't have necessarily been doing this since day one, so many of the tanks won't have been in storage since then. The article mentions that the tanks would be supplied through Rheinmetall Italia, and assuming (although it is a very rough assumption indeed) that these tanks are ex-Italian army then the Italians retired their last Leopard I in 2008.

 

In saying that, these are most definitely not state of the art tanks, but hopefully they can be fitted with some nice upgrades before being handed over. Might it be too late by then for them to make a difference though?

[dobmisterdobster]

5 hours ago, Cade said:

67 million people not allowed to go out and socialise for nearly a year and a half.

170,000 grieving families that couldn't hold a funeral for their deceased loved ones.

Domestic violence and mental health crises across the nation.

Dozens of people being arrested and fined for having law-breaking parties.

 

The Queen having to sit alone at the funeral of her husband of 73 years.

 

But Boris and his chums were having wild parties in Downing St all the way through it.

Then they lied about it.

Many times.

Denied there were any parties.

Then when we found out there were, they pretended they were work events.

Then when we found out about the karaoke nights, they pretended that Boris wasn't there.

Then when we found out that Boris had been at some of these parties, he claimed to not remember.

 

Damn right people still care.

 

Partygate would have done a lot more political damage if public anger was allowed to manifest organically. He allegedly broke the draconian Covid rules that he introduced which was bad enough.

 

Instead what we got was months of hysterical whining and bellyaching from sections of the media. Relentlessly obsessing over cake, questionnaires and fixed penalty notices only did them a disservice.

 

Acting like Boris is worse than Prince Andrew for allegedly breaking Covid rules is incredibly silly and most people just rolled their eyes at the whole thing.

[highlandjambo3]

39 minutes ago, Cade said:

The Ukrainians will need training to use the Leopard Is, it's not as easy as just giving them the tanks.

And these tanks have been in storage since Leopard II entered service in 1979.

From memory…….the leopard 2’s tech claims to be the only tank that can hit a moving target whilst it’s also moving……not sure if the leopard 1 can do this though.  The Danish army has the 2 and it’s covered with 2inch green rubber Matt for minimal thermal signature……a lot like Astro turf However, NLAW/Javelin are showing us what they can do to any armour really……. Not sure is the Russians have a top attack portable launch system though.

Edited April 11, 2022 by highlandjambo3

[Cade]

Even with upgrades, I'd have to say that Leopard I is outclassed by even the ageing (but also upgraded) T-72 line.

 

But in this case, a tank's a tank and the Ukrainians need as many as they can get.

[redjambo]

6 minutes ago, highlandjambo3 said:

From memory…….the leopard 2’s tech claims to be the only tank that can hit a moving target whilst it’s also moving……not sure if the leopard 1 can do this though.

 

As fas I can see, it depends on the version of Leopard I and which fire control system it has. The standard Leopard 2 has the EMES 15 fire control system which allows it to hit moving targets while it itself is moving over rough terrain. The Leopard I A5 has EMES 18 which was developed from EMES 15 and retrofitted. So, it appears that the A5 onwards will have this capability and I read in an article that it will be A5's that Rheinmetall will be providing. So, on the face of it, it will be useful, but bear in mind that I know nothing about military technology and amassed this info from a wee search around. Also, the huge proviso that the German government needs to give it the go-ahead, not a given.

[highlandjambo3]

8 minutes ago, Cade said:

Even with upgrades, I'd have to say that Leopard I is outclassed by even the ageing (but also upgraded) T-72 line.

 

But in this case, a tank's a tank and the Ukrainians need as many as they can get.

A point to note on Russia's armoured doctrine from the past, whilst never really tested (until now), their reliance on resupply was always an inconvenience for any local battle  and their front line commanders who just wanted “to get the job done”.  A lot of their training exercises included refuel & resupply but only at the end of their exercise on the way back to their bases.  We’ve all seen the Kremlin PR videos of vast armoured columns moving and firing at speed in open country.
 

Russias main armour design is based around a 3 man crew with an automatic gun loading system and, a main battle tank which is traditionally 10-15 tonnes lighter than most NATO tanks, their reasoning is a lighter faster tank, that can go further with less people to crew.  To resupply, Heavy armour which is designed to travel at speed on tracks in open ground needs to come out of its “comfort blanket” and head for a hard standing area (roads) and bunch up where their wheeled resupply vehicles are…………..paying lip service to resupply in training is now turning out to be a complete disaster for them and has seriously caught them out.

 

Listening to a security expert today on the Russian buildup on the East on open ground more suitable for armour appears to be on the cards for their next assault…………..I fear this is going to get extremely bad for what’s left of the Ukrainian military regardless of what supplies they are receiving.

[Mikey1874]

23 hours ago, Cade said:

Colonel Alexander Bespalov, commander of the Russian 59th Guards Tank Regiment has been killed.

 

This is the 9th high ranking Russian officer to be killed in Ukraine.

NATO estimates that up to 15,000 Russian soldiers have been killed in the 46 days of the invasion.

 

In the entire tens years of the Afghan campaign in the 1980s, Russia lost 5 generals and 15,000 troops.

 

 

 

Another one

 

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Doesn't sound that the meeting between the Austrian Chancellor and Putin went that well, Sky News quoting the Austrian Chancellor as saying that the meeting was "very direct, open and tough" adding that it was "not a friendly visit".

 

[redjambo]

9 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

Doesn't sound that the meeting between the Austrian Chancellor and Putin went that well, Sky News quoting the Austrian Chancellor as saying that the meeting was "very direct, open and tough" adding that it was "not a friendly visit".

 

 

Scrub that. Misread. I is an idiot.

Edited April 11, 2022 by redjambo

[Pap]

46 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

Doesn't sound that the meeting between the Austrian Chancellor and Putin went that well, Sky News quoting the Austrian Chancellor as saying that the meeting was "very direct, open and tough" adding that it was "not a friendly visit".

 

 

I think it went well.

[Mikey1874]

Maybe something people don't know

 

 

[Cade]

Sweden and Finland now both pondering joining NATO.

 

Seems that invading people and threatening everybody else not in NATO with invasion makes people want to join NATO.

 

Who'da thunk it, eh?

 

[Cade]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Another one

 

 

 

I'm sure I saw a stat somewhere today that stated that 20% of Russian casualties have been officers of varying levels.

Obviously most of these will be unit commanders at the squad/platoon level but that's still a staggering statistic.

[redjambo]

4 minutes ago, Cade said:

 

I'm sure I saw a stat somewhere today that stated that 20% of Russian casualties have been officers of varying levels.

Obviously most of these will be unit commanders at the squad/platoon level but that's still a staggering statistic.

 

https://www.straturka.com/20-of-russias-casualties-are-officers/

[Cade]

And, in not entirely unrelated and in no way worrying news, China has delivered 6 cargo plane loads of surface-to-air missiles to (Russian ally) Serbia.

 

[dtgj]

Looks like we're soon going to be hearing of more Russian war crimes/human rights abuses:

 

 

 

[Mikey1874]

43 minutes ago, Cade said:

 

I'm sure I saw a stat somewhere today that stated that 20% of Russian casualties have been officers of varying levels.

Obviously most of these will be unit commanders at the squad/platoon level but that's still a staggering statistic.

 

Suggests the Russian casualties are enormous. The BBC for example has done brilliantly to research this. The commanders funerals are public record. 

 

Hiding the front line casualties as much as possible. 

[New Town Loafer]

37 minutes ago, Cade said:

And, in not entirely unrelated and in no way worrying news, China has delivered 6 cargo plane loads of surface-to-air missiles to (Russian ally) Serbia.

 

The Balkans is simmering as we speak. Expect ethnic conflict there very soon.

[Mikey1874]

Watching the Reagan /Thatcher BBC documentary. 

 

Reagan tried to stop the Russian gas and oil pipelines to Europe. 

[Cade]

12 minutes ago, New Town Loafer said:

The Balkans is simmering as we speak. Expect ethnic conflict there very soon.

 

Yep, Bosnia is on the verge of flying apart.

[Pap]

I think its known that Serbia have wanted this missile system for a while. The timing of delivery is interesting though.

[Seymour M Hersh]

4 hours ago, highlandjambo3 said:

Type?….. leopard 2’s?
 

these are bad boys:

 

 

 

How long to train the Ukrainians to use something like that properly and effectively. Not like a a rifle or even NLAW type anti-tank weapon. 

[Cade]

30 minutes ago, Pap said:

I think its known that Serbia have wanted this missile system for a while. The timing of delivery is interesting though.

And I'm not sure it was necessary for 6 giant Chinese military transport planes to make the delivery.

There are many other ways of moving things around other than blowing trumpets and making a grandstand entrance.

[Mister T]

3 hours ago, dtgj said:

Looks like we're soon going to be hearing of more Russian war crimes/human rights abuses:

 

 

 

The replies are worth a read. I think the Russian embassy may have misread the room 😂

[Cade]

3 hours ago, dtgj said:

Looks like we're soon going to be hearing of more Russian war crimes/human rights abuses:

 

 

 

 

"We didn't do it!!"

 

"Do what?"

"Erm.......nothing!"

[Don Dan]

Found this amusing in a dark humorous  way. 
 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Imaman

[JimmyCant]

Chemical weapons used in Mariupol today apparently. If true and verified that’s surely the red line crossed for NATO

 

Source - Newsnight BBC

Edited April 11, 2022 by JimmyCant

[Footballfirst]

47 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

Chemical weapons used in Mariupol today apparently. If true and verified that’s surely the red line crossed for NATO

 

Source - Newsnight BBC

The claim came from the Azov regiment, so I'd be wary of jumping to conclusions at this point, or at least until it's independently verified.

 

 

[Pap]

Cant help but feel we are edging closer and closer to stepping in to this conflict. 

 

 

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

7 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

Chemical weapons used in Mariupol today apparently. If true and verified that’s surely the red line crossed for NATO

 

Source - Newsnight BBC

 

At the end of the day it wasn't in Syria for Obama (although he'd made much of the use of such weapons being a red line). 

[felix]

29 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

At the end of the day it wasn't in Syria for Obama (although he'd made much of the use of such weapons being a red line). 

 

Chemical weapons were a red line in Syria & days after the alleged attack on Douma - Israel; the UK; France and the US, launched airstrikes on govt targets.

Sadly, a familiar picture's being drawn.

[Mikey1874]

List of companies still operating in or with Russia.

 

https://som.yale.edu/story/2022/over-600-companies-have-withdrawn-russia-some-remain

[JFK-1]

This video goes into Putin's history of murder which is extensive and dates back at least 20 years. By murder I mean the "mysterious deaths" of a whole raft of opposition politicians and critics plus critical journalists.

 

With hindsight maybe we shouldn't be so surprised. What else did we expect from a KGB officer.

 

Quote

The war in Ukraine has put more scrutiny on Vladimir Putin’s long and brutal record of jailing his opposition, killings, and other atrocities, including a new arrest of a figure who has opposed Putin's leadership and, specifically, the war in Ukraine.

In this special report, MSNBC’s Ari Melber traces Putin’s record as a brutal dictator, detailing Putin’s censorship; crackdown; and a series of attacks, assassinations, and poisonings -- drawing on reporting, archival footage, and Melber's interview with a former Russian billionaire who was bankrupted, indicted, jailed and exiled by Putin.

 

The report also explores living figures who could pose a challenge to Putin, and how the courage of so many dissident Russians might inspire a stronger response to Putin abroad.

 

 

[highlandjambo3]

14 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

How long to train the Ukrainians to use something like that properly and effectively. Not like a a rifle or even NLAW type anti-tank weapon. 

Not sure but no matter how much kit the Ukrainian military get (or what’s left of them) they don’t have the luxury of time on their side, nor can they go toe to toe with Russian armour.

Edited April 12, 2022 by highlandjambo3

[Mysterion]

4 hours ago, Pap said:

Cant help but feel we are edging closer and closer to stepping in to this conflict. 

 

I don't think we will have UK/German/French (etc) soldiers ingress to Ukraine. I expect smaller states in Nato will be asked to do this (eg. Lithuania), if any of the the first 3 put troops on the ground then Russia will declare war. 

 

I think there is scope for the smaller nation troops to come in and support the North/Central parts of Ukraine to clean up, build temp road/bridges etc. This would allow Ukraine soldiers to regroup, supply lines to be improved and deal with requirements for the battle in the South/East. 

 

French/German and UK soldiers are more likely to be used to scale up defensive facilities in countries that surround Russia as well as support Finland/Sweden as it joins Nato.

 

As this war evolves over time I think Ukraine will get to create some form of Iron Dome like Israel and then scale it up to start protecting the core of the country.

 

Just some views.

[Cade]

Iron dome only intercepts rockets.

And even then it doesn't get them all. Far from it.

 

It won't stop artillery.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Cade

[redjambo]

37 minutes ago, Cade said:

Iron dome only intercepts rockets.

And even then it doesn't get them all. Far from it.

 

It won't stop artillery.

 

Iron dome is also designed to stop artillery shells.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_dome

[Australis]

Are tanks soon going to be a thing of the past. Reports this morning saying loads are stuck in the mud in Ukraine

and so many seem to have been taken out with those anti tank missiles fired from on the shoulders of the Ukrainian soldiers?

 

 

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, Mysterion said:

 

I don't think we will have UK/German/French (etc) soldiers ingress to Ukraine. I expect smaller states in Nato will be asked to do this (eg. Lithuania), if any of the the first 3 put troops on the ground then Russia will declare war. 

 

I think there is scope for the smaller nation troops to come in and support the North/Central parts of Ukraine to clean up, build temp road/bridges etc. This would allow Ukraine soldiers to regroup, supply lines to be improved and deal with requirements for the battle in the South/East. 

 

French/German and UK soldiers are more likely to be used to scale up defensive facilities in countries that surround Russia as well as support Finland/Sweden as it joins Nato.

 

As this war evolves over time I th

ink Ukraine will get to create some form of Iron Dome like Israel and then scale it up to start protecting the core of the country.

 

Just some views.

 

Totally it's unlikely UK and other allies will intervene.

 

But there is already enough foreign fighters in Ukraine. Enough to compensate in numbers though not equipment.

 

600 fighters from Belarus and more people sabotaging the Russian war machine there. For example.

 

The example also is Mariopol which effectively Russia took 6 weeks ago but is only now finally getting full control.

 

The fight for Kiev will be comparable to the biggest ever battles. 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

2 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Totally it's unlikely UK and other allies will intervene.

 

But there is already enough foreign fighters in Ukraine. Enough to compensate in numbers though not equipment.

 

600 fighters from Belarus and more people sabotaging the Russian war machine there. For example.

 

The example also is Mariopol which effectively Russia took 6 weeks ago but is only now finally getting full control.

 

The fight for Kiev will be comparable to the biggest ever battles. 

If we let Russia take Kyiv then we deserve everything we get

[Cade]

1 hour ago, Australis said:

Are tanks soon going to be a thing of the past. Reports this morning saying loads are stuck in the mud in Ukraine

and so many seem to have been taken out with those anti tank missiles fired from on the shoulders of the Ukrainian soldiers?

Tanks themselves as a weapon of war are not going obsolete.

The shitey old models that are being destroyed by the dozen in Ukraine most certainly are.

 

Yes, knights in shining armour were made obsolete by the crossbow (or, indeed, the longbow).
And yes, big gun battleships were made obsolete by aircraft carriers.

But I'm fairly sure that tanks will remain premium frontline equipment for a few more decades.

[XB52]

1 hour ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

If we let Russia take Kyiv then we deserve everything we get

There won't be any fight for Kyiv. Russia already gave that up. They are now concentrating on the East of Ukraine, which I suspect was their plan all along. 

[redjambo]

1 hour ago, XB52 said:

There won't be any fight for Kyiv. Russia already gave that up. They are now concentrating on the East of Ukraine, which I suspect was their plan all along. 

 

I beg to differ, XB52. Their plan was to reach and take over Kiev in a matter of a few days and replace the Ukrainian government with a puppet government, with special forces having killed Zelenskyy parallel to that. The parade uniforms left by the retreating/defeated Russians intended to be use for the glorious victory parade through Kyiv are just one testament to that.

[Cruyff]

1 hour ago, redjambo said:

 

I beg to differ, XB52. Their plan was to reach and take over Kiev in a matter of a few days and replace the Ukrainian government with a puppet government, with special forces having killed Zelenskyy parallel to that. The parade uniforms left by the retreating/defeated Russians intended to be use for the glorious victory parade through Kyiv are just one testament to that.

I disagree. I think it was a bum steer as well to keep Ukraines best forces in and around Kiev and away from their main or current objectives in the East and South.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Cruyff

[Cruyff]

Russia have Finland in their sights as well it seems. 

[Cade]

Can we not get a ceasefire so the UK can get rid of its Prime Minister?

 

[Sharpie]

just caught a short news flash that Putin has appointed a new commander for the troops in Ukraine. His record apparently showed his willingness to cleanse a country totally of its population, and the surmising is that is what his task will be in Ukraine. Genocide.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

9 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

This video goes into Putin's history of murder which is extensive and dates back at least 20 years. By murder I mean the "mysterious deaths" of a whole raft of opposition politicians and critics plus critical journalists.

 

With hindsight maybe we shouldn't be so surprised. What else did we expect from a KGB officer.

 

 

 

 

There was a time Putin would pull the trigger himself, nowadays he gets his goons to do the deed.