Russia Invades Ukraine

[Cruyff]

I think it's clear that Russia and Iran are in tow and are trying to overwhelm air defense. It's a simple case of supply and demand and the US won't be able to fund two conflicts. If China were to attack Taiwan for instance and the US was to play a similar role with military aid, it would be game over. 

 

The West needs to find a way to make systems of the same effectiveness but cheaper. I know the UK, BAE/Leonardo's have developed an air defense Laser that can hit a pound coin from miles away but that's secret tech that we'll no be passing on to the likes of Ukraine. 

[Cade]

Ukraine has been tackling the problem at source.

They've been hitting drone factories and air bases and this is far better and more effective than trying to shoot down each individual bomb, missile and drone as they're in the air.

If they can destroy the planes that drop the bombs/missiles and destroy the factories that produce the drones, then they won't need so much air defence.

Which is why they need to be given the longer range missiles they've been asking for and why we need to stop telling them to not attack Russian soil.

They're fighting with one hand behind their backs.

 

Luckily they've been ignoring those suggestions and have regularly been hitting factories and air bases.

They lack high speed missiles so they're developing ever more sophisticated drones to carry out these attacks; their latest long range one are converted light aircraft and can carry a serious payload, but they're relatively large and slow targets.

Not that this matters, because Russia's air defence is as leaky as a sieve.

They've got most of their kit around Moscow or in Ukraine, with the rest of the country left almost totally undefended.

Which is how the air bases and factories keep getting hit.

 

 

[Mikey1874]

10 hours ago, Cruyff said:

I think it's clear that Russia and Iran are in tow and are trying to overwhelm air defense. It's a simple case of supply and demand and the US won't be able to fund two conflicts. If China were to attack Taiwan for instance and the US was to play a similar role with military aid, it would be game over. 

 

The West needs to find a way to make systems of the same effectiveness but cheaper. I know the UK, BAE/Leonardo's have developed an air defense Laser that can hit a pound coin from miles away but that's secret tech that we'll no be passing on to the likes of Ukraine. 

 

In tow but not equal

 

 

[Mikey1874]

NATO alliance members being consistent (Israel isn't in NATO).

 

 

 

[Jim_Duncan]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

In tow but not equal

 

 

Basically, we think we can take the Iranians (who also don't fancy a genuine face-to-face with the west) while our arses go all 5p/50p when it comes to Russia because they might actually do us some damage and are unhinged enough to actually want it.

[Mikey1874]

True story though its also the hard left Democrats holding up a vote on the £60 billion US military aid.

 

 

[Malinga the Swinga]

16 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

True story though its also the hard left Democrats holding up a vote on the £60 billion US military aid.

 

 

Says it all when it is a Rabbi explaining to a member of US congress, albeit a far right Republican loony, about what's going on in Ukraine.

You do wonder how she, and others like her, manage to function in life.

[Sawdust Caesar]

Spirit in abundance

 

 

[Norm]

41 minutes ago, Sawdust Caesar said:

Spirit in abundance

 

 

But not legs...

[Cade]

Ukraine continues to hit tactical and strategic military targets.

A $100 million state of the art radar system, gone.
Another S-400 air defence battery, gone.
And they appear to have hit a major Russian helicopter base, damaging a dozen helicopters.

 

Russia continues to hit power stations, schools and hotels, all civilian targets.

[Mikey1874]

£61 billion US aid bill due to be voted on by Congress on Saturday. Will then need to go back to Senate.

 

Kerch Bridge destroyed the day after. 

[Boab]

On 16/04/2024 at 11:30, Jim_Duncan said:

Basically, we think we can take the Iranians (who also don't fancy a genuine face-to-face with the west) while our arses go all 5p/50p when it comes to Russia because they might actually do us some damage and are unhinged enough to actually want it.

Truth in this post.

The nuclear deterrent actually works in this scenario.

They can’t take the chance the wee guy might go full radge !

 

[Cade]

I don't really buy into that argument at all.

What you're really saying there is "Russia can do what it wants because they might nuke us if we speak up", which is a pish poor attitude for anyone to have, let alone Western governments.

That kind of attitude is what is going to end up in a new decades-long Cold War after Russia rebuilds the USSR by force, because we were too feart to make a stand (or to give Ukraine the tools for THEM to make the stand).

 

 

[Boab]

28 minutes ago, Cade said:

I don't really buy into that argument at all.

What you're really saying there is "Russia can do what it wants because they might nuke us if we speak up", which is a pish poor attitude for anyone to have, let alone Western governments.

That kind of attitude is what is going to end up in a new decades-long Cold War after Russia rebuilds the USSR by force, because we were too feart to make a stand (or to give Ukraine the tools for THEM to make the stand).

 

 

It’s uncomfortable but true, when you think about it. But only in the most extreme circumstances. At the start of this conflict there were hawks talking of bringing Russia to it’s knees. Dangerous and rash words. Will never happen. I’d rather a Cold War than risking a situation which would threaten us all. That doesn’t mean Ukraine defeated but if anyone thinks Russia will give up Crimea, they are seriously deluded. And the yanks and us probably know that already.

[Victorian]

The protection provided from mutually assured destruction relies on both sides sharing the calculus and perception that the other side is equally unwilling to escalate or cause a miscalculation leading to escalation.  As soon as anything causes one side to believe the possibility exists that the other side could conceivably cause an escalation,  perhaps out of recklessness or nihilism,  then the equilibrium is lost.  The doctrine is redundant.  You're really just left being quite wary of a mad ***** with nuclear weapons.

[Cade]

MAD didn't stop the USA and USSR having wars.

They just had them everywhere else by proxy for 50 years.

Without being able to face each other directly, it only made both of them interfere in other nations around the world instead, and arguably made the world a more dangerous place, not safer at all.

Most of Africa was destroyed by those proxy wars, as was Central America.

The USA and USSR were egging on various factions in various unstable nations so they could expand their sphere of influence and score a geopolitical point against the other side without giving a single solitary shite about the people of that nation.

All MAD really did was force NATO and the USSR to spend eye watering sums of money on a nuclear arms race to maintain parity which eventually bankrupted one of them.

 

As for today, Russia is very worried about Crimea.

They're building a new railway from Russia, snaking across the annexed territories and into northern Crimea just in case the bridge gets taken out properly, which is looking increasingly likely given the technological leaps the Ukrainians have been making.

But then the new railway is easily within range of Ukraine too, so feck knows how they're going to defend it.

If Crimea can be sealed off and besieged, then it's not inconceivable that it becomes a ghost town with all the civilian Russian settlers fecking off back to Russia proper.
They'd maybe try to supply it by ship, but Ukraine has already sunk a third of the Black Sea fleet.
Time will tell.

[Sawdust Caesar]

Will he do the right thing? I'll believe it when I see it.

[Mikey1874]

15 minutes ago, Sawdust Caesar said:

Will he do the right thing? I'll believe it when I see it.

 

Bill has been tabled. So just depends on the vote. 

[Homme]

2 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Bill has been tabled. So just depends on the vote. 

 

Think the vote is on Saturday.

[Mikey1874]

Russia not giving up any part of their campaign.

 

 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

4 hours ago, Sawdust Caesar said:

Will he do the right thing? I'll believe it when I see it.

 

I think like McCarthy he's just decided he wants to actually do something while Speaker rather than just play the fringe's reindeer games, and if that costs him his Speakership, so be it.

 

I have no sympathy for either of them as they very much made their own beds to lie in. FWIW Iran's drone attack on Israel is almost certainly responsible for movement on this, as the Senate won't pass anything for Israel that doesn't also include Ukraine, and the GOP has decided it can't hold out on Israel any longer.

[Cade]

"The Americans can always be trusted to do the right thing.......once all other possibilities have been exhausted"

-Attributed to Winston Churchill but unverified.

[Mikey1874]

Speaker Johnson has said consistently that he wanted the Ukraine Bill to pass. Not guaranteed it will still with the usual machinations going on. 

 

They must know Ukraine is at a crucial stage with Russia possibly being able to shift the balance towards full defeat. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

20 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

Speaker Johnson has said consistently that he wanted the Ukraine Bill to pass. Not guaranteed it will still with the usual machinations going on. 

 

They must know Ukraine is at a crucial stage with Russia possibly being able to shift the balance towards full defeat. 

 

It seems to have been the Iranian drone attack combined with some new, more urgent intelligence from Ukraine, that made Johnson push on.

 

Both bills just got over their biggest procedural hurdle. Should be downhill sledding to Biden's desk from here on out, barring unforeseen bumps, and become law by next week.

[scott herbertson]

"Jared Moskowitz, a Democratic congressman from Florida, moved an amendment to the Ukraine bill calling for (Marjorie) Taylor Greene’s office in the Cannon Building to be renamed the Neville Chamberlain room ... and asking she be appointed “Vladimir Putin’s special envoy to the US”."

 

LOL

[redjambo]

2 minutes ago, scott herbertson said:

"Jared Moskowitz, a Democratic congressman from Florida, moved an amendment to the Ukraine bill calling for (Marjorie) Taylor Greene’s office in the Cannon Building to be renamed the Neville Chamberlain room ... and asking she be appointed “Vladimir Putin’s special envoy to the US”."

 

LOL

 

[Hansel]

10 minutes ago, scott herbertson said:

"Jared Moskowitz, a Democratic congressman from Florida, moved an amendment to the Ukraine bill calling for (Marjorie) Taylor Greene’s office in the Cannon Building to be renamed the Neville Chamberlain room ... and asking she be appointed “Vladimir Putin’s special envoy to the US”."

 

LOL

 

[Cade]

A TU-22M supersonic strategic bomber was brought down 300km inside Russia a couple of days ago.

 

Russia, as usual, is claiming friendly fire.

Ukraine is claiming a new modification of S-200 anti-aircraft missiles.

Both claims are being taken with a pinch of salt.

End result is that Russia has one less platform to launch attacks on Ukraine.

Of the 400+ built since the 1970s, around 60 of these things still exist but cannot be replaced as they're Cold War relics and no longer in production.

Edited April 20 by Cade

[redjambo]

Now voting in the U.S. House on the Ukraine funding.

 

Amendments first.

 

 

[redjambo]

Showing the divisions in the Republicans on this issue, Taylor Greene's amendment to reduce all assistance to zero dollars attracted the votes of 71 of her fellow party reps. That's about a third of the Republican reps in the House.

 

Republican Cammack's amendment stripping out all assistance other than military assistance to Ukraine attracted 154 fellow Republican votes. It failed with almost unanimous Democratic support. Split party indeed.

Edited April 20 by redjambo

[redjambo]

A last-minute Republican motion to recommit the bill (I assume back to the relevant committee) has just attracted 88 Republican votes.

 

For the bill itself, more Republicans voted against than for (approx 112 vs 101 at the last count I could see). Trump still has a grip on a majority wedge of the party's reps.

 

Mike Johnson is going to have his work cut to retain his position after these votes. Prepare for more Republican infighting and chaos. Good on him, imo, to have put his admittedly shaky position on the line to get the House voting on the various appropriation bills.

Edited April 20 by redjambo

[Mikey1874]

 

[Cade]

Sanity prevails at last.

Hopefully Ukraine can stall the creeping Russian advance and cause even more mayhem behind the lines.

But this doesn't mean that the rest of the free world can relax now that the Yanks have come to their senses.

They still can't be trusted and so Europe needs to be taking a larger and more active role, especially seeing as a Ukraine defeat would mean having a belligerent Russia on it's border and looking for a new victim.

 

1.5million shells sourced by the Czechs are on their way along with the long-awaited F-16s and now more air defence and other aid.

 

[Mikey1874]

 

[Craig_]

Genuinely can't figure out the position of these Republican edgelords. I thought being a Commie was about the worst thing a person could be, so why TF would they be helping Putin? 

 

Perhaps rational thought isn't part of their skill set... 

[Mikey1874]

It's pretty much been confirmed that the UK has stopped its intelligence and some military support for Ukraine.

 

Because its been transferred to support Israel against Iran. Pretty much shows how stretched the UK forces are these days that they can't do both. And where the priorities lie. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

8 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

It's pretty much been confirmed that the UK has stopped its intelligence and some military support for Ukraine.

 

Because its been transferred to support Israel against Iran. Pretty much shows how stretched the UK forces are these days that they can't do both. And where the priorities lie. 

They’ll just do what the Yanks say.

[jimbojambo]

7 hours ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

They’ll just do what the Yanks say.

And yet the vast majority of voters feel Israel has overreacted and wouldn't approve of their taxes going to them. It makes you wonder if this is a democracy. 

[Libertarian]

On 20/04/2024 at 19:25, Cade said:

Sanity prevails at last.

Hopefully Ukraine can stall the creeping Russian advance and cause even more mayhem behind the lines.

But this doesn't mean that the rest of the free world can relax now that the Yanks have come to their senses.

They still can't be trusted and so Europe needs to be taking a larger and more active role, especially seeing as a Ukraine defeat would mean having a belligerent Russia on it's border and looking for a new victim.

 

1.5million shells sourced by the Czechs are on their way along with the long-awaited F-16s and now more air defence and other aid.

 

500,000 dead Ukrainians and growing. Civilians fleeing Ukrainian press gangs and swimming rivers to avoid Ukrainian border guards to get out of Ukraine. Millions displaced who will never return. Ukraine a failed state at the heart of Europe and which has lost its industrial base, likely to lose all of its coastline and may not exist in a few years. Because guys like you fail to face up to reality 

Edited April 22 by Libertarian

[XB52]

6 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

500,000 dead Ukrainians and growing. Civilians fleeing Ukrainian press gangs and swimming rivers to avoid Ukrainian border guards to get out of Ukraine. Millions displaced who will never return. Ukraine a failed state at the heart of Europe and which has lost its industrial base, likely to lose all of its coastline and may not exist in a few years. Because guys like you fail to face up to reality 

Bloody hell, that is one scary, ludicrous rant

[Pap]

7 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

500,000 dead Ukrainians and growing. Civilians fleeing Ukrainian press gangs and swimming rivers to avoid Ukrainian border guards to get out of Ukraine. Millions displaced who will never return. Ukraine a failed state at the heart of Europe and which has lost its industrial base, likely to lose all of its coastline and may not exist in a few years. Because guys like you fail to face up to reality 

 

I stopped reading at 500,000.

 

Stop plucking numbers out the air.

 

I'm pretty sure your now just trolling.

 

Poor show, either way.

[Ulysses]

 

[Sawdust Caesar]

The Vatniks are hurting - beautiful.

[Libertarian]

52 minutes ago, XB52 said:

Bloody hell, that is one scary, ludicrous rant

Truth hurts, doesn't it 

[Mikey1874]

I'm always pleased to see Ukrainians having left. Means this doesn't happen to them.

 

 

 

 

[Malinga the Swinga]

1 hour ago, Libertarian said:

500,000 dead Ukrainians and growing. Civilians fleeing Ukrainian press gangs and swimming rivers to avoid Ukrainian border guards to get out of Ukraine. Millions displaced who will never return. Ukraine a failed state at the heart of Europe and which has lost its industrial base, likely to lose all of its coastline and may not exist in a few years. Because guys like you fail to face up to reality 

That numbers as realistic as your independence poll in Scotland.

Do you make this pish up yourself or are you getting the numbers direct from Russia today.

Either way, your constant drivel is a source of entertainment but most definitely not worth the time it took you to write it.

[Cade]

Back in the real world....

 

Another asset of the Black Sea Fleet was hit by a Ukrainian Neptune missile in Sevastopol harbour, Crimea.

This time it was the heavy-duty submarine rescue ship "Kommuna".

This ship is the oldest active naval vessel in the world, having been laid down in 1912.

 

On the ground, the Russians continue to creep forward at the expense of hundreds of men and dozens of tanks and other vehicles every single day.

They are currently receiving close air support from ground attack jets, because Ukraine has almost run out of ammo for its air defence systems.

Russian artillery is quieter than usual, due to a lack of ammo/spare parts/non exploded artillery systems of their own.

We'll see how their operations go after the skies become a more dangerous place for Russian aircraft once again. Without decent artillery or air support, they'll get stopped far more easily.

 

In response to Belarus hosting Russian nukes again for the first time in 30 years, Poland has said it'd welcome nukes on its own territory. 99% this is just trolling Putin but they may actually mean it. Not that the Americans would take them up on the offer.

Just reminding Putin that NATO also has nukes and can play the sabre rattling game too (and play it better)

 

[XB52]

1 hour ago, Libertarian said:

Truth hurts, doesn't it 

You need help

[Class of 75]

3 hours ago, Cade said:

Back in the real world....

 

Another asset of the Black Sea Fleet was hit by a Ukrainian Neptune missile in Sevastopol harbour, Crimea.

This time it was the heavy-duty submarine rescue ship "Kommuna".

This ship is the oldest active naval vessel in the world, having been laid down in 1912.

 

On the ground, the Russians continue to creep forward at the expense of hundreds of men and dozens of tanks and other vehicles every single day.

They are currently receiving close air support from ground attack jets, because Ukraine has almost run out of ammo for its air defence systems.

Russian artillery is quieter than usual, due to a lack of ammo/spare parts/non exploded artillery systems of their own.

We'll see how their operations go after the skies become a more dangerous place for Russian aircraft once again. Without decent artillery or air support, they'll get stopped far more easily.

 

In response to Belarus hosting Russian nukes again for the first time in 30 years, Poland has said it'd welcome nukes on its own territory. 99% this is just trolling Putin but they may actually mean it. Not that the Americans would take them up on the offer.

Just reminding Putin that NATO also has nukes and can play the sabre rattling game too (and play it better)

 

Prof Michael Clarke has provided figures that these clowns are losing 900 men a day that will only increase once Ukraine receives the much needed assistance from the US.

[Ulysses]

6 hours ago, Libertarian said:

Truth hurts, doesn't it 

 

Says a fella who is obviously an entirely pain-free zone.