Russia Invades Ukraine

[WorldChampions1902]

22 hours ago, felix said:

 

(the west) playing a false flag ; they wouldn't do that.

Cade reckons NATO's open to anyone who wants to join ; don't hold out for insight.

Sweet Jesus! The West don’t do false flags!!???
 

I’ll start with the Gulf of Tonkin = Vietnam War = 58,000 US deaths.

[felix]

1 minute ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

Sweet Jesus! The West don’t do false flags!!???
 

I’ll start with the Gulf of Tonkin = Vietnam War = 58,000 US deaths.

I sould have added a smilie or this :.. 

[WorldChampions1902]

2 minutes ago, felix said:

I sould have added a smilie or this :.. 

 

2 minutes ago, felix said:

I sould have added a smilie or this :.. 

Apologies 👍

[His name is]

Putin seems to be a bit of a maniac and I'm sure alot of his regime are going along with him through fear. Could the west send in a drone and take out putin? Or would this kick off a nuclear war?

[SwindonJambo]

3 minutes ago, His name is said:

Putin seems to be a bit of a maniac and I'm sure alot of his regime are going along with him through fear. Could the west send in a drone and take out putin? Or would this kick off a nuclear war?

I don’t wish many people dead but Mr Putin is certainly one of them. If we tried and he survived the attempt then it would probably be nukes unfortunately. He’s just a bitter old sore loser who’s never got over the loss of the Soviet Era and his latest outrageous manoeuvres are an attempt to partially recreate it. What would be best is for the whole thing to go disastrously wrong for Russia and his own people turn against him, then he whips be taken out.

[Alex Kintner]

 

That’ll be war then.

[trotter]

16 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said:

 

That’ll be war then.

The only reasonable Western response is to invite Ukraine into NATO. Putin is one of those types of people that rely on showing strength = power. He is your garden variety standard bully. He doesn't/can't/won't see any Western attempt to pacify things for what it is, he will see it as weakness which he can exploit. Someone has to finally stand up to him. He's already been allowed to annex Crimea without response, now parts of a sovereign country, what next? Remember the last time someone tried that in Europe? 30-odd million people died as a direct or indirect result. 

Things are going to get messy and bloody from here on in, but if he wants a war, give him one. For all his bluster the Russian military is a shadow of it's former self. There is no longer a threat of the 3rd Guards Tank Army rolling through the Fulda Gap, let's get it on. 

Edited February 21, 2022 by trotter

[SwindonJambo]

2 minutes ago, trotter said:

The only reasonable Western response is to invite Ukraine into NATO. Putin is one of those types of people that rely on showing strength = power. He doesn't/can't/won't see any Western attempt to pacify things for what it is, he will see it as weakness which he can exploit. Someone has to finally stand up to him. He's already been allowed to annex Crimea without response, now parts of a sovereign country, what next? Remember the last time someone tried that in Europe? 30-odd million people died as a direct or indirect result. 

Things are going to get messy and bloody from here on in, but if he wants a war, give him one. For all his bluster the Russian military is a shadow of it's former self. There is no longer a threat of the 3rd Guards Tank Army rolling through the Fulda Gap, let's get it on. 

If we went down that route, America would need to be involved because though the Russian military is a shadow of the old Soviet Military, it’s still much stronger than the rest of Europe’s combined. Without America, the Russians would steam through Europe. There’s also the big question that with Putin being nearly 70 and clearly going crazy, would he use the nukes? That said, I’m against appeasing a bully.

[Der Kaiser]

Very interesting (and worrying) how this plays out as ultimately I always thought that the annexing of Crimea seemed to happen with very little blowback from Nato.

 

Put up or shut up time now.

[kingantti1874]

55 minutes ago, His name is said:

Putin seems to be a bit of a maniac and I'm sure alot of his regime are going along with him through fear. Could the west send in a drone and take out putin? Or would this kick off a nuclear war?

did you hear what he said earlier.. something along the lines of they can’t match the combined military might of the west but if it kicked off no one wins.

 

****er has lost it 

[BudgeUp]

We're looking at this from our side.

 

Throught history Russia have been dominated by armies invading from the West. They've repeatedly had to tail back their red lines and now they're at their last red line. 

 

If NATO admits Ukraine then they have no more.

 

Couple with us constantly demonising them and it just feels we've backed them into a corner.

[kingantti1874]

2 minutes ago, BudgeUp said:

We're looking at this from our side.

 

Throught history Russia have been dominated by armies invading from the West. They've repeatedly had to tail back their red lines and now they're at their last red line. 

 

If NATO admits Ukraine then they have no more.

 

Couple with us constantly demonising them and it just feels we've backed them into a corner.

Putin is a despot but i sort of agree. One way or another the Ukraine will never be part of NATO. 
 

 

[Des Lynam]

14 minutes ago, trotter said:

The only reasonable Western response is to invite Ukraine into NATO. Putin is one of those types of people that rely on showing strength = power. He is your garden variety standard bully. He doesn't/can't/won't see any Western attempt to pacify things for what it is, he will see it as weakness which he can exploit. Someone has to finally stand up to him. He's already been allowed to annex Crimea without response, now parts of a sovereign country, what next? Remember the last time someone tried that in Europe? 30-odd million people died as a direct or indirect result. 

Things are going to get messy and bloody from here on in, but if he wants a war, give him one. For all his bluster the Russian military is a shadow of it's former self. There is no longer a threat of the 3rd Guards Tank Army rolling through the Fulda Gap, let's get it on. 

 

No offence but this post is basked in simplicity. The original aim of Nato was to counter post war expansion by Russia in Europe.  The increase in Nato membership has Russia viewing this as threat to their own security.  We are playing into Putin's hands by providing him enemies purely for his own domestic reasons. It's ridiculous to think that the US would come to Ukraine's defence if attacked. I personally don't think Russia have any appetite to march on Kiev but the utter incompetence of Biden might take us there. If he wants a war, give him one....bring it on. I'm stunned you are based in the US and spoiling for a fight.  

[BudgeUp]

1 minute ago, kingantti1874 said:

Putin is a despot but i sort of agree. One way or another the Ukraine will never be part of NATO. 
 

 

 

I'm not saying he isn't but the reason he's popular is because we give him the ammo he needs.

[BudgeUp]

41 minutes ago, trotter said:

The only reasonable Western response is to invite Ukraine into NATO. 

That would be seen by Russia as antagonistic amd would basically be NATO stopping just short of declaring war during this current situation. 

[Costanza]

I'm not convinced this would put the brakes on Putin but this guy clearly knows more than me.

Perhaps Putin is confident foreign governments won't go this far as maybe they've given money to foreign political parties, who knows....

 

 

[Homme]

2 minutes ago, BudgeUp said:

 

I'm not saying he isn't but the reason he's popular is because we give him the ammo he needs.

 

If you listened to his hour long talk earlier, NATO was a footnote. 

 

His main gripes was the fall of the USSR, Lenin etc.

 

He is trying to reclaim Russia's lost territories IMO.

[kingantti1874]

10 minutes ago, BudgeUp said:

 

I'm not saying he isn't but the reason he's popular is because we give him the ammo he needs.

yeah I agree, Ukraine joining NATO is taking the piss from their perspective.Never happening

Edited February 21, 2022 by kingantti1874

[kingantti1874]

Conspiracy theory stuff but I’ve never believed Covid to be of natural origins. 
 

it was designed to weaken and distract the west, the resulting economic damage and fuel situation with China buying up the gas etc was all a prelude to this war - designs to sap our resolve.. (and it has worked).. 

 

Wouldn’t be surprised to see China make moves when everyone watching Ukraine. 

[BudgeUp]

7 minutes ago, Homme said:

 

If you listened to his hour long talk earlier, NATO was a footnote. 

 

His main gripes was the fall of the USSR, Lenin etc.

 

He is trying to reclaim Russia's lost territories IMO.

 

No, that's just basic propaganda.

[Des Lynam]

6 minutes ago, Costanza said:

I'm not convinced this would put the brakes on Putin but this guy clearly knows more than me.

Perhaps Putin is confident foreign governments won't go this far as maybe they've given money to foreign political parties, who knows....

 

 

 

 

Bill's book Red Notice is a great read and quite rightly highlights the plight of Sergei Magnitsky. However his morality crusade is hard to swallow considering he took complete advantage of post communist Russia. 

 

[Lone Striker]

2 minutes ago, Homme said:

 

If you listened to his hour long talk earlier, NATO was a footnote. 

 

His main gripes was the fall of the USSR, Lenin etc.

 

He is trying to reclaim Russia's lost territories IMO.

I agree that's his legacy aim.   He has a  foothold in eastern Ukraine with the Russian-backed rebels, and has now declared "independence"  for that area.  Just to calm things down, he's sending a "peace-keeping" military force to ensure it toes the line.       It breaks international law, but that means nothing to him.   It presents a challenge to the UN as well as NATO -  and interesting to see which countries  cave in and recognise this new "country".      

 

 

[gjcc]

I’m no wanting to share a nuclear bunker with non vaxxies.

[Homme]

7 minutes ago, BudgeUp said:

 

No, that's just basic propaganda.

 

All about opinions. 

[Mister T]

15 minutes ago, Homme said:

 

If you listened to his hour long talk earlier, NATO was a footnote. 

 

His main gripes was the fall of the USSR, Lenin etc.

 

He is trying to reclaim Russia's lost territories IMO.

It has echoes of the Rhineland and the Sudetenland. Worrying stuff. 

[Costanza]

2 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

 

 

Bill's book Red Notice is a great read and quite rightly highlights the plight of Sergei Magnitsky. However his morality crusade is hard to swallow considering he took complete advantage of post communist Russia. 

 

I'll be honest and say I don't know a great deal about him but have seen him cited a lot recently in terms of what sanctions would be effective.

Will check out that book.

[Des Lynam]

2 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

Conspiracy theory stuff but I’ve never believed Covid to be of natural origins. 
 

it was designed to weaken and distract the west, the resulting economic damage and fuel situation with China buying up the gas etc was all a prelude to this war - designs to sap our resolve.. (and it has worked).. 

 

Wouldn’t be surprised to see China make moves when everyone watching Ukraine. 

 

China make moves? They don't need to as America's war on terror has provided the needed distraction. That's why America left Afghanistan in such a shameful fashion. The top boy feels threatened hence the Indo-Pacific security alliance. 

[Pans Jambo]

Heard on the news that the Russian seperatists with the aid of the Russian “peacekeepers” were grabbing men and matching them into the Army offices to ‘sign up’ for the red army. 
 

Hell mend them! If they want a dictatorship then good luck to them!

 

Heres my prediction. USA & NATO wont do shit other than some meaningless sanctions. UK even less so! Lots of stern speeches but all wind n piss. Half of the tory party are in the Russian oligarchs back pockets and theres too much dirty Russian money sloshing about UK banks & investment houses now. A massive chunk of London is OWNED by Russian money. 
 

The 2 Ukrainian territories wont be contested. They were mostly all but Russian in name anyway. 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Pans Jambo

[BudgeUp]

1 minute ago, Mister T said:

It has echoes of the Rhineland and the Sudetenland. Worrying stuff. 

 

It was definitely up there with it.

 

2 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Heard on the news that the Russian seperatists with the aid of the Russian “peacekeepers” were grabbing men and matching them into the Army offices to ‘sign up’ for the red army. 
 

Hell mend them! If they want a dictatorship then good luck to them!

 

Heres my prediction. USA & NATO wont do shit other than some meaningless sanctions. UK even less so! Lots of stern speeches but all wind n piss. Half of the tory party are in yhe Russian oligarchs back pocket and theres too much dirty Russian money sloshing about UK banks & investment houses now. A massive chunk of London is OWNED by Russian money. 
 

The 2 Ukrainian territories wont be contested. They were mostly all but Russian in name anyway. 

 

Russia flexes and its seen as a win in Moscow. Ukraine doesn't get into NATO.

 

I can't believe I'm going to say this but under Trump that scenario would probably have played out.

 

I hope I'm wrong but Biden is seen as weak and that generally means one thing..  overcompensation.

[Pans Jambo]

2 minutes ago, BudgeUp said:

 

It was definitely up there with it.

 

 

Russia flexes and its seen as a win in Moscow. Ukraine doesn't get into NATO.

 

I can't believe I'm going to say this but under Trump that scenario would probably have played out.

 

I hope I'm wrong but Biden is seen as weak and that generally means one thing..  overcompensation.

Tell you what I could see happening, the ruskiez attacking Ukraine via a propaganda social media/cyber attack campaign designed to destabilise the public and split opinion. Think the Russians would hope for an uprising or a civil war then march in as ‘peacekeepers’ and never really leave again!

[JimmyCant]

5 hours ago, dobmisterdobster said:

 

Israel sells weapons to Russia and many other countries

You’d struggle long and hard and fruitlessly to find any confirmation of that. Israel is, as you know, backed to the hilt by the US. The US are not going to stand by and allow them to arm Russia to any great extent. I think they sold them some drones some time ago and the US were livid about it. Russia and Israel DO have mutually beneficial but informal agreements in place NOT to sell arms to potential enemies or actual enemies. EG Russia agreed not to sell arms to Iran and in return Israel agreed not to sell to the Baltic states or any former Soviet state. Whether those agreements are actually observed who knows, but no way is Israel selling major arms or tech direct to Russia in case it ends up in the wrong hands, like Hezbollah or Syria or Palestine or Lebanon or Egypt for example who buy mainly Russian weaponry.

Edited February 22, 2022 by JimmyCant

[trotter]

2 hours ago, Des Lynam said:

 

No offence but this post is basked in simplicity. The original aim of Nato was to counter post war expansion by Russia in Europe.  The increase in Nato membership has Russia viewing this as threat to their own security.  We are playing into Putin's hands by providing him enemies purely for his own domestic reasons. It's ridiculous to think that the US would come to Ukraine's defence if attacked. I personally don't think Russia have any appetite to march on Kiev but the utter incompetence of Biden might take us there. If he wants a war, give him one....bring it on. I'm stunned you are based in the US and spoiling for a fight.  

Where I live has nothing to do with my opinion on this, and that is just childish trying to portray it as such. War by it's very nature is simplistic - you don't like someone/something/feel threatened then that's what you do. Go on the offensive. By kow-towing to him AGAIN then you legitimize his way of power. If he rolls through Ukraine, what next? How many of the other ex-USSR states will he try and take? As much as we would like it to be, the world isn't made by Disney, it isn't all sunshine and rainbows. Sometimes the best defence is a good offence. Maybe my statement about going to war was too much, i'll grant you that, but the best way to defeat a bully is to stand up to them. By standing back and doing nothing we invite further aggression. Again, I refer you to the events leading up to WW2. 

[Des Lynam]

21 minutes ago, trotter said:

Where I live has nothing to do with my opinion on this, and that is just childish trying to portray it as such. War by it's very nature is simplistic - you don't like someone/something/feel threatened then that's what you do. Go on the offensive. By kow-towing to him AGAIN then you legitimize his way of power. If he rolls through Ukraine, what next? How many of the other ex-USSR states will he try and take? As much as we would like it to be, the world isn't made by Disney, it isn't all sunshine and rainbows. Sometimes the best defence is a good offence. Maybe my statement about going to war was too much, i'll grant you that, but the best way to defeat a bully is to stand up to them. By standing back and doing nothing we invite further aggression. Again, I refer you to the events leading up to WW2. 

I apologise for my comment about your location which has a bearing on your views. I think to make any relevance between the situation at the border of Ukraine and Nazi Germany is madness. You can talk about the best defence safely from the comfort of your armchair. I understand the viewpoint and psychology of those in the west towards Russia but personally I also have the same disdain for America’s role in this world. Having travelled through and spent time in Russia I’ll admit I have a soft spot for the country and it’s people. I can sympathise with the fears they have about NATO expansion. I would be utterly amazed and appalled if Russia attacked Kiev. This drama is providing various governments a wonderful distraction from domestic woes and sadly folks are lapping it up. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Des Lynam

[NANOJAMBO]

9 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

I apologise for my comment about your location which has a bearing on your views. I think to make any relevance between the situation at the border of Ukraine and Nazi Germany is madness. You can talk about the best defence safely from the comfort of your armchair. I understand the viewpoint and psychology of those in the west towards Russia but personally I also have the same disdain for America’s role in this world. Having travelled through and spent time in Russia I’ll admit I have a soft spot for the country and it’s people. I can sympathise with the fears they have about NATO expansion. I would be utterly amazed and appalled if Russia attacked Kiev. This drama is providing various governments a wonderful distraction from domestic woes and sadly folks are lapping it up. 

Still churning out the propaganda. 

[Des Lynam]

7 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Still churning out the propaganda. 

Ditto. 

[trotter]

17 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

I apologise for my comment about your location which has a bearing on your views. I think to make any relevance between the situation at the border of Ukraine and Nazi Germany is madness. You can talk about the best defence safely from the comfort of your armchair. I understand the viewpoint and psychology of those in the west towards Russia but personally I also have the same disdain for America’s role in this world. Having travelled through and spent time in Russia I’ll admit I have a soft spot for the country and it’s people. I can sympathise with the fears they have about NATO expansion. I would be utterly amazed and appalled if Russia attacked Kiev. This drama is providing various governments a wonderful distraction from domestic woes and sadly folks are lapping it up. 

Apology accepted, and thank you for it. I'm certainly not warmongering - I have several close friends who would be caught up if things went sideways. But my point about Nazi Germany is very valid. The West stood back when they annexed Austria, then went on a European tour of Warsaw, Brussels, Paris and the rest. 

 

I fully agree that America's version of foreign policy is absolute nonsense, and to be honest, I wouldn't trust them as allies as far as I could throw them. However, the fact remains that Ukraine is a sovereign nation, and if they choose to join NATO, Russia/Putin's opinion has nothing to do with it. 

 

Just for completeness, I was born in Edinburgh, grew up in Double Hedges/Howdenhall/Penicuik, then moved here 10 years ago when I was 27. I'm not a random yank spouting nonsense on a fans forum 👍

[Des Lynam]

1 minute ago, trotter said:

Apology accepted, and thank you for it. I'm certainly not warmongering - I have several close friends who would be caught up if things went sideways. But my point about Nazi Germany is very valid. The West stood back when they annexed Austria, then went on a European tour of Warsaw, Brussels, Paris and the rest. 

 

I fully agree that America's version of foreign policy is absolute nonsense, and to be honest, I wouldn't trust them as allies as far as I could throw them. However, the fact remains that Ukraine is a sovereign nation, and if they choose to join NATO, Russia/Putin's opinion has nothing to do with it. 

 

Just for completeness, I was born in Edinburgh, grew up in Double Hedges/Howdenhall/Penicuik, then moved here 10 years ago when I was 27. I'm not a random yank spouting nonsense on a fans forum 👍

I fully agree that Ukraine is a sovereign nation and should be allowed to join NATO but I also understand Russian concerns with that outcome. In my opinion those making decisions from the Kremlin have no desire to copy a Blitzkrieg through Europe ending with Russian tanks rolling up the Champs-Elysees. I think it’s grandstanding and posturing for both international and domestic audiences. 
 

 

[ri Alban]

Hello Mr Putin, if you could recognise Scotland as an independent state, that be 👍.

[ri Alban]

It's always amazing how big unions like the USA and the EU(with smaller union members) and wee twat unions like the UK always tell us how good such unions are, until Russia wants theirs back .  

 

It's the same with nukes, only the good guys(good yin) can have them for protection, but Iran and NK can't have them to protect themselves from the good guys.

Edited February 22, 2022 by ri Alban

[ri Alban]

To be serious for a minute. When Iraq invaded Kuwait, it was met by Force. Time NATO, the West, The USA or whatever met this with Force, not some wimpy sanctions. I'm quite sure if they did, his arse would collapse.

[ri Alban]

The West is going to have to show some teeth here and go in. Peacekeepers, 👍

[ri Alban]

So where in Russia needs recognised by everyone?

[Seymour M Hersh]

So is this the sum total of Brandon's "sanctions"?

 

 

[OBE]

Novichok in Salisbury, downed ML17 flight over Eastern Ukraine, Ryanair Flight FR4978 (Athens to Vilnius) redirected/hijacked to Minsk, Belarus. Now, 200k Russian (peace-keeping ⚖️) troops on Ukrainian border with operational field hospitals...WTF is Putin anticipating, an earthquake?

[Jeffros Furios]

Will the Russians occupy only the Donbass or as was discussed extend the lands to include Mariupol and maybe Kharkiv ,

At present the Ukranians won't do anything but if the Donbass region is to be increased by 2/3rd's I'd expect it to get pretty bad .

[Pans Jambo]

1 hour ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

So is this the sum total of Brandon's "sanctions"?

 

 

Putin must be shiting it now eh? 🙄

[highlandjambo3]

1 hour ago, Pans Jambo said:

Putin must be shiting it now eh? 🙄

Wait until the UK stop sending Russia paper clips.

[Greenbank2]

Make no mistake, the only thing that these "sanctions" will mean for the likes of us is a further whammy to our cost of living. Oil price hitting $100 per barrel, grain futures soaring, Nordstream 2 will be scrapped and therefore increased competition for gas.  Meanwhile energy companies get richer, arms dealers and their industry rub their hands together and Oligarchs continue to build superyachts. It is the people of Europe who will suffer while the the posh boy elites continue to play their game of Risk.

[Victorian]

The latest bout of rhetoric from Putin and his SPECTRE-esque security council audience does look particularly grim.  He's expertly muddied the waters in regard to so-called breakaway republics and Russian military operating under the guise of something else in these regions.  It does not look great for Ukraine remaining unmolested.

[Footballfirst]

The first meaningful response comes from Germany

 

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Footballfirst