Russia Invades Ukraine

[Libertarian]

5 hours ago, coconut doug said:

 

It's a good article from someone who is very well informed and experienced in diplomatic matters. That alone disqualifies him from having any contribution to make to the discusussion on here where many prefer the predictably inane commentary of the Daily Mail and the Guardian.

    Nordstream is terrifying the Americans and some of Nato. The prospect of Russia and Germany in particular having close economic and social ties and developing a mutually beneficial interdependence makes Nato and the warmongers redundant. Putin is not an idiot he can see where things are going and so can the Ukrainians who are demanding proof that Russia is about to strike but like the journalist at the white house briefings are not getting any.

 How many times do we have to go to war on a false prospectus before people begin to see a pattern? It's o.k this time though because we are not actually going to fight. What sort of ally offers that level of support though? The same one that abandoned Afghanistan and gives unflinching support to the most despicable fascistic regimes in the Middle East. 

👍

[SectionDJambo]

11 hours ago, Libertarian said:

Imagine Mexico or Canada were inviting Russian or Chinese military into threaten the USA. Do you think that the Americans would stand idly by and allow a threat like this to their national 

It does seem similar to the Cuban crisis, albeit we are told that America hasn't given the Ukrainians first strike weapons.

What I find hard to believe is the constant media claim that Putin is intending destroying Ukrainian cities by bombing and artillery. Why would he give the Russians the expensive job of rebuilding cities once they had taken over? If he killed thousands of civilians in this way, Russia could forget about being part of any world order for decades to come, and he would be forever regarded as a war criminal. Can't see the Russian people being happy about being associated with it either.

Times have changed since Hungary and Czechoslovakia. At least I hope so.

[dobmisterdobster]

13 hours ago, Libertarian said:

Imagine Mexico or Canada were inviting Russian or Chinese military into threaten the USA. Do you think that the Americans would stand idly by and allow a threat like this to their national security?

 

Imagine if the US had annexed Quebec years ago and is now threatening Canada with troops on the border.

 

Can we stop this nonsense about Russia not being aggressive. Russia is always fighting proxy wars in the Middle East and Eurasia.

[SwindonJambo]

2 hours ago, SectionDJambo said:

It does seem similar to the Cuban crisis, albeit we are told that America hasn't given the Ukrainians first strike weapons.

What I find hard to believe is the constant media claim that Putin is intending destroying Ukrainian cities by bombing and artillery. Why would he give the Russians the expensive job of rebuilding cities once they had taken over? If he killed thousands of civilians in this way, Russia could forget about being part of any world order for decades to come, and he would be forever regarded as a war criminal. Can't see the Russian people being happy about being associated with it either.

Times have changed since Hungary and Czechoslovakia. At least I hope so.

Very reasonable points. Unfortunately the times haven't changed in Putin's head, that's the trouble.

[JackLadd]

Was thinking a war will spike up the global oil price further and make Putin more cash from his main buyer China. Might be a nice earner.

[Libertarian]

Just saw on the BBC cuddly Ukrainians marching in solidarity to oppose Russia. The demonstrators were waving Ukrainian flags as well as lots of red and black flags. The BBC didn't point out that the red and black flag is the Ukrainian Nazi flag. These are our allies.

[Jeffros Furios]

4 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

Just saw on the BBC cuddly Ukrainians marching in solidarity to oppose Russia. The demonstrators were waving Ukrainian flags as well as lots of red and black flags. The BBC didn't point out that the red and black flag is the Ukrainian Nazi flag. These are our allies.

The flag is a nationalist movement who fought against pretty much everyone that wasn't  Ukranian .

Why do you peddle Russian propaganda ? 

There's plenty Russian neo nazis which you conveniently forget to mention  .

[Herbert.]

2 hours ago, dobmisterdobster said:

 

Imagine if the US had annexed Quebec years ago and is now threatening Canada with troops on the border.

 

Can we stop this nonsense about Russia not being aggressive. Russia is always fighting proxy wars in the Middle East and Eurasia.

 

 

Name a decade America or Britain hadn't been involved in a war?

 

[SwindonJambo]

54 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

Was thinking a war will spike up the global oil price further and make Putin more cash from his main buyer China. Might be a nice earner.

Probably. He certainly puts personal gain before the welfare of his people. And pretty much everything else.

[Cade]

Massing troops on a border has never historically led to invasion and is in no way an aggressive act, right boys?

 

[NANOJAMBO]

54 minutes ago, Jeffros Furios said:

The flag is a nationalist movement who fought against pretty much everyone that wasn't  Ukranian .

Why do you peddle Russian propaganda ? 

There's plenty Russian neo nazis which you conveniently forget to mention  .

100% this.

 

I'm wondering if it's Enzo in another guise.

Same MO. 

[Homme]

2 hours ago, Jeffros Furios said:

The flag is a nationalist movement who fought against pretty much everyone that wasn't  Ukranian .

Why do you peddle Russian propaganda ? 

There's plenty Russian neo nazis which you conveniently forget to mention  .

 

Mental isn't it. All countries have their right wing nuts.

 

Kickback Commies will soon see for themselves who the real enemies are and it isn't Ukraine.

[Tazio]

1 minute ago, Homme said:

 

Mental isn't it. All countries have their right wing nuts.

 

Kickback Commies will soon see for themselves who the real enemies are and it isn't Ukraine.

You’re heading home from a night at the pub and see two people starting a fight with each other. One being quite aggressive, the other less so. 
There’s always the chance both of them could be arseholes. 

[redjambo]

2 hours ago, Libertarian said:

Just saw on the BBC cuddly Ukrainians marching in solidarity to oppose Russia. The demonstrators were waving Ukrainian flags as well as lots of red and black flags. The BBC didn't point out that the red and black flag is the Ukrainian Nazi flag. These are our allies.

 

It's the UPA flag. The ultra-nationalist UPA also fought against the Nazis. They're not a particularly nice bunch, but you need to do your homework rather than spending your time merely touting pro-Russian propaganda.

[Sharpie]

Same old, same old. When wee it was Germany advancing on Poland, then North Korea advancing on South Korea, then Egypt and Israel, in between times Suez Crisis, Malaya with the bandits, then Ireland, and a few more that I have forgotten it seems to be British young men and womens fate to have to deal with conflict somewhere with someone, ten years of complete peace would I think be the first time there has been that long a span without some form of conflict in British history.

[Homme]

36 minutes ago, Tazio said:

You’re heading home from a night at the pub and see two people starting a fight with each other. One being quite aggressive, the other less so. 
There’s always the chance both of them could be arseholes. 

 

That's some simplification. 

 

[Tazio]

4 minutes ago, Homme said:

 

That's some simplification. 

 

It is. But there’s not a lot of nuance on this thread in general. 

[coconut doug]

1 hour ago, Homme said:

 

Mental isn't it. All countries have their right wing nuts.

 

Kickback Commies will soon see for themselves who the real enemies are and it isn't Ukraine.

 

Who are the Commies? You do understand that Russia is not a communist country and hasn't been one for over 30 years, don't you? 

 

 

[AlphonseCapone]

1 hour ago, redjambo said:

 

It's the UPA flag. The ultra-nationalist UPA also fought against the Nazis. They're not a particularly nice bunch, but you need to do your homework rather than spending your time merely touting pro-Russian propaganda.

 

Aye but he studied Ukraine and wandered about Kiev so. 

 

Bunch of Scots, thousands of miles away, sitting on an Internet forum spraffing pish about complex, geopolitical affairs like it is in the same ballpark as whether Robbie does or doesn't start Boyce 🤦‍♂️ 

[SwindonJambo]

If this does kick off as it looks like it will (still hopefully not), Ukrainians will cross into Poland by the tens of thousands. Poland already has a large and growing Ukrainian population of 1 million+. They fill labour shortages and integrate fairly well according to my Polish friends.

[Libertarian]

1 hour ago, redjambo said:

 

It's the UPA flag. The ultra-nationalist UPA also fought against the Nazis. They're not a particularly nice bunch, but you need to do your homework rather than spending your time merely touting pro-Russian propaganda.

[Libertarian]

1 hour ago, redjambo said:

 

It's the UPA flag. The ultra-nationalist UPA also fought against the Nazis. They're not a particularly nice bunch, but you need to do your homework rather than spending your time merely touting pro-Russian propaganda.

Every country has its crazies, however the Ukranian government have chosen to name one of the main boulevards in Kiev after Stepan Bandera responsible for the murder of 100,000 Polish, Jewish & Russian civilians. Look it up. The Polish, Israeli and Russian governments made official protests. 

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Libertarian

[il Duce McTarkin]

34 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

 

Section N?

[redjambo]

41 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

 

Every country has its extremists. You should know.

[redjambo]

52 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

Every country has its crazies, however the Ukranian government have chosen to name one of the main boulevards in Kiev after Stepan Bandera responsible for the murder of 100,000 Polish, Jewish & Russian civilians. Look it up. The Polish, Israeli and Russian governments made official protests. 

 

 

Yeah, a bad move, I agree. It was done in response to Russia invading and annexing parts of Ukraine in 2014. A childish "Na na na na na", if you like. You can understand why Ukrainian nationalism is on the rise. If only Russia would just stop meddling in Ukraine, threatening its borders, and invading its territory, perhaps the country might start to breathe in a relaxed manner and mature as a nation. Not much likelihood of that happening though.

 

Edit: I forgot to add that it was of course Kyiv City Council who renamed the boulevard from Moscow boulevard, not the Ukrainian government. It makes not a great deal of difference, but it's nice to get facts correct.

Edited February 14, 2022 by redjambo

[SwindonJambo]

1 hour ago, coconut doug said:

 

Who are the Commies? You do understand that Russia is not a communist country and hasn't been one for over 30 years, don't you? 

 

 

Not exactly a model state though, is it? It's a gangster capitalist cleptocracy run by a despot who conducts sham elections to maintain absolute power and silences/murders all oppo.

 

Our system's far from perfect here but it's still 200 times better than there!

[Libertarian]

9 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Yeah, a bad move, I agree. It was done in response to Russia invading and annexing parts of Ukraine in 2014. A childish "Na na na na na", if you like. You can understand why Ukrainian nationalism is on the rise. If only Russia would just stop meddling in Ukraine, threatening its borders, and invading its territory, perhaps the country might start to breathe in a relaxed manner and mature as a nation. Not much likelihood of that happening though.

 

Edit: I forgot to add that it was of course Kyiv City Council who renamed the boulevard from Moscow boulevard, not the Ukrainian government. It makes not a great deal of difference, but it's nice to get facts correct.

The last time I was in Crimea in 2015 the locals were still celebrating returning to Russia. Crimea was gifted to the Ukrainian republic of the USSR in the early 1950s. None of the locals were consulted at that time. However when Crimea seceded from Ukraine after an American backed coup overthrew a democratically elected president in 2014, Crimeans voted overwhelmingly to return Crimea to Russia in a referendum. Of course the west doesn't accept this but those are the facts. 

In my opinion the Ukrainian government have behaved incredibly naively,  if they were willing to declare Ukraine a neutral buffer state the Russians would accept this,  however they will not accept American bases and missiles so close to Moscow. 

[maroonlegions]

3 hours ago, Homme said:

 

Mental isn't it. All countries have their right wing nuts.

 

Kickback Commies will soon see for themselves who the real enemies are and it isn't Ukraine.

 

[jack D and coke]

44 minutes ago, Dirk McClaymore said:

 

Section N?

[maroonlegions]

20 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

Not exactly a model state though, is it? It's a gangster capitalist cleptocracy run by a despot who conducts sham elections to maintain absolute power and silences/murders all oppo.

 

Our system's far from perfect here but it's still 200 times better than there!

Sounds a bit like the UK government right now under Boris the serial liar and narcissist 

[SwindonJambo]

Just now, maroonlegions said:

Sounds a bit like the UK government right now under Boris the serial liar and narcissist 

I can't stand Boris and want him gone but I'd take him over Putin every day of the week. I agree he's a serial liar and narcissist but he doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Putin.

[The Real Maroonblood]

17 minutes ago, maroonlegions said:

Sounds a bit like the UK government right now under Boris the serial liar and narcissist 

[Homme]

2 hours ago, coconut doug said:

 

Who are the Commies? You do understand that Russia is not a communist country and hasn't been one for over 30 years, don't you? 

 

 

 

No way. Really?

[coconut doug]

22 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

Not exactly a model state though, is it? It's a gangster capitalist cleptocracy run by a despot who conducts sham elections to maintain absolute power and silences/murders all oppo.

 

Our system's far from perfect here but it's still 200 times better than there!

 

Yes, we outsource our torture and support other despots by providing them with the means to torture and repress their populations. We arm and train terrorists all over globe and back every monster from Pohl Pot to Pinochet and Suharto. We bomb and invade on false premises and our financial institutions launder money for drug dealers, organised ciminals and Russian/Ukrainian oligarchs whether they support Putin or not. That's why we survive. We produce very little of real value in the UK now.

 

   Putin has huge approval ratings and wins elections with landslides and does have some opposition. We have nearly a thousand unelected parliamentarians that comprise ex KGB operatives, thieves, fraudsters, paedophiles, arsonists and near imbeciles who cost the country a fortune and can never be removed. We have a hereditary head of state whose son is facing sex charges and a PM who is a racist, mysogynist, homophobe, plagiarist and serial liar. Our Press and democracy has been hijacked by private and often foreign interests sometimes Russian and our party of government are financed by many of the same people. The Conservatives have been infiltrated by a band of bigots happy to bribe the DUP tell obvious lies and scare stories to get their no deal Brexit over the line despite the wishes and best interests of the country and it's people.

 

  We have a Foreign secretary who doesn't know which regions are in Ukraine and which are in Russia. She doesn't know the difference between the Black sea and the Baltic sea and was described as demented by a former PM of Australia. We have a Home secretary that wanted to push refugees back into the sea and prevent the RNLI from rescuing those in danger. We had a Health secretary who circumvented normal procurement rules to pay many times over the odds for PPE that he got from firms owned by family and friends including his sister. In many cases no PPE was supplied or if it was it was not fit for purpose. He presided over the highest rate of Covid deaths in Europe but boasted about the vaccine roll out. He paid £39billion for a test and trace system that didn't work. The Chancellor created a world beating furlough scheme which was systematically looted for billions and the losses written off. I feel i've barely touched the sides but if Russia is 200 times worse than us they must be very bad. We are catching them up though, i feel sure of that.

[SwindonJambo]

10 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

Yes, we outsource our torture and support other despots by providing them with the means to torture and repress their populations. We arm and train terrorists all over globe and back every monster from Pohl Pot to Pinochet and Suharto. We bomb and invade on false premises and our financial institutions launder money for drug dealers, organised ciminals and Russian/Ukrainian oligarchs whether they support Putin or not. That's why we survive. We produce very little of real value in the UK now.

 

   Putin has huge approval ratings and wins elections with landslides and does have some opposition. We have nearly a thousand unelected parliamentarians that comprise ex KGB operatives, thieves, fraudsters, paedophiles, arsonists and near imbeciles who cost the country a fortune and can never be removed. We have a hereditary head of state whose son is facing sex charges and a PM who is a racist, mysogynist, homophobe, plagiarist and serial liar. Our Press and democracy has been hijacked by private and often foreign interests sometimes Russian and our party of government are financed by many of the same people. The Conservatives have been infiltrated by a band of bigots happy to bribe the DUP tell obvious lies and scare stories to get their no deal Brexit over the line despite the wishes and best interests of the country and it's people.

 

  We have a Foreign secretary who doesn't know which regions are in Ukraine and which are in Russia. She doesn't know the difference between the Black sea and the Baltic sea and was described as demented by a former PM of Australia. We have a Home secretary that wanted to push refugees back into the sea and prevent the RNLI from rescuing those in danger. We had a Health secretary who circumvented normal procurement rules to pay many times over the odds for PPE that he got from firms owned by family and friends including his sister. In many cases no PPE was supplied or if it was it was not fit for purpose. He presided over the highest rate of Covid deaths in Europe but boasted about the vaccine roll out. He paid £39billion for a test and trace system that didn't work. The Chancellor created a world beating furlough scheme which was systematically looted for billions and the losses written off. I feel i've barely touched the sides but if Russia is 200 times worse than us they must be very bad. We are catching them up though, i feel sure of that.

I can't stand the current UK government. But they were elected  by a free, fair and open vote, albeit against very weak oppo last time. Biased press yes but no intimidation, murders or ballot box stuffing. I agree that arms sales to the Saudis are shameful and need to stop. I'd scrap the House of Lords and the Monarchy tomorrow. An unnecessary large expense  

 

All shit but I'd take it over the Russian situation any time.

 

The World would be a much better place without Mr Putin and his like. Of that I'm in no doubt. The sooner Russia can become a proper democracy and not a kid on one, ruled by a despotic murderous bully, the better. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Didn't realise the Russians were so concerned about Kickback that they had to put their troll farms on watch here!

 

Anyway, if they do invade, I'm sure the apologists will enjoy the economic shock of food and energy prices going even higher, which will happen.

[Jeffros Furios]

26 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

Yes, we outsource our torture and support other despots by providing them with the means to torture and repress their populations. We arm and train terrorists all over globe and back every monster from Pohl Pot to Pinochet and Suharto. We bomb and invade on false premises and our financial institutions launder money for drug dealers, organised ciminals and Russian/Ukrainian oligarchs whether they support Putin or not. That's why we survive. We produce very little of real value in the UK now.

 

   Putin has huge approval ratings and wins elections with landslides and does have some opposition. We have nearly a thousand unelected parliamentarians that comprise ex KGB operatives, thieves, fraudsters, paedophiles, arsonists and near imbeciles who cost the country a fortune and can never be removed. We have a hereditary head of state whose son is facing sex charges and a PM who is a racist, mysogynist, homophobe, plagiarist and serial liar. Our Press and democracy has been hijacked by private and often foreign interests sometimes Russian and our party of government are financed by many of the same people. The Conservatives have been infiltrated by a band of bigots happy to bribe the DUP tell obvious lies and scare stories to get their no deal Brexit over the line despite the wishes and best interests of the country and it's people.

 

  We have a Foreign secretary who doesn't know which regions are in Ukraine and which are in Russia. She doesn't know the difference between the Black sea and the Baltic sea and was described as demented by a former PM of Australia. We have a Home secretary that wanted to push refugees back into the sea and prevent the RNLI from rescuing those in danger. We had a Health secretary who circumvented normal procurement rules to pay many times over the odds for PPE that he got from firms owned by family and friends including his sister. In many cases no PPE was supplied or if it was it was not fit for purpose. He presided over the highest rate of Covid deaths in Europe but boasted about the vaccine roll out. He paid £39billion for a test and trace system that didn't work. The Chancellor created a world beating furlough scheme which was systematically looted for billions and the losses written off. I feel i've barely touched the sides but if Russia is 200 times worse than us they must be very bad. We are catching them up though, i feel sure of that.

And Russia backs despots like Milosevic and Assad and butchered over  100,000 Chechens .

[The Real Maroonblood]

2 hours ago, SwindonJambo said:

I can't stand Boris and want him gone but I'd take him over Putin every day of the week. I agree he's a serial liar and narcissist but he doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Putin.

The good thing is it should be easier to get rid of Johnson.

[redjambo]

2 hours ago, Libertarian said:

The last time I was in Crimea in 2015 the locals were still celebrating returning to Russia. Crimea was gifted to the Ukrainian republic of the USSR in the early 1950s. None of the locals were consulted at that time. However when Crimea seceded from Ukraine after an American backed coup overthrew a democratically elected president in 2014, Crimeans voted overwhelmingly to return Crimea to Russia in a referendum. Of course the west doesn't accept this but those are the facts. 

In my opinion the Ukrainian government have behaved incredibly naively,  if they were willing to declare Ukraine a neutral buffer state the Russians would accept this,  however they will not accept American bases and missiles so close to Moscow. 

 

I have actually visited Crimea myself, albeit before the invasion. It was indeed a gift, but we're supposed to be living in a modern world now where you can't just invade parts of countries because you have a claim on them. You neglected to mention eastern Ukraine in the argument above too and the numbers killed and displaced due to Russian incursion there (and please don't deny that there was).

 

We actually agree on some points. The Ukrainian government have "embraced the West" far too quickly. They should not be members of NATO, well at least not in the foreseeable future, and this should have been made clear from the outset. However, there should be a door open for EU membership. Also, you make it sound as if the US actually caused the overthrow of the president, which I'm sure is your intention. They offered moral encouragement but this was certainly insufficient to cause the "revolution" or the success of it. It sounds lovely to say that they backed it, but what was there to finance? It was a people's revolution won by folk in the streets, not armies fighting each other. However, the US and the EU should most definitely have kept their noses completely out of the Euromaidan protests, imo. The Ukrainians would have been better to wait for future elections and elect a President who would more accurately reflect their wishes, using democratic processes. In the end, they moved far too fast. They were lucky that it didn't turn into all-out civil war.

[redjambo]

3 hours ago, Libertarian said:

The last time I was in Crimea in 2015 the locals were still celebrating returning to Russia. Crimea was gifted to the Ukrainian republic of the USSR in the early 1950s. None of the locals were consulted at that time. However when Crimea seceded from Ukraine after an American backed coup overthrew a democratically elected president in 2014, Crimeans voted overwhelmingly to return Crimea to Russia in a referendum. Of course the west doesn't accept this but those are the facts. 

In my opinion the Ukrainian government have behaved incredibly naively,  if they were willing to declare Ukraine a neutral buffer state the Russians would accept this,  however they will not accept American bases and missiles so close to Moscow. 

 

Out of pure interest, it doesn't do your "Russian shill" tag much harm in saying that you visited Crimea in 2015. Probably of more interest than how... why?

[SwindonJambo]

29 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

The good thing is it should be easier to get rid of Johnson.

That's one of the reasons I much "prefer" him. In a sense that it's easier to drink my own pee than eat my own poo 🤮

[Libertarian]

29 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

I have actually visited Crimea myself, albeit before the invasion. It was indeed a gift, but we're supposed to be living in a modern world now where you can't just invade parts of countries because you have a claim on them. You neglected to mention eastern Ukraine in the argument above too and the numbers killed and displaced due to Russian incursion there (and please don't deny that there was).

 

We actually agree on some points. The Ukrainian government have "embraced the West" far too quickly. They should not be members of NATO, well at least not in the foreseeable future, and this should have been made clear from the outset. However, there should be a door open for EU membership. Also, you make it sound as if the US actually caused the overthrow of the president, which I'm sure is your intention. They offered moral encouragement but this was certainly insufficient to cause the "revolution" or the success of it. It sounds lovely to say that they backed it, but what was there to finance? It was a people's revolution won by folk in the streets, not armies fighting each other. However, the US and the EU should most definitely have kept their noses completely out of the Euromaidan protests, imo. The Ukrainians would have been better to wait for future elections and elect a President who would more accurately reflect their wishes, using democratic processes. In the end, they moved far too fast. They were lucky that it didn't turn into all-out civil war.

14,000 dead in the Donbass suggests to me that there is already a civil war 

[redjambo]

4 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

14,000 dead in the Donbass suggests to me that there is already a civil war 

 

You obviously missed the word "all-out". I try to use my words carefully and intentionally.

 

I would be really interested to find out why you have so much of a blatant pro-Russian bias in all this. Is it your background? Your politics? Your employment? It doesn't seem very rational and balanced, to be entirely honest.

[The Real Maroonblood]

27 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

That's one of the reasons I much "prefer" him. In a sense that it's easier to drink my own pee than eat my own poo 🤮

👍

[Libertarian]

26 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Out of pure interest, it doesn't do your "Russian shill" tag much harm in saying that you visited Crimea in 2015. Probably of more interest than how... why?

I have been a few times. Have stayed in Y'Evpatoria which has wonderful beaches and have visited Sevastopol,  Yalta including Livadia Palace. Got drunk over a meal sat out under a grapevine with some Russian friends and was asked to recite Burns as my Russian friends wanted to hear Burns recited by a Scot.

[Libertarian]

4 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

You obviously missed the word "all-out". I try to use my words carefully and intentionally.

 

I would be really interested to find out why you have so much of a blatant pro-Russian bias in all this. Is it your background? Your politics? Your employment? It doesn't seem very rational and balanced, to be entirely honest.

I studied post Communism in St Petersburg and Moscow. Then while there fell in love with a Russian lassie. Twenty years later I'm still with her. She's far too good for me 

[redjambo]

14 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

14,000 dead in the Donbass suggests to me that there is already a civil war 

 

Of course it is interesting that although there are several other Russian majority-speaking areas in Ukraine, such as Odessa, it was an area directly adjoining Ukraine's neighbour to the East that has seen the most conflict. I'm sure that is a pure coincidence, and that there is no way that said neighbour stirred and materially aided that conflict.

[redjambo]

2 minutes ago, Libertarian said:

I studied post Communism in St Petersburg and Moscow. Then while there fell in love with a Russian lassie. Twenty years later I'm still with her. She's far too good for me 

 

Ok. That explains a lot. Thanks. I have to say that Russia is one of the very few countries in Europe I've never visited (unless my visit to Crimea retroactively counts), and I'd love to visit St Petersburg in particular. The closest I've got is standing at the Russian border in Norway. I also still have friends from my visit to Transnistria who ended up studying and staying in Russia (as is commonly done). However, as much as I would like to visit the country, I also have friends from Ukraine and Georgia, and am utterly against Russia's aggression in invading other countries around them. I sincerely hope that one day Russia will just calm the feck down. If it worked to its strengths and stopped with its oppressive tactics, both internally and externally, it could be a cracker of a country.

[coconut doug]

2 hours ago, SwindonJambo said:

I can't stand the current UK government. But they were elected  by a free, fair and open vote, albeit against very weak oppo last time. Biased press yes but no intimidation, murders or ballot box stuffing. I agree that arms sales to the Saudis are shameful and need to stop. I'd scrap the House of Lords and the Monarchy tomorrow. An unnecessary large expense  

 

All shit but I'd take it over the Russian situation any time.

 

The World would be a much better place without Mr Putin and his like. Of that I'm in no doubt. The sooner Russia can become a proper democracy and not a kid on one, ruled by a despotic murderous bully, the better. 

 

Fair comment. There is context though and when Putin took power Russia and the soviet union were in the process of being dismantled and asset stripped. Putin stopped this to some extent and gave Russians back some of their self respect. He curtailled the ativities of some oligarchs and held the country together. My experience is that he is popular amongst Russians who do have serious reservations about him but who also realise that without him things may have been a lot worse.

 

   Russia and the UK are not easily comparable.  Russia has been treated badly by the west and Putin did not inherit a stable democracy with secure borders. I've no doubt Putin is responsible for murders but i think that applies all UK PMs too. 

    The democratic system and international law didn't work too well when it allowed coalition forces to invade Iraq. Blair and the UK could have stopped it i believe as coalition forces would have been morally depleted without the UK and the endorsement of the dodgy dossier. IMO Blair falsified the situation that led to a million dead for no strategic advantage. It was done merely to placate the USA over 9/11 and for Blair to demonstrate Britain's unswerving adherence to US foreign policy no matter how badly it impacted on his own country. IMO it wasn't even primarily about oil it was about demonstrating who rules the world militarily. All done and justified under the guise of democracy.

  The world would be a much better place without american exceptionalism and their enormous military resources, of that i have no doubt. It's about time UK/US looked at the consequences of their actions around the world in recent years and realised that their horrendous crimes are not justifiable just because their leaders were democratically elected. 

[NANOJAMBO]

2 hours ago, coconut doug said:

 

  The world would be a much better place without american exceptionalism and their enormous military resources, of that i have no doubt. It's about time UK/US looked at the consequences of their actions around the world in recent years and realised that their horrendous crimes are not justifiable just because their leaders were democratically elected. 

America saved Europe twice,  in WWI & WWII - some people need a history lesson.

And America's might is a consequence of WWII - prior to that the US was literally nothing militarily.