Should Scotland be an independent country?

[jack D and coke]

3 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Shouts a lot, is disrespectful and with no self respect. Could he be any more hibs ? 

I don’t know if it’s tone of his voice that does it but Jesus it’s like nails down a blackboard I just want him to stop. 
It feels like he’s been doing the speaking down there for so long too.
Surely a change soon🙈

[graygo]

53 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Well the state of things she controls in Scotland I’d say quite a lot. 
 

Blackford should be ignored by everyone not just the PM. 

 

Wow, far too intellectual argument for me. I'm out.

[graygo]

43 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Shouts a lot, is disrespectful and with no self respect. Could he be any more hibs ? 

 

Liz Truss must be Hibs too, must be.

[JudyJudyJudy]

42 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I don’t know if it’s tone of his voice that does it but Jesus it’s like nails down a blackboard I just want him to stop. 
It feels like he’s been doing the speaking down there for so long too.
Surely a change soon🙈

They have a brilliant intellectual orator in their team in the house but she’s been sidelined / ignored / maligned / victimised due to some of her opinions which are in conflict with SNP and NS ideologies . Her name is Joanna Cherry 🍒 

[jack D and coke]

6 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

They have a brilliant intellectual orator in their team in the house but she’s been sidelined / ignored / maligned / victimised due to some of her opinions which are in conflict with SNP and NS ideologies . Her name is Joanna Cherry 🍒 

Yeah she is one of the SNP’s better ones without a doubt. Bizarre what they’ve done to her. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

19 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Yeah she is one of the SNP’s better ones without a doubt. Bizarre what they’ve done to her. 

Shameful really . 

[graygo]

3 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Sorry to have insulted the dear leader, Gray. With her unlimited knowledge and wisdom she will no doubt be leading us into a bright new dawn.

 

Trollers troll, the world keeps spinning and we all get on with our life.

[Unknown user]

This started as a good thread, ****ing state of it now.

 

It's not about the SNP, it's not about Dear Leader, it's not about anything other than Should Scotland be independent?

 

Of course Scotland should be independent. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Smithee

[jack D and coke]

7 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Shameful really . 

I have to admit I don’t know exactly what happened but you see things sometimes and I’m assuming it’s the trans thing. I honestly scroll past that stuff I just don’t understand who’s calling who what. Sometimes I read it and I have no idea who’s on what side.
There’s all these weird terms for people and I CBFA with it.
Cherry has always struck me as very decent though. 

[graygo]

8 minutes ago, Smithee said:

This started as a good thread, ****ing state of it now.

 

It's not about the SNP, it's not about Dear Leader, it's not about anything other than Should Scotland be independent?

 

Of course Scotland should be independent. 

 

And it's not about Joanna Cherry either,, other than the fact that she shares the same transphobic views as our resident LGB Alliance mouthpiece.

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I have to admit I don’t know exactly what happened but you see things sometimes and I’m assuming it’s the trans thing. I honestly scroll past that stuff I just don’t understand who’s calling who what. Sometimes I read it and I have no idea who’s on what side.
There’s all these weird terms for people and I CBFA with it.
Cherry has always struck me as very decent though. 

Its a host of issues really I think they " disagree" on. 

[Ainsley Harriott]

2 hours ago, OmiyaHearts said:

Seems more like a colonisation than a Union to me.

Strange a colonisation that held a referendum on its membership 

[Ainsley Harriott]

1 hour ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

They have a brilliant intellectual orator in their team in the house but she’s been sidelined / ignored / maligned / victimised due to some of her opinions which are in conflict with SNP and NS ideologies . Her name is Joanna Cherry 🍒 

Sturgeon rules with an iron fist. She surrounds herself with nodding dogs. Cherry is a smart person capable of thought hence no place for her in the dictators plans.

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, jonesy said:

It’s gone this way because of entrenched viewpoints and ‘internet’ debating styles. I am happy to read and understand both sides, but there are some, yourself included I’m afraid, who seem only in the mood to vilify. Such efforts are only likely to lead to this kind of shite which I am happy to lower myself to for a wee bit of a laugh now and again.

 

No it hasn't, it went this way because reasoned debate showed a great deal of reason to vote for independence.

 

Why should Scotland not be independent?

[pablo]

2 hours ago, OmiyaHearts said:

Seems more like a colonisation than a Union to me.

 

Strange colonial set up. We're all UK citizens with one vote each.

 

There's also more Scots living in England than there are English living here. Who is colonising who?

 

 

[pablo]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

No it hasn't, it went this way because reasoned debate showed a great deal of reason to vote for independence.

 

Why should Scotland not be independent?

 

Because component parts of a sovereign state can't secede willy-nilly. And certainly not without a majority in support of the idea.

[Dawnrazor]

14 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

 

 

Why should Scotland not be independent?

For some it'll be because of the points in this thread.

[JudyJudyJudy]

26 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Sturgeon rules with an iron fist. She surrounds herself with nodding dogs. Cherry is a smart person capable of thought hence no place for her in the dictators plans.

Yep 

[Unknown user]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

For some it'll be because of the points in this thread.

 

Give me a few good reasons, it's a discussion forum after all.

[periodictabledancer]

7 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Because component parts of a sovereign state can't secede willy-nilly. And certainly not without a majority in support of the idea.

Your misquoting/ misunderstanding. Scotland isn't a territory *

of England.

Scotland is a country in a voluntary political union. 

* Even tho the Tories have deliberately started using the term recently. 

 

This where the Yoon comparison falls apart re Catalunya , which is a territory of Spain and will never be recognised by the EU as a sovereign state if it ever breaks away. 

 

I am not accusing you of anything just making a point for clarity. 

[Dawnrazor]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Give me a few good reasons, it's a discussion forum after all.

I've given points, as have others, in this thread already.

 

[Boab]

18 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

No it hasn't, it went this way because reasoned debate showed a great deal of reason to vote for independence.

 

Why should Scotland not be independent?

I’m up for reasoned debate as much as anyone but when the Foreign Sec calls for the FM to be ignored as she is “ an attention seeker “, it should be called out for the idiotic rambling it is.

She is a bomb scare and a moron to boot.

 

[Unknown user]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

I've given points, as have others, in this thread already.

 

 

Or run away, up to you.

 

Of course Scotland should be a sovereign country!

What justification is there for another country choosing our government, deciding what happens to our people and with our resources?

[Dazo]

1 hour ago, graygo said:

 

Liz Truss must be Hibs too, must be.

On the face of it I’d say worse. She surprise us all though. 

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Boab said:

I’m up for reasoned debate as much as anyone but when the Foreign Sec calls for the FM to be ignored as she is “ an attention seeker “, it should be called out for the idiotic rambling it is.

She is a bomb scare and a moron to boot.

 

 

It's a fair point that the dismissal of our elected representatives is a disgrace and another reason we need independence.

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

Or run away, up to you.

 

Of course Scotland should be a sovereign country!

What justification is there for another country choosing our government, deciding what happens to our people and with our resources?

Nobody's running away ya trumpet!!!

Points have been made throughout this thread, go and read them and answer your own question.

[Unknown user]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

Nobody's running away ya trumpet!!!

Points have been made throughout this thread, go and read them and answer your own question.

 

 I don't recall any good reason, convince me ya euphonium.

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, Boab said:

I’m up for reasoned debate as much as anyone but when the Foreign Sec calls for the FM to be ignored as she is “ an attention seeker “, it should be called out for the idiotic rambling it is.

She is a bomb scare and a moron to boot.

 

She really is hopeless 

[Dazo]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Or run away, up to you.

 

Of course Scotland should be a sovereign country!

What justification is there for another country choosing our government, deciding what happens to our people and with our resources?

I’d imagine the justification comes from the agreement we made many years ago. 

[Unknown user]

Just now, Dazo said:

I’d imagine the justification comes from the agreement we made many years ago. 

 

That agreement didn't say anything about Scotland being a junior party in a democracy and having to live with whatever England's electorate decides.

[graygo]

1 hour ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Its a host of issues really I think they " disagree" on. 

 

37 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Sturgeon rules with an iron fist. She surrounds herself with nodding dogs. Cherry is a smart person capable of thought hence no place for her in the dictators plans.

 

I would have thought that when an MP disagrees with their party on a host of issues it's time for them to look for another party. 

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

 I don't recall any good reason, convince me ya euphonium.

 

 

Well after 99 ****in pages in this tread alone we can safely you're one of the entrenched postes then.

[pablo]

24 minutes ago, periodictabledancer said:

Your misquoting/ misunderstanding. Scotland isn't a territory *

of England.

Scotland is a country in a voluntary political union. 

* Even tho the Tories have deliberately started using the term recently. 

 

This where the Yoon comparison falls apart re Catalunya , which is a territory of Spain and will never be recognised by the EU as a sovereign state if it ever breaks away. 

 

I am not accusing you of anything just making a point for clarity. 

 

I guess it would have to be tested in International law to know for sure? The integrity of the United Kingdom would will be protected under International law also.

 

Pretty moot point anyway as without a significant shift in favour of breaking up the UK, it's unlikely to be tested anytime soon. 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

As I’ve said before, this has reached the stage where people might as well vote based purely on ideology. You can argue details back and forward but nobody knows for sure and nobody listens if it’s not what they want to hear. If you want independence, vote for it and then suck it up if it’s shite. If you want to stay in the Union, likewise.

[jack D and coke]

5 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

As I’ve said before, this has reached the stage where people might as well vote based purely on ideology. You can argue details back and forward but nobody knows for sure and nobody listens if it’s not what they want to hear. If you want independence, vote for it and then suck it up if it’s shite. If you want to stay in the Union, likewise.

And close thread really. 
Everything else tends to be whataboutery and a bun fight.  

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

And close thread really. 
Everything else tends to be whataboutery and a bun fight.  

The standard of politicians in Westminster is dreadful. The standard of politicians in Scotland is dreadful. That’s probably the bigger picture here - we all deserve much, much better.

[Unknown user]

Just now, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

The standard of politicians in Westminster is dreadful. The standard of politicians in Scotland is dreadful. That’s probably the bigger picture here - we all deserve much, much better.

 

We do. A government that exists to, and is answerable to, Scotland's electorate is surely a great place to start.

[Unknown user]

32 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Well after 99 ****in pages in this tread alone we can safely you're one of the entrenched postes then.

 

I certainly have Scottish independence high on my list of priorities, I can give some bloody good reasons why too.

 

In the 122 years since the Labour party was formed we've had a grand total of six Labour prime ministers, we've only ever had a government we voted for by coincidence, because England voted for it too.

 

Scotland deserves the same as all the other sovereign nations out there - a government that exists for, and is accountable to, the people of Scotland.

[Boab]

7 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

The standard of politicians in Westminster is dreadful. The standard of politicians in Scotland is dreadful. That’s probably the bigger picture here - we all deserve much, much better.

Well that’s the crux of it.

If people think the political situation down south will improve, or are happy with it as it is, they’ll hopefully get the chance to vote for that next year.

Personally, I think it will get worse so taking our chances alone seems not a bad idea. 
I think, as Scots, we could well end up with a better government after a yes Indy vote. I think England is on a path that won’t benefit us in the long term. You only need to look at the opposition to see that.

 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

23 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

We do. A government that exists to, and is answerable to, Scotland's electorate is surely a great place to start.

In theory, yes. But don’t assume that will give you a better government. It’s just a cliche really - we’re all the mercy of who we’re actually able to vote for. Most politicians are dicks/sociopaths 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

13 minutes ago, Boab said:

Well that’s the crux of it.

If people think the political situation down south will improve, or are happy with it as it is, they’ll hopefully get the chance to vote for that next year.

Personally, I think it will get worse so taking our chances alone seems not a bad idea. 
I think, as Scots, we could well end up with a better government after a yes Indy vote. I think England is on a path that won’t benefit us in the long term. You only need to look at the opposition to see that.

 

It would be quite an achievement to end up with a worse government than these dicks 

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

In theory, yes. But don’t assume that will give you a better government. It’s just a cliche really - we’re all the mercy of who we’re actually able to vote for. Most politicians are dicks/sociopaths 

 

It'll give us a better system, the governments are up to us.

[Boab]

11 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

It would be quite an achievement to end up with a worse government than these dicks 

If Scotland were ever Independent, I’m confident that we would never vote in a Tory Government so it could only be better. The clue’s in their name. No union, no reason to exist.

Suits me !

👍

[The Mighty Thor]

25 minutes ago, Boab said:

Personally, I think it will get worse so taking our chances alone seems not a bad idea. 

It's the bit that people are still not getting. 

 

England is heading in a very different direction from us socially and economically, never mind the political rush to pseudo-fascism. 

 

The driver behind it all? English Nationalism.  

 

You saw the underlying elements of it last night with the whooping and clapping of the Tory party members after Truss' ridiculous and offensive statements on Sturgeon.

 

These dicks are emboldened by the racism they got away with under the guise of Brexit and now they think that the 'make England great again' current direction of the UKIP/BNP hybrid government is how it all should be. 

 

But we're all the same likesy.  

[Boab]

23 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

It's the bit that people are still not getting. 

 

England is heading in a very different direction from us socially and economically, never mind the political rush to pseudo-fascism. 

 

The driver behind it all? English Nationalism.  

 

You saw the underlying elements of it last night with the whooping and clapping of the Tory party members after Truss' ridiculous and offensive statements on Sturgeon.

 

These dicks are emboldened by the racism they got away with under the guise of Brexit and now they think that the 'make England great again' current direction of the UKIP/BNP hybrid government is how it all should be. 

 

But we're all the same likesy.  

Ironically, I'm for a rise in English nationalism as, as you say, it creates a situation that would suit anyone who believes Scotland could go it alone.

With respect to my many English friends, we have different core values. That is evidenced in the way we have been voting for 70 odd years. 

Refusing a vote will only create more division. That division will result in another vote at some juncture. It's inevitable really.

 

[Dawnrazor]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

I certainly have Scottish independence high on my list of priorities, I can give some bloody good reasons why too.

 

In the 122 years since the Labour party was formed we've had a grand total of six Labour prime ministers, we've only ever had a government we voted for by coincidence, because England voted for it too.

 

Scotland deserves the same as all the other sovereign nations out there - a government that exists for, and is accountable to, the people of Scotland.

You asked for "reasons" why people don't think Scotland should be independent, I pointed out that there were reasons on this thread of 99 pages, it won't matter what anybody says to you because your mind seems absolutely closed to anything anyone says to you about it you won't change, why ask for reasons when you ca  re read the thread and see them for yourself?

I've read a hundred times what you think you really didn't have to write it again.

You asked for reasons, they are here, nobody's "running away".

[Boab]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

You asked for "reasons" why people don't think Scotland should be independent, I pointed out that there were reasons on this thread of 99 pages, it won't matter what anybody says to you because your mind seems absolutely closed to anything anyone says to you about it you won't change, why ask for reasons when you ca  re read the thread and see them for yourself?

I've read a hundred times what you think you really didn't have to write it again.

You asked for reasons, they are here, nobody's "running away".

Some would construe refusing a vote as “ running away “ I'd say.

A No vote would make it extremely difficult for the Nats to proceed with a 3rd ref without incurring the wrath of many.

They may try, it's their prime policy, but it would blow a big hole in their ambitions.

Refusing a vote is only kicking it a wee bit down the road.

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, Boab said:

Some would construe refusing a vote as “ running away “ I'd say.

A No vote would make it extremely difficult for the Nats to proceed with a 3rd ref without incurring the wrath of many.

They may try, it's their prime policy, but it would blow a big hole in their ambitions.

Refusing a vote is only kicking it a wee bit down the road.

I was referring to be being accused of "running away" for saying the answers are in the thread and not directly giving a reason.

[jack D and coke]

9 minutes ago, Boab said:

Some would construe refusing a vote as “ running away “ I'd say.

A No vote would make it extremely difficult for the Nats to proceed with a 3rd ref without incurring the wrath of many.

They may try, it's their prime policy, but it would blow a big hole in their ambitions.

Refusing a vote is only kicking it a wee bit down the road.

A No vote again and it’s completely over for me. There really is only so often you can put everyone and yourself through this. 
Tbh it was settled if the media hadn’t gave so much time to that cockbag Nigel Farage and daft old bints like Anne Widecombe. 
They did though and then pricks like Johnson, Rees Mogg etc jumped aboard and here we are again with Truss telling us to be quiet and she’s not even in the seat yet. 
I have no idea how anyone who even slightly considers themselves Scottish isn’t a bit pissed off by it all. 
Just imagine for a second this was all the way round and some scottish would be PM was hooring themselves into the job telling them half of them would be ignored to a crowd of Jocks cheering.

Oooft  

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by jack D and coke

[Boab]

11 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I was referring to be being accused of "running away" for saying the answers are in the thread and not directly giving a reason.

Ah, no worries.

👍