Should Scotland be an independent country?

[That thing you do]

Before questioning me. You might want to read this: https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8738/CBP-8738.pdf

 

House of Paliment Library entries about this. 

 

The UK position is they have the right to say yes or no, but all else (timing, question, who is franchised to vote and the vote itself are run by SParl). Which means Scotlands "right" to determine if it can recind the treaty it signed is in the hands of the other signatory. That position is to define Scotland as a possession of the wider UK - whatever side of the argument you are on, that is a fact.

 

The SNP questioned the need for an S30 the last time and wanted the supreme court ruling but were offered an S30 option and while maintaining in writing they are of the belief they dont need it, agreed it to be pragmatic.

 

It also acted as a legal guarantee to abide by the result.

 

The argument then as now is The UK has final say on "Union between Scotland and England" which defacto gives England the final say over Scotland given the make up of the UK. Make no mistake that is exactly what it imples. That would break international law on self determination. This argument was never tested the first time and it looks like (from Parliament record) the SNP wanted it to be from this document. If the Supreme Court agrees with the UK then Scotlands right to self determination has two legal avenues - election is a defacto referendum or UDI - Unilateral Declaration (which Im against as its no more democratic than the shenanigans that created the UK in the first place). The third is beg the UK for S30. 

 

The UK position is that all of this is based on the Scotland Act 1998 (not as some may think, the foundation of the Treaty of Union). The argument is The Scotland Act supersedes those arguments. Or in other words is a stick to beat Scotland with.

 

Notice as well how the Act is written to persuade this to be the case "If referendum legislation were to be referred to the Supreme Court, the starting point for its Justices would be the 1998 Act itself. Under section 29(1), Acts of the Scottish Parliament which fall outwith its legislative competence (or powers) are “not law”. An Act (or a provision thereof) is beyond competence so far as it “relates to reserved matters”. Reserved matters are set out in Schedule 5, Part 1 of which reserves “aspects of the constitution” to Westminster. This includes, among other things, “the Union of the Kingdoms of Scotland and England” and “the Parliament of the United Kingdom”. The 1998 Act also provides a set of principles to assist the courts when approaching questions of competence. Those questions are also known as “devolution issues”. Whether a provision of an Act “relates to” a reserved matter is to be determined “by reference to the purpose of the provision, having regard (among other things) to its effect in all the circumstances”. https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-9104/CBP-9104.pdf

 

This act was created to create the impression it was unchallengeable and with a set agenda. To essentially say. regardless of the foundation on which the UK was built, this law should be your first port of call which, coincidentally, leaves self determination of Scotland in our hands.

 

I know some wont like reading this, but the defacto position within the UK is Scotland belongs to "it" not the People of Scotland.

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by That thing you do

[That thing you do]

On right to self determination https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-184801/

 

Reaffirming also the importance of the universal realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, national sovereignty and territorial integrity and of the speedy granting of independence to colonial countries and peoples as imperatives for the full enjoyment of all human rights

 

Said during an address about Namibia who gained independence from.....?

 

https://press.un.org/en/2013/gashc4085.doc.htm

 

It is our right as a people to get a referendum if the people voted in a part offering one. 

 

Again, whether you are yes or no, you are entitled to your position, what is at stake here is Scotlands right to choose which is enshrined in lnternational Law. Its actually a basic human right. Now, I wonder if this has anything to do with the UK pulling out of human rights legisation in Europe? Topical and interesting timing no?

 

By all means keep commenting on me using jargon and half truths, Ill keep posting dodgy references like the UN and UK Parliament Library in the mean time

[Unknown user]

12 minutes ago, That thing you do said:

Before questioning me. You might want to read this: https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8738/CBP-8738.pdf

 

House of Paliment Library entries about this. 

 

The UK position is they have the right to say yes or no, but all else (timing, question, who is franchised to vote and the vote itself are run by SParl). Which means Scotlands "right" to determine if it can recind the treaty it signed is in the hands of the other signatory. That position is to define Scotland as a possession of the wider UK - whatever side of the argument you are on, that is a fact.

 

The SNP questioned the need for an S30 the last time and wanted the supreme court ruling but were offered an S30 option and while maintaining in writing they are of the belief they dont need it, agreed it to be pragmatic.

 

It also acted as a legal guarantee to abide by the result.

 

The argument then as now is The UK has final say on "Union between Scotland and England" which defacto gives England the final say over Scotland given the make up of the UK. Make no mistake that is exactly what it imples. That would break international law on self determination. This argument was never tested the first time and it looks like (from Parliament record) the SNP wanted it to be from this document. If the Supreme Court agrees with the UK then Scotlands right to self determination has two legal avenues - election is a defacto referendum or UDI - Unilateral Declaration (which Im against as its no more democratic than the shenanigans that created the UK in the first place). The third is beg the UK for S30. 

 

The UK position is that all of this is based on the Scotland Act 1998 (not as some may think, the foundation of the Treaty of Union). The argument is The Scotland Act supersedes those arguments. Or in other words is a stick to beat Scotland with.

 

Notice as well how the Act is written to persuade this to be the case "If referendum legislation were to be referred to the Supreme Court, the starting point for its Justices would be the 1998 Act itself. Under section 29(1), Acts of the Scottish Parliament which fall outwith its legislative competence (or powers) are “not law”. An Act (or a provision thereof) is beyond competence so far as it “relates to reserved matters”. Reserved matters are set out in Schedule 5, Part 1 of which reserves “aspects of the constitution” to Westminster. This includes, among other things, “the Union of the Kingdoms of Scotland and England” and “the Parliament of the United Kingdom”. The 1998 Act also provides a set of principles to assist the courts when approaching questions of competence. Those questions are also known as “devolution issues”. Whether a provision of an Act “relates to” a reserved matter is to be determined “by reference to the purpose of the provision, having regard (among other things) to its effect in all the circumstances”. https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-9104/CBP-9104.pdf

 

This act was created to create the impression it was unchallengeable and with a set agenda. To essentially say. regardless of the foundation on which the UK was built, this law should be your first port of call which, coincidentally, leaves self determination of Scotland in our hands.

 

I know some wont like reading this, but the defacto position within the UK is Scotland belongs to "it" not the People of Scotland.

 

Yeah it's as simple as that

 

Westminster is dominated by English MPs, therefore we're in a union where England's representatives would decide if Scotland is allowed to leave the Union.

[Dazo]

26 minutes ago, That thing you do said:

On right to self determination https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-184801/

 

Reaffirming also the importance of the universal realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, national sovereignty and territorial integrity and of the speedy granting of independence to colonial countries and peoples as imperatives for the full enjoyment of all human rights

 

Said during an address about Namibia who gained independence from.....?

 

https://press.un.org/en/2013/gashc4085.doc.htm

 

It is our right as a people to get a referendum if the people voted in a part offering one. 

 

Again, whether you are yes or no, you are entitled to your position, what is at stake here is Scotlands right to choose which is enshrined in lnternational Law. Its actually a basic human right. Now, I wonder if this has anything to do with the UK pulling out of human rights legisation in Europe? Topical and interesting timing no?

 

By all means keep commenting on me using jargon and half truths, Ill keep posting dodgy references like the UN and UK Parliament Library in the mean time

Have the people of Scotland asked for a referendum ? 

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Have the people of Scotland asked for a referendum ? 

 

You'd need to hold a referendum to find that out, so we make do with their democratically elected representatives doing it on their behalf.

[Dazo]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

You'd need to hold a referendum to find that out, so we make do with their democratically elected representatives doing it on their behalf.

Why don’t the Scottish government ask the people of Scotland if they want one instead of trying to force one on us ? 
 

Simple enough to do and it need not involve England or Westminster in any way. 

[Unknown user]

Just now, Dazo said:

Why don’t the Scottish government ask the people of Scotland if they want one instead of trying to force one on us ? 
 

Simple enough to do and it need not involve England or Westminster in any way. 

 

Have a referendum to see if we want a referendum?

[Dazo]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

Have a referendum to see if we want a referendum?

Give it what ever name you want Smithee but asking the people and getting the answer gives them a far stronger hand surely ? 
 

For some reason the nationalists would rather force this on us. 

[Ray Gin]

11 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Have the people of Scotland asked for a referendum ? 

 

Yes, we have elected parties that had a referendum in their manifestos.

 

[Dazo]

Just now, Ray Gin said:

 

Yes, we have elected parties that had a referendum in their manifestos.

 

The majority of people want a referendum ? 

[Ray Gin]

Just now, Dazo said:

The majority of people want a referendum ? 

 

The majority of the electorate voted for parties that want to hold a referendum. Do you have a better way of deciding whether one should be held or not?

 

[Ray Gin]

6 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Have a referendum to see if we want a referendum?

 

Aye but you'll need another referendum to decide if we should have the referendum on the referendum.

And another one on that referendum and loop into infinity.

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

10 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Aye but you'll need another referendum to decide if we should have the referendum on the referendum.

And another one on that referendum and loop into infinity.

 

[Dazo]

43 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

The majority of the electorate voted for parties that want to hold a referendum. Do you have a better way of deciding whether one should be held or not?

 

Yes, ask the people of Scotland. Thought I’d made that clear. 

[Ray Gin]

Just now, Dazo said:

Yes, ask the people of Scotland. Thought I’d made that clear. 

 

But that would be a referendum. How do you decide whether we have that referendum?

[Dazo]

Just now, Ray Gin said:

 

But that would be a referendum. How do you decide whether we have that referendum?

No it wouldn’t, there would be no legal or political consequence of the answer. It would simply show the will of the Scottish people. It would surely strengthen the argument that the SNP speak for the Scottish people when they are demanding a independence referendum. 

[manaliveits105]

1 hour ago, Dazo said:

Have the people of Scotland asked for a referendum ? 

No and the majority don’t want one 

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, Dazo said:

No it wouldn’t, there would be no legal or political consequence of the answer. It would simply show the will of the Scottish people. It would surely strengthen the argument that the SNP speak for the Scottish people when they are demanding a independence referendum. 

How is that not a referendum?

[Dazo]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

How is that not a referendum?

Mainly because there is no law, proposal or decision based on the result. It’s a consensus of the Scottish people. 

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Mainly because there is no law, proposal or decision based on the result. It’s a consensus of the Scottish people. 

 

That's a referendum.

We can call it a plebiscite if you prefer, but it's still a referendum. 

 

The Brexit one was a non binding referendum, but that was still a referendum, right?

[JudyJudyJudy]

I’d agree . Let’s have a vote on whether to have a ref or not ? It’s fairly simple surely ? 

[Unknown user]

People who don't want referendums now want a referendum to decide if we have a referendum.

 

But I don't want a referendum to see if we want a referendum - we should have some sort of vote on it.

[jambo89]

9 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

Can I check. Are you suggesting we have a vote to decide if we have a referendum?

 

I’ve only read the last couple of post my bad if missing something?
 

 

 

Yes he is. But it's only a vote on one particular question / issue, so it's definitely not a referendum.

Edited July 26, 2022 by jambo89

[Dazo]

4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

That's a referendum.

We can call it a plebiscite if you prefer, but it's still a referendum. 

 

The Brexit one was a non binding referendum, but that was still a referendum, right?

Call it whatever you want sweetheart. 😘

[Unknown user]

Just now, Dazo said:

Call it whatever you want sweetheart. 😘

 

I'll probably stick with referendum, it avoids confusion.

[Boab]

1 hour ago, jonesy said:

The Indy supporters remind me of my kids when, having already had plenty of time on their video games, just keep coming up with reason after reason why they should more Switch time. 
 

Some days I stand my ground and they go away to do other things like draw pictures or invent silly wee games in the garden. Others I just give up because I can’t be arsed with the heid nipping.

 

I’m verging more toward the latter when it comes to independence now. Just go for it lads. But you’re going to be awfy tired in the morning.

A closer analogy would be you going in and binning the video game and your kids taking you to court to force you to buy another one.

 

Possibly…😂

[Boab]

1 hour ago, jonesy said:

Don’t give the wee shites any ideas, Boab.

👍

[That thing you do]

4 hours ago, jonesy said:

The Indy supporters remind me of my kids when, having already had plenty of time on their video games, just keep coming up with reason after reason why they should more Switch time. 
 

Some days I stand my ground and they go away to do other things like draw pictures or invent silly wee games in the garden. Others I just give up because I can’t be arsed with the heid nipping.

 

I’m verging more toward the latter when it comes to independence now. Just go for it lads. But you’re going to be awfy tired in the morning.

Funny

 

Unionists are those people who go to Benidorm to experience another culture  and head straight for a british pub in their uj swimming shorts to try the local cuisine and end up with ale pie and chips, buy a daily record every day and moan Juanita at the bar speaks terrible English.

[manaliveits105]

1 hour ago, That thing you do said:

Funny

 

Unionists are those people who go to Benidorm to experience another culture  and head straight for a british pub in their uj swimming shorts to try the local cuisine and end up with ale pie and chips, buy a daily record every day and moan Juanita at the bar speaks terrible English.

You’ve not been able to get the Record in Spain for years now 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, That thing you do said:

Funny

 

Unionists are those people who go to Benidorm to experience another culture  and head straight for a british pub in their uj swimming shorts to try the local cuisine and end up with ale pie and chips, buy a daily record every day and moan Juanita at the bar speaks terrible English.

Been to Butlins in Ayr type post

[Watt-Zeefuik]

I am unaware of any constraint of the definition of referendum that requires it to be legally binding in some form. A referendum is just a formal election centered on a single question.

 

As such if Dazo is actually serious and not just at the wind up, this all sounds like a lot of nonsense.

[Dazo]

5 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

I am unaware of any constraint of the definition of referendum that requires it to be legally binding in some form. A referendum is just a formal election centered on a single question.

 

As such if Dazo is actually serious and not just at the wind up, this all sounds like a lot of nonsense.

It’s not a wind up as such but if we have people especially the snp saying they speaking on behalf on the Scottish people saying we want a referendum I think that is false. I don’t believe the majority of Scotland want a referendum at this time. 

[The Mighty Thor]

9 hours ago, That thing you do said:

Funny

 

Unionists are those people who go to Benidorm to experience another culture  and head straight for a british pub in their uj swimming shorts to try the local cuisine and end up with ale pie and chips, buy a daily record every day and moan Juanita at the bar speaks terrible English.

Absolutely nailed one of the posters on this thread. 

[Japan Jambo]

On 23/07/2022 at 11:51, Smithee said:

 

The snp exist to try and achieve independence. "They're trying to achieve independence!" is the weakest accusation - we know!

And they respected the result of the referendum just fine, no one's declared independence.

 

The reason we're not in a great place is because we're going down the toilet with a corrupt, nasty, uncaring government in Westminster that doesn't care about Scotland.

 

And if that does change, it'll be very temporary.

 

Soon we'll have the 4th Tory prime minister in 12 years, the 15th in the last century.

 

But there have only ever been 6 Labour prime ministers. 

 

We'll get what England gives us, and, if we're very lucky, every now and again it might be a government that cares about Scotland. But it won't be, it'll be Tories most of the time, it's what England does.

 

 

The SNP democratically campaigning for the reason they exist is something you'll just need to get over, this isn't going away.

 

 

 

three of whom were Scottish... 

[Japan Jambo]

16 hours ago, Smithee said:

People who don't want referendums now want a referendum to decide if we have a referendum.

 

But I don't want a referendum to see if we want a referendum - we should have some sort of vote on it.

 

you already had one and you lost. polls aren't calling for one either but I guess we just keep voting till we get the result you want right?

[Ainsley Harriott]

10 hours ago, That thing you do said:

Funny

 

Unionists are those people who go to Benidorm to experience another culture  and head straight for a british pub in their uj swimming shorts to try the local cuisine and end up with ale pie and chips, buy a daily record every day and moan Juanita at the bar speaks terrible English.

Nationalists are another breed all together

 

[Ray Gin]

9 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

You’ve not been able to get the Record in Spain for years now 

 

Sorry for your loss  

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

11 hours ago, That thing you do said:

Funny

 

Unionists are those people who go to Benidorm to experience another culture  and head straight for a british pub in their uj swimming shorts to try the local cuisine and end up with ale pie and chips, buy a daily record every day and moan Juanita at the bar speaks terrible English.

Rather snooty and condescending post . Benidorm is terribly underrated place  really , if you’ve ever been there you’ll know that . It’s got a bad reputation but it’s a terrific holiday resort imo . 

[Dazo]

5 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Rather snooty and condescending post . Benidorm is terribly underrated place  really , if you’ve ever been there you’ll know that . It’s got a bad reputation but it’s a terrific holiday resort imo . 

To be fair to That thing you do it was more a humourless attempt at having a go at unionists rather than Benidorm. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

18 minutes ago, Dazo said:

To be fair to That thing you do it was more a humourless attempt at having a go at unionists rather than Benidorm. 

It was humourless 

[manaliveits105]

22 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Rather snooty and condescending post . Benidorm is terribly underrated place  really , if you’ve ever been there you’ll know that . It’s got a bad reputation but it’s a terrific holiday resort imo . 

Fantastic place - something for everyone - when I go I never leave the old town - great little bars and restaurants and watching the Spanish stroll in the evening .Some great hotels with roof top bars and DJs  It’s the Spaniards favourite holiday place too - lot of money being spent on it - beaches are great 

If you want drunken chaos of course go to the British strip along the other end 

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 hour ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Nationalists are another breed all together

 

That’s so wrong as a ***** is a useful thing.

[JudyJudyJudy]

14 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Fantastic place - something for everyone - when I go I never leave the old town - great little bars and restaurants and watching the Spanish stroll in the evening .Some great hotels with roof top bars and DJs  It’s the Spaniards favourite holiday place too - lot of money being spent on it - beaches are great 

If you want drunken chaos of course go to the British strip along the other end 

 

Exactly there are two sides to Benidorm , I frequent both 😂 the old town has some lovely bars and restaurants too . The beaches are immaculate and the police don’t take any shit from drunken rabbles . Huckle them right away . Always sunny too and plenty bars have free entertainment at nights too . A great place 

[manaliveits105]

12 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

That’s so wrong as a ***** is a useful thing.

No these 4 ***** 

[OmiyaHearts]

3 hours ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

you already had one and you lost. polls aren't calling for one either but I guess we just keep voting till we get the result you want right?

We keep doing it after every General Election until we get it.

 

If English politics result in massive change for the people of Scotland, why can't we have an independence referendum each time?

Edited July 27, 2022 by OmiyaHearts

[That thing you do]

1 hour ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Rather snooty and condescending post . Benidorm is terribly underrated place  really , if you’ve ever been there you’ll know that . It’s got a bad reputation but it’s a terrific holiday resort imo . 

I lived in spain for 3 years. Ive been.

 

Ive also watched my mexican wife join a members club after asking for the form in Spanish in Marbella

 

"We dont speak spanish in ere love" was the reply.

 

So, snooty and condecending maybe, but no less accurate

Edited July 27, 2022 by That thing you do

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, That thing you do said:

I lived in spain for 3 years. Ive been.

 

Ive also watched my mexican wife join a members club after asking for the form in Spanish in Marbella

 

"We dont speak spanish in ere love" was the reply.

 

So, snooty and condecending maybe, but no less accurate

So your talking about the “ ex pats “ not actual tourists. I agree with you regarding those immigrants not ex pats who refuse to intigrate . An odious bunch but Benidorm itself is a great city 

[That thing you do]

3 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

So your talking about the “ ex pats “ not actual tourists. I agree with you regarding those immigrants not ex pats who refuse to intigrate . An odious bunch but Benidorm itself is a great city 

Both to be honest. The expats (many of whom laughingly supported Brexit) are worse than the average tourist but far too many fit the profile i described.

Ok not all have uj swimming shorts.

 

But their idea of culture far too often is sky sports at the dog and duck for 2 weeks.

 

What I will agree on is the places themselves are nice to be in. I enjoyed Marbella Sotogrande  San Pedro and Fuengirola but Fuengirola only in winter.

 

Benidorm and even Torremolinos are fine to walk around.

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by That thing you do

[JudyJudyJudy]

8 minutes ago, That thing you do said:

Both to be honest. The expats (many of whom laughingly supported Brexit) are worse than the average tourist but far too many fit the profile i described.

Ok not all have uj swimming shorts.

 

But their idea of culture far too often is sky sports at the dog and duck for 2 weeks.

 

 

True ! I nearly scream at my telly when I watch ex pats in Spain 🇪🇸 who make zero effort to integrate into Spanish  culture “ “ bargain living brits in the sun “ is hysterical . It’s on channel 5 

Edited July 27, 2022 by JudyJudyJudy

[JudyJudyJudy]

Actually it’s an odd one as I watch various programmes about brits abroad . There is a new one called “ we bought a village “ and most of the “ expats “ are integrating well into their chosen country . For some reason most who move to France seem the most sophisticated . Couple on it just now who have moved there but I don’t think they speak French as yet . It’s on channel 4 around 4 or 5 I think . It’s really good