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Should Scotland be an independent country?


Alex Kintner
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Should Scotland be an independent country?  

224 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Scotland be an independent country?

    • Yes
      152
    • No
      63
    • Don’t know/ Abstain/ Spoil ballot
      9


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2 hours ago, Des Lynam said:


It’s the one question that I think will torpedo the chances of independence unless they are brave enough to deal with it.  As stated Brexit has changed the game on keeping the Sterling pound. A new currency pegged to sterling using a currency board is one option and in time replace with the Euro. A new Scottish currency with our own Central bank is certainly do able but would require high level of fiscal discipline. Membership of the eurozone is a great option in my opinion with benefits of the banking union and European Central Bank lender of last resort responsibilities. Plus the ECB has gold and lots of it. 
 

Anyway should Scotland be an independent country? Yes! 

It has been answered numerous times but that means nothing to the unionists. The stated position is to start by using sterling and then, in the medium term, move to our own Scottish currency. Unionists repeating over and over again that there is no answer to the currency issue is just lies

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Byyy The Light

I’d like to think if it was to happen everyone would learn lessons from Brexit.

 

The ability to vote on the agreed deal of the divorce. Can’t be walking blindly off the edge of the cliff led by false promises and utter bullshit.

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8 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Amongst Hearts fans too. Obviously not reflective of the real support base nor the country.

At any rate, that wouldn't be the question in any future referendum.  Would be along the lines of "do you want Scotland to remain in the UK or leave the UK"


Why do you think it would be a different question to the last time?

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Ainsley Harriott
2 hours ago, Longbaws said:

Make yourself a coffee and get the snacks out. Final results are not expected until tomorrow. 

 

Exit polls are predicting 70%/30% in favour of Yes.

Should send it on to wee Nicola's office. I'm sure she will declare the opinion of kickback as a strong mandate for the losers to get a rerun.

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16 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said:


The 16-24yo thing is bizarre. I was very surprised to see that the majority had voted no in 2014 (think it was about 55-45 split in favour of No). Polling over past couple of years shows a 60-40 split for Yes amongst 16-24yo. I’m genuinely stumped as to why such a turnaround in only a few years. The only thing I can think of is Brexit. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Yes it would say it’s definitely Brexit . 

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4 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:

I’d like to think if it was to happen everyone would learn lessons from Brexit.

 

The ability to vote on the agreed deal of the divorce. Can’t be walking blindly off the edge of the cliff led by false promises and utter bullshit.

Good point ! The no campaign will use the Brexit split as an example of a union breaking up And it being a disaster . I’m not saying I agree with that but they will try every trick in the book to encourage the no Vote . 

Edited by JamesM48
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Ainsley Harriott
Just now, JamesM48 said:

Yes it would say it’s definitely Brexit . 

I really don't get the Brexit thing. The UK is a far more important economical zone for Scotland than the EU. Additionally yes in 2014 would have seen us leave the EU anyhow. Very weak argument but it's drip fed by the nationalists. 

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Just now, Alex Kintner said:


Why do you think it would be a different question to the last time?

The Yes/No was deemed to be favourable to Yes, by the Electoral Commission,  at the time of Brexit. 

Yes is, by definition,  positive whereas No is the opposite.  

That's why we had Leave/Remain. No chance the UK govt will sanction a referendum on the same terms as DC did. He handed all the advantages to the SNP. That won't happen again.

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A Boy Named Crow

The Herald,  a publication that is utterly cringeworthy in its pro-union bias, has support for independence at 55%. Initial signs are good I'd say. 

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2 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

The Yes/No was deemed to be favourable to Yes, by the Electoral Commission,  at the time of Brexit. 

Yes is, by definition,  positive whereas No is the opposite.  

That's why we had Leave/Remain. No chance the UK govt will sanction a referendum on the same terms as DC did. He handed all the advantages to the SNP. That won't happen again.

I never thought about that ! Yes having positive connotations and no not . Clever psychology 

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1 minute ago, JamesM48 said:

I never thought about that ! Yes having positive connotations and no not . Clever psychology 

Oh, they knew what they were doing, James. Even the word "should" was a bit theoretical, a notional concept. "Do you want..." would have focussed minds on the fact people were making a decision rather than expressing a hypothetical opinion.

Cameron was a mug for agreeing to it.

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Ainsley Harriott
1 minute ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

Take all subjective wording away, have two boxes, one for SCOTLAND and one for UK.

 

Pick one 

That makes no sense what so ever 

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6 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Oh, they knew what they were doing, James. Even the word "should" was a bit theoretical, a notional concept. "Do you want..." would have focussed minds on the fact people were making a decision rather than expressing a hypothetical opinion.

Cameron was a mug for agreeing to it.

👍 yes they more than likely had input from social psychologists on the wording .,

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Ainsley Harriott
Just now, A Boy Named Crow said:

How so? It's clear, unambiguous. 

Because Scotland is Scotland regardless of whether it's part of the UK or not. For the record I actually don't think there will be another vote for a good long time

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A Boy Named Crow
Just now, Ainsley Harriott said:

Because Scotland is Scotland regardless of whether it's part of the UK or not. For the record I actually don't think there will be another vote for a good long time

In terms of what you're picking for the referendum,  it couldn't be clearer.

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Byyy The Light
15 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Good point ! The no campaign will use the Brexit split as an example of a union breaking up And it being a disaster . I’m not saying I agree with that but they will try every trick in the book to encourage the no Vote . 


As is their right. They’d also play hardball on any deal if they knew there was a secondary vote. Up to pro independence to make their case too which would likely involve EU promises and backing. Definitely a different dynamic to 2014. Fossil fuels angle not there now either, or at least needs to be played cautiously.

 

Its probably people like me they need to convince (a very big chunk). I like the idea in principle but I run a business that 95% of my client base is English or has UK wide coverage. I’m not going to risk that based on promises and lies.

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2 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:


As is their right. They’d also play hardball on any deal if they knew there was a secondary vote. Up to pro independence to make their case too which would likely involve EU promises and backing. Definitely a different dynamic to 2014. Fossil fuels angle not there now either, or at least needs to be played cautiously.

 

Its probably people like me they need to convince (a very big chunk). I like the idea in principle but I run a business that 95% of my client base is English or has UK wide coverage. I’m not going to risk that based on promises and lies.

Yes both sides will have their arguments as long as they are truthful and not scaremongering nonsense like  stories like last time ( from both sides) then let the dice fall as they may ! It’ll be interesting to see how it is worded . I had a few arguments with one of my young Nieces last time around . She voted no . She did so because she was worried for her kids futures . So everyone has their own Personal as well as political reasons for their decision I guess . That’s to be respected . 

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Still a battle to be won for fence sitters, feardies and under 24’s  but I think Boris in the last 2-3 years has gifted it to us. If it was held this year I’d expect an overwhelming YES. Answer the questions folk are worried about. Highlight the benefits. De bunk the negatives. Job done

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1 hour ago, Byyy The Light said:


As is their right. They’d also play hardball on any deal if they knew there was a secondary vote. Up to pro independence to make their case too which would likely involve EU promises and backing. Definitely a different dynamic to 2014. Fossil fuels angle not there now either, or at least needs to be played cautiously.

 

Its probably people like me they need to convince (a very big chunk). I like the idea in principle but I run a business that 95% of my client base is English or has UK wide coverage. I’m not going to risk that based on promises and lies.

 

I'd personally be up for a modified union, one where we have a customs union etc with the rest of the UK, but we decide our own government.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

Still a battle to be won for fence sitters, feardies and under 24’s  but I think Boris in the last 2-3 years has gifted it to us. If it was held this year I’d expect an overwhelming YES. Answer the questions folk are worried about. Highlight the benefits. De bunk the negatives. Job done

It needs to be simple - do you want to  remain shackled to the Tories & their shit show  forever (it's as bad as it was 40 years ago when they were in power then ) or do you want political, economic freedom & reform ?

 

Let the unionists persuade the people of the benefits of the union. Let the Tories , Labour  & Lib Dems tour Scotland and sell it. 

 

If people are still kidding themselves  they're somehow in favour of indy if only they could resolve ALL the unkowns then the vote will be lost. These people will never be won over

It's quite simple : you want freedom, political reform , independence and true control . Or you don't. 

 

The argument needs to be reframed. 

 

 

 

Edited by NANOJAMBO
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1 minute ago, Smithee said:

Why do you not want Scotland to be an independent country?

 

If Scotland was independent, how would you sell a union like we're in now?

If Scotland was currently independent, would you vote for the " union " we currently have ?

This is what I mean by reframing the argument. 

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A Boy Named Crow
17 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I'd personally be up for a modified union, one where we have a customs union etc with the rest of the UK, but we decide our own government.

 

 

Almost as if an independent Scotland and RUK both rejoined the EU...now there's a thought to play with!

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1 hour ago, JamesM48 said:

Good point ! The no campaign will use the Brexit split as an example of a union breaking up And it being a disaster . I’m not saying I agree with that but they will try every trick in the book to encourage the no Vote . 

:facepalm:

 

So, the Tories won't be campaigning then ? 

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Anyone with an economic brain cell says no. You really believe we’d be better off going it alone with those ****ing idiots Sturgeon, Swinney, Forbes, Yousaf, etc running the show.

 

Look at us with the current devolved powers 🤣🤣 couldn’t run a piss up in a brewery that lot. 

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2 minutes ago, Famous 1874 said:

Anyone with an economic brain cell says no. You really believe we’d be better off going it alone with those ****ing idiots Sturgeon, Swinney, Forbes, Yousaf, etc running the show.

 

Look at us with the current devolved powers 🤣🤣 couldn’t run a piss up in a brewery that lot. 

Why do so many people think the SNP will simply walk into power in an independent Scotland ?

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3 minutes ago, Famous 1874 said:

Anyone with an economic brain cell says no. You really believe we’d be better off going it alone with those ****ing idiots Sturgeon, Swinney, Forbes, Yousaf, etc running the show.

 

Look at us with the current devolved powers 🤣🤣 couldn’t run a piss up in a brewery that lot. 

 

Obviously they'll be made eternal heads of state

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Just now, Smithee said:

 

Obviously they'll be made eternal heads of state

Do people in Scotland GENUINELY believe that in the event of an independent Scotland,  ALL other political parties will just melt away  (Greens excepted) ?. I mean , the usual suspects trot out the usual guff about this (not unexpectedly) but does the polulation at large believe this ? 

 

PS I'm not suggesting you do, personally. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Do people in Scotland GENUINELY believe that in the event of an independent Scotland,  ALL other political parties will just melt away  (Greens excepted) ?. I mean , the usual suspects trot out the usual guff about this (not unexpectedly) but does the polulation at large believe this ? 

 

PS I'm not suggesting you do, personally. 

 

 

 

People aren't used to thinking outside the bounds of what we know. Independence always seems to be talked about as exactly the same as now except we're rubbish at it.

 

It could be anything we want it to be, we don't need to have the same bodies and setup. We can look at how other small countries do it, we can devolve powers to the non central belt population centres, we can set the whole thing up to benefit Scotland - right now Scotand's lucky to be an afterthought at Westminster, it's a pathetic state to be in.

 

Instead of batting away the Nos' arguments and letting them dominate the direction of the debate, maybe people need to start talking about their visions, the positives, the possibilities. Get people thinking and imagining for themselves, open up the debate.

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2 hours ago, XB52 said:

It has been answered numerous times but that means nothing to the unionists. The stated position is to start by using sterling and then, in the medium term, move to our own Scottish currency. Unionists repeating over and over again that there is no answer to the currency issue is just lies


When you say start by using Sterling that means not rejoining the EU then? 

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Absolutely not unless economic collapse and extreme hardship are desirable outcomes.  I wouldn't be sticking around in an iScotland to experience it although the misery of sudden economic reality coupled with flight of businesses, money and people over the border would be an appalling outcome for many, especially the elderly and vulnerable that the corrupt snp claim to care about.

Edited by JackLadd
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A Boy Named Crow
44 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

Absolutely not unless economic collapse and extreme hardship are desirable outcomes.  I wouldn't be sticking around in an iScotland to experience it although the misery of sudden economic reality coupled with flight of businesses, money and people over the border would be an appalling outcome for many, especially the elderly and vulnerable that the corrupt snp claim to care about.

What specifically would cause this economic collapse?

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Every other Country on earth that has become independent has managed fine. 

 

Except Scotland of course, who according to Unionists after Independence would be using penny sweets as currency instead of actual pennies, will be travelling by horse and cart and, will be living in houses built with straw. 

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7 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

The Yes/No was deemed to be favourable to Yes, by the Electoral Commission,  at the time of Brexit. 

Yes is, by definition,  positive whereas No is the opposite.  

That's why we had Leave/Remain. No chance the UK govt will sanction a referendum on the same terms as DC did. He handed all the advantages to the SNP. That won't happen again.


Thanks. I did notice a poll last week being criticised for rephrasing it as leave/remain. It would be difficult to find a totally neutral way of expressing the question. The way it was in 2014 seemed to best capture the issue at stake for me. Agree that BJ more likely than DC to fight it though.

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1 hour ago, Cruyff said:

Every other Country on earth that has become independent has managed fine. 

 

Except Scotland of course, who according to Unionists after Independence would be using penny sweets as currency instead of actual pennies, will be travelling by horse and cart and, will be living in houses built with straw. 

 

 

Is any country in the world really independent? By definition the answer is no. Scotland certainly would not be independent if we left the UK. 

 

What all this is, is to seperate from the UK, it has nothing to do with independence. Scotland would be like every other country - fully DEPENDENT.

 

The SNP want to drag us into Brussels rule. You couldn't make this shit up. Sturgeon is one of the biggest unionists on the planet. A globalist who is as far from being a 'nationalist' as possible.

 

 

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Regarding the question, the yes side always discard the potential leave /remain question as wrong as it would be confusing to the electorate. 
 

What happened to the argument that we have smart people to make an Indy Scotland work if they don’t even think we can understand a simple sentence?

 

Every time polls use this terminology, it is a large Remain win. Some intelligently-challenged people clearly vote Yes because it feels positive without necessarily understanding why. 
 

Salmond got everything his own way last time and still didn’t win. That kind of advantage should never be given again. 
 

Currency is still the biggest unknown and even the nationalists can’t agree on any of their options. There are no good options, hence why they had no plan B last time round. Richard Murphy, Tim Rideout, Andrew Wilson -All say the other’s options would be a disaster. 
 

The reason I’m more a No now than ever is the sheer volume of misinformation coming from the nationalists. They will stop at nothing to get their dream and will say anything even if not in the slightest bit true, e.g
 

“GERS are just estimates and don’t tell us anything about a future Indy Scotland” - the magnitude of estimation is tiny in the context of the amounts being discussed. 
 

”We cannot borrow and stay within our budget so don’t have a deficit” - we spend a lot more than we raise in taxes, over £2k per person. That vanishes in Indy so they should admit that there would need to be cuts

 

Margaret Ferrier, Lorna Slater, Patrick Harvie, etc. Imagine those people running our country!
 

For those that say “imagine Scotland was independent now, would you form a Union with the UK”, that is making a massive assumption that we have all the spending we have today as part of the UK as our starting point. That wouldn’t be the case. We would have to make large cuts or increase taxes to  reduce our deficit. 

 

if it happens, it happens but prepare for massive capital flight and for brain drain too. The average to well-off are not going to want to get taxed to the hilt just for a flag. Northern England will become very popular at that point!
 

 

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Having approx £300 billion debt is not independence.

 

Having approx 60% of our own laws derived or influenced by the EU is not independence.

 

Sharing an island with other countries is not independence.

 

Being involved in numerous agreements and treaties is not independence.

 

Being dependent on imports and exports from abroad is not independence.

 

Having a bulk of our projected future economy derived from a barrel of oil is not independence.

 

Sharing a currency with other nations is not independence.

 

Opening our borders to a constant flow of refugees is not independence.

 

Having trade deals with anyone is not independence.

 

 

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7 hours ago, NANOJAMBO said:

It needs to be simple - do you want to  remain shackled to the Tories & their shit show  forever (it's as bad as it was 40 years ago when they were in power then ) or do you want political, economic freedom & reform ?

 

Let the unionists persuade the people of the benefits of the union. Let the Tories , Labour  & Lib Dems tour Scotland and sell it. 

 

If people are still kidding themselves  they're somehow in favour of indy if only they could resolve ALL the unkowns then the vote will be lost. These people will never be won over

It's quite simple : you want freedom, political reform , independence and true control . Or you don't. 

 

The argument needs to be reframed. 

 

 

 

I say that to people often. If you want to know in advance and without doubt what colour the notes and coins in your purse are going to be, and if that’s the deal breaker, you should vote NO because it’s unlikely anyone will know for certain. It’s a daft and relatively unimportant reason to vote NO if you ask me but no doubt plenty will for that very reason.

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4 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

Having approx £300 billion debt is not independence.

 

Having approx 60% of our own laws derived or influenced by the EU is not independence.

 

Sharing an island with other countries is not independence.

 

Being involved in numerous agreements and treaties is not independence.

 

Being dependent on imports and exports from abroad is not independence.

 

Having a bulk of our projected future economy derived from a barrel of oil is not independence.

 

Sharing a currency with other nations is not independence.

 

Opening our borders to a constant flow of refugees is not independence.

 

Having trade deals with anyone is not independence.

 

 

I think it’s true that most people who don’t care to explore and find out about the issues and understand them, will simply vote NO

 

Many voted for Brexit through ignorance and fake news

 

Many will vote No for the same reasons 

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2 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

I think it’s true that most people who don’t care to explore and find out about the issues and understand them, will simply vote NO

 

Many voted for Brexit through ignorance and fake news

 

Many will vote No for the same reasons 

 

 

Many will vote yes through ignorance and fake news.

 

Many voted to remain in the EU through ignorance and fake news.

 

I assume you are suggesting that only Yes voters are smart enough to compile rational thought and their opinion is of course the proper one?

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Mass immigration and the obscene and ridiculous amount of laws and restrictions were my main reasons for voting to leave the EU. I put the national security, well being and freedoms of those on our shores before anything else.

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46 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Is any country in the world really independent? By definition the answer is no. Scotland certainly would not be independent if we left the UK. 

 

What all this is, is to seperate from the UK, it has nothing to do with independence. Scotland would be like every other country - fully DEPENDENT.

 

The SNP want to drag us into Brussels rule. You couldn't make this shit up. Sturgeon is one of the biggest unionists on the planet. A globalist who is as far from being a 'nationalist' as possible.

 

 

In a self governing democracy the SNP cannot just ‘drag us’ anywhere. They can’t take us into the EU without a further referendum. I think we’d be better off having some kind of deal with the EU but not necessarily full membership (which they wouldn’t need a defending for)

 

Im not actually convinced that the SNP will form the long term Scottish government anyway. Once they secure independence, the very reason for their existence and popularity, they’d be open to far more scrutiny than they are now. I’m not convinced they have the in depth talent to run the country. They certainly don’t have the experience required and we’ll most likely have coalition governments for decades, perhaps with the SNP not being the major player.

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2 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

In a self governing democracy the SNP cannot just ‘drag us’ anywhere. They can’t take us into the EU without a further referendum. I think we’d be better off having some kind of deal with the EU but not necessarily full membership (which they wouldn’t need a defending for)

 

Im not actually convinced that the SNP will form the long term Scottish government anyway. Once they secure independence, the very reason for their existence and popularity, they’d be open to far more scrutiny than they are now. I’m not convinced they have the in depth talent to run the country. They certainly don’t have the experience required and we’ll most likely have coalition governments for decades, perhaps with the SNP not being the major player.

 

 

The SNP are a mafia. They will seek full control of the country. I actually think that as a party they are doing more damage to their cause than for it.

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1 minute ago, Longbaws said:

LEAVING THE UK WILL SAVE THE SCOTTISH NHS £350 MILLION A WEEK

 

 

 

 

I love pie in the sky.

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7 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Many will vote yes through ignorance and fake news.

 

Many voted to remain in the EU through ignorance and fake news.

 

I assume you are suggesting that only Yes voters are smart enough to compile rational thought and their opinion is of course the proper one?

Many WILL vote yes for the wrong reasons. Romantic patriotism being the major ‘wrong reason’ 

 

Leaving the EU was a complete disaster for the UK visited on us by English racists and xenophobics.

 

Id suggest EVERYONE does some sit down research before voting for the future of the country. Try first to find stuff that is truly non partisan. If you’ve thought about it seriously and you still vote No, then that’s democracy in action. If you vote No because Boris tells you we are stronger together and you don’t even question it, you’re a fool. If you vote Yes because you like the Braveheart spirit and you’re a teary romantic old flag waver you’re also a fool. 

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8 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

Still a battle to be won for fence sitters, feardies and under 24’s  but I think Boris in the last 2-3 years has gifted it to us. If it was held this year I’d expect an overwhelming YES. Answer the questions folk are worried about. Highlight the benefits. De bunk the negatives. Job done

 

I think the under 24s would vote for it now.

 

Some genuinely believed the stuff about it being the only way to stay in the EU (which was true for a short period of time) so voted to protect their European citizenship. Now that's gone and independence is the best way back in I think they'll have changed. That's the under 24s in 2014, who are now not necessarily the same people. The current under 24s may be swayed by something totally different as they won't have had such a great experience of what being in the EU brought like those a decade older.

 

It won't happen though, if it's offered up people will bottle it again. Then moan about Westminster and the will of the people.

 

I'm torn on it these days. Ideologically I'm 100% behind it, but I'm not sure you can thrive as an independent country where nearly half the people in it either don't believe it should be independent or are too afraid of the unknown. I reckon it would be a disaster.

Edited by Taffin
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