Should Scotland be an independent country?

[Unknown user]

Just now, Imaman said:

To be fair the clowns down in WestMonster are a great reason to vote Yes. However it would be help to see some of the age old questions answered. 

 

Unionists will pretend they can be convinced if X,Y,Z, when X,Y,Z are standards they would never expect of Westminster.

 

Westminster is 2 trillion in debt, and growing, it's enormous numbers. £2,000,000,000,000+ already, and growing. The interest alone is ****ing massive.

 

But unionists demand Scotland has to prove it will at least break even into the future, when there's no possible way to prove something like that.

And they act like "Scotland would have to borrow!" is a stopper.

[hughesie27]

Yas. A date to look forward to. For everyone presumably? Or is the thread still full of deniers.

[hughesie27]

1 hour ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Only one minute into her speech and her first lie 

 

 

 

A vote for SNP (or Greens) wasn't a vote for independence. It was technically a vote for an Indy referendum though. And they did win.

[Don Dan]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

Unionists will pretend they can be convinced if X,Y,Z, when X,Y,Z are standards they would never expect of Westminster.

 

Westminster is 2 trillion in debt, and growing, it's enormous numbers. £2,000,000,000,000+ already, and growing. The interest alone is ****ing massive.

 

But unionists demand Scotland has to prove it will at least break even into the future, when there's no possible way to prove something like that.

And they act like "Scotland would have to borrow!" is a stopper.

Certainly eye water numbers but my worry is we will get lumbered with a percentage of it before we even start off. We won’t be able to walk away debt free. From a purely personal point of view it’s not how I’d want to start a new life carrying a barrow full of debt. I’d need a least a plan on how we would be paying it down over the coming years (obviously based on what the debt is. To me as well getting into the EU would be a goal sooner rather than later. That in itself would be a great way to generate funds but having a market and a labour market to tap into. 

[skinnybob72]

Roll on 19th Oct 2023 when (hopefully) Sturgeon’s political career comes to an end. 
 

 

[Mikey1874]

7 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

Yas. A date to look forward to. For everyone presumably? Or is the thread still full of deniers.

 

Why a consultative Referendum only? 

 

 

[hughesie27]

5 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Why a consultative Referendum only? 

 

 

😄

[Lord Montpelier]

6 minutes ago, skinnybob72 said:

Roll on 19th Oct 2023 when (hopefully) Sturgeon’s political career comes to an end. 
 

 

She will be gone either way after a vote. Win and she hasn't got the guts to see through the management of the ramifications of it. Lose and she follows Alex Salmond down the losers path.

 

Either way she will have a cushy job lined up at the EU whilst the plebs suffer and continue to suffer from her catalogue of complete failure.

[Sarah O]

The tea towel brigade up in arms at the thought of people deciding their destiny. 

 

Delicious. 

 

The run up to 2014 was an absolutely incredible time. Full of hope, positivity, ideas and a sensational vibe in the Yes camp. 

 

Hopefully more of the same with a better result this time. 

 

Bearing in mind, in 2014 Yes started on about 25%. This time we're starting on 45. 

[Shooter McGavin]

19 minutes ago, Imaman said:

Certainly eye water numbers but my worry is we will get lumbered with a percentage of it before we even start off. We won’t be able to walk away debt free. From a purely personal point of view it’s not how I’d want to start a new life carrying a barrow full of debt. I’d need a least a plan on how we would be paying it down over the coming years (obviously based on what the debt is. To me as well getting into the EU would be a goal sooner rather than later. That in itself would be a great way to generate funds but having a market and a labour market to tap into. 

Good points raised there 👍🏻

[Boab]

12 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

She will be gone either way after a vote. Win and she hasn't got the guts to see through the management of the ramifications of it. Lose and she follows Alex Salmond down the losers path.

 

Either way she will have a cushy job lined up at the EU whilst the plebs suffer and continue to suffer from her catalogue of complete failure.

You think we're all suffering from the ineptitude of the SG right now ?

That's delusion to the power n(o) !

[Shooter McGavin]

Something that will be banged about a lot is this “A yes vote is a vote for the SNP”

 

That’s a silly argument that’s been killed time and time again, but still seems to rear it’s head.

 

I reckon an independent Scotland would, over the course of X amount of years, yield both SNP & Labour governments.

 

Either way, both are much better options than Westminster Torys, who’ve lowered standards to a point once thought to be unimaginable.

[Unknown user]

22 minutes ago, Imaman said:

Certainly eye water numbers but my worry is we will get lumbered with a percentage of it before we even start off. We won’t be able to walk away debt free. From a purely personal point of view it’s not how I’d want to start a new life carrying a barrow full of debt. I’d need a least a plan on how we would be paying it down over the coming years (obviously based on what the debt is. To me as well getting into the EU would be a goal sooner rather than later. That in itself would be a great way to generate funds but having a market and a labour market to tap into. 

 

People don't seem to realise, we're a wealthy nation. We're half the size of England with ten percent of the population. We have an over abundance of natural resources, mineral, renewable energy, water. 

 

Scotland is rich.

[Konrad von Carstein]

46 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

The problem with likes of Doogz is  that they change their minds that often that nobody knows where they stand.

 

 

Oh!

[Montgomery Brewster]

24 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Why a consultative Referendum only? 

 

 

Same as the brexit referendum in 2016. In the event of a yes vote the rest of the  uk and Scotland would sit down and agree the terms, split of debt, etc. 

[Lord Montpelier]

6 minutes ago, Boab said:

You think we're all suffering from the ineptitude of the SG right now ?

That's delusion to the power n(o) !

I do, yes. I've been in Scotland since 2004, its been going downhill continually for the last 15 years. The Nationalists and Westminster parties have a lot to answer for. But history shows me not to support nationalism, can lead to some very dark places. 

[Montgomery Brewster]

4 minutes ago, Shooter McGavin said:

Something that will be banged about a lot is this “A yes vote is a vote for the SNP”

 

That’s a silly argument that’s been killed time and time again, but still seems to rear it’s head.

 

I reckon an independent Scotland would, over the course of X amount of years, yield both SNP & Labour governments.

 

Either way, both are much better options than Westminster Torys, who’ve lowered standards to a point once thought to be unimaginable.

Is correct. The snp would splinter for sure. They would probably end up a national middle of the road party made up of centre / centre left/ centre right . A broad church.
 

some would rejoin Labour , some to other parties . 

[skinnybob72]

The SNP have had 8 years since the last referendum so they should have had time to answer a lot of the ‘unknowns’ that would have dissuaded some from voting Yes. Such as 

 

what currency will we be using?

how do we set up a central bank?

are we guaranteed to get back into the EU immediately?

will we join NATO?

how much will it cost to set up our own HMRC, DVLA, etc?

do we take a %age of the UK’s debt with us? If so, how much? 
what happens to Faslane if the UK Gov move operations south? 
will we have a hard border with England?
 

We’re still seeing massive downside impacts of Brexit, with a lot of promises turning out to be lies. Why should we believe that Independence will be different?
 

I’m not for one moment suggesting the UK is in a good place but unless we can guarantee that an independent Scotland will be a better place to live and work then I will be voting NO. I’m not up for another leap into the unknown.  

 

[ri Alban]

[Boab]

Just now, Lord Montpelier said:

I do, yes. I've been in Scotland since 2004, its been going downhill continually for the last 15 years. The Nationalists and Westminster parties have a lot to answer for. But history shows me not to support nationalism, can lead to some very dark places. 

So, not just the SG ?

Thanks for clarifying !

[EH11_2NL]

[Lord Montpelier]

5 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

People don't seem to realise, we're a wealthy nation. We're half the size of England with ten percent of the population. We have an over abundance of natural resources, mineral, renewable energy, water. 

 

Scotland is rich.

Something I hope to see plans on how to capitalise on this, if true. 

 

If Scotland being rich means I will be a lot better off, sign me up. 

 

Tartan capitalism, love it. 

[jambomjm74]

7 minutes ago, Sarah O said:

The tea towel brigade up in arms at the thought of people deciding their destiny. 

 

Delicious. 

 

The run up to 2014 was an absolutely incredible time. Full of hope, positivity, ideas and a sensational vibe in the Yes camp. 

 

Hopefully more of the same with a better result this time. 

 

Bearing in mind, in 2014 Yes started on about 25%. This time we're starting on 45. 

Stuck on 45 since 2014

even with Brexit / Boris / Covid.. The Majority of Scots don’t want this vote, the proposal is at the wrong time. 
I wouldn’t get too excited, the legal case will take years and most likely resolve in the fact that only West Minster has the power to issue the sect 30 mandate. The court backlog and times to progress complex cases shouldn’t encourage you. 
The plan B, pretend referendum has been binned as it wouldn’t be legally binding and be consultative only ie a big pretence. 
The general election as a tool, again that’s pie in the sky stuff. 

Looking objectively, this is all about more and more grievance and stoking the fire as the polls state Yes is stuck as the minority view, and the vast majority do not want a referendum next year. COVID / cost of living / WW3 with Russia (being played out in Ukraine)

Objectively, Nicola is just stringing the faithful along.. 

 

[Lord Montpelier]

Just now, Boab said:

So, not just the SG ?

Thanks for clarifying 

My initial point was about Sturgeon and her leadership qualities / aspirations. Like others in Westminster, she craves power and abdicates responsibility. 

[Korky]

Can’t believe the Electoral Commission are, once again, going to allow such a flawed question. Perhaps it’s writ doesn’t extend to Scotland?

 

The Commission’s advice to MPs prior to the EU referendum was to avoid any question requiring a Yes or No response.

Even students submitting small scale undergraduate dissertations are recommended to avoid Yes/No questions due to their inherent self-fulfilling bias.

A fairer question would explicitly mention BOTH alternatives, for example:

Should Scotland became an independent country or remain part of the United Kingdom?

The choices then being:

Become an independent country

or

Remain part of the UK.
 

 

[manaliveits105]

2 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Only one minute into her speech and her first lie 

 

 

 

Clown heels is a serial liar 

the separatists dreaming of New Smurfland with Glascow as the new capital will be scattered at any consultative referendum by the real Scots 

[Boab]

2 minutes ago, jambomjm74 said:

Stuck on 45 since 2014

even with Brexit / Boris / Covid.. The Majority of Scots don’t want this vote, the proposal is at the wrong time. 
I wouldn’t get too excited, the legal case will take years and most likely resolve in the fact that only West Minster has the power to issue the sect 30 mandate. The court backlog and times to progress complex cases shouldn’t encourage you. 
The plan B, pretend referendum has been binned as it wouldn’t be legally binding and be consultative only ie a big pretence. 
The general election as a tool, again that’s pie in the sky stuff. 

Looking objectively, this is all about more and more grievance and stoking the fire as the polls state Yes is stuck as the minority view, and the vast majority do not want a referendum next year. COVID / cost of living / WW3 with Russia (being played out in Ukraine)

Objectively, Nicola is just stringing the faithful along.. 

 

It's not really objective, is it ? It's your opinion.

52.5% No to 47.5% Yes in the latest poll is not the vast majority.

[Shooter McGavin]

6 minutes ago, Montgomery Brewster said:

Is correct. The snp would splinter for sure. They would probably end up a national middle of the road party made up of centre / centre left/ centre right . A broad church.
 

some would rejoin Labour , some to other parties . 

Agree with that mate.

 

Independence is obviously SNP’s main goal, that’s why they get such an enormous support, but if they were to achieve that, then I believe naturally people will go “okay, what now?” 
 

And it’ll lead to a competitive environment for the two parties aforementioned. Both aiming to be as attractive to the Scottish electorate as possible.

 

Something that we just are not seeing in Westminster, at this moment in time.

[Boab]

2 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

My initial point was about Sturgeon and her leadership qualities / aspirations. Like others in Westminster, she craves power and abdicates responsibility. 

Of course she does, she's a politician !

That doesn't mean the hardships most people are suffering right now is down to the SG...because it isn't !

Which was my only point. Trying to infer it is, is wrong on many levels.

[Mikey1874]

10 minutes ago, Boab said:

It's not really objective, is it ? It's your opinion.

52.5% No to 47.5% Yes in the latest poll is not the vast majority.

 

That’s the question about independence. 

 

The poster you quoted referred to holding a Referendum. 

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Mikey1874

[Boab]

3 minutes ago, Shooter McGavin said:

Agree with that mate.

 

Independence is obviously SNP’s main goal, that’s why they get such an enormous support, but if they were to achieve that, then I believe naturally people will go “okay, what now?” 
 

And it’ll lead to a competitive environment for the two parties aforementioned. Both aiming to be as attractive to the Scottish electorate as possible.

 

Something that we just are not seeing in Westminster, at this moment in time.

Dugdale kinda broke rank when she spoke of a 2nd Indy Ref and I welcomed that from a Labour politician. 

Would anyone in the opposition parties be so bold or are they hedging their bets ?

My money's on the latter going by my experience of politicians.

[graygo]

52 minutes ago, skinnybob72 said:

Roll on 19th Oct 2023 when (hopefully) Sturgeon’s political career comes to an end. 
 

 

I'm not sure it will be, I think she might stay on after delivering an independent Scotland.

[jambomjm74]

14 minutes ago, Boab said:

It's not really objective, is it ? It's your opinion.

52.5% No to 47.5% Yes in the latest poll is not the vast majority.

Vast majority referred to wanting a referendum next year … that is factually correct 

[Lord Montpelier]

1 minute ago, graygo said:

 

I'm not sure it will be, I think she might stay on after delivering an independent Scotland.

She won't. As soon as the going gets tough (which it will, quickly) and fingers start pointing in her direction she and Mr Murrell will be off to Geneva whilst the plebs eat grass and twigs for breakfast. 

[dobmisterdobster]

https://www.scotsman.com/health/abortion-summit-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-says-scottish-government-considering-test-council-to-enact-legislation-on-buffer-zones-3746831

 

Setting up buffer zones because of a court case in America?  Scottish Government creating an invisible enemy once again to distract from their own failures.

[ri Alban]

WM are no better than Russia if they don't grant a section 30. 

But a UDI is on the table at last.  

 

Roll on next October and independence.  

 

 

No more Tories!

[Boab]

6 minutes ago, jambomjm74 said:

Vast majority referred to wanting a referendum next year … that is factually correct 

Well, you go with Survation polls and I'll go with JKB !

[ri Alban]

4 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

https://www.scotsman.com/health/abortion-summit-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-says-scottish-government-considering-test-council-to-enact-legislation-on-buffer-zones-3746831

 

Setting up buffer zones because of a court case in America?  Scottish Government creating an invisible enemy once again to distract from their own failures.

Women are being attacked at at abortion clinics in Scotland. That's why they need them.

[Pasquale for King]

23 minutes ago, Shooter McGavin said:

Agree with that mate.

 

Independence is obviously SNP’s main goal, that’s why they get such an enormous support, but if they were to achieve that, then I believe naturally people will go “okay, what now?” 
 

And it’ll lead to a competitive environment for the two parties aforementioned. Both aiming to be as attractive to the Scottish electorate as possible.

 

Something that we just are not seeing in Westminster, at this moment in time.

I think the other two would need to be rebranded somehow and actually run from Scotland, the Greens are separate in different countries for example. 

[ri Alban]

If labour campaigned on a second referendum to re-enter the EU and won the GE. Who grants them the power to do so?

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, Boab said:

Well, you go with Survation polls and I'll go with JKB !

I made that mistake with social media in 2014 . I was a member of various Yes groups etc and only read info / arguments for a Yes , meanwhile there was a massive groundswell of no voters whom I hadn’t had any debate with . However they were the silent majority , as evidenced at the result . Nice to be less “ passionate “  and worked up about it this time .

[Riccarton3]

Pow-ah in the hands of the Scots

[ri Alban]

Just now, JudyJudyJudy said:

I made that mistake with social media in 2014 . I was a member of various Yes groups etc and only read info / arguments for a Yes , meanwhile there was a massive groundswell of no voters whom I hadn’t had any debate with . However they were the silent majority , as evidenced at the result . Nice to be less “ passionate “  and worked up about it this time .

I actually believe you James, man alive didn't vote yes and is kidding no-one. Hopefully you vote yes again, James. We need to sail our own ship, before we sink.

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Women are being attacked at at abortion clinics in Scotland. That's why they need them.

What women ? Those with  or without a a penis ? Hard to keep up to speed with SNP ideology . Also your the guy who referred to Serena Williams as a “ he” so your hardly a radical feminist . 

 

[Boab]

1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

I made that mistake with social media in 2014 . I was a member of various Yes groups etc and only read info / arguments for a Yes , meanwhile there was a massive groundswell of no voters whom I hadn’t had any debate with . However they were the silent majority , as evidenced at the result . Nice to be less “ passionate “  and worked up about it this time .

Yip. 

Read my posts on this, mate. 

It's still up in the air.

We both agree, though, that it won't go away until there is another vote. 

Bring it on, I say.

[jambomjm74]

6 minutes ago, Boab said:

Well, you go with Survation polls and I'll go with JKB !

 The polls on yes / no have been up and down, that wasn’t my point. 
I’m pointing out the timing, which I clarified and you ignored.  Unsurprisingly it is not on the majority of peoples lists for next year.

Anyways this is a big wheeze, the Oct 23 date is never going to see a referendum and she knows it …  It makes great headlines and stirs up the pot nicely, which is what she wants here.
More and more division and bad feeling… 

[dobmisterdobster]

2 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

What women ? Those with  or without a a penis ? Hard to keep up to speed with SNP ideology . Also your the guy who referred to Serena Williams as a “ he” so your hardly a radical feminist . 

 

 

Has there been a single case of a woman being attacked at an abortion clinic in Scotland? We are not Utah or Mississippi.

[JudyJudyJudy]

5 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

I actually believe you James, man alive didn't vote yes and is kidding no-one. Hopefully you vote yes again, James. We need to sail our own ship, before we sink.

Well you never know 😂😂😂

[Boab]

Just now, jambomjm74 said:

 The polls on yes / no have been up and down, that wasn’t my point. 
I’m pointing out the timing, which I clarified and you ignored.  Unsurprisingly it is not on the majority of peoples lists for next year.

Anyways this is a big wheeze, the Oct 23 date is never going to see a referendum and she knows it …  It makes great headlines and stirs up the pot nicely, which is what she wants here.
More and more division and bad feeling… 

I'm not ignoring it. Far from it.

1,057 people doesn't tell me anything...even if it was 100% yes to a poll next year.

[JudyJudyJudy]

5 minutes ago, Boab said:

Yip. 

Read my posts on this, mate. 

It's still up in the air.

We both agree, though, that it won't go away until there is another vote. 

Bring it on, I say.

I’m in complete agreement , bring it on  in genuinely intrigued how the Yes campaign will answer some of the burning issue post Indy , currency ,EU membership etc