Should Scotland be an independent country?

[Pasquale for King]

2 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

It’s cause we didn’t have enough money apparently but strangely if we become Indy then we will ? How. ? 

Borrowing against future resources, like the U.K. did for decades on the oil that’s supposed to have run our but Cambo and Jackdaw are still viable apparently? 

[Pans Jambo]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

Far far worse as rUK is our biggest trading partner.  How many financial sector jobs as an example will disappear overnight over the border?

 

The majority of their customers, suppliers, and supporting businesses will be outside Scotland.

Here we go. All the banks will close blah blah blah. Same ole Horseshit!!!

 

Regardless of where the markets are, will They stop trading with Scotland because of Independence? Seriously? How does any other country on the planet trade with anyone???

 

No, not Scotland though. 
 

Before anyone else starts, they wont switch off your mobile signal either!!!

[Montgomery Brewster]

Let’s deal with the facts and not the the Right wing Uk press which peddle the various myths that Scotland would struggle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ked]

16 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Think it’s 70% trade to England 

59% to the rest of UK

I tried to find Englands export to Scotland.

Couldn't.

 

[Pasquale for King]

Just now, JudyJudyJudy said:

I always thought Diana Dors was stunning when she was older and she had some weight about her . Lovely person too . 

Definitely, give me Marilyn Monroe over Kate Moss any day of the week. Oedipus complex I think. 

[Pans Jambo]

1 minute ago, Ked said:

59% to the rest of UK

I tried to find Englands export to Scotland.

Couldn't.

 

I have worked for English based companies since 2010. They send products and services to Scotland. Which also means Scotland sends money to England. Why would that stop???

[Ked]

Just now, Pans Jambo said:

Here we go. All the banks will close blah blah blah. Same ole Horseshit!!!

 

Regardless of where the markets are, will They stop trading with Scotland because of Independence? Seriously? How does any other country on the planet trade with anyone???

 

No, not Scotland though. 
 

Before anyone else starts, they wont switch off your mobile signal either!!!

Wouldn't be a bad thing .

Too many on their phones.

 

Scotland becoming a stronger economy would attract investment.

Right now Scotland is what I would describe as a dependency economy.

Believe it or not some see that  as justifying staying part of the Union.

Surprisingly used by conservatives.

I just don't get it.

As a conservative.

[Pasquale for King]

4 minutes ago, Montgomery Brewster said:

Let’s deal with the facts and not the the Right wing Uk press which peddle the various myths that Scotland would struggle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Keep them coming mate 👍🏽

[Ked]

1 minute ago, Pans Jambo said:

I have worked for English based companies since 2010. They send products and services to Scotland. Which also means Scotland sends money to England. Why would that stop???

It wouldn't.

In the same way it hasn't after brexit.

Difficulties yes stopped no.

 

[Montgomery Brewster]

2 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Here we go. All the banks will close blah blah blah. Same ole Horseshit!!!

 

Regardless of where the markets are, will They stop trading with Scotland because of Independence? Seriously? How does any other country on the planet trade with anyone???

 

No, not Scotland though. 
 

Before anyone else starts, they wont switch off your mobile signal either!!!

😅 true story lol. The sun , daily Mail and express headline writers will be frothing at the mouth already. 
 

sadly people cannot see that these right wing papers are peddlers of the various myths and throw enough nonsense continually that they think it

must be true. Coz the daily Mail said so. 😵‍💫

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Montgomery Brewster said:

Ireland has a fraction of the natural resources of what lies / in and around Scotland. They are doing quite nicely thank you. 
 

Probably not the best example, given that the UK helped bail them out

[Ked]

4 minutes ago, Montgomery Brewster said:

😅 true story lol. The sun , daily Mail and express headline writers will be frothing at the mouth already. 
 

sadly people cannot see that these right wing papers are peddlers of the various myths and throw enough nonsense continually that they think it

must be true. Coz the daily Mail said so. 😵‍💫

I just posted a link from the express which alluded to companies moving to Scotland for cheaper power due to our renewables.

Just saying

[Taffin]

Good developments, personally think the real window of opportunity has been and gone (passed 12-18 months) though but hopefully they can build a strong case for it.

[i wish jj was my dad]

11 minutes ago, Montgomery Brewster said:

Ireland has a fraction of the natural resources of what lies / in and around Scotland. They are doing quite nicely thank you. 
 

I agree. We would start from a much stronger position and it is probably true that no country has ever been better prepared for independence. 

On the other hand I don't think Ireland really enjoyed any real levels of prosperity until the 90s. In other words a lifetime

I doubt it would take us quite as long but even a decade or generation of deeper austerity than the last 10-12 years is a bitter pill. I'm not sure if the population is up for that. Even if the prize is a much fairer, progressive society. 

[Lord Montpelier]

3 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I agree. We would start from a much stronger position and it is probably true that no country has ever been better prepared for independence. 

On the other hand I don't think Ireland really enjoyed any real levels of prosperity until the 90s. In other words a lifetime

I doubt it would take us quite as long but even a decade or generation of deeper austerity than the last 10-12 years is a bitter pill. I'm not sure if the population is up for that. Even if the prize is a much fairer, progressive society. 

I wouldn't be up for that. And more importantly neither would my kids. It either works economically from day 1 for everyone or it's a no from me. 

[Ked]

3 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I agree. We would start from a much stronger position and it is probably true that no country has ever been better prepared for independence. 

On the other hand I don't think Ireland really enjoyed any real levels of prosperity until the 90s. In other words a lifetime

I doubt it would take us quite as long but even a decade or generation of deeper austerity than the last 10-12 years is a bitter pill. I'm not sure if the population is up for that. Even if the prize is a much fairer, progressive society. 

10 years after the UK.

People forget the state of the UK pre Thatcher.

That's not an argument for remaining in the UK but an argument for independence under a low tax Conservative Scotland where we stand on our own two feet.

And get ourselves out of the benefit trap.

[Montgomery Brewster]

Quite a few people posting about economics / money / we are all

Doomed / decades of depression. 
 

I prefer to deal with facts. Not made up Daily Mail soundbites which folk trot out at length. 
 

this one from a professor of economics who will have a much better understanding of the balance of trade payments and the like. And has nothing to gain either way - just facts. 
 

 

[jambomjm74]

23 minutes ago, Montgomery Brewster said:

Ireland has a fraction of the natural resources of what lies / in and around Scotland. They are doing quite nicely thank you. 
 

Assume you know that you need to have more qualifying years in Ireland to obtain the full pension.. 

also many other differences in benefits and pension allowances. 
My point is that pulling selective facts doesn’t always prove a point. 
The bottom line is you wither pay more in contributions or tax at a higher rate, you can then pay higher pensions / benefits… 

[Nucky Thompson]

13 minutes ago, Montgomery Brewster said:

😅 true story lol. The sun , daily Mail and express headline writers will be frothing at the mouth already. 
 

sadly people cannot see that these right wing papers are peddlers of the various myths and throw enough nonsense continually that they think it

must be true. Coz the daily Mail said so. 😵‍💫

If you think that an independent Scotland would be some left wing utopia then you're deluded.

 

It would eventually become more right wing than England

[Lord Montpelier]

27 minutes ago, Montgomery Brewster said:

Ireland has a fraction of the natural resources of what lies / in and around Scotland. They are doing quite nicely thank you. 
 

So that's the comparison done. But what's the reality in an independent Scotland . The SNP need to provide those answers instead of fluff like this. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

49 minutes ago, FWJ said:

 

I voted ‘yes’ last time - after quite a bit of thought - and probably will again, but I hate that if you dare express any doubt about an any aspect of independence there is quite a few who will just mock you as a ‘yoon’. 
 

If more supporters of independence spent time explaining their views and addressing the concerns of wavering voters rather than just hurling insults about I’m sure they could persuade more to vote ‘yes’.

 

And, yeah yeah it works the other way too.

 

 

This is where I am at too. Some of the shit I put up with last time around really boiled my pish. All because I had the impertinence to want to make my own mind up before voting.

[Lord Montpelier]

2 minutes ago, Montgomery Brewster said:

Quite a few people posting about economics / money / we are all

Doomed / decades of depression. 
 

I prefer to deal with facts. Not made up Daily Mail soundbites which folk trot out at length. 
 

this one from a professor of economics who will have a much better understanding of the balance of trade payments and the like. And has nothing to gain either way - just facts. 
 

 

More fluff in my view. Could easily find someone to say the opposite and stick it on a poster. Proper facts needed. 

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

If you think that an independent Scotland would be some left wing utopia then you're deluded.

 

It would eventually become more right wing than England

 

Well that's a Yes from you then

[hughesie27]

How many pages by October 23? I'm going for 600

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Montgomery Brewster said:

Quite a few people posting about economics / money / we are all

Doomed / decades of depression. 
 

I prefer to deal with facts. Not made up Daily Mail soundbites which folk trot out at length. 
 

this one from a professor of economics who will have a much better understanding of the balance of trade payments and the like. And has nothing to gain either way - just facts. 
 

 

He also said Indy would be 10x worse than Brexit. 

[Montgomery Brewster]

3 minutes ago, Ked said:

10 years after the UK.

People forget the state of the UK pre Thatcher.

That's not an argument for remaining in the UK but an argument for independence under a low tax Conservative Scotland where we stand on our own two feet.

And get ourselves out of the benefit trap.

In the new Scotland - all parties will be able to project new policies that look after the 5.5 million people here and not skewed to London and the South east. 
 

once we decide to get off our knees and stand on our own 2 feet we can concentrate on what’s best for us. 

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, Montgomery Brewster said:

Quite a few people posting about economics / money / we are all

Doomed / decades of depression. 
 

I prefer to deal with facts. Not made up Daily Mail soundbites which folk trot out at length. 
 

this one from a professor of economics who will have a much better understanding of the balance of trade payments and the like. And has nothing to gain either way - just facts. 
 

 

 

Selective quoting of random overseas academics nobody has heard of won't convince anybody.

 

Will we be worse off and if so, how much and for how long?

[JudyJudyJudy]

32 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Christina is some woman 😆

Oh she is 

[Lord Montpelier]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

Selective quoting of random overseas academics nobody has heard of won't convince anybody.

 

Will we be worse off and if so, how much and for how long?

Spot on Frank. Too much fluff being posted already. Proper facts please. 

[Montgomery Brewster]

2 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

More fluff in my view. Could easily find someone to say the opposite and stick it on a poster. Proper facts needed. 

What about this fact ? But somehow Scotland would be worse off despite having a wealth of natural resources that most countries in the world would bite our hand off for. 
 

 

 

 

[Lord Montpelier]

4 minutes ago, Montgomery Brewster said:

In the new Scotland - all parties will be able to project new policies that look after the 5.5 million people here and not skewed to London and the South east. 
 

once we decide to get off our knees and stand on our own 2 feet we can concentrate on what’s best for us. 

It's this sort of vague rhetoric that put people off in the last once in a generation vote. They want to know what it means to their households , lives and livelihoods, now. 

[Lord Montpelier]

4 minutes ago, Montgomery Brewster said:

What about this fact ? But somehow Scotland would be worse off despite having a wealth of natural resources that most countries in the world would bite our hand off for. 
 

 

 

 

Our economy is intrinsically linked to the UK for import and export volumes. With respect, Botswana in 1966 probably wasn't. Again, this is fluff - propaganda for those easily persuaded. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Lord Montpelier

[i wish jj was my dad]

5 minutes ago, Ked said:

10 years after the UK.

People forget the state of the UK pre Thatcher.

That's not an argument for remaining in the UK but an argument for independence under a low tax Conservative Scotland where we stand on our own two feet.

And get ourselves out of the benefit trap.

I don't want to derail this but while  i appreciate that 60s and 70s UK was a place of strife with fairly low levels of income, it was Thatcher that created the benefits culture by ripping the arse out-of industries and our manufacturing base without giving a flying **** what would happen on the people that worked in them and the communities that relied on them. That callous disregard for those communities was what created the dependence on benefits that is still with some families 40 years later. It also handicaps us to a great extent because we don't have much of a manufacturing base to support a scottish economy in the future. 

 

 

[Ked]

6 minutes ago, Montgomery Brewster said:

In the new Scotland - all parties will be able to project new policies that look after the 5.5 million people here and not skewed to London and the South east. 
 

once we decide to get off our knees and stand on our own 2 feet we can concentrate on what’s best for us. 

I agree.

Not only take responsibilty for what in our best interests but take responsibilty about our failings.

 

Again this is what I do not get about Scottish conservatives.

If you are conservative minded why would you oppose independence?

[Montgomery Brewster]

Just now, Lord Montpelier said:

It's this sort of vague rhetoric that put people off in the last once in a generation vote. They want to know what it means to their households , lives and livelihoods, now. 

Once in a generation - another Daily Mail headline.

 

why is that one part of the Uk Can have a 7 year referendum rule written into an international treaty ( Belfast agreement ) but another is not allowed the same respect  (minus the treaty obviously). ?

 

over the coming months the Scottish Government will publish the nitty gritty that will help people form their opinion going forward. 
 

i would also like to see more updated information that will help undecided people formulate their opinion. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

17 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

If you think that an independent Scotland would be some left wing utopia then you're deluded.

 

It would eventually become more right wing than England

How so? 

[Ked]

1 minute ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Our economy is intrinsically linked to the UK for import and export volumes. With respect, Botswana in 1966 probably wasn't. Again, this is fluff - propaganda for those easily persuaded. 

What does that mean?

 

Our exports are predominantly to England yes.

But that doesn't mean we are doomed should we govern ourselves.

Can you explain how trade and our exports would cease?

How would importation of goods cease?

Brexit has thrown up some real wobblers but hasn't seen a grind to a halt.

I know the usual suspects on here would have you believe that and it's been bad for business but its far from insurmountable.

 

[frankblack]

8 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

It's this sort of vague rhetoric that put people off in the last once in a generation vote. They want to know what it means to their households , lives and livelihoods, now. 

 

Precisely.  Good luck getting the SNP to give an honest answer.

[Irufushi]

Does anyone else feel like they can’t be doing with this right now?  (If it goes ahead). I’m not overly fussed what way it goes this time, I’ll probably not bother voting. 

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, Ked said:

What does that mean?

 

Our exports are predominantly to England yes.

But that doesn't mean we are doomed should we govern ourselves.

Can you explain how trade and our exports would cease?

How would importation of goods cease?

Brexit has thrown up some real wobblers but hasn't seen a grind to a halt.

I know the usual suspects on here would have you believe that and it's been bad for business but its far from insurmountable.

 

 

They wouldn't cease but would be subject to tariffs if Scotland joined the EU and potentially becone more expensive than competitors.

[The Mighty Thor]

14 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

How many pages by October 23? I'm going for 600

Probably about 6000

 

The last 4 pages have been the hysterical wailing of the unionist circle jerkers spouting the routinely disproved 2014 bullshit interspersed with half truths, nonsense and stuff they just made up. 

 

I'd expect many hundreds more such pages as the UK slips further down the shitter and the realisation of the inevitability of it all starts to permeate into their little heads. 

 

They've got nothing. The UK has got nothing. 

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, Irufushi said:

Does anyone else feel like they can’t be doing with this right now?  (If it goes ahead). I’m not overly fussed what way it goes this time, I’ll probably not bother voting. 

 

There is zero point voting as its little more than an opinion poll without a Section 30 order to enforce it.

[Ked]

14 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Selective quoting of random overseas academics nobody has heard of won't convince anybody.

 

Will we be worse off and if so, how much and for how long?

It rather depends imo of the government we elect after.

Some left wing high tax high spend and we will be down the tubes.

A low tax frugal business friendly conscious government that does what I believe Scotland does best .

No nonsense stuff.

Then we can do better.

Englands politics are a mess.

Oxbridge money grabbing sell outs that seem to lack any kind of public decency or integrity.

We really need to stand on our own and reflect what I think is a definite mindset.

Stunted by a depend culture on a giro from England.

[Ked]

3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

They wouldn't cease but would be subject to tariffs if Scotland joined the EU and potentially becone more expensive than competitors.

We aren't part of the EU.

But if we were tariffs are tariffs.

Potentially is exactly the word .

Because unless Scotland governs itself its potential is stunted by our yearly giro.

 

Frank I am not a kilted facepainting tube.

But I do believe in a mindset that's not healthy for Scottish people.

It's apparent in most measures for the last 60 years plus.

[FWJ]

More than 3/4 of Canada’s exports go to its southern neighbour.

Edited June 28, 2022 by FWJ

[Lord Montpelier]

10 minutes ago, Montgomery Brewster said:

Once in a generation - another Daily Mail headline.

 

why is that one part of the Uk Can have a 7 year referendum rule written into an international treaty ( Belfast agreement ) but another is not allowed the same respect  (minus the treaty obviously). ?

 

over the coming months the Scottish Government will publish the nitty gritty that will help people form their opinion going forward. 
 

i would also like to see more updated information that will help undecided people formulate their opinion. 

To be honest Monty it looks like you've just received a PowerPoint deck from SNP HQ and been told to post it on social media forums. Maybe wait for some proper info, if you want to demonstrate some critical thinking

[OTT]

15 minutes ago, Ked said:

What does that mean?

 

Our exports are predominantly to England yes.

But that doesn't mean we are doomed should we govern ourselves.

Can you explain how trade and our exports would cease?

How would importation of goods cease?

Brexit has thrown up some real wobblers but hasn't seen a grind to a halt.

I know the usual suspects on here would have you believe that and it's been bad for business but its far from insurmountable.

 

 

Canada do 70% of their trade with the USA. Just because you do a lot of trade with a country doesn't justify a Union which is pissing all over any notion of democracy. 

 

Think I've said this before earlier in the thread, so apologies for repeating myself, joining EFTA rather than the EU might be better in the short to medium term as we unhook ourselves from the UK and develop stronger trading relations with Ireland, the Scandinavian countries and the rest of Europe (and world). We'd likely be free to negotiate a deal with the UK which kept the flow of goods, its worth remembering that Scotland is Englands 2nd largest trading partner, so they've every bit to gain from a deal that would promote frictionless trade too. This idea that independence means trade with England suddenly stopping is ridiculous and laughable. 

 

Additionally, we could join EFTA in about 3 months or so. Nowhere near the amount of hoops to jump through like the EU. 

 

Edit: Source checking myself on Scotland being Englands 2nd largest trading partner, remember reading it but can't find the source and don't want to be spouting pish if its not true.  

Edited June 28, 2022 by OTT

[Lord Montpelier]

11 minutes ago, Ked said:

What does that mean?

 

Our exports are predominantly to England yes.

But that doesn't mean we are doomed should we govern ourselves.

Can you explain how trade and our exports would cease?

How would importation of goods cease?

Brexit has thrown up some real wobblers but hasn't seen a grind to a halt.

I know the usual suspects on here would have you believe that and it's been bad for business but its far from insurmountable.

 

I can't explain that Ked. It's for the SNP to demonstrate impacts to Scottish business, not me. I simply pose questions. Here's some off the top of my head -  Hard border ? Trade deals ? Custom checks? Tariffs ? Currency and exchange rate impact ? 

 

Answers needed. 

[FWJ]

26 minutes ago, Montgomery Brewster said:

In the new Scotland - all parties will be able to project new policies that look after the 5.5 million people here and not skewed to London and the South east. 
 

once we decide to get off our knees and stand on our own 2 feet we can concentrate on what’s best for us. 

But how much will it be dominated by the 2 million in Greater Glasgow?

(Genuine question & genuine concern - it could be Police “Scotland” / BBC “Scotland” writ large)

[That thing you do]

14 hours ago, Dazo said:

Don’t really disagree with that but can you truly say the snp have done the best for Scotland and her people with the powers they do have ? 
 

The answer imo is clearly no. So why should anyone trust her with more power. 

Depends on your perspective. There's no doubt that in general life is made easier by the SNP mitigating council tax, bedroom tax, not taking their salary increases, baby boxes. to name a few. Add in prescriptions, free education, bus passes and depending on your stage in life the answer to that question is yes, you can trust the SNP. That said, if you're more concerned with job creation, the trans lobby, inflation, covid etc then there's arguments to be had you cant, especially if you had a relative die in a care home. I think trust v not trust is relative to stage in life and outlook. That's my theory as there are still some that think voting Tory is a good idea but then if I was landed Gentry or a multinational business owner getting tax breaks I may think differently.

 

For me, independence is not about the SNP. Its about Governance and Economic levers. The SNP most likely wouldn't remain in power in Indy Scotland, they are a broad church that's a means to an end. I think new parties would spring up plus of course there would likely be one promoting Union again. 

 

Case in point, Id argue Scotland needs immigration due to an aging population. I used to live in a self-governing province of Korea which had its own visa and residence system, because it had unique reasons to want different things to the rest of Korea. If say we had Devo Max and a Scotland only visa could be handed out so that we had control over that (its not that hard to implement, you just check status when applying down south) and they weren't awarded based on Policy for SE England, Id probably be happy enough with autonomy within the UK. It wont ever happen though and Brexit for me is the single last straw on ever making the UK work or for it to be a Union of equals. Its time for EXBRIT