Should Scotland be an independent country?

[Ked]

7 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Although I can understand the opposite point of view, I would suggest that it's not the right time for the country (UK or Scotland) to be making decisions such as these. Very long term consequences for something that is, effectively, a grievance with extended periods (79-97 and 10-now) of corrupt, selfish and morally dubious Tory government and a well-oiled social media machine working for the SNP. In the midst of Brexit fallout, Covid recovery, China's rise/America's demise and Russia's implosion, it's a hell of a time to be breaking things and starting over, even if the status quo is understandably unpalatable to many.

Aw come on.

When ever will be the right time?

 

There's always shit happening.

To be honest it's nixy fekin kai to the environmental mess we are facing .

Doesn't mean you don't take steps to better handle the future.

And that imo means taking our decisions good but especially bad in our own house.

 

[Pans Jambo]

32 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Selective quoting of random overseas academics nobody has heard of won't convince anybody.

 

Will we be worse off and if so, how much and for how long?

Collectively, we have been worse off for 12 years now due to tory policies. Fact! And thats NOTHING to do with Scottish Idependence

[The Mighty Thor]

3 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Although I can understand the opposite point of view, I would suggest that it's not the right time for the country (UK or Scotland) to be making decisions such as these. Very long term consequences for something that is, effectively, a grievance with extended periods (79-97 and 10-now) of corrupt, selfish and morally dubious Tory government and a well-oiled social media machine working for the SNP. In the midst of Brexit fallout, Covid recovery, China's rise/America's demise and Russia's implosion, it's a hell of a time to be breaking things and starting over, even if the status quo is understandably unpalatable to many.

I can understand a huge amount of that. 

I'd counter that by saying just how much longer can Scotland survive under continuous corrupt and inept Westminster governments who do not have Scotlands interests at heart. It's way beyond grievance politics now. 

 

If you're waiting on a perfect right time, it'll never come. 

[Lord Montpelier]

Anyone know when the SNP are coming out with free stuff to start convincing voters ? I need to get to the front of the queue this time, still waiting on my free bike and laptop. 

[Ked]

8 minutes ago, FWJ said:

More than 3/4 of Canada’s exports go to its southern neighbour.

I'd bet if you look at most neighbouring countries most of their trade is local.

Most of Scotlands trade and wealth creation is internal .

Like nearly every other developed country world wide.

And in fact that's how your country is judged .

 

[Ked]

Just now, The Mighty Thor said:

I can understand a huge amount of that. 

I'd counter that by saying just how much longer can Scotland survive under continuous corrupt and inept Westminster governments who do not have Scotlands interests at heart. It's way beyond grievance politics now. 

 

If you're waiting on a perfect right time, it'll never come. 

Forget the corrupt part Thor.

That's always been .

But there's always an excuse for not being the right time to be in there.

In absolutely every walk of life.

There's no excuse .

Let's just get on with it.

Because being stuck in a rut is shit.

[Ked]

3 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Anyone know when the SNP are coming out with free stuff to start convincing voters ? I need to get to the front of the queue this time, still waiting on my free bike and laptop. 

How about let's get rid of the yearly giro you think we need to survive.

It's like signing on every 4 years.

[Lord Montpelier]

Just now, Ked said:

How about let's get rid of the yearly giro you think we need to survive.

It's like signing on every 4 years.

I'm all for private enterprise , getting people into work and having purpose in life. But what's the plan for that 

[hughesie27]

10 minutes ago, FWJ said:

But how much will it be dominated by the 2 million in Greater Glasgow?

(Genuine question & genuine concern - it could be Police “Scotland” / BBC “Scotland” writ large)

Isn't Edinburgh due to overtake Glasgow's Population in the nearish future?

[The Mighty Thor]

8 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Anyone know when the SNP are coming out with free stuff to start convincing voters ? I need to get to the front of the queue this time, still waiting on my free bike and laptop. 

Here we go with the totally made up nonsense. 

 

Only 18 more months of it to go 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

5 minutes ago, Ked said:

Forget the corrupt part Thor.

That's always been .

But there's always an excuse for not being the right time to be in there.

In absolutely every walk of life.

There's no excuse .

Let's just get on with it.

Because being stuck in a rut is shit.

I've asked it many times;

 

How many countries that have secured their independence from London have failed? 

[FWJ]

1 minute ago, hughesie27 said:

Isn't Edinburgh due to overtake Glasgow's Population in the nearish future?

‘City’ of Edinburgh v ‘City’ of Glasgow - yes, in about 30 years - but metropolitan area-wise Glasgow is still 2 or 3 times the size of Edinburgh.

[manaliveits105]

What’s the currency ? 

[Ked]

11 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

I can't explain that Ked. It's for the SNP to demonstrate impacts to Scottish business, not me. I simply pose questions. Here's some off the top of my head -  Hard border ? Trade deals ? Custom checks? Tariffs ? Currency and exchange rate impact ? 

 

Answers needed. 

Hard border means difficult trade but even with the intricacies of brexit it still happens

Trade deals are again examples by brexit.

A bit shit but not disastrous

Tariff amount to the same thing.

 

Currency

The big one.

We could if we wished use the dollar.

We will never control any currency .

London is barely able to.

What we can do is see our economy rated not on currency but by wealth held.

That comes in different guises .

 

[Smoked-Glass]

What's wrong with the 2014 one . Not been 8 years yet n ppl want another one??

 

 

[Smoked-Glass]

[Lord Montpelier]

2 minutes ago, Ked said:

Hard border means difficult trade but even with the intricacies of brexit it still happens

Trade deals are again examples by brexit.

A bit shit but not disastrous

Tariff amount to the same thing.

 

Currency

The big one.

We could if we wished use the dollar.

We will never control any currency .

London is barely able to.

What we can do is see our economy rated not on currency but by wealth held.

That comes in different guises .

 

To be fair Ked you seem to have put more thinking into this than SNP High Command. 

[Lord Montpelier]

7 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

What’s the currency ? 

Unfair question . You are asking for far too much detail  . Just 'wait and see'. 

[Dawnrazor]

3 minutes ago, Ked said:

 

 

Currency

The big one.

We could if we wished use the dollar.

We will never control any currency .

London is barely able to.

What we can do is see our economy rated not on currency but by wealth held.

That comes in different guises .

 

How could Scotland use the dollar? You can't just start printing currency of another country can you?

[That thing you do]

13 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Anyone know when the SNP are coming out with free stuff to start convincing voters ? I need to get to the front of the queue this time, still waiting on my free bike and laptop. 

 

Bit cynical there your Lordship. Scotland gets its set budget and chooses what to do with it. The "free" stuff has an opportunity cost elsewhere in the system. Depending on your perspective its money well spent or not. My mum thinks baby boxes are a waste of time, a total joke and she even went as far as "disgrace". My cousin, who just gave birth loves it and sees the value in receiving it. Its all perspective.

 

Mine is, whoever is in power will mess up from time to time and its better to be our own country where we can vote them out if we are unhappy than accept getting them anyway because our neighbours disagree with us. The fact is Scotland and England are miles apart politically (to be honest, Scotland and Northern England) and the only good thing is in Scotland we actually have an opportunity to do something about it.

 

I get the stronger together thing, the family bonds etc, but I dont buy it as a reason to exist on what England wants for eternity. My wife is Mexican and I have family in US, New Zealand, Mexico and Thailand. I dont expect they will all join a Union with England though, so I accept borders are what they are.

[Lord Montpelier]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

How could Scotland use the dollar? You can't just start printing currency of another country can you?

One would imagine the White House might have something to say about it. 

[Montgomery Brewster]

31 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

To be honest Monty it looks like you've just received a PowerPoint deck from SNP HQ and been told to post it on social media forums. Maybe wait for some proper info, if you want to demonstrate some critical thinking

Not at all. Have absolutely no truck with the snp and they have done a lot of good and bad when in government. 
 

just trying to balance things up before the anti Scotland / right wing press start their fear propoganda ala 2014.

[Lord Montpelier]

1 minute ago, That thing you do said:

 

Bit cynical there your Lordship. Scotland gets its set budget and chooses what to do with it. The "free" stuff has an opportunity cost elsewhere in the system. Depending on your perspective its money well spent or not. My mum thinks baby boxes are a waste of time, a total joke and she even went as far as "disgrace". My cousin, who just gave birth loves it and sees the value in receiving it. Its all perspective.

 

Mine is, whoever is in power will mess up from time to time and its better to be our own country where we can vote them out if we are unhappy than accept getting them anyway because our neighbours disagree with us. The fact is Scotland and England are miles apart politically (to be honest, Scotland and Northern England) and the only good thing is in Scotland we actually have an opportunity to do something about it.

 

I get the stronger together thing, the family bonds etc, but I dont buy it as a reason to exist on what England wants for eternity. My wife is Mexican and I have family in US, New Zealand, Mexico and Thailand. I dont expect they will all join a Union with England though, so I accept borders are what they are.

I know, meant tongue in cheek. Now if I was promised a free TV, that would get my interest...

[Dawnrazor]

3 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

One would imagine the White House might have something to say about it. 

Aye, I'm perfectly willing to admit I'm wrong on it however.

It's that sort of thing I find frustrating, it's like the "we'll just carry on using the pound" argument, fair enough but can you?

Edited June 28, 2022 by Dawnrazor

[Montgomery Brewster]

3 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Your last sentence is very true, MT.

 

I think between now and October 23rd 2023, we will simply see a very circular set of arguments and very little progress will be made in the real debate. 

 

Anything within 5 or 6 % as a margin of victory for either side is unlikely to put it all to bed, too. That is, for me, a big issue. Yes wins, and almost half the country get pissed off. No wins, ditto. Some serious questions have to be asked about how we have gotten to this stage, rather than how folk can score often petty points against each other.

Very true. Hence my nickname - vote none of the above 

[FWJ]

More than 65 countries peg their currency to the US Dollar and 5 (other) countries use it.

[Lord Montpelier]

Just now, Montgomery Brewster said:

Not at all. Have absolutely no truck with the snp and they have done a lot of good and bad when in government. 
 

just trying to balance things up before the anti Scotland / right wing press start their fear propoganda ala 2014.

Good work. I do agree with one of your posts on natural resources. Great potential. But I want to see a proper plan to unlock it, costed out , revenues projected, the works. Hey - we have all that, is it too much to ask for minimal utilities bills if the grass is that green ?

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, FWJ said:

More than 65 countries peg their currency to the US Dollar and 5 (other) countries use it.

So how do they go a out it?

I presume they must have some agreement and that comes at a cost?

But I'm pretty sure you cant just declare independence then start printing the dollar?

[FWJ]

It’s not remotely unusual for one country to use another’s currency.  There’s a few countries use the SA Rand or non EU countries that use the Euro.

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, FWJ said:

It’s not remotely unusual for one country to use another’s currency.  There’s a few countries use the SA Rand or non EU countries that use the Euro.

So how do they do it and is there a cost?

[Ked]

11 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

I'm all for private enterprise , getting people into work and having purpose in life. But what's the plan for that 

Jeeso mate you asked for it😄

 

And I just spent ages typing it.

I saved myself you and the rest of kickback from the manifesto of Ked.

😄

 

 

I even got to sorting out folk letting their dugs shitting on the street.

I'm conservative buddy and while I want a safety net there's too many think life owes them a living.

That's my outlook for Scotland.

 

[Ked]

4 minutes ago, FWJ said:

It’s not remotely unusual for one country to use another’s currency.  There’s a few countries use the SA Rand or non EU countries that use the Euro.

Exactly

[Pans Jambo]

Just personally (& I wont run an Indy Scotland), what would be so wrong with using the Euro until the Scottish currency is sorted? Or even adopt the Euro? Works for Ireland, Holland, Germany etc. 🤷‍♂️

[FWJ]

2 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

So how do they do it and is there a cost?

The cost, I imagine, is being tied to the issuing country’s monetary policy.

 

But I don’t know - I’m sure someone better versed in economics can explain.

 

But it’s perfectly possible.  I’m just not sure that it’s desirable.  (Although in hyperinflation Zimbabwe it’s all that’s feasible)

[Ked]

15 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

To be fair Ked you seem to have put more thinking into this than SNP High Command. 

I doubt it.

For me the trouble is selling how I see it.

I'm afraid the idea is a more socialist state of affairs is the carrot

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, FWJ said:

The cost, I imagine, is being tied to the issuing country’s monetary policy.

 

But I don’t know - I’m sure someone better versed in economics can explain.

 

But it’s perfectly possible.  I’m just not sure that it’s desirable.  (Although in hyperinflation Zimbabwe it’s all that’s feasible)

My point is that despite people saying we could use the dollar or the pound, after 8 years why has this fundamental question not been answered?

[FWJ]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

My point is that despite people saying we could use the dollar or the pound, after 8 years why has this fundamental question not been answered?

And I think that’s a good question.

[Ked]

3 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Just personally (& I wont run an Indy Scotland), what would be so wrong with using the Euro until the Scottish currency is sorted? Or even adopt the Euro? Works for Ireland, Holland, Germany etc. 🤷‍♂️

We can use the pound mate.

There is absolutely nothing to stop us unless the central bank of England declares it illegal.

Which they could never do without declaring illegal currency.

It's an absolute red herring.

 

[FWJ]

8 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Just personally (& I wont run an Indy Scotland), what would be so wrong with using the Euro until the Scottish currency is sorted? Or even adopt the Euro? Works for Ireland, Holland, Germany etc. 🤷‍♂️

I thought any country wanting to join the EU had to adopt the Euro?

(Exceptions having been made for ‘legacy’ members like Denmark & Sweden)

Edited June 28, 2022 by FWJ

[Lord Montpelier]

1 minute ago, Ked said:

We can use the pound mate.

There is absolutely nothing to stop us unless the central bank of England declares it illegal.

Which they could never do without declaring illegal currency.

It's an absolute red herring.

 

Keep with the pound... as funnily enough that's what our major trading partner will be using so makes absolute logistical sense. 

[Japan Jambo]

5 minutes ago, FWJ said:

More than 65 countries peg their currency to the US Dollar and 5 (other) countries use it.

 

in terms of use - notably not the likes on Norway and Switzerland though... more in Ecuador and Zimbabwe territory.

 

If pegging was the preferred option surely a peg to the pound?

 

[jack D and coke]

Just now, Ked said:

We can use the pound mate.

There is absolutely nothing to stop us unless the central bank of England declares it illegal.

Which they could never do without declaring illegal currency.

It's an absolute red herring.

 

Yes we can. It wouldn’t be backed by the BoE though that is the difference. We already have all the Scottish pounds printed but if we pegged it to sterling then any interest rate rises etc that the BoE might make or they make new money it’ll affect the value of the Scottish pound. 
The Irish punt was basically a pound albeit in name. 
Not BoE backed tho. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

18 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Your last sentence is very true, MT.

 

I think between now and October 23rd 2023, we will simply see a very circular set of arguments and very little progress will be made in the real debate. 

 

Anything within 5 or 6 % as a margin of victory for either side is unlikely to put it all to bed, too. That is, for me, a big issue. Yes wins, and almost half the country get pissed off. No wins, ditto. Some serious questions have to be asked about how we have gotten to this stage, rather than how folk can score often petty points against each other.

We got to this stage by the rUK voting in Conservative Governments who were more interested in enriching their pals than worrying about the country. No Brexit, no Johnson, no using the cover of the pandemic to put more noses in the trough then the SNP have to accept referendums are once in a generation. 

Hell mend us. 

[Ked]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

My point is that despite people saying we could use the dollar or the pound, after 8 years why has this fundamental question not been answered?

I've always wondered why as well .

If its a legitimate currency no 9ne in control of it would declare it unusable.

 

My best bet is the SNP have not got their act together and have not embraced conservative ideas .

Because that's not palatable with their suppirt

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Ked said:

We can use the pound mate.

There is absolutely nothing to stop us unless the central bank of England declares it illegal.

Which they could never do without declaring illegal currency.

It's an absolute red herring.

 

Is there somewhere credible (no offence meant) that says as much?

I've heard that argument god knows how many times but is it really that simple? Surley the bank / government / underwriters would have said as much somewhere during or since the last referendum? 

 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

5 minutes ago, FWJ said:

The cost, I imagine, is being tied to the issuing country’s monetary policy.

 

But I don’t know - I’m sure someone better versed in economics can explain.

 

But it’s perfectly possible.  I’m just not sure that it’s desirable.  (Although in hyperinflation Zimbabwe it’s all that’s feasible)

The biggest cost of using someone else's currency is being able to service government debt as you have to find the resources and hold sufficient reserves of the currency you are issuing government bonds in. Indirectly, if you have a currency pegged to another you have to do the same thing. @Ulyssescan share more about the Irish currency board and how they used to peg the punt to sterling.

 

One of the reasons the Euro didn't collapse during the GFC is that German taxpayers were effectively placed on the hook to stop European banks going bust. Without that, the Euro would be bulldust.

[Pans Jambo]

Just now, FWJ said:

I thought any country wanting to join the EU had to adopt the Euro?

This has been discussed many many times. You are correct in that thats the official line; however, it seems that its not ever been enforced. The UK never used the Euro as a full member and neither does Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, Romania, and Sweden.

Who are all EU members. 

[jack D and coke]

4 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Is there somewhere credible (no offence meant) that says as much?

I've heard that argument god knows how many times but is it really that simple? Surley the bank / government / underwriters would have said as much somewhere during or since the last referendum? 

 

They said no currency union. That’s the difference. 
We can use the pound (Scots) for example no problem but we’d peg our pound to the pound (sterling) but the BoE no longer have to make decisions based on conditions that might affect Scotland. 
If they do that anyway who knows. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by jack D and coke

[FWJ]

2 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

in terms of use - notably not the likes on Norway and Switzerland though... more in Ecuador and Zimbabwe territory.

 

If pegging was the preferred option surely a peg to the pound?

 

Yes, it seems that some countries use another country’s currency because some economic catastrophe (usually hyperinflation) has befallen them.

But a lot of countries ‘peg’ their currency to their major trading partner’s - Ireland did it to Sterling right up until the decided to join the Euro.  Even their coins were identical in size & shape to ours (if I remember correctly)

[Malinga the Swinga]

Look at the utter shit show SNP made of running Edinburgh. Then imagine them allowed to run whole country with no control. They ran consultations and ignored then when answers weren't what they wanted. How exactly is that going to persuade me they can be trusted.

The handouts from SNP aren't free either. I'm paying for them by way of higher tax, yet still the collected amount going down.

They will squeeze hard workers while rewarding their core support, who seeing they get something for nothing, will be keen to see that carry on.

For those that say SNP won't carry on after independence, they're kidding themselves. Once accustomed to power, they'll act as every other politician has and lie, squeal and cheat to stay in power. Look again at Edinburgh council for example as behaviour when SNP kicked out. We had their leader refusing to leave office and being dragged out by security.

Brexit proved these break ups are a no win situation, yet those who complained loudest about that are now desperate to inflict more misery on Scotland because 1) it's this mythical freedom from oppression (does anyone really feel oppressed when they wake up). 2) it's bound to be better cause we'll make own decisions - no it isn't, it could be a lot worse and we could be inflicting decades of misery on future generations, 3) it's the Tories fault - fifty years from now we will still hear the usual suspects blaming the English for our problems, independence or not. It's a cop-out of responsibility, something our current government specialise in.

 

Will I leave Scotland if independence comes, of course not. I was born here, educated here, married here, had my kids here, worked here (bar a couple of years in Dublin) for 41 years, will retire here and most likely die here. I'm as Scottish as anyone and proud of it. 

I'll be retired and carry on with my life, and as someone who will be retired, I reckon I'm more likely to be a beneficiary of SNP rule, I could be viewed as someone who should want independence.

Just 1 thing though, I'm voting for my children and it's a leap into dark that I don't believe has been justified by SNP and independence supporters. We can vote Tories out at next election, we won't be able to reverse what could be biggest mistake ever. Some see a list generation or two as worth freedom, I think that's a selfish and cheap attitude to have.

 

Give me rock solid plans for day 1 of independence plus plans for next 30 years. Tell me and sell me the benefits. Why, how and where will we be better? That doesn't mean some SNP lackey writing an article on internet or the National. I want plans by world renowned economists, backed by plans approved by a Central Bank ( I know, we don't have one, but BofE will do). Your the ones planning the break up, your the ones wanting to break status-quo, therefore it's up to you to campaign positively and not just say Tories bad. That's not a solid enough reason, for me anyway, to leave what I know. Johnston will leave/be sacked/die at some point so him being a useless ***** isn't compelling enough. 

 

Anyway, that's where I am at. Some will agree, some will disagree. That's democracy and I'm happy that we live in country where we have freedom to argue/debate to he future. Comparing UK to Russia isn't going to win the independence vote but it could lose I to.

 

Have a good night all. Off to watch tennis highlights.