Should Scotland be an independent country?

[Pans Jambo]

50 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

This is so bloody lazy

 

Rejoining the EU

Self rule and joining the EU isn't a strange position. You wouldn't seriously argue that France, Italy, Spain, Germany or Portugal aren't Independent countries? The dynamic between them and the EU is totally different to us and the UK. We don't hold any meaningful power, EU members can veto. In the UK we can scream till we're blue in the face but if England want it, England get it. Thats just the way it is. My opinion is that its democratically unsustainable. Beyond that, Independence does not equal EU membership, its a decision that would need to be taken as a country again. For example, EFTA (European Free Trade Association) currently has many of the benefits of EU membership such as freedom of movement, as well as actually having a free trade deal with the UK. Unlike the EU membership could be achieved inside a year (likely 3-6 months) and there are no barriers to membership. 

 

Hatred of all things English

Complete and utter bollocks. Yessers are acutely aware that they're held to an impossible standard by the media and unionists. You're all desperate to prove that there is some sort of anti English conspiracy at the heart of the yes movement so it can be dismissed as 'blood and soil nationalism', but it couldn't be further from the truth. Many English people moving to Scotland are moving to Scotland to get out of the right wing nightmare that has been created south of the border. We want to convert those folks to voting yes and many of them actually are. If there was any hint of genuine anti English sentiment within the yes camp, we'd be pissing in the wind with the English vote, yet there is an English Scots for Yes group that has done some great work in convincing folks moving here from down south that independence is the best way forward. Independence will not and cannot be won by bigotry. Genuinely, the only talk of Independence = hatred of English folk is narrow minded lazy unionists that instead of attempting to justify this shambles of a union would rather make laughable accusations in the hope that mud eventually sticks. 

Excellent post. I’m wondering why none of the unionists on this thread havent responded yet. Maybe they only pick on English haters eh?

[Unknown user]

13 minutes ago, jambomjm74 said:

Those attracted to an independence poll … I’d suggest would be supporters of the poll and yes voters. 
Scottish polling is broadly 50/50 (is being generous) that includes Glasgow and Dundee who were always in favour of yes but not Edinburgh which was and has always been a No. 

 

It's fairly obvious that this site isn't representative of either the nation's, or Edinburgh's electorate. 

 

We can suggest what we reckon all day, but none of us know what the real split is for jkb members.

 

The one thing we can say for sure, is what the result of the poll above is. And at the moment No are on less than a third.

[JudyJudyJudy]

18 minutes ago, jambomjm74 said:

Has every member on this site voted.. only 300. 

I ain’t and wouldn’t as it’s a pointless question … many would avoid as it’s just not on their radar. 

The thread does attract more in favour  that certainly doesn’t mean that more are pro Indy on JKB… a fairer representation would be Edinburgh voting patterns. 

No he isn’t bang on and neither are you. 

It’s laughable to consider this poll

As accurate reflection on voting intentions re Indy . I recall when I was a big Yes in 2014 and surrounded myself with other yes people and mainly read social media postings regarding yes . I assumed we would coast to a yes victory but was sorely mistaken as I was not seeing the whole picture ie the No campaign . They certainly were the silent majority 

[jambomjm74]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

It's fairly obvious that this site isn't representative of either the nation's, or Edinburgh's electorate. 

 

We can suggest what we reckon all day, but none of us know what the real split is for jkb members.

 

The one thing we can say for sure, is what the result of the poll above is. And at the moment No are on less than a third.

Given historical Union : Orange support within hearts.. you might not like that fact !… I’d suggest that and Edinburgh voting patterns are strong indicators of local voting are more than enough. 
I know you never accept anything that detracts from Indy so this is a pointless conversation. 

[jack D and coke]

31 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Well, Elsie popped round this evening and threw all the beer out my fridge, the witch.

I’d be voting No tae fur that! 
 

[jambomjm74]

3 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

It’s laughable to consider this poll

As accurate reflection on voting intentions re Indy . I recall when I was a big Yes in 2014 and surrounded myself with other yes people and mainly read social media postings regarding yes . I assumed we would coast to a yes victory but was sorely mistaken as I was not seeing the whole picture ie the No campaign . They certainly were the silent majority 

I remember waking home and the whole place seemed like Indy with flags in windows. 
the end result was a very very resounding no in Edinburgh and very much the silent majority. 
Coming on here and being hounded by the same Yes voters isn’t pleasant and pointless .. the deaf don’t listen 

[jack D and coke]

11 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

It’s laughable to consider this poll

As accurate reflection on voting intentions re Indy . I recall when I was a big Yes in 2014 and surrounded myself with other yes people and mainly read social media postings regarding yes . I assumed we would coast to a yes victory but was sorely mistaken as I was not seeing the whole picture ie the No campaign . They certainly were the silent majority 

Well tbh only one poll showed Yes in front the whole campaign last time so I wasn’t surprised at all it was No. Id say I know as many Yes as No’s tbh.
Also bear in mind that Yes started at about 20 odd percent last time. 
This one starts neck and neck (if it happens obviously and I have my doubts it will ) so it’s a whole different ballgame this time. 

[jack D and coke]

10 minutes ago, jambomjm74 said:

I remember waking home and the whole place seemed like Indy with flags in windows. 
the end result was a very very resounding no in Edinburgh and very much the silent majority. 
Coming on here and being hounded by the same Yes voters isn’t pleasant and pointless .. the deaf don’t listen 

Nobody is hounding you mate. 
If you can’t handle a bit of robust debate about this and let’s face it it’s a fiery subject, then don’t get involved. 
Your opinion is as valid as anyone else’s. 
Don’t be so sensitive. 

[OTT]

10 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Excellent post. I’m wondering why none of the unionists on this thread havent responded yet. Maybe they only pick on English haters eh?

 

It just really annoys me, there are legitimate reasons to criticise the yes camp, but a lack inclusivity isn't one of one of them. Its lazy and it reeks of a poor attempt to say something enough times that it becomes true. 

 

I noticed none of them wanted to discuss the astronomical rise in energy bills despite the no camps assurances that we were better together and the 'broad shoulders' of the union would keep prices low. 

 

The worst possible version of the Union that we likely couldn't have imagined has happened. We're out of the EU, Boris became prime minister, energy bills are expected to rise to around £4,000 a year (up from circa £1k), we've watched the Tories and their pals use a global pandemic as an excuse to loot the UK treasury, the cost of living crisis just keeps getting worse. Wages are utterly stagnant and inflation is making the £ in your pocket worth less and less and STILL the country sits neck and neck on Independence. 

 

I cannot understand it. You read some of the comments on here and you can sense the joy in the Unionists posts as they find some Scottish government failing which they believe justifies their position. Some sort of warped 'gotcha' about how we're too wee, stupid and poor to run our own affairs. Its ****ing depressing. The worst possible future for us has happened. The opportunities the EU brought us is gone and folk still somehow believe we're better together, that we somehow couldn't do a better job of the absolute mess that has followed since 2014. 

 

The only thing I can think of is that they're so entrenched in their view that they cannot find it within themselves to actually look at the state of the country and think objectively, you know what, we could probably do a better job of this ourselves like Ireland did. 

[jambomjm74]

5 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

It just really annoys me, there are legitimate reasons to criticise the yes camp, but a lack inclusivity isn't one of one of them. Its lazy and it reeks of a poor attempt to say something enough times that it becomes true. 

 

I noticed none of them wanted to discuss the astronomical rise in energy bills despite the no camps assurances that we were better together and the 'broad shoulders' of the union would keep prices low. 

 

The worst possible version of the Union that we likely couldn't have imagined has happened. We're out of the EU, Boris became prime minister, energy bills are expected to rise to around £4,000 a year (up from circa £1k), we've watched the Tories and their pals use a global pandemic as an excuse to loot the UK treasury, the cost of living crisis just keeps getting worse. Wages are utterly stagnant and inflation is making the £ in your pocket worth less and less and STILL the country sits neck and neck on Independence. 

 

I cannot understand it. You read some of the comments on here and you can sense the joy in the Unionists posts as they find some Scottish government failing which they believe justifies their position. Some sort of warped 'gotcha' about how we're too wee, stupid and poor to run our own affairs. Its ****ing depressing. The worst possible future for us has happened. The opportunities the EU brought us is gone and folk still somehow believe we're better together, that we somehow couldn't do a better job of the absolute mess that has followed since 2014. 

 

The only thing I can think of is that they're so entrenched in their view that they cannot find it within themselves to actually look at the state of the country and think objectively, you know what, we could probably do a better job of this ourselves like Ireland did. 

The price of energy is a global crisis and being in it out of the EU or U.K. would mean very little here… it couldn’t have been predicted (covid or Russia invasion of Ukraine) 
The yes camp is a broad church, yes it’s inclusive for those that join it, those that say no and are vocal are not always treated with respect (I know that it can work both ways) and the whole thing has become poisonous. 
Entrenched is a good way to describe the whole situation with two sides in trenches.. a Scottish stand off with no real winner.  

[jack D and coke]

2 minutes ago, jambomjm74 said:

The price of energy is a global crisis and being in it out of the EU or U.K. would mean very little here… it couldn’t have been predicted (covid or Russia invasion of Ukraine) 
The yes camp is a broad church, yes it’s inclusive for those that join it, those that say no and are vocal are not always treated with respect (I know that it can work both ways) and the whole thing has become poisonous. 
Entrenched is a good way to describe the whole situation with two sides in trenches.. a Scottish stand off with no real winner.  

Yeah it’s a global problem but France and Spain have ensured the price caps aren’t ridiculous and also upping pensioners money. They obviously have nationalised energy. 
We’ve sold the lot off. 
Re-nationalise these things.
They’re basics for a life. 
Wont happen with conservative govts tho. 
England won’t vote Labour.
Neither will Scotland anymore tbh. 
We’re at an impasse. 

Just saying no to a referendum and not engaging will not make this go away.

It’s fuelling it imo. 
It’s adding to the problem and the snp make gains out of this ill admit even though I believe they’re frauds and don’t really want it. 
 

 

[OTT]

Just now, jambomjm74 said:

The price of energy is a global crisis and being in it out of the EU or U.K. would mean very little here… it couldn’t have been predicted (covid or Russia invasion of Ukraine) 
The yes camp is a broad church, yes it’s inclusive for those that join it, those that say no and are vocal are not always treated with respect (I know that it can work both ways) and the whole thing has become poisonous. 
Entrenched is a good way to describe the whole situation with two sides in trenches.. a Scottish stand off with no real winner.  

 

Not really, many of our European neighbours have taken action to tackle rising energy costs effectively, like in France, where the government can exert control over EDF to ensure French families aren't being robbed blind and pushed to the brink of poverty. Spain cut taxes on energy bills back in January to try and protect their population from what was coming. Sweden and Norway have both put aside massive amounts of money to help alleviate the pressure and plan to do even more in the winter. This is an entirely self inflicted choice. 

 

The reality is that the UK government couldn't care less. If we thought Tories were bad before Brexit, Boris's deal pushed out any of the 'good', or at least competent and principled ones and we're left with bottom of the barrel hard right brexiteers without a care in the world for the man on the street. Liz Truss is Boris without the charisma, and if anyone genuinely thinks that brain dead ****witt is going to sort out the problems in this country I have magic beans to sell them. 

 

[manaliveits105]

39 minutes ago, jambomjm74 said:

I remember waking home and the whole place seemed like Indy with flags in windows. 
the end result was a very very resounding no in Edinburgh and very much the silent majority. 
Coming on here and being hounded by the same Yes voters isn’t pleasant and pointless .. the deaf don’t listen 

Capital Silent Majority Crew ya bass 

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, manaliveits105 said:

Capital Silent Majority Crew ya bass 

I can see that written on bus stops 😆

[Boab]

1 hour ago, jambomjm74 said:

Has every member on this site voted.. only 300. 

I ain’t and wouldn’t as it’s a pointless question … many would avoid as it’s just not on their radar. 

The thread does attract more in favour  that certainly doesn’t mean that more are pro Indy on JKB… a fairer representation would be Edinburgh voting patterns. 

No he isn’t bang on and neither are you. 

If people don't want to vote...on here, or in the real world, it's not my concern. 

You can only look at who's voted. The vast majority who bothered to vote on here have said Yes. Edinburgh's voting patterns mean as much as a football messageboard in the grand scheme of things.

I don't really give a **** incidentally !

[OTT]

1 hour ago, jonesy said:

Although I'm still very much in the undecided camp, I see one of the advantages of an independent Scotland will be the greater levels of tolerance and harmony between the various political factions 🙄

 

Out of interest whats got you undecided? 

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, jambomjm74 said:

Given historical Union : Orange support within hearts.. you might not like that fact !… I’d suggest that and Edinburgh voting patterns are strong indicators of local voting are more than enough. 
I know you never accept anything that detracts from Indy so this is a pointless conversation. 

 

You don't know the numbers any better than I do buddy. The only thing we know for sure is what the poll says, it is what it is.

 

My personal interpretation is that this represents those that feel strongly one way or another, and that those in the middle are probably looking on at the nick of the union just now and likely to vote Yes after consideration.

 

But again, the only thing we know for sure is what the poll says.

[OTT]

3 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I quite like the idea of local issues being decided near to the people they have an impact on. But I couldn't give a shit about the identity/nationalist side of things. I'd as quickly join a Northumbria nation as a Scottish one. Borders are nothing more than ways of forming armies and cheap anger.

 

Also Brexit has shown how antagonistic separations (which it's undoubtedly going to be) play out - no one wins. Unless the terms are laid out very carefully beforehand, then all we're going to get is about a decade of absolute shite. Beyond that, no one knows. No one can say for any certainty whether an independent Scotland will actually be a better place to live than a Scotland in the UK. Just because Jacob Rees-Mogg would be a foreigner is unlikely to make a material difference to the wellbeing of 5 million people.

 

I would support that tbh. Take Shetland or the Western Isles for example, they'll have specific needs for their communities that they are best placed to decide on so increasing local power would definitely be something I'd like to see following Independence. Probably say the same for much of the highlands and rural communities too. 

 

I'm surprised you didn't go down the economic uncertainty route tbh, my assumption was that among undecideds that was a big area that needed work from the yes side.  

 

Thanks for replying 👍

[That thing you do]

7 hours ago, jambomjm74 said:

Current trade is virtually all with U.K.  62% export and 67% import.

Britain is one island and one people with a shared history, culture and language.. I get the Scottish stuff, I’m a proud Scot.

The brain drain would worsen.. U.K. firms and higher individually taxed. 

How wouldn’t Scexit be the same as Brexit… same barriers costs and negative impacts, with the same limited opportunities all based on we can do better on our own; which I don’t believe is the case. 

If you look at cases in Europe, Slovenia for example, which has a much weaker economy than scotland would, economic activity increased, not decreased.

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228416930_Slovenian_economy_on_the_way_from_independence_to_catching_up_average_economic_development_of_EU-27 this is from 2008.

 

Inward investment increased, not decreased. Europe wise i cant find anyone who claimed independence and didnt see it benefit them economically.

 

The Brain drain would not worsen. The reason it exists now is centralisation by Westminster on SE England. An Edinburgh recognised as a world capital (full one), in a country rejoining the eea/eu, thats welcoming to incomers is a more dynamic place than regional edinburgh.

 

As has been the case for Tallin, Vilnius, Ljubljana and countless others.

 

It isnt going to be the land of milk and honey but the data on this and historical precedents dont make staying a region of a bigger entity the better option.

 

Of course, some of this depends on quality of governance of the new Scotland. But the bar is set quite low with the tories now to assume a Scottish government could and would do as well and probably much better.

 

England wont stop trading either! 

 

I just dont see any evidence for the prophecies of doom you have. After Brexit, staying is no longer the less risky option imo.

[jack D and coke]

6 minutes ago, That thing you do said:

If you look at cases in Europe, Slovenia for example, which has a much weaker economy than scotland would, economic activity increased, not decreased.

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228416930_Slovenian_economy_on_the_way_from_independence_to_catching_up_average_economic_development_of_EU-27 this is from 2008.

 

Inward investment increased, not decreased. Europe wise i cant find anyone who claimed independence and didnt see it benefit them economically.

 

The Brain drain would not worsen. The reason it exists now is centralisation by Westminster on SE England. An Edinburgh recognised as a world capital (full one), in a country rejoining the eea/eu, thats welcoming to incomers is a more dynamic place than regional edinburgh.

 

As has been the case for Tallin, Vilnius, Ljubljana and countless others.

 

It isnt going to be the land of milk and honey but the data on this and historical precedents dont make staying a region of a bigger entity the better option.

 

Of course, some of this depends on quality of governance of the new Scotland. But the bar is set quite low with the tories now to assume a Scottish government could and would do as well and probably much better.

 

England wont stop trading either! 

 

I just dont see any evidence for the prophecies of doom you have. After Brexit, staying is no longer the less risky option imo.

This is what I mean with another indyref starting neck and neck. 
Positive and possibly over optimistic but the union side is doom and gloom. 
It’s little wonder they don’t want this. 
They lose imo. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, jambomjm74 said:

I remember waking home and the whole place seemed like Indy with flags in windows. 
the end result was a very very resounding no in Edinburgh and very much the silent majority. 
Coming on here and being hounded by the same Yes voters isn’t pleasant and pointless .. the deaf don’t listen 

Yes I felt very dejected that night . I recall once we knew one of the big results was in that was it , really . Now i haven’t the slightest interest either way . If we get Indy we get it if not I’ll not cry into my porridge unlike the last time . It has barely any significance to me really . The passion for it has gone . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

12 minutes ago, That thing you do said:

If you look at cases in Europe, Slovenia for example, which has a much weaker economy than scotland would, economic activity increased, not decreased.

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228416930_Slovenian_economy_on_the_way_from_independence_to_catching_up_average_economic_development_of_EU-27 this is from 2008.

 

Inward investment increased, not decreased. Europe wise i cant find anyone who claimed independence and didnt see it benefit them economically.

 

The Brain drain would not worsen. The reason it exists now is centralisation by Westminster on SE England. An Edinburgh recognised as a world capital (full one), in a country rejoining the eea/eu, thats welcoming to incomers is a more dynamic place than regional edinburgh.

 

As has been the case for Tallin, Vilnius, Ljubljana and countless others.

 

It isnt going to be the land of milk and honey but the data on this and historical precedents dont make staying a region of a bigger entity the better option.

 

Of course, some of this depends on quality of governance of the new Scotland. But the bar is set quite low with the tories now to assume a Scottish government could and would do as well and probably much better.

 

England wont stop trading either! 

 

I just dont see any evidence for the prophecies of doom you have. After Brexit, staying is no longer the less risky option imo.

What about  the “ quality of governance” in Scotland at the present time . Seems every other day we are at the bottom of various tables and leagues regarding various issues . It’s never ending 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

1 hour ago, jambomjm74 said:

The price of energy is a global crisis and being in it out of the EU or U.K. would mean very little here… it couldn’t have been predicted (covid or Russia invasion of Ukraine) 
The yes camp is a broad church, yes it’s inclusive for those that join it, those that say no and are vocal are not always treated with respect (I know that it can work both ways) and the whole thing has become poisonous. 
Entrenched is a good way to describe the whole situation with two sides in trenches.. a Scottish stand off with no real winner.  

 

It's undoubtedly a global crisis but it's considerably worse in the UK than it is in most of the bigger countries of Europe or the USA, and it's accelerating in the UK whereas it's starting to fall back a bit in other large economies.

 

Economists can and will spend endless hours debating the reason, but the fact remains that almost all contemporary economists of varying stripes agree that leaving a single market and creating new barriers to trade with your major trading partners, without countervaling government action, will be pretty inherently inflationary.

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yes I felt very dejected that night . I recall once we knew one of the big results was in that was it , really . Now i haven’t the slightest interest either way . If we get Indy we get it if not I’ll not cry into my porridge unlike the last time . It has barely any significance to me really . The passion for it has gone . 

I didn’t have a feeling of dejection I remember almost doubting my Yes vote near the time. Like I say I have pals who argued blind for the status quo and I thought long and hard. The fear was ramped up and that’s for another argument whether it was right or wrong. 
Id say I voted Yes more because I’d never have forgiven myself if I hadn’t tbh. Even after the No I was OK with it as the country voted and that’s fine. I’m not hell bent on Scotland going it alone but I’ll always argue we should be able to choose whenever we want if it’s what the majority of people want. 
If not it’s not a union. 
If most of the people want to remain part of Britain that’s fine with me. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

I didn’t have a feeling of dejection I remember almost doubting my Yes vote near the time. Like I say I have pals who argued blind for the status quo and I thought long and hard. The fear was ramped up and that’s for another argument whether it was right or wrong. 
Id say I voted Yes more because I’d never have forgiven myself if I hadn’t tbh. Even after the No I was OK with it as the country voted and that’s fine. I’m not hell bent on Scotland going it alone but I’ll always argue we should be able to choose whenever we want if it’s what the majority of people want. 
If not it’s not a union. 
If most of the people want to remain part of Britain that’s fine with me. 

Agreed : I’m fine either way . 

[jack D and coke]

7 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

What about  the “ quality of governance” in Scotland at the present time . Seems every other day we are at the bottom of various tables and leagues regarding various issues . It’s never ending 

Certain parts of the media will always go for them. I don’t like this SNP I really don’t but I’m sceptical of certain media outlets. 
Some parts of life here are better too. 

[Unknown user]

10 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

What about  the “ quality of governance” in Scotland at the present time . Seems every other day we are at the bottom of various tables and leagues regarding various issues . It’s never ending 

 

We can't really blame independence for what's happening within the union.

[A Boy Named Crow]

3 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

What about  the “ quality of governance” in Scotland at the present time . Seems every other day we are at the bottom of various tables and leagues regarding various issues . It’s never ending 

The quality of governance in Scotland today is irrelevant.  A new country would see a new system, new faces getting involved, different voting preferences. The obvious response though is, how do you like the quality of governance we see right now in the current set up?

 

A government in Westminster that is seemingly fine with breaking laws (both domestic and international), also fine with letting great swathes of the population fall into grim poverty, while the mates of the same government are fleecing the country all the way to the bank...

 

Don't forget,  it's the current system that dragged Scotland into the unspeakable shitshow that is Brexit.

 

An independent Scotland would have to be incredibly bad to be worse than the status quo. History of other countries gaining independence would suggest we'll be ok on that front. 

[That thing you do]

5 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

What about  the “ quality of governance” in Scotland at the present time . Seems every other day we are at the bottom of various tables and leagues regarding various issues . It’s never ending 

I cant take this part seriously when the alternative is Westminster giving billions to shipping companies with no ships, PPE contracts to pals and generally running a corrupt and morally bankrupt government backed up by the Lords.

 

I am absolutely sure as Westminster is already finding room at the bottom of the barrell to scrape Scotland can do well. I think as well the maje up of the first parliament in indy scotland will be very different (parties and people) to Holyrood now.

 

 

[That thing you do]

6 hours ago, OTT said:

 

I would support that tbh. Take Shetland or the Western Isles for example, they'll have specific needs for their communities that they are best placed to decide on so increasing local power would definitely be something I'd like to see following Independence. Probably say the same for much of the highlands and rural communities too. 

 

I'm surprised you didn't go down the economic uncertainty route tbh, my assumption was that among undecideds that was a big area that needed work from the yes side.  

 

Thanks for replying 👍

Theres plenty of people who wouldnt be on yes side if there was a path to federalism/devo max.

 

I can see an argument for regional immigration solutions and different economic policies. Scotland specific visas which are informed by regional partnerships in Scotland to target key people scotland needs.

 

(before anyone says its unworkable i worked in an autonomous area of South Korea who did it)

 

I also fully agree with previous posters about commonality with people in northern England as much as northern Scotland.

 

But heres the point.

 

Westminster wont federalise the UK ever. No use pretending otherwise.

Northumberland and the North of England have to live with that.

 

We dont. We have a lifeboat.

 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

8 hours ago, jambomjm74 said:

The price of energy is a global crisis and being in it out of the EU or U.K. would mean very little here… 

 

Global crisis you say? 

 

Like most of the excuses for the abject state of the UK it dissolves on contact with reality

 

 

 

 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

6 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

Global crisis you say? 

 

Like most of the excuses for the abject state of the UK it dissolves on contact with reality

 

 

 

 

Hmmm, I'm taking some of these figures with a grain of salt, particularly when Germany for example is applying energy restrictions on business given that it imports so much gas from Russia and the likes of Hungary are trying to do deals with Russia outside of EU sanctions. Similarly, the energy mix is a key factor. France had to import energy from the UK recently due to the European heatwave and the water to cool their nuclear reactors wasn't suitable.

 

We're in "winter" here and energy prices are rocketing, as is the cost of petrol. Does it mean it is as "bad" as the UK? No. Everything is relative but the idea that there are countries not suffering due to Russia being dicks doesn't stack up.

[The Mighty Thor]

9 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Hmmm, I'm taking some of these figures with a grain of salt, particularly when Germany for example is applying energy restrictions on business given that it imports so much gas from Russia and the likes of Hungary are trying to do deals with Russia outside of EU sanctions. Similarly, the energy mix is a key factor. France had to import energy from the UK recently due to the European heatwave and the water to cool their nuclear reactors wasn't suitable.

 

We're in "winter" here and energy prices are rocketing, as is the cost of petrol. Does it mean it is as "bad" as the UK? No. Everything is relative but the idea that there are countries not suffering due to Russia being dicks doesn't stack up.

All of which I'm sure is true, however nowhere in Europe has seen price increases like the UK. Nowhere. 

[A Boy Named Crow]

2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

All of which I'm sure is true, however nowhere in Europe has seen price increases like the UK. Nowhere. 

It's almost like there's something else at play in the UK. Have there been any other big changes in the British political / economic landscape over the last few years? It certainly is a puzzler!

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

27 minutes ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

It's almost like there's something else at play in the UK. Have there been any other big changes in the British political / economic landscape over the last few years? It certainly is a puzzler!

Simply to say "Brexit" is actually not the case here. The energy markets are driven by the dollar cost of oil in particular. Has the pound devalued more than the Euro against the dollar? I actually don't think that's the case.

[jambomjm74]

7 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

 

It's undoubtedly a global crisis but it's considerably worse in the UK than it is in most of the bigger countries of Europe or the USA, and it's accelerating in the UK whereas it's starting to fall back a bit in other large economies.

 

Economists can and will spend endless hours debating the reason, but the fact remains that almost all contemporary economists of varying stripes agree that leaving a single market and creating new barriers to trade with your major trading partners, without countervaling government action, will be pretty inherently inflationary.

Brexit is also a driver, although due to North Sea and Norway agreements we may not see the same level of energy cut-offs likely in main land Europe this winter.. when gas and electricity use goes up.. if we think bills are bad now. wait till we turn the heating back on
I see Brexit as a crazy economic, political and social idea, likewise leaving the U.K. single market would be crazy … given the level of reliance on U.K. companies and the U.K. consumer.  

[The Mighty Thor]

21 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Simply to say "Brexit" is actually not the case here. The energy markets are driven by the dollar cost of oil in particular. Has the pound devalued more than the Euro against the dollar? I actually don't think that's the case.

So they're ripping the pish then? 

 

14 billion profit a quarter would point towards it. 

[jambomjm74]

7 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yes I felt very dejected that night . I recall once we knew one of the big results was in that was it , really . Now i haven’t the slightest interest either way . If we get Indy we get it if not I’ll not cry into my porridge unlike the last time . It has barely any significance to me really . The passion for it has gone . 

I wish the passion we had for Indy moved to education … environment and the inequalities within the world …

Nationalism, whether for fairness or inclusion is too inward looking .. whether that’s Brexit or Scexit.

[JudyJudyJudy]

7 minutes ago, jambomjm74 said:

I wish the passion we had for Indy moved to education … environment and the inequalities within the world …

Nationalism, whether for fairness or inclusion is too inward looking .. whether that’s Brexit or Scexit.

I now feel that too 

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 hours ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

The quality of governance in Scotland today is irrelevant.  A new country would see a new system, new faces getting involved, different voting preferences. The obvious response though is, how do you like the quality of governance we see right now in the current set up?

 

A government in Westminster that is seemingly fine with breaking laws (both domestic and international), also fine with letting great swathes of the population fall into grim poverty, while the mates of the same government are fleecing the country all the way to the bank...

 

Don't forget,  it's the current system that dragged Scotland into the unspeakable shitshow that is Brexit.

 

An independent Scotland would have to be incredibly bad to be worse than the status quo. History of other countries gaining independence would suggest we'll be ok on that front. 

Your living in fantasy land if you think there would be a new array of politicians in an Indy Scotland . The same ones arguing today will want a big slice of the pie once Indy is granted . NS in particular is very ambitious and has her eye firmly on being Scotland first prime minister , she will bring her rag tag of fellow msp with her . 

[jambomjm74]

8 hours ago, That thing you do said:

If you look at cases in Europe, Slovenia for example, which has a much weaker economy than scotland would, economic activity increased, not decreased.

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228416930_Slovenian_economy_on_the_way_from_independence_to_catching_up_average_economic_development_of_EU-27 this is from 2008.

 

Inward investment increased, not decreased. Europe wise i cant find anyone who claimed independence and didnt see it benefit them economically.

 

The Brain drain would not worsen. The reason it exists now is centralisation by Westminster on SE England. An Edinburgh recognised as a world capital (full one), in a country rejoining the eea/eu, thats welcoming to incomers is a more dynamic place than regional edinburgh.

 

As has been the case for Tallin, Vilnius, Ljubljana and countless others.

 

It isnt going to be the land of milk and honey but the data on this and historical precedents dont make staying a region of a bigger entity the better option.

 

Of course, some of this depends on quality of governance of the new Scotland. But the bar is set quite low with the tories now to assume a Scottish government could and would do as well and probably much better.

 

England wont stop trading either! 

 

I just dont see any evidence for the prophecies of doom you have. After Brexit, staying is no longer the less risky option imo.

Come on Lithuania and others started as post communist nations..
I understand that Scotland has a ridiculously low private sector employment rate, which is what drives growth. Indy scot would see more public ownership… let’s stop pick a country … today Mathew I’ll be Lithuania, look at there at Stats. we could do that - fantasy stuff and no relevance. If Hearts look at Brighton, we could have that income and wage bill … couldn’t we ??? Erm no  

Do you work in a large U.K. company, I’d suggest you don’t and don’t understand the current vs future position. U.K. headed company is the key, what would be left would be branch offices … the tax location for most at the last referendum so that pot of gold is gone and top staff would follow. I remember Nicola S, explaining that people came to Edinburgh for the education … no they came for the high paid jobs and would soon move to Leeds / Bristol / London etc. 
It wouldn’t stop trading but extra barriers and cost would see a reduction and it would take the best work:workers back … how many new British warships in Rosyth. 
It’s nice to debate, it’s pointless as you and I see the same realities very differently … neither is wrong all the time. The way forwards is a devolution settlement that works. 
otherwise it’s a pseudo Indy given our reliance on the U.K. now and in what ever future. 
 

[A Boy Named Crow]

13 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Your living in fantasy land if you think there would be a new array of politicians in an Indy Scotland . The same ones arguing today will want a big slice of the pie once Indy is granted . NS in particular is very ambitious and has her eye firmly on being Scotland first prime minister , she will bring her rag tag of fellow msp with her . 

Who would vote for the SNP though? The only reason I have in the past was independence,  with that achieved,  what's the point?

 

Of course there will be new faces. In the past there were tremendous Scottish politicians at Westminster. I suspect there are also people in business and other walks of life who would be keen to be part of a proper government,  if it didnt mean having to split your time with London.

 

Or do you think Scotland is just incapable of producing leaders?

Edited August 11, 2022 by A Boy Named Crow

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

37 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

So they're ripping the pish then? 

 

14 billion profit a quarter would point towards it. 

Yes, I think you're getting it!

[A Boy Named Crow]

1 hour ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Simply to say "Brexit" is actually not the case here. The energy markets are driven by the dollar cost of oil in particular. Has the pound devalued more than the Euro against the dollar? I actually don't think that's the case.

So what other factors would be causing the larger increases in the UK? Germany you'd think would be dragging the EU problems, with its reliance on Russua for example.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

17 minutes ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

So what other factors would be causing the larger increases in the UK? Germany you'd think would be dragging the EU problems, with its reliance on Russua for example.

The energy mix - the gas percentage in power stations for example. France has 75% nuclear. The German numbers are surprising but they have placed energy rationing on certain industries and domestic users.

 

I also think there is profiteering in the UK as well.

[The Old Tolbooth]

9 hours ago, That thing you do said:

If you look at cases in Europe, Slovenia for example, which has a much weaker economy than scotland would, economic activity increased, not decreased.

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228416930_Slovenian_economy_on_the_way_from_independence_to_catching_up_average_economic_development_of_EU-27 this is from 2008.

 

Inward investment increased, not decreased. Europe wise i cant find anyone who claimed independence and didnt see it benefit them economically.

 

The Brain drain would not worsen. The reason it exists now is centralisation by Westminster on SE England. An Edinburgh recognised as a world capital (full one), in a country rejoining the eea/eu, thats welcoming to incomers is a more dynamic place than regional edinburgh.

 

As has been the case for Tallin, Vilnius, Ljubljana and countless others.

 

It isnt going to be the land of milk and honey but the data on this and historical precedents dont make staying a region of a bigger entity the better option.

 

Of course, some of this depends on quality of governance of the new Scotland. But the bar is set quite low with the tories now to assume a Scottish government could and would do as well and probably much better.

 

England wont stop trading either! 

 

I just dont see any evidence for the prophecies of doom you have. After Brexit, staying is no longer the less risky option imo.

 

Excellent post. 

 

9 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

What about  the “ quality of governance” in Scotland at the present time . Seems every other day we are at the bottom of various tables and leagues regarding various issues . It’s never ending 

 

If Indy happens, I'm pretty sure that Sturgeon and co would disappear, I'm not her biggest fan, but she's probably the best of a bad bunch, let's face it, there's not a lot to compare to basing it on Westminster! 

 

I know I'll be voting yes the nest time out just like last time, but I wouldn't be voting Sturgeon back into power if she stood again because I feel we could do so much better, but for the time being I feel that this is the only way to achieve Indy, so they have my backing, anything is better than the prospect of staying in an unequal union with that rabble down South in my book, I just can't stomach them any longer. 

 

I have a feeling that if we do gain Indy, Sturgeon would be stepping away from politics anyway as she'll go down in history as the woman who gained us our Indy, and will dine out on that forever more. 

 

New political parties will form, new people will stand, fresh ideas will come about, it'll take a wee while to all come together, but no other country has looked back after gaining Indy (Hong Kong apart) from this shit show. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Rather sneaky really . Shows her character 

 

 

 

 

[jack D and coke]

Just now, JudyJudyJudy said:

Rather sneaky really . Shows her character 

 

 

 

 

 aye she shouldn’t try embarrass that tube Truss at all. 
Mandy sounds a bitter wee unionist to me. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

15 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

 aye she shouldn’t try embarrass that tube Truss at all. 
Mandy sounds a bitter wee unionist to me. 

No being a Clype isn’t a good look really . It’s sneaky . Doesn’t surprise me one bit . The SNP promote people being clypes unless it’s against them obviously 

[JudyJudyJudy]

28 minutes ago, The Old Tolbooth said:

 

Excellent post. 

 

 

If Indy happens, I'm pretty sure that Sturgeon and co would disappear, I'm not her biggest fan, but she's probably the best of a bad bunch, let's face it, there's not a lot to compare to basing it on Westminster! 

 

I know I'll be voting yes the nest time out just like last time, but I wouldn't be voting Sturgeon back into power if she stood again because I feel we could do so much better, but for the time being I feel that this is the only way to achieve Indy, so they have my backing, anything is better than the prospect of staying in an unequal union with that rabble down South in my book, I just can't stomach them any longer. 

 

I have a feeling that if we do gain Indy, Sturgeon would be stepping away from politics anyway as she'll go down in history as the woman who gained us our Indy, and will dine out on that forever more. 

 

New political parties will form, new people will stand, fresh ideas will come about, it'll take a wee while to all come together, but no other country has looked back after gaining Indy (Hong Kong apart) from this shit show. 

Yes I agree that no other country looks back after Indy but no other country is Scotland and all countries have different issues