Jump to content

Should Scotland be an independent country?


Alex Kintner
 Share

Should Scotland be an independent country?  

402 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Scotland be an independent country?

    • Yes
      254
    • No
      130
    • Don’t know/ Abstain/ Spoil ballot
      18


Recommended Posts

6 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Utter and complete bull shit!

That drum is beaten by folk who want to believe that to be the case, it's not and you flipping well know it.

Disappointed that you believe that it's true.

come on there is an element of some anti English sentiment.  ? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 5.3k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • jack D and coke

    367

  • i wish jj was my dad

    254

  • Smithee

    495

  • JudyJudyJudy

    362

Konrad von Carstein
11 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

come on there is an element of some anti English sentiment.  ? 

The above isn't what you said though!

You said; "they have basically relied on being  anti English for decades" 

That is very different from the slant in the post quoted above.

However, I'm not naive enough to believe there aren't indy supporters who are anti-English.

You implied it was party/movement policy, you were/are wrong.

Edited by Konrad von Carstein
Words
Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

It's not about being Scottish Jonesy, it's about having governments of our choice voted in and out by the people who live here. I like certain aspects of the UK but the nature of Westminster governance is so far removed from what it's expected to be that something has to change. IMO.

 

The rhetoric and language used is beyond parody. They forget that a huge chunk of Scotland doesn't agree with them and are treated with disdain and that's a fact!

Again, can understand your first point and partially agree. Something needs to change. Whether the kind of change envisioned actually materialises, however, is another matter.

 

Almost all politicians are self serving egoists driven by their own prejudices, so doubt you're going to get a bunch of selfless heroes. 

 

Anyway, opinions are like arseholes: no one really ever wants to hear anyone else's....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

You must've thought long and hard about that post...

Probably longer and harder than the anti democracy dribble you wrote. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A Boy Named Crow
5 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Probably longer and harder than the anti democracy dribble you wrote. 

Care to refute what I said,  or is that picture all you've got?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

Care to refute what I said,  or is that picture all you've got?

You basically were saying some people are so stupid they dont deserve to get to vote. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Blackie the Cat
13 minutes ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

You must've thought long and hard about that post...


The one and only Prof Sarah Gilbert…

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A Boy Named Crow
Just now, JudyJudyJudy said:

You basically were saying some people are so stupid they dont deserve to get to vote. 

Well, almost. Why do you think people who don't understand what they are voting for should have a vote that carries as much weight as people who do? Why is that good?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Again, can understand your first point and partially agree. Something needs to change. Whether the kind of change envisioned actually materialises, however, is another matter.

 

Almost all politicians are self serving egoists driven by their own prejudices, so doubt you're going to get a bunch of selfless heroes. 

 

Anyway, opinions are like arseholes: no one really ever wants to hear anyone else's....

I'm not naive enough to think Scotland hasn't got its fair share of poor politicians. At least they won't show as much disdain for our country and we'd get the opportunity to vote them out. 

 

I'm aware it's about opinions and some will agree and disagree like politics in general but you hope to hit the target occasionally! 😉

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I'm not naive enough to think Scotland hasn't got its fair share of poor politicians. At least they won't show as much disdain for our country and we'd get the opportunity to vote them out. 

 

I'm aware it's about opinions and some will agree and disagree like politics in general but you hope to hit the target occasionally! 😉

I believe that's where our shared understanding may bifurcate, Roxy... I believe the current mob in Holyrood show disdain for the 'people of Scotland' (a bit of a nebulous term, but hey ho) through some of their policies. Not arguing that the mob in London don't either, however.

 

Let's hope that, whatever comes to pass, things move on and improve. There's far too much negativity in the world at the moment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I believe that's where our shared understanding may bifurcate, Roxy... I believe the current mob in Holyrood show disdain for the 'people of Scotland' (a bit of a nebulous term, but hey ho) through some of their policies. Not arguing that the mob in London don't either, however.

 

Let's hope that, whatever comes to pass, things move on and improve. There's far too much negativity in the world at the moment.

Had to look that up! 🤣. Still think things are better managed as close to source as possible. I think politics may be more attractive in Scotland if we achieve independence as those interested would think they could then make a difference. As we've stated it's about opinions and I'm trying to be optimistic about it. 👍

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dusk_Till_Dawn
3 hours ago, Shooter McGavin said:


I agree, and I think this is something that is lacking on the independence front, there are still plenty of unanswered questions, and fear of the unknown. 

 

I think, if independence did go through, there would be a “S***, what now?” moment as there will be a monumental amount of things that need sorted out, as we seen with Brexit it’s not as simple as a “See you later!”


I completely agree with your last point. It worries me when people on either side of the debate claim their solution is the fix to everything. It wont be.
 

There will be pro’s and cons on both sides, it’s about weighing them up and choosing the one that’ll yield the best results.


Totally agree and for what it’s worth, I think voting for independence is the obvious (and most sensible) move because nothing about Westminster is attractive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


Totally agree and for what it’s worth, I think voting for independence is the obvious (and most sensible) move because nothing about Westminster is attractive.

Well, Esther McVey isn't that bad...

 

🥰

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Konrad von Carstein
10 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Well, Esther McVey isn't that bad...

 

🥰

She'd need one of these tough.

That voice...

 :levein2:

IMG_20220806_145738.jpg

Edited by Konrad von Carstein
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

She'd need one of these tough.

That voice...

 :levein2:

IMG_20220806_145738.jpg

 

 

If I've telt ye once, I've telt ye a hunner times, Konnie: stop posting selfies on JKB.

 

:yadayada:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shooter McGavin
57 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


Totally agree and for what it’s worth, I think voting for independence is the obvious (and most sensible) move because nothing about Westminster is attractive.

 

I’m leaning towards that myself, to be honest.

 

Westminsters race to the bottom is seriously worrying, and I would rather not hang around to see how far they’ll go.

 

People keep saying we’ll be worse off with independence, yet we currently have people in full-time employment relying on foodbanks, and newly introduced “warm-banks”.

 

It’s like an abusive relationship where the abusive partner tries to convince the other that they’ll be worse off without them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Shooter McGavin said:

 

I’m leaning towards that myself, to be honest.

 

Westminsters race to the bottom is seriously worrying, and I would rather not hang around to see how far they’ll go.

 

People keep saying we’ll be worse off with independence, yet we currently have people in full-time employment relying on foodbanks, and newly introduced “warm-banks”.

 

It’s like an abusive relationship where the abusive partner tries to convince the other that they’ll be worse off without them.

 

It's a terrible situation and collectively we should be doing everything possible to eliminate the need for them.

 

But you do know that millions of people rely on food banks in France, in Germany and elsewhere?

 

Westminster being solely responsible for everything wrong in the world today and breaking up the United Kingdom being the solution to everything is a nonsense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Mighty Thor
4 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

 

 

:yas:

 

Wiped the floor with all comers 

Cameron, May, Spaffer, mooth, Jackson Carcrash, wee Doogz, jum Murphy, Dugdale, Baillie, Leonard (who?), Baillie for seconds, anus, Willie Rennie

 

All them. Horsed. Absolutely horsed. 

 

:greggy:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shooter McGavin
Just now, pablo said:

 

It's a terrible situation and collectively we should be doing everything possible to eliminate the need for them.

 

But you do know that millions of people rely on food banks in France, in Germany and elsewhere?

 

Westminster being solely responsible for everything wrong in the world today and breaking up the United Kingdom being the solution to everything is a nonsense.

100% agree, for developed nations it’s utterly embarrassing.

 

I personally have not, and am not, suggesting Westminster is solely responsible, and as I touched on earlier, I certainly don’t believe leaving the United Kingdom is the solution to everything. I have never once claimed it was either.

 

What really irks me is the complete disregard from Westminster to these issues, I’ve never been so disgusted at a government than the one we’ve seen under Johnsons premiership. We’ve had crap governments in the past, but this one is so brazen in their contempt for the public. They’ve really lowered the bar, hence my race to the bottom comments.

 

And from listening to Sunak & Truss, I don’t see much changing under them either. I don’t see an appetite for change at Westminster, just more of the same, and that could be potentially devastating.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Mighty Thor
4 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Exactly . Mud is thrown from both Sides . I’m genuinely startled by the snp response to Truss comments when they have basically relied on being “ anti English “ for decades . 

 

4 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

come on there is an element of some anti English sentiment.  ? 

Evidence plz of the political party, the SNP being anti-English.

 

Many thanks in advance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Westminster being solely responsible for everything wrong in the world today and breaking up the United Kingdom being the solution to everything is a nonsense.

 

That's just completely misrepresenting the argument.

 

No one's said independence is the solution to everything, but I'll settle for a government that exists to serve Scotland over one that really couldn't GAF.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

Evidence plz of the political party, the SNP being anti-English.

 

Many thanks in advance.

Im busy this weekend I’ll get back to you after I’ve had time  to do research 😎😂

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

:yas:

 

Wiped the floor with all comers 

Cameron, May, Spaffer, mooth, Jackson Carcrash, wee Doogz, jum Murphy, Dugdale, Baillie, Leonard (who?), Baillie for seconds, anus, Willie Rennie

 

All them. Horsed. Absolutely horsed. 

 

:greggy:

And of course, as many of the independentistas say, the SNP will, post-indy, likely disappear and a range of other parties will represent us at Holyrood with this lot among their leaders. Cannae wait. It'll be oh-so-different from the incompetence and corruption of WM. :( 

 

Just be honest. You're happy for political leaders to be incompetent, you just don't want them to have plummy accents. :) 

Edited by jonesy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, jonesy said:

And of course, as many of the independentistas say, the SNP will, post-indy, likely disappear and a range of other parties will represent us at Holyrood with this lot among their leaders. Cannae wait. It'll be oh-so-different from the incompetence and corruption of Holyrood. :( 

 

Just be honest. You're happy for political leaders to be incompetent, you just don't want them to have plummy accents. :) 

In a nutshell 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

That's just completely misrepresenting the argument.

 

No one's said independence is the solution to everything, but I'll settle for a government that exists to serve Scotland over one that really couldn't GAF.

 

The government does exist to serve the whole of the UK. Does it do it well? That's a completely different discussion. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Mighty Thor
11 minutes ago, jonesy said:

And of course, as many of the independentistas say, the SNP will, post-indy, likely disappear and a range of other parties will represent us at Holyrood with this lot among their leaders. Cannae wait. It'll be oh-so-different from the incompetence and corruption of WM. :( 

 

Just be honest. You're happy for political leaders to be incompetent, you just don't want them to have plummy accents. :) 

The voters of Scotland decide old boy. 

Inept branch office politics I not really suitable for any country in the 21st century.

Labour and the Conservatives are disappearing before your very eyes. That's because what they’re offering is not what the people of Scotland want as has been evidenced over the last 15 years. 

 

I'm not really hung up on accents, or class or wealth being a measure of anything. The Junta should have exploded that myth for you. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Mighty Thor
16 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

 

10 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

 

So the Orkney branch Facebook page administrator speaks for the SNP party?

 

Your second one is what they call 'reaching' 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

 

So the Orkney branch Facebook page administrator speaks for the SNP party?

 

Your second one is what they call 'reaching' 

Oh im sure there’s more out there . Certainly heard plenty anti English sentiment in my “ kilted warrior Indy “ days 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

The government does exist to serve the whole of the UK. Does it do it well? That's a completely different discussion. 

Theoretically, but Westminster's not interested in Scotland.

This current lot in particular certainly isn't, and we must have had Tory governments 30 out of the last 45 years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Mighty Thor
Just now, JudyJudyJudy said:

Oh im sure there’s more out there . Certainly heard plenty anti English sentiment in my “ kilted warrior Indy “ days 

So you've heard Scottish people being anti English? So have I.

 

I haven't heard the political party, the SNP, being anti English which was what you said. 

 

If you're going to post nonsense at least try to be accurate with it otherwise you'll end up with people thinking you're a slavering troll. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Theoretically, but Westminster's not interested in Scotland.

This current lot in particular certainly isn't, and we must have had Tory governments 30 out of the last 45 years.

 

Is it less interested in Scotland than elsewhere? If so where? Also, wasn't that the whole point of devolution? So we could diverge from the UK in matters such as health and education and tailor policy to meet our needs?

 

That's working out well since the nationalists took a stranglehold over the Scottish Executive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Is it less interested in Scotland than elsewhere? If so where? Also, wasn't that the whole point of devolution? So we could diverge from the UK in matters such as health and education and tailor policy to meet our needs?

 

That's working out well since the nationalists took a stranglehold over the Scottish Executive.

I'm not particularly arsed about elsewhere, they can speak for themselves!

Scotland deserves a democratic voice instead of getting whatever government England decides though.

 

Quite apart from anything else, a government that's chosen by England's electorate is going to keep that in mind if they want elected again.

Want English votes and don't care about Scottish votes?

Anglocentric policies are the answer, why would they do anything else? The way things are set up makes us an after thought.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

I'm not particularly arsed about elsewhere, they can speak for themselves!

Scotland deserves a democratic voice instead of getting whatever government England decides though.

 

Quite apart from anything else, a government that's chosen by England's electorate is going to keep that in mind if they want elected again.

Want English votes and don't care about Scottish votes?

Anglocentric policies are the answer, why would they do anything else? The way things are set up makes us an after thought.

 

Yeah I know. We'll never agree on this. For me, there is no Scotland and England in terms of Westminster. Over three hundred years ago Scotland and England merged to become the United Kingdom. You have a vote. The fact you don't get the government you want is neither here nor there. We have the Scottish Executive to nuance to local situation. The grievance in your mind, isn't present in mine. That's not to say I'm happy with a Conservative government or vote for one. The Nationalists don't speak for Scotland. It's impossible to do so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Yeah I know. We'll never agree on this. For me, there is no Scotland and England in terms of Westminster. Over three hundred years ago Scotland and England merged to become the United Kingdom. You have a vote. The fact you don't get the government you want is neither here nor there. We have the Scottish Executive to nuance to local situation. The grievance in your mind, isn't present in mine. That's not to say I'm happy with a Conservative government or vote for one. The Nationalists don't speak for Scotland. It's impossible to do so.

 

My position isn't grievance based, it's hope based.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

My position isn't grievance based, it's hope based.

 

It's misplaced then. In my opinion obviously. You start every position from a view that Scotland is an equal in terms of nationhood as the UK is. But it isn't. And I say that as a proud Scot.

 

Also, to indulge the theoretical. How is this vision of an independent Scotland the SNP is selling attractive? It's pretty right wing neoliberalism bollox. More of the same with a Saltire plastered over everything. Where's the radical change or thinking coming from? Just some point in the future?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

you'll end up with people thinking you're a slavering troll. 

they already do so ive nowt to lose really

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

It's misplaced then. In my opinion obviously. You start every position from a view that Scotland is an equal in terms of nationhood as the UK is. But it isn't. And I say that as a proud Scot.

 

Also, to indulge the theoretical. How is this vision of an independent Scotland the SNP is selling attractive? It's pretty right wing neoliberalism bollox. More of the same with a Saltire plastered over everything. Where's the radical change or thinking coming from? Just some point in the future?

 

When's the radical change or thinking coming from staying in the union?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

The voters of Scotland decide old boy. 

Inept branch office politics I not really suitable for any country in the 21st century.

Labour and the Conservatives are disappearing before your very eyes. That's because what they’re offering is not what the people of Scotland want as has been evidenced over the last 15 years. 

 

I'm not really hung up on accents, or class or wealth being a measure of anything. The Junta should have exploded that myth for you. 

 

Sorry man, usually your posts provide a decent set of arguments, but that one reads like a bingo card of nationalist slogans. 😅

 

No political party provides what the people of Scotland want. There is no collective will other than what is a seemingly very close 50/50ish split. 

 

But by your own admission, Sturgeon has seen off the best that Scottish politics has to offer. That doesn't, IMO, bode well for the pluralistic, inclusive Scottish political scene in a post-independence Parliament. 

 

I think I'm being unfair actually, as obviously you cannot predict what Scotland will be like if there is a successful yes vote. I guess my issue is that there's a very high chance that we go through a massive amount of costly upheaval to be left with what amounts to the status mcquo.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

Sorry man, usually your posts provide a decent set of arguments, but that one reads like a bingo card of nationalist slogans. 😅

 

Testicles old chap, all reasonable posting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

When's the radical change or thinking coming from staying in the union?

 

A continued lurch to the right under this government. Some of their policies seem pretty radical to me, although not ones I agree with.

 

But there's no staying in the Union because there is no Union. The United Kingdom is the result of a union that happened over 300 years ago. Expect the Supreme Court to point this out in the next month or so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, pablo said:

A continued lurch to the right under this government. Some of their policies seem pretty radical to me, although not ones I agree with.

 

 

So, in reality, all it would actually take is treading water to be in a better position than the alternative.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

come on there is an element of some anti English sentiment.  ? 

 

No there isn't. 

 

Genuinely, the only folk I hear going on about Scottish Independence and Anti Englishness is Unionists. It reeks of 'if you say it enough times it must be true'.

 

There is a great video of a guy with a Union flag clearly out to antagonise at a YES march and the people could not have been nicer to him. That I think is a brilliant example of the mentality among the yes movement. 

 

There is a huge awareness within the Yes movement that bigotry, anger and hate won't win hearts or minds to the cause and I think broadly speaking yes voters are excellent at self policing. There are examples of a few bad apples, like in any group but those people from my own observations are quickly pulled aside or kicked out. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

 

Probably around July-October 2023 if the SNP can keep to the October referendum date. 

 

Of course it will all magically be there again in November. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Mighty Thor
2 hours ago, jonesy said:

But by your own admission, Sturgeon has seen off the best that Scottish politics has to offer. That doesn't, IMO, bode well for the pluralistic, inclusive Scottish political scene in a post-independence Parliament. 

My posts are generally a machine gun of the utter guff that's in between my lugs!

 

On the point highlighted;

The problem is the SNP have seen off the branch office dwellers, who by and large follow the policy of Westminster which has been mangled to fit what London thinks Scotland needs or wants. 

 

The Scottish Labour and Conservative groups need to stop being branch offices. Set up proper Scottish parties, behave like proper Scottish opposition and not like sock puppets for CCHQ and Labour HQ. 

Otherwise they'll be in the long grass for a mighty long time. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

manaliveits105

Ruth Davidson: I will return to front-line politics in the event of indyref2
 

Great offer from Scotlands best politician in recent years but it won’t be happening Ruth so not needed 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share




×
×
  • Create New...