TYNECASTLE STADIUM UPGRADE POTENTIAL - UEFA category 4 granted ( updated/merged )

[Wee Mikey]

17 minutes ago, Newton51 said:

Not great but company would be liable

 

4 minutes ago, pablo said:

Not necessarily. But you'd like to hope so.

 

I'd check that poster's effort on the 'Atmosphere' thread before taking it as gospel.

[soonbe110]

16 hours ago, Sarah O said:

Chrissy Boy, I admire your blind optimism but you need to be realistic. 

 

We only need to look at our neebs in Leith to see what happens when you build a ground too big for your needs. 

 

Fans don't need to buy ST's as they can easily pick up tickets in general sale. For any game. A slump in form and people will question attending a match or not which of course would result in an even lower attendance. 

 

I'd love to look into your crystal ball, no idea how you can confidently predict that sell outs *will practically* happen for a solid three years. Folk will be struggling to pay to put the heating on this winter let alone shelling out for going to the football. 

 

Our attendance figures for the last 5-10 years quite clearly show we don't need a bigger stadium right now. 

 

 

 

 

👏👏Common-sense post. 

[Sooks]

Just now, kila said:

 
Has he not been slavering in other threads too?

Not for making things up as far as I can remember but he did confidently stated that we were not going to sell out the home leg v Zurich  

[jamboinglasgow]

18 minutes ago, kila said:

 
Has he not been slavering in other threads too?

 

Yeah he posts things like this (did it quite often on the transfer thread) so I would only believe it if the club say it.

[Sarah O]

28 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

👏👏Common-sense post. 

Folk already moan about "poor atmosphere" at Tynie. 

 

Imagine it was bigger, with more empty spaces and a mediocre team. Folk would be seething and even that could put people off coming back again. 

 

But aye, let's spend £10million plus on a few extra thousand seats because WE ARE HUGE and they will sell out all the time and pay for themselves really quick ken!

 

A packed, smaller Tynie, every single time for me please. With Disco lights. 

 

[Sooks]

14 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

Yeah he posts things like this (did it quite often on the transfer thread) so I would only believe it if the club say it.

I missed that I only saw his we wont sell out post ………… weird way to get ones kicks

[FFSJohn]

Gimme a break! 

[Allowayjambo1874]

3 hours ago, Libertarian said:

I will say this as respectfully as I can but you are completely wrong. When a poor Hearts side was playing at Murrayfield we had 36,000 against Rangers, 26,000 against Aberdeen and if my memory serves me correctly around 20,000 against Kilmarnock. The fact that we have sold out our season tickets, sold out the home allocation against Ross County and Dundee United along with selling out against Zurich in record time all evidences the fact that we need a bigger capacity to continue growing the club. The problem is how do we do that. I really hope that the Board are working on this problem because the current capacity at Tynecastle is holding the club back.

I think you are forgetting the away support in all these matches which were vastly inflated by the novelty of playing at Murrayfield. My recollection is there were roughly 22k Hearts fans at each of those games, not exactly a huge amount more than we get at Tynecastle given when there were zero restriction on tickets for Murrayfield.

 

We would all like a bigger stadium but most people recognise there is a balance to be had cost v return and in our case how logistically we can do it on current site as moving completely would result in astronomical outlay. 

[MattyK82]

3 hours ago, FFSJohn said:

One of them has been damaged in transit. 

How could you possibly know this? 🤨 (unless of course you work for the transit company? If so, my apologies..)

[JayTeeJnr]

54 minutes ago, Allowayjambo1874 said:

I think you are forgetting the away support in all these matches which were vastly inflated by the novelty of playing at Murrayfield. My recollection is there were roughly 22k Hearts fans at each of those games, not exactly a huge amount more than we get at Tynecastle given when there were zero restriction on tickets for Murrayfield.

 

We would all like a bigger stadium but most people recognise there is a balance to be had cost v return and in our case how logistically we can do it on current site as moving completely would result in astronomical outlay. 

 

Just to add to what you've said here... I checked the league game crowds at Murrayfield and they were 24,248 (Aberdeen), 32,852 (Rangers) and 18,534 (St Johnstone). Significantly less than the original poster guessed.  Aberdeen brought around 6,000 and Rangers was either 11 or 12,000.

Personally I much prefer a sold out Tynecastle with a small section of away fans (particularly when the Old Firm play us).  We have no reliance on Old Firm money which is a great place to be.  I'd never want to see Rangers buses lining the Corstorphine Road or their fans hanging out of every hotel and bar on my trip to Tynecastle. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by JayTeeJnr

[Libertarian]

38 minutes ago, JayTeeJnr said:

 

Just to add to what you've said here... I checked the league game crowds at Murrayfield and they were 24,248 (Aberdeen), 32,852 (Rangers) and 18,534 (St Johnstone). Significantly less than the original poster guessed.  Aberdeen brought around 6,000 and Rangers was either 11 or 12,000.

Personally I much prefer a sold out Tynecastle with a small section of away fans (particularly when the Old Firm play us).  We have no reliance on Old Firm money which is a great place to be.  I'd never want to see Rangers buses lining the Corstorphine Road or their fans hanging out of every hotel and bar on my trip to Tynecastle. 

The point is that the current Tynecastle capacity is costing Hearts and thus limiting the clubs growth. There is no reason why the club can't increase the number of season tickets up to 18,000 if we can increase the capacity of the stadium. Personally I am not in the least bothered by big away supports just as long as this isn't at the expense of limiting the home support. With a bigger capacity we could easily be generating an extra £1.5m to £2.5m a year for the club. Therefore any outlay in increasing the capacity of Tynecastle should be looked upon as an investment.

[SwindonJambo]

There aren’t half some delusional fantasists around. The club is progressing and growing well, after a tough few years, we’ve had 2 years of growth and our first European qualification for 6 years. I think most of us are happy with the current direction but talk of a 25,000 or 30,000 stadium that we’d only fill for big games is just silly at present. Massively Cost prohibitive (We’re talking tens of millions - who pays for that???) for starters and we’d have to move for that kind of capacity. Planning permission would be an issue too.

 

if we got said 30,000 stadium at present and the team withered on the vine as it surely will at some point, we’d be forced to give the arse cheeks 10,000 tickets whenever they visit and inflict their vile bile and odious fan behaviour on ourselves 4 times a season. At present we can limit them to one wee corner and fill the rest of the ground with our own. IMHO the current capacity is fine for current needs. A tight, small and intimidating stadium with limited away team capacity.

 

Hopefully the upward trajectory of the last 2 years continues for an extended period and if we do need to expand, unfortunately a move would be necessary because the cost of expansion and aggro of planning permission where we are would be off the scale.

[davemclaren]

1 minute ago, Libertarian said:

The point is that the current Tynecastle capacity is costing Hearts and thus limiting the clubs growth. There is no reason why the club can't increase the number of season tickets up to 18,000 if we can increase the capacity of the stadium. Personally I am not in the least bothered by big away supports just as long as this isn't at the expense of limiting the home support. With a bigger capacity we could easily be generating an extra £1.5m to £2.5m a year for the club. Therefore any outlay in increasing the capacity of Tynecastle should be looked upon as an investment.

I think you would need to understand how the costs and benefits look going forward, and the assumptions around them, to tell if it is a good or bad investment. 

[DETTY29]

3 hours ago, Sarah O said:

Folk already moan about "poor atmosphere" at Tynie. 

 

Imagine it was bigger, with more empty spaces and a mediocre team. Folk would be seething and even that could put people off coming back again. 

 

But aye, let's spend £10million plus on a few extra thousand seats because WE ARE HUGE and they will sell out all the time and pay for themselves really quick ken!

 

A packed, smaller Tynie, every single time for me please. With Disco lights. 

 

Only to give those seats back to the OF.

[Libertarian]

3 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

I think you would need to understand how the costs and benefits look going forward, and the assumptions around them, to tell if it is a good or bad investment. 

The club should be, and I hope are, carrying out a feasibility study of all options and costs in order to make the best informed decision possible on this issue. It's frustrating for everyone who cares about Heart of Midlothian to see supporters/customers turned away and losing revenue all because the current capacity is too small.

[davemclaren]

Just now, Libertarian said:

The club should be, and I hope are, carrying out a feasibility study of all options and costs in order to make the best informed decision possible on this issue. It's frustrating for everyone who cares about Heart of Midlothian to see supporters/customers turned away and losing revenue all because the current capacity is too small.

I imagine it’s all been looked at before so we are likely to have a good idea of what any viable options, if any, are and whether any new factors would impact that.  
 

 

[Clerry Jambo]

The debate re capacity, it would be great to get corners filled in but that’s well documented. We have started to reduce away allocation and i would have included Hibs in that, so let’s see as the season progresses if we can comfortably sell out the extra seats we have gained. With season tickets at record levels you would like to think so.

[J80MBO]

Couple of sell outs and need a 25k capacity 🤣 

 

Hearts fans get too up and too down...need happy medium folks

[davemclaren]

Just now, J80MBO said:

Couple of sell outs and need a 25k capacity 🤣 

 

Hearts fans get too up and too down...need happy medium folks

I do remember some were suggesting the we shouldn’t have been looking to increase our capacity when we built the new stand. It’s a tough balance to keep. 😎

[soonbe110]

On 20/08/2022 at 09:30, chrisyboy7 said:

Demand for our home leg next Thursday will be in excess of 30k....We have a huge potential support at Hearts. I hope one day this is made possible.....All it takes is a chance to watch the club at a higher level and to challenge for trophies...The clubs also have a very fair and more affordable pricing structure...Long may it continue.....The future is bright. the future is maroon & white.

What do you think demand for the game on the following Wednesday evening is? 10k, 12k, 14k at a push? 

[soonbe110]

17 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

I imagine it’s all been looked at before so we are likely to have a good idea of what any viable options, if any, are and whether any new factors would impact that.  
 

 

Unlikely to be any viable options Dave. Even if we managed to get an extra 4,000 seats that only just over £1m extra income per season if they are sold for every game. Payback time on  any significant investment would be decades. Add that to the spiralling costs of construction at the moment and a Wheatfield rebuild would probably cost even more than  the Main stand cost us. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

4 hours ago, kila said:

 
Has he not been slavering in other threads too?

Yes.

[Sarah O]

35 minutes ago, DETTY29 said:

Only to give those seats back to the OF.

Aye, another draw back. 

 

 

[JayTeeJnr]

In my opinion, the first step is to maximise our attendance based on the stadium we already have.

 

Hearts already took the first step by cutting back on the away section.  It's been mentioned several times, but there appear to be quite a number of seats that don't get sold at our home games.  It didn't really matter in previous seasons but you'd think it's now key they assess this.  The ticket resale option is another great way the club are ensuring more fans can get in to watch games.

 

Talk of stadium redevelopment should come after there's sustained demand for a reasonable time period.

[David McCaig]

10 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Unlikely to be any viable options Dave. Even if we managed to get an extra 4,000 seats that only just over £1m extra income per season if they are sold for every game. Payback time on  any significant investment would be decades. Add that to the spiralling costs of construction at the moment and a Wheatfield rebuild would probably cost even more than  the Main stand cost us. 

19 home games x £20 is £1.5m.

 

This would rise to £1.8m in a season like this.

 

Those figures rise upwards of £2m at £30 per ticket.

[David McCaig]

2 minutes ago, JayTeeJnr said:

In my opinion, the first step is to maximise our attendance based on the stadium we already have.

 

Hearts already took the first step by cutting back on the away section.  It's been mentioned several times, but there appear to be quite a number of seats that don't get sold at our home games.  It didn't really matter in previous seasons but you'd think it's now key they assess this.  The ticket resale option is another great way the club are ensuring more fans can get in to watch games.

 

Talk of stadium redevelopment should come after there's sustained demand for a reasonable time period.

Planning should be happening now with a view to taking action after confirming sustained demand.

[JimmyCant]

3 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

Planning should be happening now with a view to taking action after confirming sustained demand.

The only workable option is to double tier the Wheatfield. Whether that can be done using the existing structure or whether it needs taken down and built from scratch is anyones guess. If you start from scratch you can also ‘fill in the corners’ I’d imagine. It’s probably 5-10 years away if it all. Personally I think we’ll find a palatable way to move away to a new stadium eventually, probably a ground share and probably council sponsored, but that’s even further away.

[OTT]

14 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Unlikely to be any viable options Dave. Even if we managed to get an extra 4,000 seats that only just over £1m extra income per season if they are sold for every game. Payback time on  any significant investment would be decades. Add that to the spiralling costs of construction at the moment and a Wheatfield rebuild would probably cost even more than  the Main stand cost us. 

 

Its a real point of frustration, our stadium capacity is perfect for the hear and now, but there isn't any potential for growth or to take in the peaks that come from category A/European games because we're already at capacity. If the main stand could have been 2k bigger, we'd have been sorted but now if we do manage to overcome the obstacles in gaining planning permission, for it to be economically viable, we'd basically have to make the stand as big as possible. So if it was the Wheatfield, I'd think we'd need to aim for the maximum possible size we'd be allowed. Otherwise, its £25m (or more) for us to be in the same position which would just be daft. 

 

I could be talking out my arse, but I'm under the impression that the Robinson era stands were quoted as having a 30 year shelf life, which we're quickly approaching now (build early/mid 90's iirc?). I'm not saying we can't extend that shelf life longer, but I assume there comes a point where the stand becomes outdated and in need of significant repairs.

 

I'm not sure the extra ticket sales money is as straight forward as £1m a season until we pay back the costs, if then extra tickets and potential use from the space under the stand allowed us to get better players and compete at a higher level, i.e qualify for Europe, sign players we can sell on for 7 figures, then the pay back period would shrink. 

 

Appreciate its a mammoth task with huge obstacles. 

[David McCaig]

The final paragraph is never going to happen, ECC cant afford it and it wouldn't be in either clubs interests.  

 

Any move away from Lochend would kill Hibs... Which is the only benefit I can see.

[davemclaren]

5 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

Planning should be happening now with a view to taking action after confirming sustained demand.

Planning for the future based on what assumptions though?

- increasing/increased crowds of x. 
- distillery shuts/moves and we buy some land

- distillery stays and we pay for movement of storage tanks and they sell us some land behind the Wheatfield 

- Distillery stays and won’t sell us some land

- new housing if some sort behind Roseburn stand

- Gorgie Road stays right against Gorgie stand. 
- planning constraints around all of the above 

 

Of course there are more fanciful assumptions we could factor in. Personally, I don’t see a lot of wriggle room for increasing the capacity on our current site. 

 

[davemclaren]

2 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Its a real point of frustration, our stadium capacity is perfect for the hear and now, but there isn't any potential for growth or to take in the peaks that come from category A/European games because we're already at capacity. If the main stand could have been 2k bigger, we'd have been sorted but now if we do manage to overcome the obstacles in gaining planning permission, for it to be economically viable, we'd basically have to make the stand as big as possible. So if it was the Wheatfield, I'd think we'd need to aim for the maximum possible size we'd be allowed. Otherwise, its £25m (or more) for us to be in the same position which would just be daft. 

 

I could be talking out my arse, but I'm under the impression that the Robinson era stands were quoted as having a 30 year shelf life, which we're quickly approaching now (build early/mid 90's iirc?). I'm not saying we can't extend that shelf life longer, but I assume there comes a point where the stand becomes outdated and in need of significant repairs.

 

I'm not sure the extra ticket sales money is as straight forward as £1m a season until we pay back the costs, if then extra tickets and potential use from the space under the stand allowed us to get better players and compete at a higher level, i.e qualify for Europe, sign players we can sell on for 7 figures, then the pay back period would shrink. 

 

Appreciate its a mammoth task with huge obstacles. 

The 30 year lifespan of the current stands is an urban myth. 

[Hearts_fan]

I'll never understand the enthusiasm and glee which some Hearts fans can exude when shooting down the normal, ambitious aspirations of other fans.

 

A further point, I genuinely don't think SOME (emphasise some) of the nae sayers understand how average-statistics are arrived at.

 

I'm not being funny, but it needs pointed out – a key feature of an average attendance figure is that it can never be larger than the maximum capacity of the stadium.

 

Some people seem pleased to point out that our average attendance is not say, 23,000. Yet how could it be when our capacity is 19,000.

 

The average attendance could quite well have been 23,000 or more for the past few years if we had the capacity of a 30,000 stadium.

 

[OTT]

Just now, davemclaren said:

The 30 year lifespan of the current stands is an urban myth. 

 

Thanks Dave, wasn't sure. Obviously we stretched the old Mainstand for close to 100 years, so wasn't sure if this was a 'they don't build em like they used to' kind of thing  

 

[davemclaren]

Just now, Hearts_fan said:

I'll never understand the enthusiasm and glee which some Hearts fans can exude when shooting down the normal, ambitious aspirations of other fans.

 

A further point, I genuinely don't think SOME (emphasise some) of the nae sayers understand how average-statistics are arrived at.

 

I'm not being funny, but it needs pointed out – a key feature of an average attendance figure is that it can never be larger than the maximum capacity of the stadium.

 

Some people seem pleased to point out that our average attendance is not say, 23,000. Yet how could it be when our capacity is 19,000.

 

The average attendance could quite well have been 23,000 or more for the past few years if we had the capacity of a 30,000 stadium.

 

It could but if our average attendance was 23,000 in a 30,000 I would hazard we would have over invested in capacity. 

[David McCaig]

1 minute ago, davemclaren said:

Planning for the future based on what assumptions though?

- increasing/increased crowds of x. 
- distillery shuts/moves and we buy some land

- distillery stays and we pay for movement of storage tanks and they sell us some land behind the Wheatfield 

- Distillery stays and won’t sell us some land

- new housing if some sort behind Roseburn stand

- Gorgie Road stays right against Gorgie stand. 
- planning constraints around all of the above 

 

Of course there are more fanciful assumptions we could factor in. Personally, I don’t see a lot of wriggle room for increasing the capacity on our current site. 

 

In the short term we need to do everything possible to avoid becoming landlocked.

 

Long term the goal should be how do we get to 30k whilst remaining at Tynecastle.

 

If that is unachievable in any circumstances, contingency planning has to start for a move elsewhere at some point.

 

 

[davemclaren]

Just now, David McCaig said:

In the short term we need to do everything possible to avoid becoming landlocked.

 

Long term the goal should be how do we get to 30k whilst remaining at Tynecastle.

 

If that is unachievable in any circumstances, contingency planning has to start for a move elsewhere at some point.

 

 

I think we will likely only have one realistic ( and I’m probably stretching the term ) option of preventing being landlocked soon.  

[David McCaig]

Just now, davemclaren said:

I think we will likely only have one realistic ( and I’m probably stretching the term ) option of preventing being landlocked soon.  

Not doing everything possible to purchase the old school (assuming planning permission for student flats is refused) would be a complete dereliction of duty.

[davemclaren]

Just now, David McCaig said:

Not doing everything possible to purchase the old school (assuming planning permission for student flats is refused) would be a complete dereliction of duty.

If it’s refused I imagine the developer will come back with something revised. Something possible very much depends on what the owner would want for it.  The irony is that Hearts originally owned that land and sold it to the Edinburgh Schools Committee. We should have put a buy back option in. 😉

[David McCaig]

Just now, davemclaren said:

If it’s refused I imagine the developer will come back with something revised. Something possible very much depends on what the owner would want for it.  The irony is that Hearts originally owned that land and sold it to the Edinburgh Schools Committee. We should have put a buy back option in. 😉

If only...lol.

 

My understanding of the student flats option is that it is the contingency option and that the same barriers to normal flats also apply to student accommodation.

[davemclaren]

2 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

If only...lol.

 

My understanding of the student flats option is that it is the contingency option and that the same barriers to normal flats also apply to student accommodation.

We’ll find out soon enough I imagine. If there are significant barriers to having housing there than it should certainly lower the value of the land.  
 

I’m sure that the board are monitoring the situation closely. 

[OTT]

6 minutes ago, Hearts_fan said:

I'll never understand the enthusiasm and glee which some Hearts fans can exude when shooting down the normal, ambitious aspirations of other fans.

 

A further point, I genuinely don't think SOME (emphasise some) of the nae sayers understand how average-statistics are arrived at.

 

I'm not being funny, but it needs pointed out – a key feature of an average attendance figure is that it can never be larger than the maximum capacity of the stadium.

 

Some people seem pleased to point out that our average attendance is not say, 23,000. Yet how could it be when our capacity is 19,000.

 

The average attendance could quite well have been 23,000 or more for the past few years if we had the capacity of a 30,000 stadium.

 

 

One club I quite like looking at with we talk about capacity is Bristol City. Their city is smaller than Edinburgh and also contains a big team and wee team, they've recently renovated their stadium from 21k to 27k (development works took place 2014-16). In 13/14 before the works started their average attendance was 11.9k, its now around 20k which is a huge increase in about 8 years. They don't have the benefit of derbies or playing the largest clubs in their division twice at home which would obviously boost that average up further. Our starting point right now is 16/17k. I think we could break 20k pretty easily if we had the capacity.

 

I agree with your point about the glee some folk seem to take in shooting this thread down (but continually come back despite labelling it ridiculous and such). I don't think having a desire to see the club capitalise on its growth and aim higher is a bad thing. Consolidating 3rd is a tough ask when our resources are pretty similar to the clubs beneath us. Being able to add on another couple million per season would be huge in creating a gulf that they couldn't ordinarily close. 

[Libertarian]

18 minutes ago, Hearts_fan said:

I'll never understand the enthusiasm and glee which some Hearts fans can exude when shooting down the normal, ambitious aspirations of other fans.

 

A further point, I genuinely don't think SOME (emphasise some) of the nae sayers understand how average-statistics are arrived at.

 

I'm not being funny, but it needs pointed out – a key feature of an average attendance figure is that it can never be larger than the maximum capacity of the stadium.

 

Some people seem pleased to point out that our average attendance is not say, 23,000. Yet how could it be when our capacity is 19,000.

 

The average attendance could quite well have been 23,000 or more for the past few years if we had the capacity of a 30,000 stadium.

 

Absolutely correct.

[Allowayjambo1874]

9 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

Not doing everything possible to purchase the old school (assuming planning permission for student flats is refused) would be a complete dereliction of duty.

I think you are correct on that point, how much would it cost to buy the old school do you happen to know? 
 

The problem is that buying the land would be an investment for future development as there’s not much we can do until we have pots of money and also know what is going on with the brewery. 
 

The seethe within 6 months would be off the scale because we were ‘wasting’ money on land we couldn’t use or the pointlessness of it all if we revert back to seasons where our average attendance is back down to 15k.

 

Just goes round in circles because fans change their minds as often as the weather (including yours truly) 

[hughesie27]

Pipedream.

[The Real Maroonblood]

5 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

Pipedream.

This.

[OTT]

23 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

Pipedream.

 

Aspiring to be as big/bigger than Bristol City is a pipe dream? 

 

[hughesie27]

13 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Aspiring to be as big/bigger than Bristol City is a pipe dream? 

 

Thinking that we are anywhere near a position to further develop Tynecastle is a pipedream.

You can aspire till the cows come home of you like. It doesn't change the fact that discussing it just now is a waste of time.

[OldGorgie]

Having watched the club since early 60’s, my main concern is making sure the ground suits our average attendance. Crowds are fickle and it’s not long ago when both Hearts and Rangers had crowds of less than 10,000. Clearly that situation is quite different now but a full stadium works better than a half empty one. For what it’s worth I prefer the current setup.

[davemclaren]

1 minute ago, OldGorgie said:

Having watched the club since early 60’s, my main concern is making sure the ground suits our average attendance. Crowds are fickle and it’s not long ago when both Hearts and Rangers had crowds of less than 10,000. Clearly that situation is quite different now but a full stadium works better than a half empty one. For what it’s worth I prefer the current setup.

The pre all seated Tynecastle rocked when it had 30 or 40 thousand in it three times a season but was pretty dismal with 8,000 in it for ‘normal’ games. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

28 minutes ago, OldGorgie said:

Having watched the club since early 60’s, my main concern is making sure the ground suits our average attendance. Crowds are fickle and it’s not long ago when both Hearts and Rangers had crowds of less than 10,000. Clearly that situation is quite different now but a full stadium works better than a half empty one. For what it’s worth I prefer the current setup.

I agree.